RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #51 (Dwight Howard)

[Odinn21]

Please modify whenever you quote trex_8063's announcements with massive number of quotes. Do you like seeing broken pages when the fix is so easy?..

[trex_8063]

Thru post #41:

Dwight Howard - 4 (Baski, Joao Saraiva, sansterre, trex_8063)
Manu Ginobili - 2 (Dutchball97, penbeast0)
Bob Cousy - 2 (euroleague, Joe Malburg)
Kevin McHale - 1 (Hal14)
Dave Cowens - 1 (Cavsfansince84)
Sam Jones - 1 (DQuinn1575)
Adrian Dantley - 1 (Odinn21)
Giannis Antetokounmpo - 1 (freethedevil)


No new votes in awhile, and we've already exceeded the usual number for this stage, so I'm going to tally ~30 minutes early since I have the time....

13 votes requires 7 for a majority. So we'll eliminate those bottom 5, which transfers three to Howard and ghosts the other two....

Howard - 7
Manu - 2
Cousy - 2

So Dwight Howard has this spot well in hand. I'll get the next up.....

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[quote=”sansterre”].[/quote]

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[JoeMalburg]

Joe Malburg, Hal14, and euroleague, as noted in OP, please state your order on Howard/Manu/McHale (although it looks like McHale might face early exit again); it will save time on this and/or future threads to know these things.

Howard
McHale
Manu

[euroleague]

Thru post #33:

Dwight Howard - 4 (Baski, Joao Saraiva, sansterre, trex_8063)
Manu Ginobili - 2 (Dutchball97, penbeast0)
Bob Cousy - 2 (euroleague, Joe Malburg)
Kevin McHale - 1 (Hal14)
Dave Cowens - 1 (Cavsfansince84)
Adrian Dantley - 1 (Odinn21)
*Giannis Antetokounmpo - 1?? (*freethedevil)


Not sure what to do with your vote, freethedevil: it was initially Dwight > Manu > Dray, then you came in saying you’d completely forgot about Giannis and AD, and so declared a revised ballot of Ray > Giannis > Howard…….upon which you’re informed by another poster that Allen is already voted in---a post you replied to, so I know you saw it----yet you did not offer a 2nd revision. So I’m assuming Freak > Howard > Manu. You can let me know if I am in error (though do try to be more clear in the future).

Probably looking at about 8 or so more hours for this thread.
Joe Malburg, Hal14, and euroleague, as noted in OP, please state your order on Howard/Manu/McHale (although it looks like McHale might face early exit again); it will save time on this and/or future threads to know these things.
]

You keep asking me to do this... I literally have McHale in my top 3 rankings. Are you just ignoring it or something?

[trex_8063]

Thru post #33:

Dwight Howard - 4 (Baski, Joao Saraiva, sansterre, trex_8063)
Manu Ginobili - 2 (Dutchball97, penbeast0)
Bob Cousy - 2 (euroleague, Joe Malburg)
Kevin McHale - 1 (Hal14)
Dave Cowens - 1 (Cavsfansince84)
Adrian Dantley - 1 (Odinn21)
*Giannis Antetokounmpo - 1?? (*freethedevil)


Not sure what to do with your vote, freethedevil: it was initially Dwight > Manu > Dray, then you came in saying you’d completely forgot about Giannis and AD, and so declared a revised ballot of Ray > Giannis > Howard…….upon which you’re informed by another poster that Allen is already voted in---a post you replied to, so I know you saw it----yet you did not offer a 2nd revision. So I’m assuming Freak > Howard > Manu. You can let me know if I am in error (though do try to be more clear in the future).

Probably looking at about 8 or so more hours for this thread.
Joe Malburg, Hal14, and euroleague, as noted in OP, please state your order on Howard/Manu/McHale (although it looks like McHale might face early exit again); it will save time on this and/or future threads to know these things.
]

You keep asking me to do this... I literally have McHale in my top 3 rankings. Are you just ignoring it or something?

I have asked you [as you implied: several times, in fact] to give me your order between three players. What does having McHale on your ballot tell about who you rank higher between Howard and Manu?

I have asked everyone in the OP of each new thread [#52 is the first one in awhile I have not] for your order between the expected front-runners [usually three players]; I once or twice even elaborated that if you do not have at least TWO of the three expected front-runners in your picks, then I cannot know your order among them (I did so to help voters [like you] realize if they are the ones I'm speaking to).

I have frequently been asking you and others AGAIN mid-thread at the ~24-hour count to state your order.

I had also previously asked that you read the protocol in OP of the project main frame (which I even copied into the active thread about a half-dozen or so threads back), which you clearly never did.


The reason I need to know these things [which is detailed at length in the aforementioned main project thread] is because we are not automatically honoring a "default" non-majority victory; and we're allowing the registered voters who beat the vote-deadline on a thread the power of deciding whether or not these non-majority victories should be upheld [or if we need to extend things into a run-off].

[euroleague]

Thru post #33:

Dwight Howard - 4 (Baski, Joao Saraiva, sansterre, trex_8063)
Manu Ginobili - 2 (Dutchball97, penbeast0)
Bob Cousy - 2 (euroleague, Joe Malburg)
Kevin McHale - 1 (Hal14)
Dave Cowens - 1 (Cavsfansince84)
Adrian Dantley - 1 (Odinn21)
*Giannis Antetokounmpo - 1?? (*freethedevil)


Not sure what to do with your vote, freethedevil: it was initially Dwight > Manu > Dray, then you came in saying you’d completely forgot about Giannis and AD, and so declared a revised ballot of Ray > Giannis > Howard…….upon which you’re informed by another poster that Allen is already voted in---a post you replied to, so I know you saw it----yet you did not offer a 2nd revision. So I’m assuming Freak > Howard > Manu. You can let me know if I am in error (though do try to be more clear in the future).

Probably looking at about 8 or so more hours for this thread.
Joe Malburg, Hal14, and euroleague, as noted in OP, please state your order on Howard/Manu/McHale (although it looks like McHale might face early exit again); it will save time on this and/or future threads to know these things.
]

You keep asking me to do this... I literally have McHale in my top 3 rankings. Are you just ignoring it or something?

I have asked you [as you implied: several times, in fact] to give me your order between three players. What does having McHale on your ballot tell about who you rank higher between Howard and Manu?

I have asked everyone in the OP of each new thread [#52 is the first one in awhile I have not] for your order between the expected front-runners [usually three players]; I once or twice even elaborated that if you do not have at least TWO of the three expected front-runners in your picks, then I cannot know your order among them (I did so to help voters [like you] realize if they are the ones I'm speaking to).

I have frequently been asking you and others AGAIN mid-thread at the ~24-hour count to state your order.

I had also previously asked that you read the protocol in OP of the project main frame (which I even copied into the active thread about a half-dozen or so threads back), which you clearly never did.


The reason I need to know these things [which is detailed at length in the aforementioned main project thread] is because we are not automatically honoring a "default" non-majority victory; and we're allowing the registered voters who beat the vote-deadline on a thread the power of deciding whether or not these non-majority victories should be upheld [or if we need to extend things into a run-off].

I stated some time ago I have Manu over Dwight. Guess I can’t blame you on not remembering that one.

Still can’t believe Cousy and Walton, both MVPs and multiple-time champions, didn’t make the top 50

[penbeast0]

I stated some time ago I have Manu over Dwight. Guess I can’t blame you on not remembering that one.

Still can’t believe Cousy and Walton, both MVPs and multiple-time champions, didn’t make the top 50

Re: Bill Walton

Walton played 1 full season as a starter and managed one more where he played 60 games at an MVP level (and even got the MVP) but missed the playoffs as he always did. That's a 1.5 season career as a starter; every other year he crashed and burned because of his feet and was a non-factor . . . actually a major negative factor because he insisted on being paid as a potential MVP candidate for almost a decade while providing only 1 season where he gave you a real shot at a ring. He also had 1 season as a top reserve before his feet collapsed even at that lower level of minutes and impact.

He's only my short list of top 20 peaks of all time; he's not in my top 100 for career value. How do you feel about Sidney Moncrief and Fat Lever who each had 4 seasons of top 100 play but didn't offer much past those 4 years plus maybe one more as a young defensive minded guard? Connie Hawkins who also had 1.5 years of MVP play before injury but whose value outside of his one MVP/championship play was appreciably higher than Walton's (1st team All-NBA rather than SMOY after coming back from injury then a much longer career as a role player)?

[euroleague]

I stated some time ago I have Manu over Dwight. Guess I can’t blame you on not remembering that one.

Still can’t believe Cousy and Walton, both MVPs and multiple-time champions, didn’t make the top 50

Re: Bill Walton

Walton played 1 full season as a starter and managed one more where he played 60 games at an MVP level (and even got the MVP) but missed the playoffs as he always did. That's a 1.5 season career as a starter; every other year he crashed and burned because of his feet and was a non-factor . . . actually a major negative factor because he insisted on being paid as a potential MVP candidate for almost a decade while providing only 1 season where he gave you a real shot at a ring. He also had 1 season as a top reserve before his feet collapsed even at that lower level of minutes and impact.

He's only my short list of top 20 peaks of all time; he's not in my top 100 for career value. How do you feel about Sidney Moncrief and Fat Lever who each had 4 seasons of top 100 play but didn't offer much past those 4 years plus maybe one more as a young defensive minded guard? Connie Hawkins who also had 1.5 years of MVP play before injury but whose value outside of his one MVP/championship play was appreciably higher than Walton's (1st team All-NBA rather than SMOY after coming back from injury then a much longer career as a role player)?

I personally have “greatness” as distinct from career value. No, I wouldn’t want Walton for his whole career - but, I do think he was greater as a player.

Connie Hawkins was great in the ABA, and often is talked about as the OG Dr J, but the ABA was pretty suspect at that stage. I really value Walton’s college achievements as well if we were doing basketball careers, not just pro.

Fat Lever I don’t have in this conversation.

Moncrief is a great player who is often underrated in these. I’d have him shortly behind McHale, very similar to Gary Payton, around 3-5 spots lower. Elite defense, great offense in the right system, perennial contender who just never had the right pieces to beat both the 76ers and the Celtics in the same season to make the Finals.

[penbeast0]

This is purely NBA/ABA, no college or yeah, he'd be valued higher.

And remember that Connie, after a knee injury that people said might be career ending, revamped his game to go from primarily a Giannis type in the ABA to add a jump shot and came back to be 1st team All-NBA in Phoenix in his first year back from rehab before tearing up the knee again.

Fat was very underrated, up there with Jason Kidd, Magic, Oscar, Westbrook as a rebounding guard, good playmaker especially since he played a lot of 2 in those 4 seasons, 15-20ppg, one All-Defense team. One of my favorite stat lines when he went off for 30 points, 16 rebounds, 12 assists, and 6 steals against MJ, rookie Pippen, and the Chicago Bulls.

[euroleague]

This is purely NBA/ABA, no college or yeah, he'd be valued higher.

And remember that Connie, after a knee injury that people said might be career ending, revamped his game to go from primarily a Giannis type in the ABA to add a jump shot and came back to be 1st team All-NBA in Phoenix in his first year back from rehab before tearing up the knee again.

Fat was very underrated, up there with Jason Kidd, Magic, Oscar, Westbrook as a rebounding guard, good playmaker especially since he played a lot of 2 in those 4 seasons, 15-20ppg, one All-Defense team. One of my favorite stat lines when he went off for 30 points, 16 rebounds, 12 assists, and 6 steals against MJ, rookie Pippen, and the Chicago Bulls.

Fat Lever was never a championship contender or an MVP contender.

Let's use Kenny Smith's standard for "superstar" players really quick:
Kenny Smith has 6 criteria, and says being great at 3-5 makes you a superstar, being great at 2 is an all-star.
Scoring
Rebounding
Playmaking/Assists
Controlling the Pace
Leadership
Defense

Bill Walton is all-time Great at 5 of those things, and not a bad scorer either. Bill Walton's offensive impact is really overlooked... by controlling the pace, he would often get offenses into play before opposing bigs could even cross half-court. His outlet passing, halfcourt passing, and point-center play were revolutionary. He hugely elevated offenses just by controlling the pace, as well as running plays at an elite level from the high post. Elite rebounder, elite leadership, etc. etc. If there were a 3point line, like what Jokic uses to set-up plays, he likely would've been even better.

I have him in or near the top 10 peaks of all time. Connie Hawkins and Fat Lever just weren't at that level.

[penbeast0]

I agree that Walton peaked higher, top 100 peaks project, I'm backing him early. I find the rest of his career, except a 1/2 year in the next year and a year as a reserve in Boston, to be a negative.

[euroleague]

I think "greatness" has a little bit less to do with 'career value' than most people in this thread are voting like. Someone who was an all-star for 10 years wasn't an all-time great... but, someone who dominated the entire league as the best player for 1-2 years, cruising to a title and winning MVP before having tragic injuries derail his career - that's great.

Drazen Petrovic was great, despite his untimely death, for example.