#19 - GOAT peaks project (2019)

[E-Balla]

I chose 05 Nash because of his playoffs: Vs Dallas and San Antonio he was unbelievable. Box score based metrics are not generous with Steve, but non boxe score (box creation, adjusted plus minus, passer rating, Pipm) are very good, better than Kobe. Bryant was the best overall player, better career, but peak Nash in my opinion is better, one of the best 5 or 6 offensive player of all time.

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Box creation and passer rating aren't measurements of goodness. They're just a measurement of how many offensive baskets you create and passer rating is a measurement of how good of a passer you are.

Kobe has the higher APM IIRC and I haven't seen PIPM back to the 2000s. You have a link for that?

And if Kobe is a better overall player, why are you voting Nash here? I'm kind of lost here. Are you saying he's better but Nash had a better season than Kobe has?

[HHera187]

I chose 05 Nash because of his playoffs: Vs Dallas and San Antonio he was unbelievable. Box score based metrics are not generous with Steve, but non boxe score (box creation, adjusted plus minus, passer rating, Pipm) are very good, better than Kobe. Bryant was the best overall player, better career, but peak Nash in my opinion is better, one of the best 5 or 6 offensive player of all time.

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Box creation and passer rating aren't measurements of goodness. They're just a measurement of how many offensive baskets you create and passer rating is a measurement of how good of a passer you are.

Kobe has the higher APM IIRC and I haven't seen PIPM back to the 2000s. You have a link for that?

And if Kobe is a better overall player, why are you voting Nash here? I'm kind of lost here. Are you saying he's better but Nash had a better season than Kobe has?

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I am a subscriber on BBall Index, so I can see all PIPM data (after 2001 is OK with play by play). Can I post an Image?

BOX Creation is an estimate of open shots created per 100, is very very good for measure offense contribution. His Backpicks BPM was amazing too in 2005

[E-Balla]

I chose 05 Nash because of his playoffs: Vs Dallas and San Antonio he was unbelievable. Box score based metrics are not generous with Steve, but non boxe score (box creation, adjusted plus minus, passer rating, Pipm) are very good, better than Kobe. Bryant was the best overall player, better career, but peak Nash in my opinion is better, one of the best 5 or 6 offensive player of all time.

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Box creation and passer rating aren't measurements of goodness. They're just a measurement of how many offensive baskets you create and passer rating is a measurement of how good of a passer you are.

Kobe has the higher APM IIRC and I haven't seen PIPM back to the 2000s. You have a link for that?

And if Kobe is a better overall player, why are you voting Nash here? I'm kind of lost here. Are you saying he's better but Nash had a better season than Kobe has?

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I am a subscriber on BBall Index, so I can see all PIPM data (after 2001 is OK with play by play). Can I post an Image?

BOX Creation is an estimate of open shots created per 100, is very very good for measure offense contribution. His Backpicks BPM was amazing too in 2005

An image would be great! Thanks.

And box creation is great for offense, but I think most here agree Nash is better offensively. The defensive gap more than makes up for that I think.

[HHera187]

I try to post an image but I have a "sorry you don't have permission to upload attachment". Why?

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[HHera187]

Anyway, we're talking about guards, how can defense be a discriminating?
Ps- sorry for my English I'm Italian.

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[E-Balla]

I try to post an image but I have a "sorry you don't have permission to upload attachment". Why?

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You can't attach it. You have to put it somewhere like imgur and hyperlink it using the [img] tag.

Anyway, we're talking about guards, how can defense be a discriminating?
Ps- sorry for my English I'm Italian.

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Defense still matters does it not? If Nash gives a team 7 more points than average, and Kobe 6, but Nash loses a point on defense and Kobe gains a point, Kobe is better.

Just because Kobe can't be as impactful as Bill Russell and Nash can't hurt a team as much as Amar'e doesn't mean Kobe can't still have a large defensive impact and Nash a large negative defensive impact.

Nash ranks bottom 100 in DRAPM in the playoffs right by Dirk. Dirk has a huge negative reputation and is a big, and Nash manages to look as bad as him statistically on that end.

And your English isn't bad at all man.

[GeorgeMarcus]

Hallelujah- D Rob finally made it! If he fell out of the top 20 I may have permanently shunned the PC board (despite generally having a high opinion of it).

I think I'd go 83 Moses, 11 Dirk, and 93 Barkley in that order. I don't have arguments to offer at this time but that may change before the vote is tallied.

My hope is that when this is done again in like five years the regular season nostalgia will have worn off even more and we will be better able to acknowledge he is not the type of playoff performer worth a top twenty (maybe even top twenty-five) peak spot.

You are overstating his playoff decline- big time- if you feel that way.

[LA Bird]

People should consider [Nash's] impact was way less than his box score numbers suggest.

This is an odd claim considering Nash's impact numbers are way better than the box score approximations. Nash is the single most underrated offensive player by OBPM in the 14 year RAPM dataset used to create BPM and his overall RAPM (+6.0) is far higher than his BPM (+1.6).

https://public.tableau.com/profile/dsmok1#!/vizhome/BPMvs_RAPM/BoxPlusMinusvs_14YearRAPM

Also, Nash looked incredible in WOWY, another non box score metric, whereas his other all in one box score metrics (PER, WS) wasn't amazing. If anything, Nash's impact is underrated by box scores, not overrated.

I looked up playoff RAPM (98-19).

Do you have a link for this playoffs only RAPM dataset? I have seen one for 2014-18 but not 1998-19.

[liamliam1234]

Let me know if this works:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vQdG8Zv84zqKEzETDjd8KPsClcw9bPETX9v_x_KEAxjv9NrFaWikOoiSaciy1jbMiygg2D-V8DUQn0O/pubhtml?gid=112475182&single=true

[Odinn21]

People should consider [Nash's] impact was way less than his box score numbers suggest.

This is an odd claim considering Nash's impact numbers are way better than the box score approximations. Nash is the single most underrated offensive player by OBPM in the 14 year RAPM dataset used to create BPM and his overall RAPM (+6.0) is far higher than his BPM (+1.6).

https://public.tableau.com/profile/dsmok1#!/vizhome/BPMvs_RAPM/BoxPlusMinusvs_14YearRAPM

Also, Nash looked incredible in WOWY, another non box score metric, whereas his other all in one box score metrics (PER, WS) wasn't amazing. If anything, Nash's impact is underrated by box scores, not overrated.

I said that because while box score numbers are relative to capturing offensive impact, they are not good about defensive impact. And Nash was literally a defensive liability.

I agree with E-Balla mostly in the thread;

So I think Nash's badness was overblown by the masses before, and is now being undersold by analytic loving people. Chicago had amazing defenses with both Rose and Boozer in the starting 5 getting a lot of minutes. Houston had a great defense in 2018 with Harden on the floor. That doesn't mean they're not terrible still or not still a net negative. In this case being a negative is relevant because Kidd was a high impact defender and Kobe is a positive defender in many of his seasons.
- - -
Defense still matters does it not? If Nash gives a team 7 more points than average, and Kobe 6, but Nash loses a point on defense and Kobe gains a point, Kobe is better.

Just because Kobe can't be as impactful as Bill Russell and Nash can't hurt a team as much as Amar'e doesn't mean Kobe can't still have a large defensive impact and Nash a large negative defensive impact.

Nash ranks bottom 100 in DRAPM in the playoffs right by Dirk. Dirk has a huge negative reputation and is a big, and Nash manages to look as bad as him statistically on that end.

[No-more-rings]

This is Kobe’s chance to get in and Ardee isn’t here lol, at least I don’t think he voted.

[E-Balla]

This is Kobe’s chance to get in and Ardee isn’t here lol, at least I don’t think he voted.

It's looking like Moses' time to reign baby!

[LA Bird]

Spoiler:

People should consider [Nash's] impact was way less than his box score numbers suggest.

This is an odd claim considering Nash's impact numbers are way better than the box score approximations. Nash is the single most underrated offensive player by OBPM in the 14 year RAPM dataset used to create BPM and his overall RAPM (+6.0) is far higher than his BPM (+1.6).

https://public.tableau.com/profile/dsmok1#!/vizhome/BPMvs_RAPM/BoxPlusMinusvs_14YearRAPM

Also, Nash looked incredible in WOWY, another non box score metric, whereas his other all in one box score metrics (PER, WS) wasn't amazing. If anything, Nash's impact is underrated by box scores, not overrated.

I said that because while box score numbers are relative to capturing offensive impact, they are not good about defensive impact. And Nash was literally a defensive liability.

Box scores aren't great at capturing defensive impact and often underrate excellent defenders who don't have huge steal/block numbers. I don't think the inverse, that they overrate the poor defense of players who don't get many steal/blocks in the first place, is necessarily true though. In the tableau link, you will actually find that Nash's DBPM (-2.0) is worse than his DRAPM (-0.6). Nash was always a negative on defense but at his peak, he was probably closer to a -1 than the -3 or so that his defensive reputation would suggest.

I agree with E-Balla mostly in the thread;

Spoiler:

So I think Nash's badness was overblown by the masses before, and is now being undersold by analytic loving people. Chicago had amazing defenses with both Rose and Boozer in the starting 5 getting a lot of minutes. Houston had a great defense in 2018 with Harden on the floor. That doesn't mean they're not terrible still or not still a net negative. In this case being a negative is relevant because Kidd was a high impact defender and Kobe is a positive defender in many of his seasons.
- - -
Defense still matters does it not? If Nash gives a team 7 more points than average, and Kobe 6, but Nash loses a point on defense and Kobe gains a point, Kobe is better.

Just because Kobe can't be as impactful as Bill Russell and Nash can't hurt a team as much as Amar'e doesn't mean Kobe can't still have a large defensive impact and Nash a large negative defensive impact.

Nash ranks bottom 100 in DRAPM in the playoffs right by Dirk. Dirk has a huge negative reputation and is a big, and Nash manages to look as bad as him statistically on that end.

Also agree here.

[No-more-rings]

Anyway, we're talking about guards, how can defense be a discriminating?
Ps- sorry for my English I'm Italian.

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Detrimental?

Because a guard can still give up points, I don’t know why people are having trouble seeing that.

[HBK_Kliq_33]

Is this ranking purely just regular season? Robinson's 22 PER and 53% TS is really better than 2017 Leonard?

Leonard should at the very least be in KG's spot and KG should be in Robinson's spot. Some bias going around here, oh well to each its own. Bump this list in 7 years when Kawhi is a top 5 GOAT and it will look rather silly, I'm just warning you guys.

[cecilthesheep]

I do think it deserves a bigger mention that Kobe's defensive and offensive peaks did not coincide, and he was actually fairly mediocre on defense during most of the years we're talking about as his best ones. With that in mind I'm starting to think a little more carefully about him vs Nash in general.

[DatAsh]

And he has a tendency to focus too much on impact over overall production.

How do you know this is true? Isn’t it equally likely that you focus too much on overall production and not enough on impact?

[No-more-rings]

Is this ranking purely just regular season? Robinson's 22 PER and 53% TS is really better than 2017 Leonard?

Leonard should at the very least be in KG's spot and KG should be in Robinson's spot. Some bias going around here, oh well to each its own. Bump this list in 7 years when Kawhi is a top 5 GOAT and it will look rather silly, I'm just warning you guys.

Don’t discredit the entire project just because you have some weird love thing for Leonard.

And yes regular season definitely matters to people here, and then defense which no matter how you wanna slice it Kawhi isn’t as good on that end.

[DatAsh]

Is this ranking purely just regular season? Robinson's 22 PER and 53% TS is really better than 2017 Leonard?

Leonard should at the very least be in KG's spot and KG should be in Robinson's spot. Some bias going around here, oh well to each its own. Bump this list in 7 years when Kawhi is a top 5 GOAT and it will look rather silly, I'm just warning you guys.

You think Leonard peaked higher than KG?

Overall offense is probably close(KG better playmaker, Leonard is a much better scorer), very small edge to Kawhi imo, but KG is worlds above 2019 Kawhi as a defender.

I do think Kawhi’s peak is interesting, and I’ll be interested to see where he falls. I persnally have several guys above them that are still on the board.

[HBK_Kliq_33]

Is this ranking purely just regular season? Robinson's 22 PER and 53% TS is really better than 2017 Leonard?

Leonard should at the very least be in KG's spot and KG should be in Robinson's spot. Some bias going around here, oh well to each its own. Bump this list in 7 years when Kawhi is a top 5 GOAT and it will look rather silly, I'm just warning you guys.

Don’t discredit the entire project just because you have some weird love thing for Leonard.

And yes regular season definitely matters to people here, and then defense which no matter how you wanna slice it Kawhi isn’t as good on that end.

But Jerry West gets in? He's not better than Leonard on defense not a chance.