RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #10 (Larry Bird)

[KPT1867]

My vote is for Kobe Bryant. From a talent and skill perspective he was just as good a Jordan. He played 20 seasons, allowing him to be 4th in points, 17th in steals, 31st is assists, 118th in rebounds.

He basically had two HoF careers. His first career where he had to find his way with Shaq. He won 3 of 4 Finals appearances. Including some dominant performances against the 76ers and Nets. He then had a second career where he was the main man and needed supporting pieces around him. He won 2 of 3 Finals appearances, including a dominant performance against the Magic.

I watched the 81 point game. That was not a game, where they were simply feeding him to pad the numbers. That was a game where they were down and he had to kick it into another gear to get the Lakers that victory

[Odinn21]

My vote is for Kobe Bryant. From a talent and skill perspective he was just as good a Jordan. He played 20 seasons, allowing him to be 4th in points, 17th in steals, 31st is assists, 118th in rebounds.

He basically had two HoF careers. His first career where he had to find his way with Shaq. He won 3 of 4 Finals appearances. Including some dominant performances against the 76ers and Nets. He then had a second career where he was the main man and needed supporting pieces around him. He won 2 of 3 Finals appearances, including a dominant performance against the Magic.

I watched the 81 point game. That was not a game, where they were simply feeding him to pad the numbers. That was a game where they were down and he had to kick it into another gear to get the Lakers that victory

You can not vote out of blue and the way you vote also does not follow our procedure.

I suggest you to read more carefully #1 posts in the threads in here. Cheers.

[Hal14]

10) Larry Bird
11) Kobe Bryant
12) Oscar Robertson

First off, there was a really good YouTube series done recently which broke down and analyzed the 8 players who can make a legit case for being the GOAT. Those 8 players are Bird, Magic, Jordan, Kareem, Wilt, Russell, Duncan and LeBron. The only guy from that list who has not yet been picked for this poll is Bird. If you think the guy who made tat video series has any credibility (I do), then Bird should have already got voted in by now.

In case anyone hasn't seen it yet, here is the case for Bird as the GOAT:

Watch on YouTube

Bird's Legacy? I mean, c'mon, where do I begin? His swagger/confidence/cockiness/trash talk is literally the stuff of legend. There are multiple videos on youtube that are over an hour and a half long with former players/coaches giving their favorite Larry Bird story, their favorite Larry Bird trash talking stories, their stories about how much fear he struck into opponents, stories about his game winners, stories about how impossible it was to win in the Boston Garden during the 80s...not to mention that Bird - along with Magic saved the NBA when its popularity was dwindling and TV ratings were plummeting. Bird and Magic had to save the league when its best player was Kareem - yet somehow Kareem got voted for the no. 3 spot on here and Bird still hasn't made it and we're on no. 9, lol..Oh yeah and how about his impact on the game when it comes to the 3-point shot? The 3-point shot just so happened to be introduced during Bird's rookie year. For the first few years teams were not shooting many 3's at all, it was still a league dominated by inside play. Then Bird happened. He figured out as the 80s went on that a) he was actually really good at shooting 3's and b) hey wait a minute, if we start making lots of these, we might win more because they are worth 3 points instead of 2. He then started shooting more 3's, his scoring average increased, then the NBA introduced the 3-point shooting contest at the all-star weekend - Bird won the first ever contest - and the second - and the third. He probably would have won the fourth but he was injured in 89. After that, the rest is history, as we saw a steady increase in the amount of 3's being taken and an increase in how much 3's were being worked into the strategy of the game. Then there's Bird's impact on the Celtics. The year before his rookie year was their worst season in franchise history - they finished with the 2nd worst record in the NBA. Then in Bird's rookie year their win total improved by 32 games, which is nuts! They won the title just 1 year later and another 2 titles after that with Bird winning finals MVP. Then what happened after Bird retired? He retired in 92 and the Celtics wouldn't make another trip to the NBA finals for another 16 years, yikes!

Let's look at where Bird finished in MVP voting from 1980 to 1988, the first 9 years of his career:

79-80, 4th place

80-81, 2nd place

81-82, 2nd place

82-83, 2nd place

83-84, 1st place

84-85, 1st place

85-86, 1st place

86-87, 3rd place

87-88, 2nd place

Bird finished higher than Magic in MVP voting for each of the first 7 years that the two of them were in the league together. During Bird's 3 MVP seasons he collected 198 first place votes for MVP. Magic collected 6. Both players were in their prime, yet one was clearly better. During those 3 seasons, Bird went to the finals all 3 seasons, winning 2 titles and collecting 2 finals MVPs. And beating Magic head to head in 84. Magic meanwhile during that 3 year stretch went to the finals 2 times, won 1 title and had 0 finals MVPs. Bird won 3 MVPs before Magic ever won 1, and it wasn't until Bird suffered a severe back injury that Magic won an MVP.

Comparing Bird vs Garnett:
Bird = 3 MVPs, 2 Finals MVPs, 3 NBA titles, 5 NBA finals appearances, 10 seasons where he made either all nba first or 2nd team
Garnett = 1 MVP, 0 Finals MVPs, 1 NBA title, 2 NBA finals appearances, 7 seasons where he made either all nba first or 2nd team

Looking at those numbers above, you see Bird has the clear edge across the board - despite the fact that Garnett played 8 more seasons.

So Bird was first or 2nd team all NBA in 10 out of his 13 seasons (77%) and Garnett made 1st or 2nd team all NBA in 7 of his 21 seasons (33%). Bird was 2nd team all NBA in 89-90, which is the first season he came. back after his back surgery. So even a post-surgery Bird, who was definitely not as limber as he was before the surgery - was still better than KG was during 14 of KG's 21 seasons since KG only made 1st or 2nd team all NBA in 7 of his 21 seasons.

This article does a pretty good job of being objective when it comes to looking at Garnett's past and the challenges he faced when it comes to being a good teammate / good leader:

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/14172961/the-cruel-tutelage-kevin-garnett

The article talks about KG not getting along with all star players like Marbury and Sczcerbiak..as well as not getting along with role players like Glen Davis and Patrick O'Bryant. It also talks about how Garnett signing the biggest contract in NBA history did a few things 1) Made it more difficult for the Twolves to give Garnett a sufficient supporting cast, since they were now paying so much for 1 player 2) Marbury got pissed because he was due for a payday and now that the Wolves gave Garnett so much money, that limited the amount the Wolves could pay Marbury which caused tension between the team's 2 stars 3) Garnett's contract was a big reason for the NBA lockout of 99, so his selfishness/greed directly impacted the league to be shut down.

The Wolves gave him that huge contract, but KG still couldn't make it work there. 0 finals appearances in Minnesota, countless 1st round playoff exits, turmoil/tension with many of his teammates, and the result was KG taking his talents to Boston to firm a super team with Pierce and Ray Allen. They won the title in 08, KG was not finals MVP and overall his time in Boston was disappointing that the Celtics only won 1 ring and only 2 finals appearances considering how stacked that team was. Compare that with Bird, a 32 win improvement in his rookie year, NBA title his 2nd year, stays with the same team his entire career, all of his teammates loved him, the fans loved him, and even his opponents respected him since Magic called Bird the GOAT, Kareem says Bird is the best player he ever played against, Isiah said Bird was better than him, Magic and Jordan when the 4 of them were in their prime and Pat Riley said, "if I needed a shot to win a game, I'll give the ball to Jordan - if I need a shot to save my life, I
I'll give it to Bird"

Good video which further details the case for Bird being top 5 all time:

Watch on YouTube

Bird is probably the best all-around player of all time. In terms of all-around game - outside shooting, mid range shooting, shooting off the catch, shooting off the dribble, hitting clutch shots, scoring inside off drives, scoring inside off post moves, scoring on the break, FT shooting. One of the best shooters ever...then you have rebounding - one of the best rebounding forwards ever.

Then you have passing - one of the best passers ever. Outside of Stockton and Magic, I'd say Bird is the best passer ever. The dude saw the game 2 steps ahead of everyone else, so he could make reads / see passes virtually no one else could, his instincts were off the charts. Jordan and Kobe were both amazing scorers and good passers. Magic was an amazing passer and a good scorer. Bird meanwhile was an all-time great at scoring AND passing. Only guy who can maybe say that is LeBron and he's already on the list. Bird would literally make perfect passes to teammates setting them up for dunks...while sitting on his butt. He'd set up teammates for baskets with perfect passes...while throwing the pass through the legs of his opponent. He'd throw passes the entire length of the court, and it would still be an absolute laser of a pass, right on the money - passes that most other players could only dream of making.

Then you have defense, the most underrated part of Bird's game. Bird made 2 all-NBA defensive teams but you have to consider the era that he played in. Overall as a league, there was a TON of competition to make all-defensive teams back in Bird's era. There was more defense being played back then - dudes were really getting up in each other's jock, dudes were really going at it and givin' em hell when they played D back then. If Bird played today, he would make at least 5 or 6 all defensive teams. On the flip side, Chris Paul has made 9 all defensive teams and LeBron has made 6...because not as many elite defensive players anymore. You put those 2 dudes in the 80s and you can cut their all defensive selections in half. Not to mention, Bird made one of the greatest defensive plays in NBA history, coming out of nowhere, showing tremendous anticipation by stealing the inbounds pass from Isiah Thomas in game 5 of the 1987 eastern conference finals. That was one of the greatest games of all time and one of the best, most hard fought playoff series' of all time and Bird made the play that won the game and decided the series.

Larry Bird on defense:

Watch on YouTube

[Dr Positivity]

1. Kevin Garnett - excellent longevity, two way impact, not the best scorer on the list but helps hist team on offense in various ways

2. Larry Bird - Putting him second because I feel his peak was extremely high. You don't win 3 straight MVPs without having a lot of respect in the league, he was even fringing on GOAT talk at some point. He simply has a very high impact on the game for reasons that go beyond the stats which are already good.

3. Jerry West - elite offensively for his time (efficiency, spacing, passing, etc.), great on defense, clutch. Not winning more titles isn't his fault in my opinion.

[limbo]

1. Kevin Garnett
2. Larry Bird
3. Dirk Nowitzki

Been voting for KG basically since #5, and frankly, it's getting pretty tiring having the same discussions about him in every single thread. This is one of the natural downsides of these types of projects. Players that are the most polarizing get to dominate most of the debate and it drags on in multiple threads. Meanwhile, i don't think i've got to chime in on Magic Johnson at all. He was just brought up and added to the list as quick as he came, because he's one of the least polarizing players on the board, and his impact is pretty easy to understand/sell. Still, i think there was room to talk about Magic's evolution as a player throughout the 80's and especially the value of his defense. But sadly that never came into fruition. But we'll eventually get there in some other thread, i don't doubt it. Anyway, if people are interested in my thoughts regarding Garnett, they can backtrack to previous threads and have a look there. I'll refrain from posting the same type of summations every thread.

I flip flop between Bird and Dirk in my mind. To me there's good arguments for both to be ranked ahead of each other, but most people seem to believe Bird deserves to be ahead of Dirk easily. If you're a guy that leans heavily towards peak impact in a vacuum + team success, it's pretty obvious you're gonna side with Bird. However, some people like to pretend that Bird was as good offensively as he was during '86-'88 in his entire prime... and that he was as good defensively when he increased his offensive usage/load as he was in the beginning of his career. People also like to conveniently ignore that Bird put up 24pts/7ast/4to on 50.5%TS in his first four Playoff runs. Dirk also has 12 prime years vs. Bird's 9...

Dirk is also not as bad of a defender as people believe. There's really 3 chapters in Dirk's defensive career.

Chapter I.) 2000-2004 -> Dirk on historically bad defensive teams, and Dallas playing him at Center and trying to maximize offense particularly in 2002 and 2004 made him look terrible. If you look at the seasons where Dirk is playing behind a rim protector like Shawn Bradley, as every defense needs to be good, his defensive impact is actually good great. How great? Well Dallas was able to be ranked 9th out of 29 teams defensively in 2003, despite Finley/Nash/NVE playing the most minutes on the team outside of Dirk, and Shawn Bradley only playing 21 mpg, while Reaf LaFrentz who was not a particularly good defender for a big played 23 mpg.

Chapter II.) 2005-2008 -> This was when Dallas scrapped their previous core and surrounded Dirk with mostly Dampier, Howard, Stackhouse, Terry and Harris. This is not some defensive powerhouse supporting cast, yet Dallas finished routinely around Top 10 and even as high as #5 defensively in 2007. Previously, some people might have thought you need to find a rim protector extraordinaire to offset Dirk's inability to contest shots around the rim (like Shawn Bradley or Tyson Chandler), but at this point of time in his career, Dampier was merely decent in that area. DeSangana Diop was clearly better than Dampier, but because Diop was horrible offensively he was mainly a reserve. Still Dirk managed to string together several good defensive team results with a decent rim protector in Dampier, a good wing defender in Howard and a young, at that time fiesty, guard in Devin Harris. That was it. Since these years were also some of the best offensive seasons in Dirk's career, where he was the clear cut alpha on offense, and the team adjusted to his style fully on that end, a lot of people speculate that Dirk's style/efficiency on offense was one of the most underlooked reasons of why Dallas was able to be this good defensively, despite not having the necessary raw defensive talent to go with it. Dirk was just so efficient on offense, coupled with his proximity on the court that allowed him to get back quicker than your usual 7-footer on defense, allowed Dallas to have their defense less exposed on the break and limit easy shot opportunities. In 2007, Dallas almost limited opposing teams to the same amount of eFG% than the Spurs with prime Duncan, Elson/Oberto, Horry, Bowen and Ginobili... And it sure wasn't because of Jason Terry, Jerry Stackhouse or Dampier at 31 being a monster rim protector.

Chapter III.) 2009-2012 -> Outside of the 2009 season, which was Rick Carlisle 1st season with the Mavs, Josh Howard missed 31 games, JJ Barea got more minutes, Dampier was further declining and Carlisle decided to play a young Brandon Bass a lot at the C position (news flash: Bass is not a C), this stretch in Dirk's career was where he was at his most dominant defensively, at least based on how good Dallas were able to be with him on the court, particularly in 2011 and 2012... Which is ironic, because Dirk was like 31-33 years old in those seasons, and clearly nowhere near his prime in terms of athleticism/mobility. Yet, with the right roster around him. Elite rim protector Tyson Chandler, strong wing defenders in Shawn Marion and Jason Kidd, Dirk was able to be clearly positive defender. Even with Tyson Chandler leaving before the 2012 season and Dallas putting a medley of Brandon Haywood, Brandan Wright and Ian Mahinmi at C, Dirk was still able to have a good defensive season.

For some reason, people put way too much stock in what happened with Dirk defensively from 2000 to 2004... Dude was young, skinny and ask to play behind Nash, Finley, Jamison and Antoine Walker... Lmao. Over the years, i've heard some people say: ''well, if you have Dirk on your team, and you have no rim protector, you're screwed defensively''. And maybe that's the case, but somehow Dallas managed to find Erick Dampier, DeSangana Diop, Brandan Haywood, Tyson Chandler, Brandan Wright and Ian Mahinmi, all in the sopan of half a decade... And a lot of the times, they had 2 or even 3 of these types of dudes on the roster at the same time... Which clearly indicates these guys aren't really hot commodity around the league. At the very worst you get a dude like DeSangana Diop, who is a non-factor offensively, but with Dirk being so good on offense, it kind of doesn't matter for the most part. A step above that is getting a dude like Tyson Chandler, who can actually be a high level finisher on offense, and if you don't put a body on him he'll score some points on you. Best case scenario is you just get someone like Marc Gasol, Al Horford, Brook Lopez, that covers Dirk's weakness on defense and enhances everyone ability on offense. Remember, Dirk has never actually played with a C in his career that could shoot the ball from outside or pass it even a little bit. Dirk was leading the best offenses in the league 4v5, because Dampier was largely a non-factor on offense. Contrast that to Steve Nash who had Amare at C, Marion at PF.

[freethedevil]

1. Kevin Garnett
2. Larry Bird
3. Dirk Nowitzki

Been voting for KG basically since #5, and frankly, it's getting pretty tiring having the same discussions about him in every single thread. This is one of the natural downsides of these types of projects. Players that are the most polarizing get to dominate most of the debate and it drags on in multiple threads. Meanwhile, i don't think i've got to chime in on Magic Johnson at all. He was just brought up and added to the list as quick as he came, because he's one of the least polarizing players on the board, and his impact is pretty easy to understand/sell. Still, i think there was room to talk about Magic's evolution as a player throughout the 80's and especially the value of his defense. But sadly that never came into fruition. But we'll eventually get there in some other thread, i don't doubt it. Anyway, if people are interested in my thoughts regarding Garnett, they can backtrack to previous threads and have a look there. I'll refrain from posting the same type of summations every thread.

I flip flop between Bird and Dirk in my mind. To me there's good arguments for both to be ranked ahead of each other, but most people seem to believe Bird deserves to be ahead of Dirk easily. If you're a guy that leans heavily towards peak impact in a vacuum + team success, it's pretty obvious you're gonna side with Bird. However, some people like to pretend that Bird was as good offensively as he was during '86-'88 in his entire prime... and that he was as good defensively when he increased his offensive usage/load as he was in the beginning of his career. People also like to conveniently ignore that Bird put up 24pts/7ast/4to on 50.5%TS in his first four Playoff runs. Dirk also has 12 prime years vs. Bird's 9...

Dirk is also not as bad of a defender as people believe. There's really 3 chapters in Dirk's defensive career.

Chapter I.) 2000-2004 -> Dirk on historically bad defensive teams, and Dallas playing him at Center and trying to maximize offense particularly in 2002 and 2004 made him look terrible. If you look at the seasons where Dirk is playing behind a rim protector like Shawn Bradley, as every defense needs to be good, his defensive impact is actually good great. How great? Well Dallas was able to be ranked 9th out of 29 teams defensively in 2003, despite Finley/Nash/NVE playing the most minutes on the team outside of Dirk, and Shawn Bradley only playing 21 mpg, while Reaf LaFrentz who was not a particularly good defender for a big played 23 mpg.

Chapter II.) 2005-2008 -> This was when Dallas scrapped their previous core and surrounded Dirk with mostly Dampier, Howard, Stackhouse, Terry and Harris. This is not some defensive powerhouse supporting cast, yet Dallas finished routinely around Top 10 and even as high as #5 defensively in 2007. Previously, some people might have thought you need to find a rim protector extraordinaire to offset Dirk's inability to contest shots around the rim (like Shawn Bradley or Tyson Chandler), but at this point of time in his career, Dampier was merely decent in that area. DeSangana Diop was clearly better than Dampier, but because Diop was horrible offensively he was mainly a reserve. Still Dirk managed to string together several good defensive team results with a decent rim protector in Dampier, a good wing defender in Howard and a young, at that time fiesty, guard in Devin Harris. That was it. Since these years were also some of the best offensive seasons in Dirk's career, where he was the clear cut alpha on offense, and the team adjusted to his style fully on that end, a lot of people speculate that Dirk's style/efficiency on offense was one of the most underlooked reasons of why Dallas was able to be this good defensively, despite not having the necessary raw defensive talent to go with it. Dirk was just so efficient on offense, coupled with his proximity on the court that allowed him to get back quicker than your usual 7-footer on defense, allowed Dallas to have their defense less exposed on the break and limit easy shot opportunities. In 2007, Dallas almost limited opposing teams to the same amount of eFG% than the Spurs with prime Duncan, Elson/Oberto, Horry, Bowen and Ginobili... And it sure wasn't because of Jason Terry, Jerry Stackhouse or Dampier at 31 being a monster rim protector.

Chapter III.) 2009-2012 -> Outside of the 2009 season, which was Rick Carlisle 1st season with the Mavs, Josh Howard missed 31 games, JJ Barea got more minutes, Dampier was further declining and Carlisle decided to play a young Brandon Bass a lot at the C position (news flash: Bass is not a C), this stretch in Dirk's career was where he was at his most dominant defensively, at least based on how good Dallas were able to be with him on the court, particularly in 2011 and 2012... Which is ironic, because Dirk was like 31-33 years old in those seasons, and clearly nowhere near his prime in terms of athleticism/mobility. Yet, with the right roster around him. Elite rim protector Tyson Chandler, strong wing defenders in Shawn Marion and Jason Kidd, Dirk was able to be clearly positive defender. Even with Tyson Chandler leaving before the 2012 season and Dallas putting a medley of Brandon Haywood, Brandan Wright and Ian Mahinmi at C, Dirk was still able to have a good defensive season.

For some reason, people put way too much stock in what happened with Dirk defensively from 2000 to 2004... Dude was young, skinny and ask to play behind Nash, Finley, Jamison and Antoine Walker... Lmao. Over the years, i've heard some people say: ''well, if you have Dirk on your team, and you have no rim protector, you're screwed defensively''. And maybe that's the case, but somehow Dallas managed to find Erick Dampier, DeSangana Diop, Brandan Haywood, Tyson Chandler, Brandan Wright and Ian Mahinmi, all in the sopan of half a decade... And a lot of the times, they had 2 or even 3 of these types of dudes on the roster at the same time... Which clearly indicates these guys aren't really hot commodity around the league. At the very worst you get a dude like DeSangana Diop, who is a non-factor offensively, but with Dirk being so good on offense, it kind of doesn't matter for the most part. A step above that is getting a dude like Tyson Chandler, who can actually be a high level finisher on offense, and if you don't put a body on him he'll score some points on you. Best case scenario is you just get someone like Marc Gasol, Al Horford, Brook Lopez, that covers Dirk's weakness on defense and enhances everyone ability on offense. Remember, Dirk has never actually played with a C in his career that could shoot the ball from outside or pass it even a little bit. Dirk was leading the best offenses in the league 4v5, because Dampier was largely a non-factor on offense. Contrast that to Steve Nash who had Amare at C, Marion at PF.

I mean, even if you literally just weigh peak/longetivity based on what studies show leads to more championships bird kinda kills dirk here.

I'm also curious what is making you go with dirk over kobe if you're slanting towards longetvity

[70sFan]

It's strange to me that some players are criticized based on film scouting report on defense, while some are defended because their weaknesses aren't captured on statsheet.

I think we should find a way to judge players on defense properly and consistently.

[penbeast0]

The holy grail of statistical analysis.

[Cavsfansince84]

My vote is for Kobe Bryant. From a talent and skill perspective he was just as good a Jordan. He played 20 seasons, allowing him to be 4th in points, 17th in steals, 31st is assists, 118th in rebounds.

He basically had two HoF careers. His first career where he had to find his way with Shaq. He won 3 of 4 Finals appearances. Including some dominant performances against the 76ers and Nets. He then had a second career where he was the main man and needed supporting pieces around him. He won 2 of 3 Finals appearances, including a dominant performance against the Magic.

I watched the 81 point game. That was not a game, where they were simply feeding him to pad the numbers. That was a game where they were down and he had to kick it into another gear to get the Lakers that victory

It was a regular season game where Kobe got hot against the 29th ranked defense in the league. Its impressive but its not something that should be brought up as a reason why you consider him to be the 10th greatest player of all time.

[Jordan Syndrome]

My vote is for Kobe Bryant. From a talent and skill perspective he was just as good a Jordan. He played 20 seasons, allowing him to be 4th in points, 17th in steals, 31st is assists, 118th in rebounds.

He basically had two HoF careers. His first career where he had to find his way with Shaq. He won 3 of 4 Finals appearances. Including some dominant performances against the 76ers and Nets. He then had a second career where he was the main man and needed supporting pieces around him. He won 2 of 3 Finals appearances, including a dominant performance against the Magic.

I watched the 81 point game. That was not a game, where they were simply feeding him to pad the numbers. That was a game where they were down and he had to kick it into another gear to get the Lakers that victory

It was a regular season game where Kobe got hot against the 29th ranked defense in the league. Its impressive but its not something that should be brought up as a reason why you consider him to be the 10th greatest player of all time.

What do you mean? Devin Booker is coming up in the teens.

[dontcalltimeout]

Not in terms of playstyle but I feel like Oscar vs West comparison is similar to Nash vs Paul when it comes to the disconnect in two way play and overall ranking. If we consider West/Paul to be among the best offensive and defensive players at their position, they should logically be ranked a lot higher than Oscar/Nash even if the latter are slightly better on offense. However, when it comes to GOAT rankings, we usually find little separation between Oscar/West or Nash/Paul. The one way guys actually rank higher in ElGee's list and in WOWY scores. For that to make sense, either the defense of West/Paul is very overrated or Oscar/Nash are two tiers higher on offense than guys who are presumably top 10-15 all time on offense. I am not sure I agree with either statements but at the same time, wouldn't West/Paul have a case over someone like Magic if they really are among the best ever at their position on both offense and defense? Anyone else have any thoughts on this?

Main reason I have Oscar over West is significantly better longevity/health. West battled a lot of injuries over his career that sap a lot of value. I expect I'll take CP3 over Nash this time around. I'd say I find West/CP3 defense generally slightly overrated as well (I'm lower on all guard defense really).

Out of curiosity, do you consider CP3's affect on team TOV as part of his impact on defense? He might be the goat at taking care of the ball and that certainly affects the other team's ability to get out on the break / attack defenses that aren't set.

[Owly]

What do you mean? Devin Booker is coming up in the teens.

20s Walt Wesley, Tony Delk, Willie Burton, Tracy Murray, Corey Brewer (temporarily forgot his name), Terrence Ross maybe a riser like Grayson Allen ...

[Cavsfansince84]

My vote is for Kobe Bryant. From a talent and skill perspective he was just as good a Jordan. He played 20 seasons, allowing him to be 4th in points, 17th in steals, 31st is assists, 118th in rebounds.

He basically had two HoF careers. His first career where he had to find his way with Shaq. He won 3 of 4 Finals appearances. Including some dominant performances against the 76ers and Nets. He then had a second career where he was the main man and needed supporting pieces around him. He won 2 of 3 Finals appearances, including a dominant performance against the Magic.

I watched the 81 point game. That was not a game, where they were simply feeding him to pad the numbers. That was a game where they were down and he had to kick it into another gear to get the Lakers that victory

It was a regular season game where Kobe got hot against the 29th ranked defense in the league. Its impressive but its not something that should be brought up as a reason why you consider him to be the 10th greatest player of all time.

What do you mean? Devin Booker is coming up in the teens.

Booker would need at least one more 70 pt game before he could crack my top 20.

[Joao Saraiva]

Kobe vs KG

Accodales and others:
Kobe
5 rings
1 MVP
2 FMVP
18 all star games
11 times top 5 in MVP voting
11 times all-NBA 1st

Garnett
1 ring
1 MVP
15 all star games
5 times top 5 in MVP voting
4 times all NBA 1st

In accodales and rings Kobe is miles and miles ahead of Kevin Garnett.

Kobe was a legit 1st option on offense at a level I think KG was not
Kobe proved this trough his career after not having Shaq without him.

His volume scoring was crazy, and we saw things like 81 points vs Toronto or Kobe outscoring an entire very Dallas team by himself.

He proved this by winning in 09 with a playoff run that is unmatched by Garnett, and he proved it yet again in 2010 going trough the West.

Kobe was as a legit 2nd option
He proved this while working with Shaq. I think his 01 campaign as a 2nd fiddle was out of this world, and he had series I think KG could only dream of even if surrounded by scorers like Allen, Pierce and a deeper squad.

Kobe was a more consistent playoff performer, and the ceiling he showed us trough the playoffs is higher than KGs. Their best series by GmSC:
Kobe vs SAC 01 25.5
Kobe vs SAS 01 25.4 (Leading the squad, above prime Shaq)
Kobe vs Phoenix 10 28.8
Kobe vs Jazz 08 25.4
Kobe vs Denver 09 26.8

KG's top GmSC was at 22.3.

I know GmSC doesn't tell the entire story, so obviously I'll take that by what it is: just a number that is an initial guide for how a player performed over a series.

However, Kobe's heights while having more presences in the playoffs and an usually very sustainable game, make me wonder how much of a career value does KG hold against Kobe Bryant.

It's not like Kobe isn't a proven player under diferent circumstances. I think the only one he failed was as a veteran taking another role on the team. But he definitely delivered as a 2nd fiddle, as the main star under bad circumstances and and as a star under good circumstances.

KG had less chances to prove himself in the playoffs... but he had at least enough chances to prove he could do as well as Kobe. And for me, he didn't. Team situation justifies that a bit (Kobe having more presences) but not it all. And yet again I think we're giving more credit to KG for what he could have done under more ideal circumstances. Not because of what he actually did with what he had.

[Joao Saraiva]

I'd like to see some vote counting so far.

I have Kobe, Oscar, Jerry, Bird, Karl Malone and Dirk all clearly above Kevin Garnett.

[Odinn21]

I'd like to see some vote counting so far.

I have Kobe, Oscar, Jerry, Bird, Karl Malone and Dirk all clearly above Kevin Garnett.

Please let's not indulge tactical voting...

[Joao Saraiva]

I'd like to see some vote counting so far.

I have Kobe, Oscar, Jerry, Bird, Karl Malone and Dirk all clearly above Kevin Garnett.

Please let's not indulge tactical voting...

My 1st vote was for Kobe. If it was tactical, I'd give it to Larry Bird since I think he's the guy with more of a chance to win it over Kevin Garnett.

I won't do it. If others will... Idk. That is up to each poster.

[eminence]

Not in terms of playstyle but I feel like Oscar vs West comparison is similar to Nash vs Paul when it comes to the disconnect in two way play and overall ranking. If we consider West/Paul to be among the best offensive and defensive players at their position, they should logically be ranked a lot higher than Oscar/Nash even if the latter are slightly better on offense. However, when it comes to GOAT rankings, we usually find little separation between Oscar/West or Nash/Paul. The one way guys actually rank higher in ElGee's list and in WOWY scores. For that to make sense, either the defense of West/Paul is very overrated or Oscar/Nash are two tiers higher on offense than guys who are presumably top 10-15 all time on offense. I am not sure I agree with either statements but at the same time, wouldn't West/Paul have a case over someone like Magic if they really are among the best ever at their position on both offense and defense? Anyone else have any thoughts on this?

Main reason I have Oscar over West is significantly better longevity/health. West battled a lot of injuries over his career that sap a lot of value. I expect I'll take CP3 over Nash this time around. I'd say I find West/CP3 defense generally slightly overrated as well (I'm lower on all guard defense really).

Out of curiosity, do you consider CP3's affect on team TOV as part of his impact on defense? He might be the goat at taking care of the ball and that certainly affects the other team's ability to get out on the break / attack defenses that aren't set.

I consider it part of his offensive impact myself (though it does show up in defensive impact metrics).

[trex_8063]

My vote is for Kobe Bryant. From a talent and skill perspective he was just as good a Jordan. He played 20 seasons, allowing him to be 4th in points, 17th in steals, 31st is assists, 118th in rebounds.

He basically had two HoF careers. His first career where he had to find his way with Shaq. He won 3 of 4 Finals appearances. Including some dominant performances against the 76ers and Nets. He then had a second career where he was the main man and needed supporting pieces around him. He won 2 of 3 Finals appearances, including a dominant performance against the Magic.

I watched the 81 point game. That was not a game, where they were simply feeding him to pad the numbers. That was a game where they were down and he had to kick it into another gear to get the Lakers that victory

You can not vote out of blue and the way you vote also does not follow our procedure.

Anyone can vote (or at least state who his vote would be), even "out of the blue"......which he's actually not: he requested to join and has voted in prior threads. Due to low post-count/participation, KPT1867 is still on a trial period (as per stipulations noted in OP of this thread), so his vote is not yet counted. But that doesn't mean he can't offer it up.

Put shortly: I got this.

btw KPT1867, he is correct in that if/when you have a counted vote, there is a protocol [pertaining to alternate selections] that must be followed for it to count (is also in the OP of thread linked above).

[limbo]

I mean, even if you literally just weigh peak/longetivity based on what studies show leads to more championships bird kinda kills dirk here.

I'm also curious what is making you go with dirk over kobe if you're slanting towards longetvity

What studies?

Dirk had more flawed, less talented teams that collapsed around him more frequently in the Playoffs compared to Bird, and he faced an insane level of opponent in the 1st/2nd round.

2001 PS:

1st round: Utah Jazz, 5.00 SRS (3/29)

Ortg/Drtg

Dirk: 121/105
Finley: 113/107
Nash: 113/109
Howard: 99/106
Bradley: 118/99

2nd round: San Antonio Spurs, 7.92 SRS (1/29)

Ortg/Drtg

Dirk: 116/110
Finley: 80/116
Howard: 92/114
Nash: 106/119
Eisley: 103/118
Bradley: 107/107


2002 PS:

1st round: Minnesota Timberwolves, 3.58 SRS (6/29)

Ortg/Drtg

Dirk: 133/95
Finley: 115/106
Nash: 117/112
NVE: 101/110
LaFrentz: 126/107
Najera:123/109

2nd round: Sacramento Kings, 7.61 SRS (1/29)

Ortg/Drtg

Dirk: 104/112
Finley: 118/117
Nash: 111/119
LaFrentz: 106/111
NVE: 87/118

First relatively bad offensive series by Dirk and Dallas loses 4-1. Need to keep in mind that this year Dirk was playing C, which compromised the defense as well.


2003 PS:

1st round: Portland Trailblazers: 2.97 SRS (6/29)

Ortg/Drtg

Dirk: 120/109
NVE: 118/118
Nash: 110/116
Finley: 108/117
Najera: 132/116
LaFrentz: 104/116
Bradley: 100/113

2nd round: Sacramento Kings: 6.68 SRS (2/29)

Ortg/Drtg

Dirk: 113/105
NVE: 123/115
Finley: 107/110
Nash: 126/110
LaFrentz: 102/108
Bell: 135/100


2004 PS:

1st round: Sacramento Kings: 5.41 SRS (3/29)

Ortg/Drtg

Dirk: 124/100
Daniels: 95/102
Nash: 107/108
Finley: 97/109
Jamison: 111/103
Walker: 92/102
Howard: 81/94


2005 PS:

1st round: Houston Rockets: 4.27 SRS (5/30)

Ortg/Drtg

Dirk: 106/108
Terry: 129/113
Stack: 112/115
Howard: 113/112
Finley: 121/114
Dampier: 128/113
Daniels: 96/116

First time that Dirk had a subpar series and his team actually picked up the slack on offense and it was barely enough to offset their garbage defense.

2nd round: Phoenix Suns: 7.08 SRS (2/30)

Ortg/Drtg

Dirk: 113/116
Stack: 110/126
Howard: 112/118
Terry: 116/120
Finley: 108/121
Dampier: 117/113
Daniels: 106/115

Again, Dirk needs a historically good offensive performance here to offset the terrible weak Dallas defense especially against a GOAT level offense in Phoenix.


2006 PS:

1st round: Memphis Grizzlies: 3.74 SRS (5/30)

Ortg/Drtg

Dirk: 136/101
Terry: 114/103
Howard: 120/97
Stack: 100/105
Dampier: 122/95

2nd round: San Antonio Spurs: 6.69 SRS (1/30)

Ortg/Drtg

Dirk: 128/107
Terry: 111/115
Howard: 107/110
Stack: 110/115
Harris: 101/114
Dampier: 132/108

historic carry job.

3rd round: Phoenix Suns: 5.48 SRS (4/30)

Ortg/Drtg

Dirk: 126/107
Howard: 112/106
Terry: 106/115
Stack: 105/115
Harris: 119/113
Griffin: 114/112
Van Horn: 94/116
Diop: 155/105

Finals: Miami Heat: 3.59 SRS (6/30) w/ supernova Wade just beating the 6.24 SRS Detroit Pistons (2/30)

Ortg/Drtg

Dirk: 109/100
Terry: 105/103
Howard: 93/99
Stack: 91/101
Harris: 87/105
Dampier: 116/95

Again. Collapse around Dirk, D-Wade with historic Finals, and if Dirk doesn't put up a performance like in the first three rounds his team losesl.

2007 PS:

1st round: We Believe Warriors, 0.00 SRS (13/30)

Ortg/Drtg

Dirk: 111/110
Howard: 118/110
Terry: 101/118
Stack: 101/117
Harris: 118/117
Diop: 118/110
George: 74/110

First time Dirk didn't face a contender Top 5 team in the Playoffs right of the bat... Again, Dirk has a rough series while the Warriors hit everything from three... Terry was suppose to be the 2nd option on this team, outside that Houston series he had more terrible offensive series than not. And don't even get me started on Stackhouse. And both are always horrible defensively, so they're already starting at a disadvantage in overall impact.

2008 PS:

1st round: New Orleans Hornets, 5.46 SRS (5/30)

Ortg/Drtg

Dirk: 124/115
Terry: 127/123
Howard: 86/119
Bass: 139/121
Kidd: 113/116
Stack: 80/124
Dampier: 96/119

Bass and Dirk frontcourt got exploited by CP3. Howard was horrible, Kidd was new to the team, Stack horrible as always...

2009 PS:

1st round: San Antonio Spurs: 3.36 SRS (7/30)

Ortg/Drtg

Dirk: 118/106
Howard: 115/105
Terry: 100/112
Barea: 112/109
Kidd: 134/105
Dampier: 124/105

2nd round: Denver Nuggets: 3.12 SRS (8/30)

Ortg/Drtg

Dirk: 131/120
Terry: 105/125
Howard: 89/123
Kidd: 112/120
Bass: 152/122
Dampier: 76/124
Wright: 137/124
Barea: 112/126

Dampier hasn't been good now for 2 years, which meant Dallas are forced to play Bass because he's at least good offensively. Nuggets get hot. Terry and Howard are terrible again for 2nd and 3rd options... Kidd not good either. What is Dirk to do here? Carry the whole offense and defense defense by himself with no help?

2010 PS:

1st round: San Antonio Spurs: 5.07 SRS (4/30)

Ortg/Drtg

Dirk: 129/106
Butler: 101/103
Terry: 104/112
Marion: 87/108
Kidd: 110/105
Haywood: 131/99
Barea: 88/107
Dampier: 77/111

Dirk massive series, but again facing a Top 5 team in the 1st round, his team is garbage, collapses and they lose.


2012 PS:

1st round: Oklahoma City Thunder: 6.44 SRS (3/30)

Ortg/Drtg

Dirk: 112/113
Terry: 109/117
Marion: 97/111
Kidd: 100/105
Carter: 76/108
West: 112/113

...

Now go look up Bird and how many times his teammates underperform offensively while simultaneously being terrible defensively. Also look up how many times Bird faced a Top 5 team in the 1st round and how many times did he face one/two contenders in the 2nd/3rd round. Then you'll know the answer why Bird had more success in the Playoffs.