#3 Greatest Defensive PF of All-Time - Top 10 Defense at each position project

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Re: #3 Greatest Defensive PF of All-Time - Top 10 Defense at each position project 

Post#41 » by trex_8063 » Tue Dec 11, 2018 5:19 pm

penbeast0 wrote:
cecilthesheep wrote:
...Bowen was discussed for years as someone who might have been the absolute best defender in the whole league at any position. Battier would never have been seriously mentioned on that topic. Neither would Iguodala.


Actually, I remember an SI article about Battier being the best defender in the league and talking about how he used analytics and studying tendencies to push opposing players out of their comfort zone. I don't tend to read SI for their serious analysis but if you are saying he was never seriously mentioned, it might give you some comfort.

I don't ever remember Bowen discussed as the best defender in the league either, btw, only the best perimeter defender (which was enough for me to vote for him over the other 3 defenders voted here despite the above comment).



And fwiw here is an article on DraftExpress from 2008 where they state that Shane Battier "might be the best defensive forward in the NBA", as well as "probably the most fundamentally sound defender in the game."

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Re: #3 Greatest Defensive PF of All-Time - Top 10 Defense at each position project 

Post#42 » by cecilthesheep » Tue Dec 11, 2018 5:19 pm

penbeast0 wrote:
cecilthesheep wrote:
...Bowen was discussed for years as someone who might have been the absolute best defender in the whole league at any position. Battier would never have been seriously mentioned on that topic. Neither would Iguodala.


Actually, I remember an SI article about Battier being the best defender in the league and talking about how he used analytics and studying tendencies to push opposing players out of their comfort zone. I don't tend to read SI for their serious analysis but if you are saying he was never seriously mentioned, it might give you some comfort.

I don't ever remember Bowen discussed as the best defender in the league either, btw, only the best perimeter defender (which was enough for me to vote for him over the other 3 defenders voted here despite the above comment).

Well, that does make me feel a little better; I was wrong on that point, then. Must have missed that article.
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Re: #3 Greatest Defensive PF of All-Time - Top 10 Defense at each position project 

Post#43 » by Dr Positivity » Tue Dec 11, 2018 5:47 pm

penbeast0 wrote:
cecilthesheep wrote:
...Bowen was discussed for years as someone who might have been the absolute best defender in the whole league at any position. Battier would never have been seriously mentioned on that topic. Neither would Iguodala.


Actually, I remember an SI article about Battier being the best defender in the league and talking about how he used analytics and studying tendencies to push opposing players out of their comfort zone. I don't tend to read SI for their serious analysis but if you are saying he was never seriously mentioned, it might give you some comfort.

I don't ever remember Bowen discussed as the best defender in the league either, btw, only the best perimeter defender (which was enough for me to vote for him over the other 3 defenders voted here despite the above comment).


I think the Battier thing really took off when the writer of Moneyball (Michael Lewis) wrote "the No Stats All-star" about him https://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/15/magazine/15Battier-t.html

I still have hard time with him at 5 based on the eye test with average athleticism and length, as you mentioned somewhat unphysical style. But was superb at moving players to their worst places on the court which he knew from studying the data beforehand, knowing how to affect their vision or bother their routine going up for a shot, apparently was excellent at boxing out. An excerpt from the Lewis piece

Spoiler:
As the game against the Lakers started, Morey took his seat, on the aisle, nine rows behind the Rockets’ bench. The odds, on this night, were not good. Houston was playing without its injured superstar, McGrady (who was in the clubhouse watching TV), and its injured best supporting actor, Ron Artest (cheering in street clothes from the bench). The Lakers were staffed by household names. The only Rockets player on the floor with a conspicuous shoe contract was the center Yao Ming — who opened the game by tipping the ball backward. Shane Battier began his game by grabbing it.

Before the Rockets traded for Battier, the front-office analysts obviously studied his value. They knew all sorts of details about his efficiency and his ability to reduce the efficiency of his opponents. They knew, for example, that stars guarded by Battier suddenly lose their shooting touch. What they didn’t know was why. Morey recognized Battier’s effects, but he didn’t know how he achieved them. Two hundred or so basketball games later, he’s the world’s expert on the subject — which he was studying all over again tonight. He pointed out how, instead of grabbing uncertainly for a rebound, for instance, Battier would tip the ball more certainly to a teammate. Guarding a lesser rebounder, Battier would, when the ball was in the air, leave his own man and block out the other team’s best rebounder. “Watch him,” a Houston front-office analyst told me before the game. “When the shot goes up, he’ll go sit on Gasol’s knee.” (Pau Gasol often plays center for the Lakers.) On defense, it was as if Battier had set out to maximize the misery Bryant experiences shooting a basketball, without having his presence recorded in any box score. He blocked the ball when Bryant was taking it from his waist to his chin, for instance, rather than when it was far higher and Bryant was in the act of shooting. “When you watch him,” Morey says, “you see that his whole thing is to stay in front of guys and try to block the player’s vision when he shoots. We didn’t even notice what he was doing until he got here. I wish we could say we did, but we didn’t.”

People often say that Kobe Bryant has no weaknesses to his game, but that’s not really true. Before the game, Battier was given his special package of information. “He’s the only player we give it to,” Morey says. “We can give him this fire hose of data and let him sift. Most players are like golfers. You don’t want them swinging while they’re thinking.” The data essentially broke down the floor into many discrete zones and calculated the odds of Bryant making shots from different places on the court, under different degrees of defensive pressure, in different relationships to other players — how well he scored off screens, off pick-and-rolls, off catch-and-shoots and so on. Battier learns a lot from studying the data on the superstars he is usually assigned to guard. For instance, the numbers show him that Allen Iverson is one of the most efficient scorers in the N.B.A. when he goes to his right; when he goes to his left he kills his team. The Golden State Warriors forward Stephen Jackson is an even stranger case. “Steve Jackson,” Battier says, “is statistically better going to his right, but he loves to go to his left — and goes to his left almost twice as often.” The San Antonio Spurs’ Manu Ginóbili is a statistical freak: he has no imbalance whatsoever in his game — there is no one way to play him that is better than another. He is equally efficient both off the dribble and off the pass, going left and right and from any spot on the floor.

Bryant isn’t like that. He is better at pretty much everything than everyone else, but there are places on the court, and starting points for his shot, that render him less likely to help his team. When he drives to the basket, he is exactly as likely to go to his left as to his right, but when he goes to his left, he is less effective. When he shoots directly after receiving a pass, he is more efficient than when he shoots after dribbling. He’s deadly if he gets into the lane and also if he gets to the baseline; between the two, less so. “The absolute worst thing to do,” Battier says, “is to foul him.” It isn’t that Bryant is an especially good free-throw shooter but that, as Morey puts it, “the foul is the worst result of a defensive play.” One way the Rockets can see which teams think about the game as they do is by identifying those that “try dramatically not to foul.” The ideal outcome, from the Rockets’ statistical point of view, is for Bryant to dribble left and pull up for an 18-foot jump shot; force that to happen often enough and you have to be satisfied with your night. “If he has 40 points on 40 shots, I can live with that,” Battier says. “My job is not to keep him from scoring points but to make him as inefficient as possible.” The court doesn’t have little squares all over it to tell him what percentage Bryant is likely to shoot from any given spot, but it might as well.

The reason the Rockets insist that Battier guard Bryant is his gift for encouraging him into his zones of lowest efficiency. The effect of doing this is astonishing: Bryant doesn’t merely help his team less when Battier guards him than when someone else does. When Bryant is in the game and Battier is on him, the Lakers’ offense is worse than if the N.B.A.’s best player had taken the night off. “The Lakers’ offense should obviously be better with Kobe in,” Morey says. “But if Shane is on him, it isn’t.” A player whom Morey describes as “a marginal N.B.A. athlete” not only guards one of the greatest — and smartest — offensive threats ever to play the game. He renders him a detriment to his team.

And if you knew none of this, you would never guess any of it from watching the game. Bryant was quicker than Battier, so the latter spent much of his time chasing around after him, Keystone Cops-like. Bryant shot early and often, but he looked pretty good from everywhere. On defense, Battier talked to his teammates a lot more than anyone else on the court, but from the stands it was hard to see any point to this. And yet, he swears, there’s a reason to almost all of it: when he decides where to be on the court and what angles to take, he is constantly reminding himself of the odds on the stack of papers he read through an hour earlier as his feet soaked in the whirlpool. “The numbers either refute my thinking or support my thinking,” he says, “and when there’s any question, I trust the numbers. The numbers don’t lie.” Even when the numbers agree with his intuitions, they have an effect. “It’s a subtle difference,” Morey says, “but it has big implications. If you have an intuition of something but no hard evidence to back it up, you might kind of sort of go about putting that intuition into practice, because there’s still some uncertainty if it’s right or wrong.”
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Re: #3 Greatest Defensive PF of All-Time - Top 10 Defense at each position project 

Post#44 » by SinceGatlingWasARookie » Tue Dec 11, 2018 6:26 pm

70sFan wrote:I don't want to sound biased, but how is that possible that Green has more valuable career defensively than Elvin Hayes when Big E has four times longer career and he was DPOTY-caliber player for longer than Green is in NBA.

I agree, some people are not consistent in this project. That's why I wasn't willing to participate (other than lack of time).



Why career value? I think more realgm people default to career value than they used to. Back in the 2000s I don't think longevity dominated peaks at realgm to the degree that longevity dominates peaks now. What happened? Perhaps as Kobe, Duncan, Dirk and KG got old their fans began began to favor longevity over peaks and pulled realgm culture with them.

I can't judge Hayes. If I could Judge Hayes I would be interested in 2 year peaks. I won't be inconsistent when I start voting for Draymond because I also voted for Kawhi much earlier than he got in. I am contually surprised that people don't agree with me that "greatest" means greatest at their peaks rather than meaning most years of "very goodness".

What was peak Hayes defensively? Ben Wallace, Dwight Howard?

Defensive center is the most important defensive position and that was even more true in the past when more of the offense was going through the paint. Should power forwards that could play the center roll well be considered better than power forwards that are better at pick and roll defense?
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Re: #3 Greatest Defensive PF of All-Time - Top 10 Defense at each position project 

Post#45 » by Dr Positivity » Tue Dec 11, 2018 6:33 pm

I always pictured Jermaine O'Neal as one of Hayes best comparisons but in a weaker 70s era, as they seem to be frustrating for the same reasons on offense. I guess Hayes may be better on defense. Which reminds me, please add O'Neal to the longlist, virtually all his best seasons are at PF
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Re: #3 Greatest Defensive PF of All-Time - Top 10 Defense at each position project 

Post#46 » by SinceGatlingWasARookie » Tue Dec 11, 2018 6:56 pm

Dr Positivity wrote:
penbeast0 wrote:
cecilthesheep wrote:
...Bowen was discussed for years as someone who might have been the absolute best defender in the whole league at any position. Battier would never have been seriously mentioned on that topic. Neither would Iguodala.


Actually, I remember an SI article about Battier being the best defender in the league and talking about how he used analytics and studying tendencies to push opposing players out of their comfort zone. I don't tend to read SI for their serious analysis but if you are saying he was never seriously mentioned, it might give you some comfort.

I don't ever remember Bowen discussed as the best defender in the league either, btw, only the best perimeter defender (which was enough for me to vote for him over the other 3 defenders voted here despite the above comment).


I think the Battier thing really took off when the writer of Moneyball (Michael Lewis) wrote "the No Stats All-star" about him https://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/15/magazine/15Battier-t.html

I still have hard time with him at 5 based on the eye test with average athleticism and length, as you mentioned somewhat unphysical style. But was superb at moving players to their worst places on the court which he knew from studying the data beforehand, knowing how to affect their vision or bother their routine going up for a shot, apparently was excellent at boxing out. An excerpt from the Lewis piece

Spoiler:
As the game against the Lakers started, Morey took his seat, on the aisle, nine rows behind the Rockets’ bench. The odds, on this night, were not good. Houston was playing without its injured superstar, McGrady (who was in the clubhouse watching TV), and its injured best supporting actor, Ron Artest (cheering in street clothes from the bench). The Lakers were staffed by household names. The only Rockets player on the floor with a conspicuous shoe contract was the center Yao Ming — who opened the game by tipping the ball backward. Shane Battier began his game by grabbing it.

Before the Rockets traded for Battier, the front-office analysts obviously studied his value. They knew all sorts of details about his efficiency and his ability to reduce the efficiency of his opponents. They knew, for example, that stars guarded by Battier suddenly lose their shooting touch. What they didn’t know was why. Morey recognized Battier’s effects, but he didn’t know how he achieved them. Two hundred or so basketball games later, he’s the world’s expert on the subject — which he was studying all over again tonight. He pointed out how, instead of grabbing uncertainly for a rebound, for instance, Battier would tip the ball more certainly to a teammate. Guarding a lesser rebounder, Battier would, when the ball was in the air, leave his own man and block out the other team’s best rebounder. “Watch him,” a Houston front-office analyst told me before the game. “When the shot goes up, he’ll go sit on Gasol’s knee.” (Pau Gasol often plays center for the Lakers.) On defense, it was as if Battier had set out to maximize the misery Bryant experiences shooting a basketball, without having his presence recorded in any box score. He blocked the ball when Bryant was taking it from his waist to his chin, for instance, rather than when it was far higher and Bryant was in the act of shooting. “When you watch him,” Morey says, “you see that his whole thing is to stay in front of guys and try to block the player’s vision when he shoots. We didn’t even notice what he was doing until he got here. I wish we could say we did, but we didn’t.”

People often say that Kobe Bryant has no weaknesses to his game, but that’s not really true. Before the game, Battier was given his special package of information. “He’s the only player we give it to,” Morey says. “We can give him this fire hose of data and let him sift. Most players are like golfers. You don’t want them swinging while they’re thinking.” The data essentially broke down the floor into many discrete zones and calculated the odds of Bryant making shots from different places on the court, under different degrees of defensive pressure, in different relationships to other players — how well he scored off screens, off pick-and-rolls, off catch-and-shoots and so on. Battier learns a lot from studying the data on the superstars he is usually assigned to guard. For instance, the numbers show him that Allen Iverson is one of the most efficient scorers in the N.B.A. when he goes to his right; when he goes to his left he kills his team. The Golden State Warriors forward Stephen Jackson is an even stranger case. “Steve Jackson,” Battier says, “is statistically better going to his right, but he loves to go to his left — and goes to his left almost twice as often.” The San Antonio Spurs’ Manu Ginóbili is a statistical freak: he has no imbalance whatsoever in his game — there is no one way to play him that is better than another. He is equally efficient both off the dribble and off the pass, going left and right and from any spot on the floor.

Bryant isn’t like that. He is better at pretty much everything than everyone else, but there are places on the court, and starting points for his shot, that render him less likely to help his team. When he drives to the basket, he is exactly as likely to go to his left as to his right, but when he goes to his left, he is less effective. When he shoots directly after receiving a pass, he is more efficient than when he shoots after dribbling. He’s deadly if he gets into the lane and also if he gets to the baseline; between the two, less so. “The absolute worst thing to do,” Battier says, “is to foul him.” It isn’t that Bryant is an especially good free-throw shooter but that, as Morey puts it, “the foul is the worst result of a defensive play.” One way the Rockets can see which teams think about the game as they do is by identifying those that “try dramatically not to foul.” The ideal outcome, from the Rockets’ statistical point of view, is for Bryant to dribble left and pull up for an 18-foot jump shot; force that to happen often enough and you have to be satisfied with your night. “If he has 40 points on 40 shots, I can live with that,” Battier says. “My job is not to keep him from scoring points but to make him as inefficient as possible.” The court doesn’t have little squares all over it to tell him what percentage Bryant is likely to shoot from any given spot, but it might as well.

The reason the Rockets insist that Battier guard Bryant is his gift for encouraging him into his zones of lowest efficiency. The effect of doing this is astonishing: Bryant doesn’t merely help his team less when Battier guards him than when someone else does. When Bryant is in the game and Battier is on him, the Lakers’ offense is worse than if the N.B.A.’s best player had taken the night off. “The Lakers’ offense should obviously be better with Kobe in,” Morey says. “But if Shane is on him, it isn’t.” A player whom Morey describes as “a marginal N.B.A. athlete” not only guards one of the greatest — and smartest — offensive threats ever to play the game. He renders him a detriment to his team.

And if you knew none of this, you would never guess any of it from watching the game. Bryant was quicker than Battier, so the latter spent much of his time chasing around after him, Keystone Cops-like. Bryant shot early and often, but he looked pretty good from everywhere. On defense, Battier talked to his teammates a lot more than anyone else on the court, but from the stands it was hard to see any point to this. And yet, he swears, there’s a reason to almost all of it: when he decides where to be on the court and what angles to take, he is constantly reminding himself of the odds on the stack of papers he read through an hour earlier as his feet soaked in the whirlpool. “The numbers either refute my thinking or support my thinking,” he says, “and when there’s any question, I trust the numbers. The numbers don’t lie.” Even when the numbers agree with his intuitions, they have an effect. “It’s a subtle difference,” Morey says, “but it has big implications. If you have an intuition of something but no hard evidence to back it up, you might kind of sort of go about putting that intuition into practice, because there’s still some uncertainty if it’s right or wrong.”


Nice article. The point being that there are things we can't see. That's a vote in favor of plus minus stats and a vote against eye test and box score stats.

Zara is a guy that might be better than he looks simply by clogging the right spaces on the floor. He won't be blocking the shot or doing anything that looks good but he might still be doing something useful.
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Re: #3 Greatest Defensive PF of All-Time - Top 10 Defense at each position project 

Post#47 » by Owly » Tue Dec 11, 2018 7:51 pm

SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote:
70sFan wrote:I don't want to sound biased, but how is that possible that Green has more valuable career defensively than Elvin Hayes when Big E has four times longer career and he was DPOTY-caliber player for longer than Green is in NBA.

I agree, some people are not consistent in this project. That's why I wasn't willing to participate (other than lack of time).



Why career value? I think more realgm people default to career value than they used to. Back in the 2000s I don't think longevity dominated peaks at realgm to the degree that longevity dominates peaks now. What happened? Perhaps as Kobe, Duncan, Dirk and KG got old their fans began began to favor longevity over peaks and pulled realgm culture with them.

I can't judge Hayes. If I could Judge Hayes I would be interested in 2 year peaks. I won't be inconsistent when I start voting for Draymond because I also voted for Kawhi much earlier than he got in. I am contually surprised that people don't agree with me that "greatest" means greatest at their peaks rather than meaning most years of "very goodness".

What was peak Hayes defensively? Ben Wallace, Dwight Howard?

Defensive center is the most important defensive position and that was even more true in the past when more of the offense was going through the paint. Should power forwards that could play the center roll well be considered better than power forwards that are better at pick and roll defense?

I think you've either misunderstood or else misstated how people rate players based on careers. I know of no one who simply counts the number of good years. It's not a matter of raw longevity.

The discussion around careers, to my mind, always has been around longevity of quality and career value/championship odds (which might grow disproportionately for elite peaks), never counting the number of years above a specific threshold.

Regarding greatest, given it's dual usage for goodness and most large, it would seem more surprising to me when discussing a player to be talking about the entirety of that player in terms of discussing their greatness, and that if excluding large swathes of their career, that that is the time a qualifier is needed (i.e. "peak"). Of course it will depend on the context with which you are most familiar with the term, if people are talking in terms of "greats" as players who retrospectively transpired to be significant to the historical narrative, that doesn't require a substantial career so much as being very good in the right place at the right time.
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Re: #3 Greatest Defensive PF of All-Time - Top 10 Defense at each position project 

Post#48 » by Gibson22 » Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:16 pm

Spoiler:
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Re: #3 Greatest Defensive PF of All-Time - Top 10 Defense at each position project 

Post#49 » by Gibson22 » Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:20 pm

Bobby Jones 5
Rodman 4
Draymond 3
Hayes 2
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Re: #3 Greatest Defensive PF of All-Time - Top 10 Defense at each position project 

Post#50 » by Sixersftw » Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:25 pm

Vote Bobby Jones.
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Re: #3 Greatest Defensive PF of All-Time - Top 10 Defense at each position project 

Post#51 » by kendogg » Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:36 pm

Bobby Jones or Draymond at #3 all time lol. They aren't even the 3rd best player on the teams they were on.
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Re: #3 Greatest Defensive PF of All-Time - Top 10 Defense at each position project 

Post#52 » by iggymcfrack » Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:50 pm

kendogg wrote:Bobby Jones or Draymond at #3 all time lol. They aren't even the 3rd best player on the teams they were on.


You realize this is just for defense right? Draymond was certainly the best defender on the Warriors every year since he started getting regular minutes. And LOL @ thinking Klay was ever better than him too.
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Re: #3 Greatest Defensive PF of All-Time - Top 10 Defense at each position project 

Post#53 » by Luigi » Tue Dec 11, 2018 9:00 pm

Please remove me from list
In '03-'04, Jerry Sloan coached the ESPN predicted "worst team of all time" to 42-40.
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Re: #3 Greatest Defensive PF of All-Time - Top 10 Defense at each position project 

Post#55 » by cecilthesheep » Tue Dec 11, 2018 9:06 pm

kendogg wrote:Bobby Jones or Draymond at #3 all time lol. They aren't even the 3rd best player on the teams they were on.

Who exactly have the first and second best defenders on the Warriors been, then?
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Re: #3 Greatest Defensive PF of All-Time - Top 10 Defense at each position project 

Post#56 » by Owly » Tue Dec 11, 2018 9:13 pm

kendogg wrote:Bobby Jones or Draymond at #3 all time lol. They aren't even the 3rd best player on the teams they were on.

That's simultaneously:
1) A non-sequitur - as where they ranked as overall players doesn't matter to how they ranked specifically.
2) Clumsily phrased - When? Which year? Which set of years? How does one compare players whose spans overlapped but one spent longer there and one played earlier and the other later?
3) Largely untrue - Draymond has demonstrated an enormous impact and has clearly been better and more important than Thompson for most of their run together and had such strong impact numbers some were arguing him as comparable to Curry in 2016. The Warriors lack of necessity to compete in the RS has made it harder to rank them more recently but through 2017 Green was showing very big impact.
Then for Jones he has what I believe are some impressive impact metrics too as well as spectacular defensive boxscore production. At best I can see cases for 3 guys ahead ahead of him in '83 (Malone, Erving, Cheeks) generally though Erving's impact numbers tend to be worse than his, and Cheek's boxscore probably a little worse so depending on how you weigh those factors, more generally for the 76ers it's hard to put him outside the top 3, and he's plausibly higher than 3rd. And given his performance on the Nuggets as a rookie, that Issel didn't play defense, Thompson's inconsistency and Jones's combination of boxscore production and impact numbers it's plausible he's their best player and outside the top 3 is asinine.

If you have relevant comments on their merits versus the field please add them but please do try to at least address the topic at hand.
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Re: #3 Greatest Defensive PF of All-Time - Top 10 Defense at each position project 

Post#57 » by SkyHookFTW » Tue Dec 11, 2018 9:41 pm

kendogg wrote:Bobby Jones or Draymond at #3 all time lol. They aren't even the 3rd best player on the teams they were on.

Been watching basketball since 1965. Yeah, Bobby Jones at #3.
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Re: #3 Greatest Defensive PF of All-Time - Top 10 Defense at each position project 

Post#58 » by Johnny Firpo » Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:15 pm

Bobby Jones!
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Re: #3 Greatest Defensive PF of All-Time - Top 10 Defense at each position project 

Post#59 » by Gibson22 » Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:46 pm

kendogg wrote:Bobby Jones or Draymond at #3 all time lol. They aren't even the 3rd best player on the teams they were on.



The problem would be that too many great players are in those rankings because they are more recognized, not the opposite
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Re: #3 Greatest Defensive PF of All-Time - Top 10 Defense at each position project 

Post#60 » by trex_8063 » Wed Dec 12, 2018 4:49 am

OK, we're about 52 hours on this thread, I think we can call it for Bobby Jones (he's up by two or three on 2nd place).
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