Rank playoffs versions (runs) of Jordan and Lebron

[MyUniBroDavis]

Well, postseason run is not the whole peak and James was underwhelming in 2018 RS. Nobody ever denied his excellence in 2018 playoffs though.

Yes, I know, but they didnt even mention a lot about PO in this topic... If he was really in best form in PO (and PO is matter the most), so its his best version, best peak...

I think that James has a few comparable playoff runs - 2009, 2012 and 2016-18. 2018 isn't cleary the best, but has the case.

That's why it's better to pick Miami or other Cavs year - because he had comparable playoff run but far better RS. I have 2012 James as his peak personally, with solid case for 2013 and 2016.

I wouldnt really jave 2009 or 2012 as food as 2018 though, 2016 for legend maybe 2017 but it was a different year

The level of him stepping up to the plate was just next level

[70sFan]

Yes, I know, but they didnt even mention a lot about PO in this topic... If he was really in best form in PO (and PO is matter the most), so its his best version, best peak...

I think that James has a few comparable playoff runs - 2009, 2012 and 2016-18. 2018 isn't cleary the best, but has the case.

That's why it's better to pick Miami or other Cavs year - because he had comparable playoff run but far better RS. I have 2012 James as his peak personally, with solid case for 2013 and 2016.

I wouldnt really jave 2009 or 2012 as food as 2018 though, 2016 for legend maybe 2017 but it was a different year

The level of him stepping up to the plate was just next level

I disagree, 2012 showed James at some of his finest moments and his defense was something else in that season.

I'm generally higher on 2012-18 James than 2009-10 (with the exception of 2015), but 2009 still has solid case especially when you consider his unreal motor.

[MyUniBroDavis]

I think that James has a few comparable playoff runs - 2009, 2012 and 2016-18. 2018 isn't cleary the best, but has the case.

That's why it's better to pick Miami or other Cavs year - because he had comparable playoff run but far better RS. I have 2012 James as his peak personally, with solid case for 2013 and 2016.

I wouldnt really jave 2009 or 2012 as food as 2018 though, 2016 for legend maybe 2017 but it was a different year

The level of him stepping up to the plate was just next level

I disagree, 2012 showed James at some of his finest moments and his defense was something else in that season.

I'm generally higher on 2012-18 James than 2009-10 (with the exception of 2015), but 2009 still has solid case especially when you consider his unreal motor.

I mean agree to disagree is fine, i think bron wasnt nearly complete enough 2009 for me to consider that. With 2018 bron i just feel there was that sense of wouldnt let them lose type energy, at least till the finals

[70sFan]

I wouldnt really jave 2009 or 2012 as food as 2018 though, 2016 for legend maybe 2017 but it was a different year

The level of him stepping up to the plate was just next level

I disagree, 2012 showed James at some of his finest moments and his defense was something else in that season.

I'm generally higher on 2012-18 James than 2009-10 (with the exception of 2015), but 2009 still has solid case especially when you consider his unreal motor.

I mean agree to disagree is fine, i think bron wasnt nearly complete enough 2009 for me to consider that. With 2018 bron i just feel there was that sense of wouldnt let them lose type energy, at least till the finals

With 2009 I actually agree, but I don't think that was the case for 2012. He had much different role in Miami than in 2018 Cavs but it didn't make him worse. I know - he couldn't make a three all postseason long, but he proved that he didn't have to because he played much more off-ball and inside and that's where I like James the most.

[MyUniBroDavis]

I disagree, 2012 showed James at some of his finest moments and his defense was something else in that season.

I'm generally higher on 2012-18 James than 2009-10 (with the exception of 2015), but 2009 still has solid case especially when you consider his unreal motor.

I mean agree to disagree is fine, i think bron wasnt nearly complete enough 2009 for me to consider that. With 2018 bron i just feel there was that sense of wouldnt let them lose type energy, at least till the finals

With 2009 I actually agree, but I don't think that was the case for 2012. He had much different role in Miami than in 2018 Cavs but it didn't make him worse. I know - he couldn't make a three all postseason long, but he proved that he didn't have to because he played much more off-ball and inside and that's where I like James the most.

I mean, i really only was talking aboutu 2009 lol

I do think he did figure it out more by then (2018), even by his own admission. I do think lebron in an off ball role is nice as well and should be used more

[freethedevil]

2009 was much better supporting cast than 2018.


I don't understand why people keep underrating these 2007-10 rosters defensively, they were very strong on that end.

I dont know why you keep cherrypicking defense as if it changes that they holsitcally played 20 win basketball without lebron. The 2018 cavs aren't suddenly worse, because you cherrypick one side of the court.

The 18 cavs literally embodied heiocentricism around lebron, and didn't play worse basketball without lebron than the 08-10 cavs did.

There's no good argument for the cavs being more talented in 09, and those cavs were built pretty normally with a defensive slant and good spacing.

The 18 cavs were a bizarro show specfically contorted to maxiize lebron's "floor raising", and despite that, 09 lebron took his 20 win team to much higher heights both in the rs and the playoffs than 18 lebron took his team. If 2018 Lebron was anywhere near as good as 2009 lebron it would be reflected in the holistic evidence, but it isn't, because he isn't anywhere near as good.

[freethedevil]

Are we really going to use jordan's teammates getting him through half of the ecf as proof 91 MJ played better?

Half the ECF? Jordan had one subpar game in that series (game 1). The other 3 games he averaged 31 pts/6 reb/7 ast/2 TO/57% FG. Try again.

Game 2 was as bad as game 1, have a read:
viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2010459



Jordan played vastly worse than lebron did at any point in 2009 in both game 1 and game 2 and played vastly worse in the second round than lebron did, and played vastly worse in the first round than lebron did and off course came nowhere close to lebron's 40 win lift in the regular season.

Putting 91 MJ ahead of lebron's 09 requires you to ignore what happened on the court during those seasons respectively, its really that simple.

[freethedevil]

2018
1991
1993
2017
2009
1992
2012
1990
2016
1997

etc..

Can I get some explanation on how 2018 got up there?

In terms of team success, basically everyone your ranked it above was better both in the regular season and the playoffs, and in terms of supporting cast 2009 was similar/comparable.

As far as maximizing impact via fit, 2018 is only really below 2017 and 2016 probably


2018 both represents the weakest team led both in the rs and th eplayoffs(getting outscored by the pacers and the kyrie-less celtics lol), is one of the best fits on the list, and it isn't the most imapctful or biggest lift. So how did 2018 get no.1?

And if 2018 is no.1 aren'y you inconsistent keeping 2009 and 1990 so low?

2018 was by far LeBron's most impressive playoff run.
If you completely ignore that 2009 Lebron scored more(adjusting for pace), created more, turned the ball over vastly less, scored more effecinetly relative to league average, protected the rim vastly better, and played vastly better man defense for the entirety of the playoffs(including his series against a bod boy pistons level defense), then yes, I guess we can make a universe where 2018 Lebron is even in he conversation for lebron's "most impressive playoffs

You don't realize just how bad that Cavs roster was. So bad that they won 19 games in the next season. LeBron was willing that roster
The 08-10 cavs played 18 win basketball without lebron from 08-10 and were playing at an 19 win pace the season after he left before they blew everything up. And they were not nearly as contorted around 09 lebron as the 18 cavs were around 18 lebron. The reason why the 09 cavs were a much better team han he 2018 cavs is ver, very simple, Lebron was a vastly better player in 2009 than he was in 2018.

2009 is literally just a vastly better version of 2018.
Just to show bad the roster was, I'll go over Games 6 and 7 of the Celtics ECF series. The Cavs were down 3-2 heading into Game 6. LeBron needed to win 2 elimination games just to make the finals. He responded by having his best 2 game stretch ever.
The cavs
In Game 6, Kevin Love went down with an Injury after just 5 minutes of game action. He did not play in Game 7 either. That meant LeBron was without his 2nd best player for the crucial 2 game stretch.

LeBron averaged 41/13/9, on 51/53/68 shooting. He played every minute of those two games except for 1:54. In that short 1:54 span, the Cavs were outscored by 5 points.
When you adjust for 2018 pace, 2009 lebron averaged a 50 point tripe double while doing this thing known as "defense" and barely turning the ball over. Again, if you completely ignore what happened in every other playoff ever, then maybe 2018 is a goat level run. But assuming basketball didn't start in 2018, its just disrespectful to be putting 2018 anywhere close.

The Cavs won those 2 games solely on LeBron. The rest of the team was garbage.
Soooo, like Game 1 and game 5 against the magic?
Here is the Cavs "supporting" cast for those 2 games:
J.R. Smith
Jeff Green
George Hill
Tristan Thompson
Kyle Korver
Larry Nance
Jordan Clarkson
Cedi Osman
And this is worse than 2009 Lebron's cast why?
In Games 6 and 7:
The rest of the Cavs outside of LeBron averaged:
57.5 PPG on 43.8 FG%, 23 3P%, 7 Offensive Rebounds, 6.5 Assists-5 Turnovers, only 3.5 steals

That's horrible production. Game 7 was the worst offender as LeBron scored 35 of the Cavs 87 points and his team shot 6-25 from 3 and only grabbed 2 offensive rebounds for him, got him 2 steals and 2 blocks. Name me another player in history who won a game 7 when his cast gave him only 57 points on terrible shooting, didn't grab rebounds, didn't block shots, didn't force turnovers? It's never happened before. What LeBron accomplished was literally unprecedented.

You can look at the 3rd most important game of the Cavs run (Game 7 vs Ind) and see the same story. LeBron scored 45 of his teams 105 points. The rest of the squad shot just 33 FG%, 31 3P%


I find it incredible how you went ahead and said "2018 lebron was easily the most impressive run, thereby impying its much better than evert other run listed, but the entirety of your argument is literally just listing 2018 lebron stuff and not comparing it to anyone.

You'd think you might want to actually do a comparison if you're gonna compare postseasons, no?

[colts18]

I hope you were old enough to have actually watched the 09 Cavs live. Yes the 09 Cavs was not a great cast. At the same time, they were miles ahead of the 18 Cavs. The 09 Cavs was one of the best defensive supporting casts in the league. They actually had a coach who emphasized the defensive side of the ball. The 18 Cavs was one of the worst defenses in history. History. Just how bad were the Cavs? The next season without LeBron they fell to a 117.6 Defensive rating. The highest ever in history. Let me repeat that, no team in history was giving up points at the same rate as the 19 Cavs.

The #2 player in playoff minutes for the 2018 Cavs was frickin J.R. Smith. A washed up JR Smith. Do you wanna know how many minutes J.R. Smith has played since in the 2 seasons since 2018? 301. And that's the guy that LeBron was relying on in Game 6/7 vs the Celtics.

[RCM88x]

I honestly don't think there's a huge talent difference in the supporting casts between the 09 and 18 Cavs. To me the 09 team just had significantly better coaching and obviously a lot more continuity and chemistry. Half the 2018 team was added to the roster within 90 days of the playoffs. That's not a recipe for success in the NBA.

Give the 2018 a semi-competent coach like Mike Brown and a whole season to figure things out (aka a GM/front office who has an ounce of a clue) and they look a hell of a lot better imo.

[freethedevil]

I hope you were old enough to have actually watched the 09 Cavs live. Yes the 09 Cavs was not a great cast. At the same time, they were miles ahead of the 18 Cavs.

Baseless claim is baseless. The final result was miles ahead, but that's probably becasue the 40 win player who turned up everything in the playoffs is better tnan the fringe mvp candidate. Lebron's series against a bad boy pistons level defense is better in every single aspect, creation, scroing, and defense, than any of 18 lebron's playoff series. Again, expalin how 2018 lebron was better when 2009 Lebron was vastly more effecient on greater volume? One player took a 20 win team to 66 wins and lost a razor thin series to a 59 win team with red hot shooting, the other got outsocrred by the pacers and the kyrie and hayward-less celtics.


The 09 Cavs was one of the best defensive supporting casts in the league. They actually had a coach who emphasized the defensive side of the ball.
And the 18 cavs were much better offensively, inflating lebron's floor raising by sacrificing everything for the altar of shooting. Cherrypikcing defense does not change both casts played at a similar level(the cavs actually have more evidence to support their 20 win-ness) holistically without their best player, and that was depsite the 09 cavs being a normalish roster in he construction and the 2018 being bizarro molded around lebron.

There is absolutely nothing to suggest the 09 cavs were a better cast outside of the fact that the vastly better version of lebron took them higher, with makes sense, since he's vastly better.

The 18 Cavs was one of the worst defenses in history. History. Just how bad were the Cavs? The next season without LeBron they fell to a 117.6 Defensive rating. The highest ever in history. Let me repeat that, no team in history was giving up points at the same rate as the 19 Cavs.
keep cherrypicking defense as if that refutes that they played at the same level holistically
The #2 player in playoff minutes for the 2018 Cavs was frickin J.R. Smith. A washed up JR Smith. Do you wanna know how many minutes J.R. Smith has played since in the 2 seasons since 2018? 301. And that's the guy that LeBron was relying on in Game 6/7 vs the Celtics.

again, stop cherrypicking, the 09 cavs played 20 win basketball without lebron, they were not "Miles ahead of the 18 cavs" and the 18 cavs were constructed in a way to inflate lebron's floor rasiing, not the 09 cavs. So the only logical conclusion for the mile-wide gap in terms of outcomes is that lebron's "offensive versatility" didn't make up for 2009 lebron's vastly better im prtoection, vastly more effecient creation, ability to basically never the turn the ball over, getting way more free throws, being faster, more high, jumping higher, being a vastly better man defender, or scoring at much higher effiency.

2018 has no case as the best playoff run, let alone "being by far" the best lmao.


2009 lebron granted players who could defend and the league's 4th best spacing was worth 40+ wins on a contender. No other player has achieved anything close to that, and the lame hypothetical-based excuses for that need to stop.

[70sFan]

2009 was much better supporting cast than 2018.


I don't understand why people keep underrating these 2007-10 rosters defensively, they were very strong on that end.

I dont know why you keep cherrypicking defense as if it changes that they holsitcally played 20 win basketball without lebron. The 2018 cavs aren't suddenly worse, because you cherrypick one side of the court.

The 18 cavs literally embodied heiocentricism around lebron, and didn't play worse basketball without lebron than the 08-10 cavs did.

There's no good argument for the cavs being more talented in 09, and those cavs were built pretty normally with a defensive slant and good spacing.

The 18 cavs were a bizarro show specfically contorted to maxiize lebron's "floor raising", and despite that, 09 lebron took his 20 win team to much higher heights both in the rs and the playoffs than 18 lebron took his team. If 2018 Lebron was anywhere near as good as 2009 lebron it would be reflected in the holistic evidence, but it isn't, because he isn't anywhere near as good.

2009 Cavs played total of 1 game without James, so I don't get where you get your idea that they were 20 wins team without him.

[colts18]

2009 was much better supporting cast than 2018.


I don't understand why people keep underrating these 2007-10 rosters defensively, they were very strong on that end.

I dont know why you keep cherrypicking defense as if it changes that they holsitcally played 20 win basketball without lebron. The 2018 cavs aren't suddenly worse, because you cherrypick one side of the court.

The 18 cavs literally embodied heiocentricism around lebron, and didn't play worse basketball without lebron than the 08-10 cavs did.

There's no good argument for the cavs being more talented in 09, and those cavs were built pretty normally with a defensive slant and good spacing.

The 18 cavs were a bizarro show specfically contorted to maxiize lebron's "floor raising", and despite that, 09 lebron took his 20 win team to much higher heights both in the rs and the playoffs than 18 lebron took his team. If 2018 Lebron was anywhere near as good as 2009 lebron it would be reflected in the holistic evidence, but it isn't, because he isn't anywhere near as good.

2009 Cavs played total of 1 game without James, so I don't get where you get your idea that they were 20 wins team without him.

That Cavs team played just 1 game without LeBron that season. It was the last regular season game of the year. A completely meaningless game vs the .500 Sixers, who had something to play for.

LeBron, Mo Williams, and Big Z did not play in that game. The other 2 Cavs starters (West, Varejao) played a combined 30 minutes total, all in the 1st half (They were up 12 at Halftime). It was a game where Wally Z played 43 minutes, Darnell Jackson (who?) played 42, Sasha Pavlovic played 41. Boobie Gibson, Lorenzen Wright , Terrence Kinsey , and Jawad Williams came off the bench.

The Sixers top 4 players (Iguodala, Andre Miller, Thad Young, and Lou Will) played 47, 44, 37, and 32 minutes respectively. The Sixers played this game full throttle.

With all of that, the Cavs still lost by only 1 point.

We never got to see Cavs in 2018 without LeBron because he played all 82 games and lead the league in Minutes per game.

[The Master]

This ''20 wins team without him'' is a flawed argument based on on/off from '09 and '10 seasons, as well as 10-11 season, when Cavs were clearly rebuilding and won 18 games. Not saying they were playoff team without LeBron, but yeah, they were much better than ''20 wins team''.

The main problem with 2018 team is that in postseason they didn't provide any defensive nor offensive output on regular basis, that's why 07-10 teams were generally better for the playoffs, despite similar unbalanced offense. It was kinda amazing when Cavs support played atrocious both on offensive and defensive end against Pacers. But I wouldn't overreact with one of the best defensive supporting casts in a league in '09 - they didn't make it to the finals in '09 mainly because they didn't have anyone good enough to defend Dwight, while Boston or Lakers did have, so both these teams quite easily stopped him.

[Cavsfansince84]

I think the better way to compare MJ and LeBron's playoff runs would be one thread for title runs and another for non title runs because otherwise that's a major difference in how some people will view any run.

[freethedevil]

2009 was much better supporting cast than 2018.


I don't understand why people keep underrating these 2007-10 rosters defensively, they were very strong on that end.

I dont know why you keep cherrypicking defense as if it changes that they holsitcally played 20 win basketball without lebron. The 2018 cavs aren't suddenly worse, because you cherrypick one side of the court.

The 18 cavs literally embodied heiocentricism around lebron, and didn't play worse basketball without lebron than the 08-10 cavs did.

There's no good argument for the cavs being more talented in 09, and those cavs were built pretty normally with a defensive slant and good spacing.

The 18 cavs were a bizarro show specfically contorted to maxiize lebron's "floor raising", and despite that, 09 lebron took his 20 win team to much higher heights both in the rs and the playoffs than 18 lebron took his team. If 2018 Lebron was anywhere near as good as 2009 lebron it would be reflected in the holistic evidence, but it isn't, because he isn't anywhere near as good.

2009 Cavs played total of 1 game without James, so I don't get where you get your idea that they were 20 wins team without him.

from a 32 game sample spanning from 08-10 and the star of thw 2011 season. Like i literally said.

[freethedevil]

This ''20 wins team without him'' is a flawed argument based on on/off from '09 and '10 seasons, as well as 10-11 season, when Cavs were clearly rebuilding and won 18 games. Not saying they were playoff team without LeBron, but yeah, they were much better than ''20 wins team''.

The main problem with 2018 team is that in postseason they didn't provide any defensive nor offensive output

ah yes defenisve output like say:
https://youtu.be/3oAAcEQ8t84?t=43
Someone who can erase a dwight dunk attempt just by standing near him?
Someone who takes out two potential dwights dunks in a single possession two possesiosn later?
https://youtu.be/3oAAcEQ8t84?t=618

In 4 possessions, Lebron did more defensively in 09 than lebron did any of his 18 series.

You can keep calling the cavs "one of the best defneisve casts in the league" it will not change that basketball is not a one way sport and hence cherrypkcing "defense" doesn't suddenly make the cavs better than they were.

Also, smh at people contiously trying to quse the qualifer of "stastical" as if non-box stats captured things like lebron's defense ot the 10-12 oc's he had a game vs the magic were somehow captured int he stasistics.

For reference in jordan's "amazing creation" series vs the sixers in 91, the best stastical game had him creating two scoring oppurtunities before the game blew wide open wiht th ebulls taking a 64-44 lead.

[70sFan]

I dont know why you keep cherrypicking defense as if it changes that they holsitcally played 20 win basketball without lebron. The 2018 cavs aren't suddenly worse, because you cherrypick one side of the court.

The 18 cavs literally embodied heiocentricism around lebron, and didn't play worse basketball without lebron than the 08-10 cavs did.

There's no good argument for the cavs being more talented in 09, and those cavs were built pretty normally with a defensive slant and good spacing.

The 18 cavs were a bizarro show specfically contorted to maxiize lebron's "floor raising", and despite that, 09 lebron took his 20 win team to much higher heights both in the rs and the playoffs than 18 lebron took his team. If 2018 Lebron was anywhere near as good as 2009 lebron it would be reflected in the holistic evidence, but it isn't, because he isn't anywhere near as good.

2009 Cavs played total of 1 game without James, so I don't get where you get your idea that they were 20 wins team without him.

from a 32 game sample spanning from 08-10 and the star of thw 2011 season. Like i literally said.

You know that 2009 team is much different than 2008, 2010 and 2011 right?

[colts18]

We already know that the 2018 Cavs was an all-time bad supporting cast. The numbers, eye test, and reputations suggest that. Kevin Love, Kyle Korver, and JR Smith have been clowned their whole careers for being among the worst defenders in the league. Tristan Thompson was the center and he couldn't protect the rim. Jeff Green, Jordan Clarkson, George Hill, never known for defense.

The only value they had was spacing for LeBron. The only value. They couldn't create shots, rebound, or play defense. So if they aren't hitting shots they are worthless. Keep that in mind.

I will post below how the Cavs supporting cast did in their two most important series (Boston and GSW). They played awesome against Toronto, I'll give them that. They played like crap vs. Indiana in the 1st round and should have lost. They got lucky LeBron bailed them out.

The Cavs allowed a 112 D Rating (Boston) and 125 D Rating (Golden State) in those series. So their defense was completely worthless. The only way they could make it up was with offense. So how did LeBron's "offensively oriented" supporting cast do in those 11 games?

JR: 32 MPG, 7/3/1, 40 TS%
Love: 29 MPG, 15/10/2, 51 TS%
Hill: 32 MPG, 9/2/2, 52 TS%
Green: 26 MPG, 8/3/2, 50 TS%
Thompson: 26 MPG, 7/7/1, 59 TS%
Korver: 19 MPG, 6/2/1, 51 TS%

None of them did crap. In the ECF, the supporting cast shot 29.6% from 3. In the finals, they shot 28.8% from 3. So if they aren't playing defense, they can't pass, they can't create, what the hell are they doing if they can't shoot 3's, the only redeeming value they had? Absolutely nothing.

Kyle Korver shot 1-11 (9%) from 3 in the finals. What the hell is the point of Kyle Korver if he can't shoot 3's? He has no other positive traits. So if he can't space properly, he is taking up space on the court.

What value does J.R. Smith (44 TS%), Hill (45 TS%), Hood (48 TS%), Green (36 TS%), Clarkson (23 TS%) have in the finals if they can't shoot?

So you have a cast that plays all-time bad defense, isn't shooting well, can't create plays, can't generate turnovers. What exactly makes that an adequate cast?

That's only the last 2 series. I didn't even mention the 1st round vs Indiana when the Cavs 2nd leading Scorer in the series, Love, scored just 11 PPG on 46 TS% and the 3rd leading scorer, JR, scored 9 PPG on 45 TS%.

They do not compare at all to the 2009 Cavs cast.

[colts18]

from a 32 game sample spanning from 08-10 and the star of thw 2011 season. Like i literally said.

You know that 2009 team is much different than 2008, 2010 and 2011 right?[/quote]

So true. 6 of the 7 games that LeBron missed in 2008 was before their major trade. Here were the players that started those games

Big Z
Devin Brown
Gooden
Gibson
Pavlovic
Shannon Brown
Hughes
Newble

Only 3 of those 8 players were even on the 2009 Cavs roster. 2 of 3 (Pavlovic, Gibson) were barely in the rotation against the Magic (both averaged under 12 MPG in the series).

The other game that LeBron missed in 2008 was the last game of the season, a meaningless game.

So none of those 7 2008 Cavs games without LeBron is relevant to the 2009 Cavs because the roster was different. We also know that the only 2009 Cavs game LeBron missed was the last game of the season, which was also not indicative of the 2009 Cavs cast because of who played in that game.

That only leaves with the 6 games LeBron missed in 2008. Who started those games?

Hickson 6 games
Jameson 5 games
Parker 5 games
Jawad Williams 5 games
Mo Williams 4 games
Moon 2 games
West 2 games
Powe 1 Game

A Total of 6 out of those 30 starting positions (West and Williams) were even on the 2009 Cavs playoff roster. That means 4 out of the 5 starting spots were from players who weren't on the 2009 team. Once again, irrelevant to the 2009 Cavs supporting cast.

Conclusion: None of the 2008 Cavs games had a roster that looked like the 2009 Cavs playoff roster. Neither did the 2010 Cavs. I won't even get into the 2011 Cavs. None of those missed games that LeBron missed can tell us about the 2009 Cavs roster.