1995 Hakeem Olajuwon vs 2012 LeBron James.

[G35]

vs Utah Stockton/Malone
vs Barkley/KJ
vs Robinson

Finals vs Shaq/Penny

Lebron's 2012 run

vs Knicks Carmelo and Lin or JR Smith
vs Pacers George and Hibbert
vs Celtics over the hill KG/Pierce/Allen

Finals vs KD/WB/Harden

The finals is the only team that had elite HoF level talent vs the Heat. Conference disparity is handwaved far too often......

Calling the Celtics over the hill haha, I expected nothing less.

The Celtics were over the hill in 2010.

So I pretty much didn't read whatever you wrote after this since, we disagree fundamentally about that team.


Btw ages of those Celtics in 2012

Garnett - 35yo, 16 years in the league
Pierce - 34 yo, 13 years
Allen - 36 yo, 15 years
J'Oneal - 33 yo, 15 years

Of their top 8 players in MPG, only Rondo, Bass, and Pietrus were under 30, only Rondo was under 25. You can throw in Avery Bradley who was getting 21 MPG and was 21 yo.

Proof that team was done, the following year they won 41 games and lost in the 1st round. That team was done.....

[liamliam1234]

All I did is critique Lebron’s clutch/midrange game, and you guys got offended. Thats too funny.

Once again, this is a huge waste of time. You guys have pretty much killed the thread with a defensive mentality to both a valid and I would think, obvious point. I’m not replying to these particular posters in this thread, so feel free to have your last say. But I prefer talking basketball and not drama with those that are easily offended.

“I want to be able to push any bull* narrative I want to ostensibly advance Michael Jordan, and how dare anyone call me out for that perpetual behaviour.”

You are HBK with an extra level of coherence, and accordingly you would rather see everyone else as the problem.

* (Heh, works on two levels.)

[Odinn21]

vs Utah Stockton/Malone
vs Barkley/KJ
vs Robinson

Finals vs Shaq/Penny

Lebron's 2012 run

vs Knicks Carmelo and Lin or JR Smith
vs Pacers George and Hibbert
vs Celtics over the hill KG/Pierce/Allen

Finals vs KD/WB/Harden

The finals is the only team that had elite HoF level talent vs the Heat. Conference disparity is handwaved far too often......

Calling the Celtics over the hill haha, I expected nothing less.

It is funny how we judge a players' playoff performance by their offensive stats more often than not, and then use an overall team's strength as a barometer for how tough the competition is. The logical flaw is obvious, but in order to make LeBron's competition look worse, I suppose it is ignored? Instead of some superficial listing of names (which you couldn't even bother getting right), I think it would help more to look at the defenses they faced. I'll include LeBron's and Hakeem's teams' respective ORTGs too, relative to opponent RS DRTG.

1995 Hakeem:
vs -2.6 Jazz: +14.9
vs +2.1 Suns (the second worst defense to make the playoffs): +5.5
vs -2.9 Spurs: +5.2
vs -0.5 Magic: +9.3

2012 LeBron:
vs -3.6 Knicks: +11.9
vs -1.5 Pacers: +3.5
vs -6.4 Celtics: +10.7
vs -1.4 Thunder: +11.9

Weighted Average
Hakeem: vs -0.8 DRTG and +8.2 offense
LeBron: vs -3.4 DRTG and +9.3 offense

Box Stats
Hakeem: 30.5 points, 4.1 assists per 75, +1.7% rTS, 26.7 PER, .143 WS/48, 110 ORTG (+1.7)
LeBron: 29 points, 5.4 assists per 75, +4.9% rTS, 30.3 PER, .284 WS/48, 116 ORTG (+11.4)

So at the very least, LeBron was facing tougher defenses, and his box score stats come out prettier. Coincidentally he faced a better defensive team in each respective round than Hakeem as well. I don't think looking at the whole team's performance is perfect, but it does support my belief that perimeter players are better offensive players and leads in general. And when you look at their teammates, I think Hakeem had a better cast tbh. Drexler was amazing, all the guards shot the lights out, and it was a pretty deep team (reflected in the well distributed WS). Credit should of course be given to Hakeem for drawing all that attention and finding his guys, his passing was at his best this year I'd say...and yet they still come short of LeBron's team. Not to mention LeBron was drawing similar attention, had a number 2 option who didn't really shoot too well, and had Bosh missing 9 total games (crazy that they had a +10.7 offense on the number one defense with only 3 games of Bosh).

Now what made Hakeem's opponents better competition was that those teams were all good offensively as well. The same cannot be said for the 2012 competition. And ironically, Hakeem's relatively poor play in the RS that cost them HCA is turned into a boost in this comparison.

Hakeem would need to catch up on defense, and I think he does a pretty good job at doing that (even though this was imo one of LeBron's better defensive postseasons); the comparison is very close. But if you're someone who is looking at LeBron's ppg and apg and whatever as a measure of his performance, and then talking about conference disparity without looking at the defenses that each guy faced, you're doing it wrong.

This post is so great and important. Cheers.
And for me, the bolded part is the most important one. I'm aware of saying 'only playoffs' would mean eliminating the regular season but when we do that, we also put some trust into regular season performances being relatively close. When I say 2000 Shaq vs. 2012 LeBron playoffs only, it would make sense because none of the options put themselves at a disadvantaged position. Why would we be rewarding Hakeem for putting himself in a tougher position?..

[Bidofo]

vs Utah Stockton/Malone
vs Barkley/KJ
vs Robinson

Finals vs Shaq/Penny

Lebron's 2012 run

vs Knicks Carmelo and Lin or JR Smith
vs Pacers George and Hibbert
vs Celtics over the hill KG/Pierce/Allen

Finals vs KD/WB/Harden

The finals is the only team that had elite HoF level talent vs the Heat. Conference disparity is handwaved far too often......

Calling the Celtics over the hill haha, I expected nothing less.

It is funny how we judge a players' playoff performance by their offensive stats more often than not, and then use an overall team's strength as a barometer for how tough the competition is. The logical flaw is obvious, but in order to make LeBron's competition look worse, I suppose it is ignored? Instead of some superficial listing of names (which you couldn't even bother getting right), I think it would help more to look at the defenses they faced. I'll include LeBron's and Hakeem's teams' respective ORTGs too, relative to opponent RS DRTG.

1995 Hakeem:
vs -2.6 Jazz: +14.9
vs +2.1 Suns (the second worst defense to make the playoffs): +5.5
vs -2.9 Spurs: +5.2
vs -0.5 Magic: +9.3

2012 LeBron:
vs -3.6 Knicks: +11.9
vs -1.5 Pacers: +3.5
vs -6.4 Celtics: +10.7
vs -1.4 Thunder: +11.9

Weighted Average
Hakeem: vs -0.8 DRTG and +8.2 offense
LeBron: vs -3.4 DRTG and +9.3 offense

Box Stats
Hakeem: 30.5 points, 4.1 assists per 75, +1.7% rTS, 26.7 PER, .143 WS/48, 110 ORTG (+1.7)
LeBron: 29 points, 5.4 assists per 75, +4.9% rTS, 30.3 PER, .284 WS/48, 116 ORTG (+11.4)

So at the very least, LeBron was facing tougher defenses, and his box score stats come out prettier. Coincidentally he faced a better defensive team in each respective round than Hakeem as well. I don't think looking at the whole team's performance is perfect, but it does support my belief that perimeter players are better offensive players and leads in general. And when you look at their teammates, I think Hakeem had a better cast tbh. Drexler was amazing, all the guards shot the lights out, and it was a pretty deep team (reflected in the well distributed WS). Credit should of course be given to Hakeem for drawing all that attention and finding his guys, his passing was at his best this year I'd say...and yet they still come short of LeBron's team. Not to mention LeBron was drawing similar attention, had a number 2 option who didn't really shoot too well, and had Bosh missing 9 total games (crazy that they had a +10.7 offense on the number one defense with only 3 games of Bosh).

Now what made Hakeem's opponents better competition was that those teams were all good offensively as well. The same cannot be said for the 2012 competition. And ironically, Hakeem's relatively poor play in the RS that cost them HCA is turned into a boost in this comparison.

Hakeem would need to catch up on defense, and I think he does a pretty good job at doing that (even though this was imo one of LeBron's better defensive postseasons); the comparison is very close. But if you're someone who is looking at LeBron's ppg and apg and whatever as a measure of his performance, and then talking about conference disparity without looking at the defenses that each guy faced, you're doing it wrong.

This post is so great and important. Cheers.
And for me, the bolded part is the most important one. I'm aware of saying 'only playoffs' would mean eliminating the regular season but when we do that, we also put some trust into regular season performances being relatively close. When I say 2000 Shaq vs. 2012 LeBron playoffs only, it would make sense because none of the options put themselves at a disadvantaged position. Why would we be rewarding Hakeem for putting himself in a tougher position?..

I appreciate it. And can you believe this is the response I got:

The Celtics were over the hill in 2010.

So I pretty much didn't read whatever you wrote after this since, we disagree fundamentally about that team.

It's appalling that anyone who takes themselves seriously would have the gall to say something like this. Being ignorant is fun!

It's not like my entire post was revolved around that Celtics team, you could have definitely taken much more from it if you actually read, but oh well.

Btw ages of those Celtics in 2012

Garnett - 35yo, 16 years in the league
Pierce - 34 yo, 13 years
Allen - 36 yo, 15 years
J'Oneal - 33 yo, 15 years

Of their top 8 players in MPG, only Rondo, Bass, and Pietrus were under 30, only Rondo was under 25. You can throw in Avery Bradley who was getting 21 MPG and was 21 yo.

You're proving my point here. I know that that Celtics team was old. I know that they weren't good offensively. But again, none of that has anything to do with the fact that they were the number 1 defense. Those geezers you named were all great defenders even at their old age (or is Jordan the only one capable of being a good defender at old age?), save for Allen, who was still good. They had a great scheme with Doc, and let's not forget that Thibodeau developed his defensive concepts in Boston way back in 08. They were a great (GOAT) defensive team then, a great defensive team in 2010 (despite injury), and a great defensive team in 2012. Not to mention they were coasting throughout the season too. So to say they weren't competition because of age is a silly argument. It's not like they were in wheelchairs and needed timeouts every 5 minutes for crying out loud, that was a good team.

Proof that team was done, the following year they won 41 games and lost in the 1st round. That team was done.....

This is hardly proof of anything. How they performed the next year has nothing to do with their number 1 defense the year prior. It was obvious they took coasting way too hard in 2013, and so regressed too much defensively. Rondo also missed a lot of games, KG missed 14, Allen left for the Heat, etc.

[Bidofo]

All I did is critique Lebron’s clutch/midrange game, and you guys got offended. Thats too funny.

Don't paint yourself as the innocent one now. At this point you're probably hardwired to take even the slightest digs at LeBron wherever you can, but the reason people are inflamed about this one is because it serves no relevance. You're making a claim about him and using "evidence" that's not even from the (post)season in question! It's like you saw LeBron's name, ignored the specified year of 2012, and decided to say your mumbo jumbo anyway. What does LeBron's midrange game have anything to do with his 2012 playoffs!?!? Did he not still dominate? Did he not win close games in the Finals too? You wanna talk about his 2013 finals (which he won btw), go ahead. You wanna talk about his poor shooting at the beginning of the 2016 season (lol at the fact that you kept the article from December saved somewhere), go ahead. But at least do it in threads where it's relevant because right now, like most of your other arguments, it's coming off as quite incoherent.

Once again, this is a huge waste of time. You guys have pretty much killed the thread with a defensive mentality to both a valid and I would think, obvious point. I’m not replying to these particular posters in this thread, so feel free to have your last say. But I prefer talking basketball and not drama with those that are easily offended.

Leave the thread while your argument is running out of legs to stand on, yes. You clearly don't want to talk basketball considering all those times I've made detailed posts refuting your claims, only to not get a response back. It's never a healthy back and forth with you, I wonder why?

Never mind the fact that you still think "clutch" is single-game (mid)range shooting within the last X minutes or whatever. I'm afraid it goes beyond that. I've literally made a post in response to you about this, calling you out for the fact that you don't consider Russell/defense in general clutch. Like I said though, no response back...

[ChiLongQua]

Hakeem.
Lebron's peak is kinda overrated here, imo his prime is GOAT tier but his peak isnt.

[AMW27]

vs Utah Stockton/Malone
vs Barkley/KJ
vs Robinson

Finals vs Shaq/Penny

Lebron's 2012 run

vs Knicks Carmelo and Lin or JR Smith
vs Pacers George and Hibbert
vs Celtics over the hill KG/Pierce/Allen

Finals vs KD/WB/Harden

The finals is the only team that had elite HoF level talent vs the Heat. Conference disparity is handwaved far too often......

Calling the Celtics over the hill haha, I expected nothing less.

It is funny how we judge a players' playoff performance by their offensive stats more often than not, and then use an overall team's strength as a barometer for how tough the competition is. The logical flaw is obvious, but in order to make LeBron's competition look worse, I suppose it is ignored? Instead of some superficial listing of names (which you couldn't even bother getting right), I think it would help more to look at the defenses they faced. I'll include LeBron's and Hakeem's teams' respective ORTGs too, relative to opponent RS DRTG.

1995 Hakeem:
vs -2.6 Jazz: +14.9
vs +2.1 Suns (the second worst defense to make the playoffs): +5.5
vs -2.9 Spurs: +5.2
vs -0.5 Magic: +9.3

2012 LeBron:
vs -3.6 Knicks: +11.9
vs -1.5 Pacers: +3.5
vs -6.4 Celtics: +10.7
vs -1.4 Thunder: +11.9

Weighted Average
Hakeem: vs -0.8 DRTG and +8.2 offense
LeBron: vs -3.4 DRTG and +9.3 offense

Box Stats
Hakeem: 30.5 points, 4.1 assists per 75, +1.7% rTS, 26.7 PER, .143 WS/48, 110 ORTG (+1.7)
LeBron: 29 points, 5.4 assists per 75, +4.9% rTS, 30.3 PER, .284 WS/48, 116 ORTG (+11.4)

So at the very least, LeBron was facing tougher defenses, and his box score stats come out prettier. Coincidentally he faced a better defensive team in each respective round than Hakeem as well. I don't think looking at the whole team's performance is perfect, but it does support my belief that perimeter players are better offensive players and leads in general. And when you look at their teammates, I think Hakeem had a better cast tbh. Drexler was amazing, all the guards shot the lights out, and it was a pretty deep team (reflected in the well distributed WS). Credit should of course be given to Hakeem for drawing all that attention and finding his guys, his passing was at his best this year I'd say...and yet they still come short of LeBron's team. Not to mention LeBron was drawing similar attention, had a number 2 option who didn't really shoot too well, and had Bosh missing 9 total games (crazy that they had a +10.7 offense on the number one defense with only 3 games of Bosh).

Now what made Hakeem's opponents better competition was that those teams were all good offensively as well. The same cannot be said for the 2012 competition. And ironically, Hakeem's relatively poor play in the RS that cost them HCA is turned into a boost in this comparison.

Hakeem would need to catch up on defense, and I think he does a pretty good job at doing that (even though this was imo one of LeBron's better defensive postseasons); the comparison is very close. But if you're someone who is looking at LeBron's ppg and apg and whatever as a measure of his performance, and then talking about conference disparity without looking at the defenses that each guy faced, you're doing it wrong.

This post is so great and important. Cheers.
And for me, the bolded part is the most important one. I'm aware of saying 'only playoffs' would mean eliminating the regular season but when we do that, we also put some trust into regular season performances being relatively close. When I say 2000 Shaq vs. 2012 LeBron playoffs only, it would make sense because none of the options put themselves at a disadvantaged position. Why would we be rewarding Hakeem for putting himself in a tougher position?..

Well it is what it is. Hakeems back was up against the wall in The 1995 playoffs.

I dont think I can say him he underperformed during the regular season though.

Sent from my LM-Q710(FGN) using RealGM mobile app

[SeniorWalker]

Hakeem.
Lebron's peak is kinda overrated here, imo his prime is GOAT tier but his peak isnt.

Explain how his peak isnt GOAT tier. I've long thought hes had either the 2nd or 3rd highest ever, so I'd like to hear your reasoning.

[ChiLongQua]

Hakeem.
Lebron's peak is kinda overrated here, imo his prime is GOAT tier but his peak isnt.

Explain how his peak isnt GOAT tier. I've long thought hes had either the 2nd or 3rd highest ever, so I'd like to hear your reasoning.

Well there are a couple of guys who carried mediocre or even garbage rosters to a title, while Lebron was almost always in a loaded team(in his peak at least). For that reason I'd comfortably put peak MJ, shaq, Hakeem and Duncan ahead of peak Lebron. Lebron's in the same tier with guys like Wilt and Kareem.

[thekdog34]

How exactly did Hakeem underperform in the 1995 regular season? That supporting cast was still weak. Although at the are of 32 he was not at his defense peak anymore

[No-more-rings]

Hakeem.
Lebron's peak is kinda overrated here, imo his prime is GOAT tier but his peak isnt.

Explain how his peak isnt GOAT tier. I've long thought hes had either the 2nd or 3rd highest ever, so I'd like to hear your reasoning.

Well there are a couple of guys who carried mediocre or even garbage rosters to a title, while Lebron was almost always in a loaded team(in his peak at least). For that reason I'd comfortably put peak MJ, shaq, Hakeem and Duncan ahead of peak Lebron. Lebron's in the same tier with guys like Wilt and Kareem.

No one has ever carried a garbage cast to a title before. And funny that that’s your reasoning when Mj’s title casts weren’t really any worse than Lebron’s. And as for Shaq, he won all his with 2 of the best shooting guards ever.

[Bidofo]

How exactly did Hakeem underperform in the 1995 regular season? That supporting cast was still weak. Although at the are of 32 he was not at his defense peak anymore

Aside from my eye test simply seeing an older player who could exert himself less:
- a substantial drop in wins (-11) and SRS (-1.87, from 6th to 11th)
- as you said, his defense was only going down from 1993 (defensive peak imo). Reflected in worse DRTG, worse opp eFG%, and substantially worse DRB%. Part of this can be attributed to the midseason loss of Thorpe though
- the Rockets post-trade in games Hakeem played were 14-12 I believe. I'm not sure what they were with both Drexler and Hakeem, but I imagine close to .500 as well, so there are questions of fit there (wasn't a problem in the playoffs ofc)
- a decrease in composite box score stats like WS/48, BPM, VORP
I do not think it is too hard to see why he (and the Rockets as a whole) underperformed. Really only his per game stats maintained.

[thekdog34]

How exactly did Hakeem underperform in the 1995 regular season? That supporting cast was still weak. Although at the are of 32 he was not at his defense peak anymore

Aside from my eye test simply seeing an older player who could exert himself less:
- a substantial drop in wins (-11) and SRS (-1.87, from 6th to 11th)
- as you said, his defense was only going down from 1993 (defensive peak imo). Reflected in worse DRTG, worse opp eFG%, and substantially worse DRB%. Part of this can be attributed to the midseason loss of Thorpe though
- the Rockets post-trade in games Hakeem played were 14-12 I believe. I'm not sure what they were with both Drexler and Hakeem, but I imagine close to .500 as well, so there are questions of fit there (wasn't a problem in the playoffs ofc)
- a decrease in composite box score stats like WS/48, BPM, VORP
I do not think it is too hard to see why he (and the Rockets as a whole) underperformed. Really only his per game stats maintained.

I don't see why this is hakeems fault though. No longer being able to play like the goat defender because he's 32 is not something that I would consider under performing.

[Bidofo]

How exactly did Hakeem underperform in the 1995 regular season? That supporting cast was still weak. Although at the are of 32 he was not at his defense peak anymore

Aside from my eye test simply seeing an older player who could exert himself less:
- a substantial drop in wins (-11) and SRS (-1.87, from 6th to 11th)
- as you said, his defense was only going down from 1993 (defensive peak imo). Reflected in worse DRTG, worse opp eFG%, and substantially worse DRB%. Part of this can be attributed to the midseason loss of Thorpe though
- the Rockets post-trade in games Hakeem played were 14-12 I believe. I'm not sure what they were with both Drexler and Hakeem, but I imagine close to .500 as well, so there are questions of fit there (wasn't a problem in the playoffs ofc)
- a decrease in composite box score stats like WS/48, BPM, VORP
I do not think it is too hard to see why he (and the Rockets as a whole) underperformed. Really only his per game stats maintained.

I don't see why this is hakeems fault though. No longer being able to play like the goat defender because he's 32 is not something that I would consider under performing.

Well there is some middle ground here. Not that I think '94 was GOAT-level per se anyway, but the defense did drop a whole 6 points. I think some stats on the Rockets with Thorpe would be useful here to see how much can be attributed to his departure, not sure where to get that though, or if it exists. But there was otherwise no roster turnover. I think 18 Gobert could have anchored the defense better for instance. Of course he wouldn't be the focal point of the offense and so could actually spend more energy on defense so that kind of replacement is pretty complicated; point being, I don't think it would have required GOAT-level defense to get the Rockets in the top 10 at the very least. That and being the 6th seed with no HCA at all from a guy still in his prime (albeit near the end of it) is a bit unusual. Call it coasting if that is more applicable.

[ChiLongQua]

Explain how his peak isnt GOAT tier. I've long thought hes had either the 2nd or 3rd highest ever, so I'd like to hear your reasoning.

Well there are a couple of guys who carried mediocre or even garbage rosters to a title, while Lebron was almost always in a loaded team(in his peak at least). For that reason I'd comfortably put peak MJ, shaq, Hakeem and Duncan ahead of peak Lebron. Lebron's in the same tier with guys like Wilt and Kareem.

No one has ever carried a garbage cast to a title before. And funny that that’s your reasoning when Mj’s title casts weren’t really any worse than Lebron’s. And as for Shaq, he won all his with 2 of the best shooting guards ever.

MJ definitely had less help in '91 than any of Lebron's winning seasons.
As for Shaq, he did all the carrying in '00. Kobe wasnt even close to his peak form at that point.

[thekdog34]

Aside from my eye test simply seeing an older player who could exert himself less:
- a substantial drop in wins (-11) and SRS (-1.87, from 6th to 11th)
- as you said, his defense was only going down from 1993 (defensive peak imo). Reflected in worse DRTG, worse opp eFG%, and substantially worse DRB%. Part of this can be attributed to the midseason loss of Thorpe though
- the Rockets post-trade in games Hakeem played were 14-12 I believe. I'm not sure what they were with both Drexler and Hakeem, but I imagine close to .500 as well, so there are questions of fit there (wasn't a problem in the playoffs ofc)
- a decrease in composite box score stats like WS/48, BPM, VORP
I do not think it is too hard to see why he (and the Rockets as a whole) underperformed. Really only his per game stats maintained.

I don't see why this is hakeems fault though. No longer being able to play like the goat defender because he's 32 is not something that I would consider under performing.

Well there is some middle ground here. Not that I think '94 was GOAT-level per se anyway, but the defense did drop a whole 6 points. I think some stats on the Rockets with Thorpe would be useful here to see how much can be attributed to his departure, not sure where to get that though, or if it exists. But there was otherwise no roster turnover. I think 18 Gobert could have anchored the defense better for instance. Of course he wouldn't be the focal point of the offense and so could actually spend more energy on defense so that kind of replacement is pretty complicated; point being, I don't think it would have required GOAT-level defense to get the Rockets in the top 10 at the very least. That and being the 6th seed with no HCA at all from a guy still in his prime (albeit near the end of it) is a bit unusual. Call it coasting if that is more applicable.

I'm not sure I can agree that his defense was bad though. Not his peak but he was still an elite defender though.

Do people blame LeBron for missing the playoffs last year? He clearly wasn't at his peak, but I think he's shown he wasn't the problem

[Bidofo]

I'm not sure I can agree that his defense was bad though. Not his peak but he was still an elite defender though.

Again let's have some middle ground here; no one is calling it bad. There is a decent dropoff from '94, but a dropoff from elite can still be very good. It's just a larger dropoff than one would expect, I mean they go from -4.9 to -0.9. The Kings had a better defense, and a quick glance at that roster does not impress. Is it All-D level, of course! But at least a step down from '94, and more than that from '93.

Do people blame LeBron for missing the playoffs last year? He clearly wasn't at his peak, but I think he's shown he wasn't the problem

LeBron had to deal with injury so I'm not so sure that making the playoffs is the best barometer. But if we look at only the Lakers offense while he was playing, or even exclusively before he got injured, I'd say it was an underperformance. Not that I have the exact numbers right now, but I do not think they were much better than league average. It was definitely a weak year for him.

Also the comparison isn't exactly apples to oranges: age and mileage took a heavier toll on LeBron in '19 than Hakeem in '95. Prior to the season, it was 44298 MP for LeBron and 28331 for Hakeem, and that's not including playoff minutes. There is a 2 year difference as well.

[Bidofo]

MJ definitely had less help in '91 than any of Lebron's winning seasons.

Based on what? Looking at 2012 in particular since that's the focus of the thread, Pippen played better than Wade (just offensively even; defensively he blows Wade away) and Horace was better than Bosh by virtue of Bosh missing 9 games, 3 of which in the ECF against the #1 defense Celtics. If you want to compare the rest of the squad, well, the onus would be on you...

[JordansBulls]

1995 Hakeem beat every star player in there primes. Karl Malone/Stockton and then Barkley/KJ and then Robinson and then Shaq/Penny. Also did so for the franchise that drafted him.

[ChiLongQua]

MJ definitely had less help in '91 than any of Lebron's winning seasons.

Based on what? Looking at 2012 in particular since that's the focus of the thread, Pippen played better than Wade (just offensively even; defensively he blows Wade away) and Horace was better than Bosh by virtue of Bosh missing 9 games, 3 of which in the ECF against the #1 defense Celtics. If you want to compare the rest of the squad, well, the onus would be on you...

How is Pippen better than Wade? He didnt make the all nba team that season, even missed the all star game. Wade was clearly a better scorer than Pippen and the difference is larger than the playmaking deficit. Defensively Wade locked down Harden who was fire against San Antonio in the WCF, which significantly contributed to their win especially considering that Lebron couldnt lockdown KD. I just dont see how Pippen 'blows Wade away' defensively.
As for Bosh and Grant, Grant only played 3 more games than Bosh in the playoffs. Id favor Bosh in this one, he stretched the floor well for Bron and Wade while rebounding at a decent level. Grant was a better defender, but he lacked Bosh's range.