Re: REDOING THE NBA HALL OF FAME (retired in 1990 or earlier)

[Dutchball97]

You can add my votes as well, I don't think I'm going to change them tbh.

[Doctor MJ]

I think my main problem with Bobby Jones is that he was never the star on his teams. He was part of 1st seed Denver teams that failed to win a title in 75 and 76. In 1975 he looks like the 3rd guy behind Simpson and Mack, while a year later I'd even say he's the 4th guys behind Simpson, Thompson and Issel. Being the 3rd/4th best on a 1st seed that doesn't win the title isn't much of a HoF case imo. On the legendary 83 Sixers he won 6th man of the year and was 5th in importance to the team behind Malone, Erving, Cheeks and Toney. I guess I'm just not seeing it.

People are already swarming you with rebuttals so I understand if you're already full to the brim, but to say a bit more here:

1. Jones flat out was not going to play the "star" role. His game was different than that. I think it's important to start by not asking "Why were his teams forever featuring other guys over him?" but rather by asking how valuable what he was actually doing out there was.

2. I think it makes sense to analyze Denver year by year to understand what was going on.

In '73-74 Denver (then called the Rockets) was 37-47. In '75-75, they go to 65-19. That's when they take the leap. What changed?

Roster-wise, the two big additions are Mack Calvin and (rookie) Bobby Jones, and those were the guys receiving MVP votes.

In '75-76 Calvin leaves, the Nuggets get Thompson & Issel, and the team is still the best regular season team in the league. Now, if you're not looking at earlier years, the natural thing to do is to see the scoring of Thompson and Issel and think Jones is less valuable than them...but if you understand that the Nuggets became elite the previous year with Jones' arrival, I'd say it starts looking a bit different.

Now, I'm someone who voted in both Thompson and Issel so I'm not looking to knock them too hard, but I would note that those guys are both volume scoring-oriented offensive players, and the Nuggets' offense was actually slightly worse than the year before. We can use that to celebrate Mack Calvin, but things weren't exactly going well for Calvin on his new team.

Incidentally, Thompson & Jones both receive an MVP vote.

What can definitively be stated about Denver in the last few years in the ABA is that Bobby Jones is the through-line. Yes surely there's luck involved, but all the major players on the team in those years either saw the team suck with them or thrive without them. All except Jones, who burst on the seen with a guy possibly more efficient than any in the history of the game to that point.

Then we come to the NBA and Jones' best year.

In '76-77 Denver has the 2nd best SRS in the NBA behind Portland, and loses to Portland in the playoffs in arguably their toughest series. The most salient part of their success is their defense, which is 1st in the NBA - and represents one of the most resounding rebuttals of '70s basketball stereotypes that the vast majority of people never stopped buying into: If no one could play defense in the ABA, then why is it that one of the few teams that was able to actually come over to the NBA instantly became the best defense in the NBA?

How did Denver thrive on defense? In a word, turnovers. They caused more turnovers than other teams and led the league in steals. No, steals are a thing to be cautious about before giving too much credit with. The question is always whether the steal attempts were responsible or not. Bad defensive teams can get a lot of steals. But if a defense is great and the most salient part of their success comes from this aspect of defense, you have to give credit to those who made it happen.

Bobby Jones leads the team in steals and blocks. He averages 2 of each, which puts him in territory basically only with David Robinson & Hakeem Olajuwon,

When we get to the end of the year accolades, the NBA voters give all of their love to Thompson for obvious reasons (PPG!), but I'll flat out say that I think Bobby Jones was the MVP of the team. He was clearly the best player on a team with the best defense in the league despite the presence of the defensively challenged big Issel, and the efficiency of his offensive game absolutely made him a major plus on that end.

After that year we start seeing more issues with Jones' ability to play big minutes, and I'll say that if the minutes concern is what ultimately makes you skeptical of Jones, I do understand that. I see him as something of a Ginobili-like guy who plays ultra-hard when he's on the floor and adds great value while he does so, but I don't consider these guys actual MVP-level players.

But Jones does end up becoming an absolutely vital part of the 76ers core, first definitively being the "winner" of a trade with the much, much, much bigger star George McGinnis - I consider Jones > McGinnis for HOF purposes and have no hesitation there - but there's also this:

If you go look at the 76ers all-time leaders in playoff WS, Jones is in the Top 5 along with Julius Erving, Dolph Schayes, Mo Cheeks, and Wilt Chamberlain, and of the modern players in that group (Erving, Cheeks, Jones), Jones has the best WS/48. Again, this is AFTER Jones' peak he's doing all of this.

I look at Jones and I see a guy who was far more rare than your average volume scorer. I think that frankly, while I do believe Thompson had more potential than Jones, I'd probably rank Jones' peak impact ahead of any other Nugget of that era, and then he goes to Philly and plays a perfect sidekick for Erving (and later Moses) for years on end.

If you were ask me to make a list of all the guys who were like Bobby Jones - ultra-high-efficiency, high-motor, defensive star, great teammates, no ego, etc - honestly, there aren't a lot of them. Every team would work better with a player like Bobby, and more should consider giving up on McGinnis-like players for Jones-like players if they have the opportunity.

[wojoaderge]

Lenny Wilkens took over as coach midseason, promoted Dennis Johnson and Jack Sikma, and the team went from a 5-17 team to one that almost won the championship that exact year, and did win it the next year with Johnson & Sikma as the 2 big minute guys. Gus Williams was a new arrival this year but had been featured from the beginning of the season. He was a major part of that much-worse-than-the-previous-year that resulted in the coaching change.

Bob Hopkins' starting lineup was Marvin Webster, Paul Silas, Bruce Seals, Fred Brown, and Slick Watts. Only the Human Eraser remained as a starter after Wilkens took over. Look to b-ref's boxscores for confirmation.

I think it's more that the whole team overperformed with the jump and switch defense pioneered by Larry Brown leading to great offensive efficiency in the regular season off turnovers then teams playing to avoid those turnovers in the postseason. Julius Erving did have one of his great performances ever against Jones in the 75 finals. Jones is a rookie but it seems that he is still playing very good defense but it just doesn't matter as Erving goes over him, through him, hits from midrange, and basically plays like the greatest player in the world, which that year he was. The next year they swapped out Mack Calvin for David Thompson and the team focused more on Thompson and Ralph Simpson's high flying athleticism and one on one drives for their identity and less on the defense and off ball movement of the previous year (though still very good on both).

Neither Jones nor The Doctor made the Finals during Jones's rookie year. The Nuggets were eliminated by George McGinnis and the Pacers and the Nets were defeated by Marvin Barnes and the Spirits. This happened next season.

Then they lost Calvin and transitioned to being a team where all the attention was focused on David Thompson, one of the most highly hyped rookies of all time even though Simpson made All-ABA 1st team ahead of him! in Simpson's career year. And the performance of the team barely changed (still creating offense off transition and playing a jump and switch defense) staying strong defensively despite adding Issel who was a weak defensive center. Yes, again, he did drop to 4th option offensively but he held that defense together (with some help from Fatty Taylor and Byron Beck) to keep it the best team in the ABA.

Not very germane to the conversation but David Thompson started at SF his rookie year and was beaten by The Doctor and Billy Knight for first team honors. Also, Fatty Taylor was a Virginia Squire that season and Byron Beck's role had more or less been taken by Marvin Webster.

[Doctor MJ]

Lenny Wilkens took over as coach midseason, promoted Dennis Johnson and Jack Sikma, and the team went from a 5-17 team to one that almost won the championship that exact year, and did win it the next year with Johnson & Sikma as the 2 big minute guys. Gus Williams was a new arrival this year but had been featured from the beginning of the season. He was a major part of that much-worse-than-the-previous-year that resulted in the coaching change.

Bob Hopkins' starting lineup was Marvin Webster, Paul Silas, Bruce Seals, Fred Brown, and Slick Watts. Only the Human Eraser remained as a starter after Wilkens took over. Look to b-ref's boxscores for confirmation.

Williams' splits don't show the same type of correlation that the other guys do. Hopkins basically coached through basically to the end of November.

PPG in November:

Williams 17.6
Sikma 8.5
Johnson 6.9

PPG in December:

Williams 19.8
Johnson 15.4
Sikma 12.1

I don't want to make it seem like I'm saying Williams wasn't a vital part of the Wilkens core because he clearly was, but Williams was very nearly leading the team in scoring while they sucked. The guys who really had their prominence raised were Johnson & Sikma, which has everything to do with why despite they were 5th & 6th in MPG on the team that year and 1st & 2nd the next on the championship team.

As I say that, what I have to acknowledge is that Wilkens does seem to have chosen Williams over DJ after '79-80, which is why DJ got traded. As such, you can make an argument that Williams is the core player of the Sonics' champion era. If trading DJ away had allowed Williams to shine more on an even better team, he'd be a lock for the Hall for me, but that's of course not what happened. The Sonics and Williams would never be relevant again.

Meanwhile, would help make Phoenix better than they were with Westphal, and keep them competitive until he left for Boston, where he'd win more championships. It's wrong to imply that DJ was in any way the star of those champions of course, and I wouldn't want to imply that DJ deserves to be seen as a guy you can expect to win a championship with as your best player, only that he's a hell of a lot more proven being a vital part of strong cores with a game that blends well with actual superstar scorers and guys like Williams alike.

[Doctor MJ]

I think it's more that the whole team overperformed with the jump and switch defense pioneered by Larry Brown leading to great offensive efficiency in the regular season off turnovers then teams playing to avoid those turnovers in the postseason. Julius Erving did have one of his great performances ever against Jones in the 75 finals. Jones is a rookie but it seems that he is still playing very good defense but it just doesn't matter as Erving goes over him, through him, hits from midrange, and basically plays like the greatest player in the world, which that year he was. The next year they swapped out Mack Calvin for David Thompson and the team focused more on Thompson and Ralph Simpson's high flying athleticism and one on one drives for their identity and less on the defense and off ball movement of the previous year (though still very good on both).

Yeah I think it's clear that as much as I love Jones, he didn't have an answer for the Doctor at his best.

[Doctor MJ]

I've appreciate the thoughts people have given on Marques vs Jamaal. Still looking for more.

(And also, if anyone has thoughts on Goodrich. I'm less enticed by Goodrich's game than the other two, but while I think of Goodrich having a short career, he actually played more than either.)

[Ryoga Hibiki]

my votes:
Alcindor
Erving
Gervin
Gilmore
Walton (peak level really to high too leave him out)
McAdoo
clearly ahead of the others

Dennis Johnson
Bobby Jones
pretty sure, I love this kind of all around players to be recognized in the HOF

Marques Johnson
Gus Williams
I will think if I should change going through the thread

[Doctor MJ]

Okay, I'll put a vote up:

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar: Obviously the King of the Class

Julius Erving: I like someone called him Prince of the Class, more deserving of King status than the last couple Kings

Artis Gilmore: Really an epic player. Suffers from comparison to someone like Kareem, an easy choice for this project

George Gervin: Your standard superstar career. Would earn a spot in any era.

Bill Walton: Brief transcendence followed by injury is frankly enough for me. Impressed by his Celtic comeback too.

Bob McAdoo: Simlar to Walton without the same mystical impact, drastically ahead of his time scorer

Bobby Jones: One of the most profoundly impact role players in history.

Dennis Johnson: Best player on a champion and cemented his legacy by continuing to add value in novel contexts.

Marques Johnson: Just too good to put others above him here.

That leaves one spot...

Lenny Wilkens: He's been lingering on my mind for vote after vote, and the more I thought about it, the more it feels like Lucas doesn't deserve a spot above him. I'll also acknowledge a fascination with the TS Add stat and the fact that Wilkens basically adapts until he's a consistent positive here, while guys like Lucas & Williams don't.

fwiw, anyone voting Gus Williams over Lenny Wilkens here, I urge to really think about Lenny. I'll admit that part of my thought here is the fact that I just kept thinking about Lenny with the Sonics as he was their coach and they won with guards that Lenny seems like he could see himself with. I think if you look at the entirety of Wilkens vs Williams career, Wilkens really comes across as the better overall player.

Also fwiw, I'm certainly open to arguments for Lucas, but I feel like I'm the only one who was making those arguments, and as of now, I don't feel I really can.

Re: Other guys.

I was pulling for Silk Wilkes but as someone mentioned, he wasn't actually on the Lakers at their peak. The teams he was on, while they were champions, weren't clear cut better than Marques' Bucks, and Marques played a far more central role.

Goodrich was on my mind as another HOF UCLA guy who played more than either guy, but I just think Marques was a tier better as a player.

[eminence]

Getting the vote in.

Kareem
DrJ
Gervin
Gilmore
Walton
Dennis Johnson
Marques Johnson
Bobby Jones
Bob McAdoo
Gus Williams

[penbeast0]

Then they lost Calvin and transitioned to being a team where all the attention was focused on David Thompson, one of the most highly hyped rookies of all time even though Simpson made All-ABA 1st team ahead of him! in Simpson's career year. And the performance of the team barely changed (still creating offense off transition and playing a jump and switch defense) staying strong defensively despite adding Issel who was a weak defensive center. Yes, again, he did drop to 4th option offensively but he held that defense together (with some help from Fatty Taylor and Byron Beck) to keep it the best team in the ABA.

Not very germane to the conversation but David Thompson started at SF his rookie year and was beaten by The Doctor and Billy Knight for first team honors. Also, Fatty Taylor was a Virginia Squire that season and Byron Beck's role had more or less been taken by Marvin Webster.

It's germane. If they listed Simpson at guard instead of forward, it's different competition unless they just vote for the 5 best players so it matters when you are looking at how they were seen contemporaneously. You are also correct in that it was Chuck Williams (better playmaker, not as good a defender) who played PG in 76. However, Beck played 80 games averaging slmost twice as many minutes a game as Marvin Webster that year in both the regular season and the playoffs so I did remember one detail right. It annoys the hell out of me that I didn't double check because it takes about 20 seconds to do so and mistakes like that hurt credibility. Thanks for catching them.

[penbeast0]

Votes so far:
Kareem Abdul Jabbar (penbeast0, Narigo, Dr Positivity, Dutchball97, Ryoga Hibiki, Doctor MJ, eminence)
Julius Erving (penbeast0, Narigo, Dr Positivity, Dutchball97, Ryoga Hibiki, Doctor MJ, eminence)
George Gervin (penbeast0, Narigo, Dr Positivity, Dutchball97, Ryoga Hibiki, Doctor MJ, eminence)
Artis Gilmore (penbeast0, Narigo, Dr Positivity, Dutchball97, Ryoga Hibiki, Doctor MJ), eminence
Bob McAdoo (penbeast0, Narigo, Dr Positivity, Dutchball97, Ryoga Hibiki, Doctor MJ, eminence)
Bill Walton (penbeast0, Narigo, Dr Positivity, Dutchball97, Ryoga Hibiki, Doctor MJ, eminence)

Bobby Jones (penbeast0, Narigo, Dr Positivity, Ryoga Hibiki, Doctor MJ, eminence)
Marques Johnson (penbeast0, Narigo, Dutchball97, Ryoga Hibiki, Doctor MJ, eminence)
Dennis Johnson (penbeast0, Dr Positivity, Dutchball97, Ryoga Hibiki, Doctor MJ, eminence)

Gus Williams (penbeast0, Dr Positivity, Dutchball97, Ryoga Hibiki, eminence)

Lenny Wilkens (Narigo, Dr Positivity, Doctor MJ)

Spencer Haywood (Narigo, Dutchball97)

[wojoaderge]

Then they lost Calvin and transitioned to being a team where all the attention was focused on David Thompson, one of the most highly hyped rookies of all time even though Simpson made All-ABA 1st team ahead of him! in Simpson's career year. And the performance of the team barely changed (still creating offense off transition and playing a jump and switch defense) staying strong defensively despite adding Issel who was a weak defensive center. Yes, again, he did drop to 4th option offensively but he held that defense together (with some help from Fatty Taylor and Byron Beck) to keep it the best team in the ABA.

Not very germane to the conversation but David Thompson started at SF his rookie year and was beaten by The Doctor and Billy Knight for first team honors. Also, Fatty Taylor was a Virginia Squire that season and Byron Beck's role had more or less been taken by Marvin Webster.

It's germane. If they listed Simpson at guard instead of forward, it's different competition unless they just vote for the 5 best players so it matters when you are looking at how they were seen contemporaneously. You are also correct in that it was Chuck Williams (better playmaker, not as good a defender) who played PG in 76. However, Beck played 80 games averaging slmost twice as many minutes a game as Marvin Webster that year in both the regular season and the playoffs so I did remember one detail right. It annoys the hell out of me that I didn't double check because it takes about 20 seconds to do so and mistakes like that hurt credibility. Thanks for catching them.

Yes, I was thinking of 76-77 in regards to Beck/Webster

[trex_8063]

I think it's more that the whole team overperformed with the jump and switch defense pioneered by Larry Brown leading to great offensive efficiency in the regular season off turnovers then teams playing to avoid those turnovers in the postseason. Julius Erving did have one of his great performances ever against Jones in the 75 finals. Jones is a rookie but it seems that he is still playing very good defense but it just doesn't matter as Erving goes over him, through him, hits from midrange, and basically plays like the greatest player in the world, which that year he was. The next year they swapped out Mack Calvin for David Thompson and the team focused more on Thompson and Ralph Simpson's high flying athleticism and one on one drives for their identity and less on the defense and off ball movement of the previous year (though still very good on both).

Yeah I think it's clear that as much as I love Jones, he didn't have an answer for the Doctor at his best.

fwiw, in my limited eye-test on Bobby Jones, he never looked like a "stopper" on his man D. Merely decent/good in that respect. It was always the help defense where I thought he shined (probably on a GOAT-tier [per minute, at least] for a combo forward in that respect). But as to being a guy who's going to "shut down" the opposing star.....he didn't strike me as that guy. But again, my eye-test is sort of limited. Just found a few games of the '77 Nuggets on YouTube; gonna have to watch those sometime soon.

[Doctor MJ]

I think it's more that the whole team overperformed with the jump and switch defense pioneered by Larry Brown leading to great offensive efficiency in the regular season off turnovers then teams playing to avoid those turnovers in the postseason. Julius Erving did have one of his great performances ever against Jones in the 75 finals. Jones is a rookie but it seems that he is still playing very good defense but it just doesn't matter as Erving goes over him, through him, hits from midrange, and basically plays like the greatest player in the world, which that year he was. The next year they swapped out Mack Calvin for David Thompson and the team focused more on Thompson and Ralph Simpson's high flying athleticism and one on one drives for their identity and less on the defense and off ball movement of the previous year (though still very good on both).

Yeah I think it's clear that as much as I love Jones, he didn't have an answer for the Doctor at his best.

fwiw, in my limited eye-test on Bobby Jones, he never looked like a "stopper" on his man D. Merely decent/good in that respect. It was always the help defense where I thought he shined (probably on a GOAT-tier [per minute, at least] for a combo forward in that respect). But as to being a guy who's going to "shut down" the opposing star.....he didn't strike me as that guy. But again, my eye-test is sort of limited. Just found a few games of the '77 Nuggets on YouTube; gonna have to watch those sometime soon.

My impression as well, and good that you make the distinction because my words would imply conflation.

[trex_8063]

I think my main problem with Bobby Jones is that he was never the star on his teams. He was part of 1st seed Denver teams that failed to win a title in 75 and 76. In 1975 he looks like the 3rd guy behind Simpson and Mack, while a year later I'd even say he's the 4th guys behind Simpson, Thompson and Issel. Being the 3rd/4th best on a 1st seed that doesn't win the title isn't much of a HoF case imo. On the legendary 83 Sixers he won 6th man of the year and was 5th in importance to the team behind Malone, Erving, Cheeks and Toney. I guess I'm just not seeing it.

Spoiler:

People are already swarming you with rebuttals so I understand if you're already full to the brim, but to say a bit more here:

1. Jones flat out was not going to play the "star" role. His game was different than that. I think it's important to start by not asking "Why were his teams forever featuring other guys over him?" but rather by asking how valuable what he was actually doing out there was.

2. I think it makes sense to analyze Denver year by year to understand what was going on.

In '73-74 Denver (then called the Rockets) was 37-47. In '75-75, they go to 65-19. That's when they take the leap. What changed?

Roster-wise, the two big additions are Mack Calvin and (rookie) Bobby Jones, and those were the guys receiving MVP votes.

In '75-76 Calvin leaves, the Nuggets get Thompson & Issel, and the team is still the best regular season team in the league. Now, if you're not looking at earlier years, the natural thing to do is to see the scoring of Thompson and Issel and think Jones is less valuable than them...but if you understand that the Nuggets became elite the previous year with Jones' arrival, I'd say it starts looking a bit different.

Now, I'm someone who voted in both Thompson and Issel so I'm not looking to knock them too hard, but I would note that those guys are both volume scoring-oriented offensive players, and the Nuggets' offense was actually slightly worse than the year before. We can use that to celebrate Mack Calvin, but things weren't exactly going well for Calvin on his new team.

Incidentally, Thompson & Jones both receive an MVP vote.

What can definitively be stated about Denver in the last few years in the ABA is that Bobby Jones is the through-line. Yes surely there's luck involved, but all the major players on the team in those years either saw the team suck with them or thrive without them. All except Jones, who burst on the seen with a guy possibly more efficient than any in the history of the game to that point.

Then we come to the NBA and Jones' best year.

In '76-77 Denver has the 2nd best SRS in the NBA behind Portland, and loses to Portland in the playoffs in arguably their toughest series. The most salient part of their success is their defense, which is 1st in the NBA - and represents one of the most resounding rebuttals of '70s basketball stereotypes that the vast majority of people never stopped buying into: If no one could play defense in the ABA, then why is it that one of the few teams that was able to actually come over to the NBA instantly became the best defense in the NBA?

How did Denver thrive on defense? In a word, turnovers. They caused more turnovers than other teams and led the league in steals. No, steals are a thing to be cautious about before giving too much credit with. The question is always whether the steal attempts were responsible or not. Bad defensive teams can get a lot of steals. But if a defense is great and the most salient part of their success comes from this aspect of defense, you have to give credit to those who made it happen.

Bobby Jones leads the team in steals and blocks. He averages 2 of each, which puts him in territory basically only with David Robinson & Hakeem Olajuwon,

When we get to the end of the year accolades, the NBA voters give all of their love to Thompson for obvious reasons (PPG!), but I'll flat out say that I think Bobby Jones was the MVP of the team. He was clearly the best player on a team with the best defense in the league despite the presence of the defensively challenged big Issel, and the efficiency of his offensive game absolutely made him a major plus on that end.

After that year we start seeing more issues with Jones' ability to play big minutes, and I'll say that if the minutes concern is what ultimately makes you skeptical of Jones, I do understand that. I see him as something of a Ginobili-like guy who plays ultra-hard when he's on the floor and adds great value while he does so, but I don't consider these guys actual MVP-level players.

But Jones does end up becoming an absolutely vital part of the 76ers core, first definitively being the "winner" of a trade with the much, much, much bigger star George McGinnis - I consider Jones > McGinnis for HOF purposes and have no hesitation there - but there's also this:

If you go look at the 76ers all-time leaders in playoff WS, Jones is in the Top 5 along with Julius Erving, Dolph Schayes, Mo Cheeks, and Wilt Chamberlain, and of the modern players in that group (Erving, Cheeks, Jones), Jones has the best WS/48. Again, this is AFTER Jones' peak he's doing all of this.

I look at Jones and I see a guy who was far more rare than your average volume scorer. I think that frankly, while I do believe Thompson had more potential than Jones, I'd probably rank Jones' peak impact ahead of any other Nugget of that era, and then he goes to Philly and plays a perfect sidekick for Erving (and later Moses) for years on end.

If you were ask me to make a list of all the guys who were like Bobby Jones - ultra-high-efficiency, high-motor, defensive star, great teammates, no ego, etc - honestly, there aren't a lot of them. Every team would work better with a player like Bobby, and more should consider giving up on McGinnis-like players for Jones-like players if they have the opportunity.

Well said.

Was just going to comment [agree] that steals don't ALWAYS translate to good team defense; it really depends on the amount of gambling taking place to get them.
If you see a team that's near the top of the league in spg and/or opponent TOV%, but who is also nearer the bottom of the league in opponent FTA/FGA (+/- maybe opponent eFG%, too), I'd say there's a good chance they're gambling A LOT.

Gambling can be on a reach (which increases the foul-rate, and thus the opp FTAr), or gambling on passing lanes or other snipes from the weak-side......but when the latter misses, it creates a defensive break-down (which is likely to increase both the opp FTAr and opp eFG%).

A good concrete example might be the '03 Sixers: this is after Mutombo has departed, so their defense is merely fair/decent. This is one of the years Iverson leads the league in steals; though as many here have noted, Iverson gambled a fair bit (Aaron McKie may have walked the line of excessive gambling, too).
This team leads the league in steals per game and is #2 in opp TOV; but they're also 22nd (of 29) in opp FTAr and 26th in opp eFG%.

When I see that extreme polarization between opp TOV% and opp FTAr (+/- opp eFG%), I pretty much assume there are probably multiple individuals who gamble excessively for steals, to a degree that is perhaps not actually helping the team defensively.

[trex_8063]

Gonna put my tentative picks out there (in a pinch [if I don't update], these can be used as my "official" picks). EDIT: I made an official vote post later, pen (post #59).

The locks:
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Julius Erving
Artis Gilmore
George Gervin
Bob McAdoo

Cannot see any way that those five don't make the cut.

Bobby Jones is pretty much a lock for me, too, actually. Can't really see not voting for him this round; there's no way I see five more guys as more deserving.

After that it's a bit debatable, though....

Dennis Johnson - I think DJ's value went a little beyond his box-numbers (which aren't fantastic), and he just seemed to make himself an integral piece of MULTIPLE contenders. Larry Bird raved about him, fwiw. Pretty good longevity considering he was a consistent role player as a rookie, at least some-time starter 2nd year, a star by 3rd year, and remained a starter right thru to his 14th and final season (never really injured either); he consequently packed almost 36k minutes into his 14 seasons.

Marques Johnson - Really solid peak and prime. His longevity isn't great, though it's primarily his post-prime that was cut short, not his prime (which was still a fair/OK 7 years, basically; plus an 8th season that perhaps doesn't look quite prime, but close [was an All-Star, fwiw]). Never a member of an all-time team, so doesn't have any "legacy points" like that, but packed enough career value in that I'm inclined to probably support him here.

Spencer Haywood - voted for him last time, so gonna do again. In strict terms of total career value (my ATL principle, which has mostly been guiding my picks in this project) he perhaps doesn't quite make the cut; but his historical relevance in terms of paving the way for other guys to come out of highschool, plus him being one of nine [10, I guess] ABA MVP's is enough for me to give him the nod.

*Walt Bellamy - *I may come back and change this one. If I'm voting straight up who I think it should be from the eligible candidates, he's one of my picks. But this would be the fourth consecutive round I've voted for him, and he clearly just doesn't have the support from other posters. So I could see this as sort of throwing one of my votes away; it doesn't seem like it accomplishes anything, other than being a "protest vote" of sorts. I do try to maintain what might be called voter integrity, and not try to vote strategically based on who has support; but if he just doesn't have a chance, why bother? So I may just ignore him and go with the other "next four" on my list.
fwiw, if I bump him, it's probably going to be for Gus Williams (though Lenny Wilkens is also in the running). Does anyone have a major opinion on Gus vs Lenny?
EDIT: For reasons I alluded to in a prior post, I'm not too high on Maurice Lucas. He has the same "shoots to much on poor efficiency" issue as Hayes while being a lesser defensive player and not having anywhere near the longevity or motor that Hayes had. For me it pushes him too far out into the field.

[Doctor MJ]

Gonna put my tentative picks out there (in a pinch [if I don't update], these can be used as my "official" picks).

The locks:
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Julius Erving
Artis Gilmore
George Gervin
Bob McAdoo

Cannot see any way that those five don't make the cut.

Bobby Jones is pretty much a lock for me, too, actually. Can't really see not voting for him this round; there's no way I see five more guys as more deserving.

After that it's a bit debatable, though....

Dennis Johnson - I think DJ's value went a little beyond his box-numbers (which aren't fantastic), and he just seemed to make himself an integral piece of MULTIPLE contenders. Larry Bird raved about him, fwiw. Pretty good longevity considering he was a consistent role player as a rookie, at least some-time starter 2nd year, a star by 3rd year, and remained a starter right thru to his 14th and final season (never really injured either); he consequently packed almost 36k minutes into his 14 seasons.

Marques Johnson - Really solid peak and prime. His longevity isn't great, though it's primarily his post-prime that was cut short, not his prime (which was still a fair/OK 7 years, basically; plus an 8th season that perhaps doesn't look quite prime, but close [was an All-Star, fwiw]). Never a member of an all-time team, so doesn't have any "legacy points" like that, but packed enough career value in that I'm inclined to probably support him here.

Spencer Haywood - voted for him last time, so gonna do again. In strict terms of total career value (my ATL principle, which has mostly been guiding my picks in this project) he perhaps doesn't quite make the cut; but his historical relevance in terms of paving the way for other guys to come out of highschool, plus him being one of nine [10, I guess] ABA MVP's is enough for me to give him the nod.

*Walt Bellamy - *I may come back and change this one. If I'm voting straight up who I think it should be from the eligible candidates, he's one of my picks. But this would be the fourth consecutive round I've voted for him, and he clearly just doesn't have the support from other posters. So I could see this as sort of throwing one of my votes away; it doesn't seem like it accomplishes anything, other than being a "protest vote" of sorts. I do try to maintain what might be called voter integrity, and not try to vote strategically based on who has support; but if he just doesn't have a chance, why bother? So I may just ignore him and go with the other "next four" on my list.
fwiw, if I bump him, it's probably going to be for Gus Williams (though Lenny Wilkens is also in the running). Does anyone have a major opinion on Gus vs Lenny?
EDIT: For reasons I alluded to in a prior post, I'm not too high on Maurice Lucas. He has the same "shoots to much on poor efficiency" issue as Hayes while being a lesser defensive player and not having anywhere near the longevity or motor that Hayes had. For me it pushes him too far out into the field.

Since you're mentioning Lucas, just wanted to make sure you realize you didn't mention Walton.

[trex_8063]

Gonna put my tentative picks out there (in a pinch [if I don't update], these can be used as my "official" picks).

The locks:
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Julius Erving
Artis Gilmore
George Gervin
Bob McAdoo

Cannot see any way that those five don't make the cut.

Bobby Jones is pretty much a lock for me, too, actually. Can't really see not voting for him this round; there's no way I see five more guys as more deserving.

After that it's a bit debatable, though....

Dennis Johnson - I think DJ's value went a little beyond his box-numbers (which aren't fantastic), and he just seemed to make himself an integral piece of MULTIPLE contenders. Larry Bird raved about him, fwiw. Pretty good longevity considering he was a consistent role player as a rookie, at least some-time starter 2nd year, a star by 3rd year, and remained a starter right thru to his 14th and final season (never really injured either); he consequently packed almost 36k minutes into his 14 seasons.

Marques Johnson - Really solid peak and prime. His longevity isn't great, though it's primarily his post-prime that was cut short, not his prime (which was still a fair/OK 7 years, basically; plus an 8th season that perhaps doesn't look quite prime, but close [was an All-Star, fwiw]). Never a member of an all-time team, so doesn't have any "legacy points" like that, but packed enough career value in that I'm inclined to probably support him here.

Spencer Haywood - voted for him last time, so gonna do again. In strict terms of total career value (my ATL principle, which has mostly been guiding my picks in this project) he perhaps doesn't quite make the cut; but his historical relevance in terms of paving the way for other guys to come out of highschool, plus him being one of nine [10, I guess] ABA MVP's is enough for me to give him the nod.

*Walt Bellamy - *I may come back and change this one. If I'm voting straight up who I think it should be from the eligible candidates, he's one of my picks. But this would be the fourth consecutive round I've voted for him, and he clearly just doesn't have the support from other posters. So I could see this as sort of throwing one of my votes away; it doesn't seem like it accomplishes anything, other than being a "protest vote" of sorts. I do try to maintain what might be called voter integrity, and not try to vote strategically based on who has support; but if he just doesn't have a chance, why bother? So I may just ignore him and go with the other "next four" on my list.
fwiw, if I bump him, it's probably going to be for Gus Williams (though Lenny Wilkens is also in the running). Does anyone have a major opinion on Gus vs Lenny?
EDIT: For reasons I alluded to in a prior post, I'm not too high on Maurice Lucas. He has the same "shoots to much on poor efficiency" issue as Hayes while being a lesser defensive player and not having anywhere near the longevity or motor that Hayes had. For me it pushes him too far out into the field.

Since you're mentioning Lucas, just wanted to make sure you realize you didn't mention Walton.

Whoops, yeah that was an oversite. I'm going to replace Bellamy with Walton (I guess I made my decision to give up on Walt as a lost cause); I'd otherwise have replaced Haywood with Walton.

[trex_8063]

MY OFFICIAL VOTES:

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Julius Erving
Artis Gilmore
George Gervin
Bob McAdoo
Bobby Jones
Dennis Johnson
Marques Johnson
Bill Walton
Spencer Haywood

[kipper34]

My Votes are

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Julius Erving
Bill Walton
Artis Gilmore
George Gervin
Bob McAdoo

Dennis Johnson: Was a huge part of two great teams. Bird called him his greatest teammate. A large part of why he said that was probably just to piss of McHale a little bit but also because DJ was the only player that could match his BBIQ and I think he really respected that aspect of his game. One of the all time great defensive guards, he could turn around a series by changing his matchup like the '84 finals when he switched onto Magic. He was legitimately great in the '79 finals and deserved his FMVP. Generally got better in the playoffs as well. Fairly easy pick.

Bobby Jones: Enough has been said on him but he was a perfect glue guy, played on a couple great teams. Highly versatile and portable. Kept his efficiency high, pretty much a lock.

Gus Williams: Put up great numbers on title contenders and title winning teams so he sneaks in. I'm pretty high on his offence . He was able to transform into a much better playmaker as the Sonics changed and they needed something different from him. Was able to improve in the playoffs. From what I've seen I've been pretty impressed with his defence. He was at least a great pick pocket and was quick enough to navigate screens but size limited him. You could pretty easily sell me on Lenny Wilkens or Marques Johnson over him but I'll still take Gus by a hair.

Roger Brown: I've said enough on him and he won't get in but I'll still throw him a vote.