[Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Lakers

[Odinn21]

I know that choices are fairly obvious for this one but can we please post some explanations for the choices?
I want to count all votes, and I know that current votes are from consistently participating users, but also want that this project doesn't turn into a something can be dumpstered with some random votes with no explanations.

[prolific passer]

I know that choices are fairly obvious for this one but can we please post some explanations for the choices?
I want to count all votes, and I know that current votes are from consistently participating users, but also want that this project doesn't turn into a something can be dumpstered with some random votes with no explanations.

Just updated mine.

[Odinn21]

I know that choices are fairly obvious for this one but can we please post some explanations for the choices?
I want to count all votes, and I know that current votes are from consistently participating users, but also want that this project doesn't turn into a something can be dumpstered with some random votes with no explanations.

Just updated mine.

Thanks a lot. Cheers.

---

My vote;

1. 1977 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
2. 2000 Shaquille O'Neal
I used to have 2000 Shaquille O'Neal as the goat single season peak but I've been leaning towards 1977 Kareem for a year now. Both are strong candidates for goat single season peak, not just limited to the Lakers franchise history. On overall, Shaq is slightly the better offensive centrepiece but Kareem's hyper efficient scoring makes the gap on offense smaller than the gap on defense.

3. 1987 Magic Johnson
A fairly safe 3rd position. Worse than the top 2 and better than the rest. I'm very critical of the competition in Western Conference being a joke but he dominated the entire season, and his historic performance against an elite team in the Celtics in the Finals helps his case greatly.

4. 1966 Jerry West
Very strong season from him. Led the league in ts and also scoring. One of the very few 4+ ts add per 36 season from him. He was extremely efficient. Even though we do not have opponent numbers to calculate his relative ts in the playoffs, I think it's safe to assume his rts went even higher in the playoffs. He was a total package with strong defense on top of that offense.

5. 2008 Kobe Bryant
A very good combination between strong individual scoring and overall offensive impact. The sweet spot between his 2006-2007 versions and 2009-2010 versions.

What put 1966 West over 2008 Bryant is defense.
What put 2008 Bryant over 2020 James for me are regular season motor and postseason competition.

HMs; 1949 George Mikan, 1963 Elgin Baylor, 1972 Wilt Chamberlain, 2020 LeBron James

[letskissbro]

Besides optics I'm not seeing what differentiates LeBron's 2020 season from an average post-2013 prime year for him. He was a top 2 player in the regular season and separated himself from everyone in the playoffs except Davis, who had a fluke hot shooting stretch. He was slower than previous James iterations which hurt his box score numbers when he was pacing himself in the regular season but the Lakers were still on pace for like 67 wins before the shutdown despite a flawed roster. His conditioning after the ASB was clearly improved and in the playoffs he compensated for whatever athletic decline by going all out with bully ball and averaged 28/11/9 on 65% TS against packed paints. He was the 2nd best defender in the playoffs after his teammate too.

I don't see how it's unreasonable for him to be placed within the top 3. I'd put his floor at 3 if anything and have him interchangeable with Shaq and Kareem. I really think the only thing keeping people from sharing a similar viewpoint is the fact that he was 35, coming off of a year where he missed the playoffs, and looked slower than we're used to seeing him for most of the season. Even for me putting a 35 year old above peak Shaq and Kareem feels weird so I'm kinda letting their 'clout' determine the order. Leaving him off for Kobe or Wilt is completely indefensible to me.

1. 2000 Shaq

2. 1977 Kareem

3. 2020 LeBron

4. 1987 Magic

5. 1966 West

[Colbinii]

I don't see how it's unreasonable for him to be placed within the top 3. I'd put his floor at 3 if anything and have him interchangeable with Shaq and Kareem. I really think the only thing keeping people from sharing this viewpoint is the fact that he was 35, coming off of a year where he missed the playoffs, and looked slower than we're used to seeing him for most of the season. Leaving him off for Kobe or Wilt is completely indefensible to me.

While I share a similar sentiment I will withhold from acting out and will keep my frustrations to myself. No opinions contradicting to mine are inaccurate

The cool thing about this project is some people are assessing this based on the entire body of work while others (like myself) are asking "Best Season" as an equivalent to "Best Championship odds"--which LeBron is undeniably ahead of guys like West and Kobe.

[Odinn21]

I don't see how it's unreasonable for him to be placed within the top 3. I'd put his floor at 3 if anything and have him interchangeable with Shaq and Kareem. I really think the only thing keeping people from sharing this viewpoint is the fact that he was 35, coming off of a year where he missed the playoffs, and looked slower than we're used to seeing him for most of the season. Leaving him off for Kobe or Wilt is completely indefensible to me.

While I share a similar sentiment I will withhold from acting out and will keep my frustrations to myself. No opinions contradicting to mine are inaccurate

The cool thing about this project is some people are assessing this based on the entire body of work while others (like myself) are asking "Best Season" as an equivalent to "Best Championship odds"--which LeBron is undeniably ahead of guys like West and Kobe.

I literally shrugged my shoulders off while typing inaccurate in the 2nd message on the topic. Inaccurate was a choice of word in a way that it's factual. I did not say it was wrong. Opinion is what makes it sound like as if there's something to be interpret it differently.

Change the name of Kareem's performance in 1977 to LeBron James and the name of LeBron's performance in 2020 to Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, or just remove the interpolated all the biases coming from another season and name as random players, and what LeBron did is not better in any way.

"Best Championship odds" is an interesting way to favour 2020 LeBron over the other guys.
2008 Bryant played 3 teams way better than any opponent 2020 James faced. Won against 2 in a very similar fashion only to be stopped by one of the goat defensive sides ever. The gap between the Jazz, the Spurs and the Celtics in 2008 and the Blazers, the Rockets, the Nuggets and the Heat in 2020 is huge.
Similar with West who lost to a far better team than any team 2020 James faced.
Similar with Abdul-Jabbar who won against an arguably better team (arguably because Butler went hot, otherwise, not so arguably) with less help, then lost to a far better team.
Then there's O'Neal who also actually won the title with better performance and higher motor in regular season, better postseason performance against way better postseason competition.

There's still M. Johnson who had a very similar trajectory to James, but then again Magic also played against a far better team in the Finals, had a performance arguably better than James against the Heat and got the win equally convincingly.

How's that interpretation of the concept helping James' case in here... Especially to be the #1 over all of them.

[Dr Positivity]

I'm also not buying the Kobe > Lebron case here. Lebron's regular season impact? The Lakers were 49-14 pre bubble with a supporting cast I wouldn't call perfect, he had Davis but the rest of the team is somewhat modest and low on shooting. Seems pretty good to me.

[HeartBreakKid]

Besides optics I'm not seeing what differentiates LeBron's 2020 season from an average post-2013 prime year for him. He was a top 2 player in the regular season and separated himself from everyone in the playoffs except Davis, who had a fluke hot shooting stretch. He was slower than previous James iterations which hurt his box score numbers when he was pacing himself in the regular season but the Lakers were still on pace for like 67 wins before the shutdown despite a flawed roster. His conditioning after the ASB was clearly improved and in the playoffs he compensated for whatever athletic decline by going all out with bully ball and averaged 28/11/9 on 65% TS against packed paints. He was the 2nd best defender in the playoffs after his teammate too.

I don't see how it's unreasonable for him to be placed within the top 3. I'd put his floor at 3 if anything and have him interchangeable with Shaq and Kareem. I really think the only thing keeping people from sharing a similar viewpoint is the fact that he was 35, coming off of a year where he missed the playoffs, and looked slower than we're used to seeing him for most of the season. Even for me putting a 35 year old above peak Shaq and Kareem feels weird so I'm kinda letting their 'clout' determine the order. Leaving him off for Kobe or Wilt is completely indefensible to me.

1. 2000 Shaq

2. 1977 Kareem

3. 2020 LeBron

4. 1987 Magic

5. 1966 West

I have a similar line of thinking.

When I made my first vote I had made a huge paragraph how Shaq wins out the peak battles because Abdul-Jabar and James weren't in their peaks in LA. Then I thought about how I am basically being affected by a narrative more so than true facts, and looked into it more, and it's difficult for me to assess any true separation between James seasons.

So if I think that generally speaking James is better than O'Neal, and LA James certainly does all the things that any other version of James would do to support that, then I kind of "have" to put James above O'Neal. If anything reputation was affecting me to rate James lower than what I probably should have.

To me Shaq, Kareem and James are the top 3 guys in LA. Shaq is kind of my "floor" guy for that tier. So we might have the same premise.

[LukaTheGOAT]

Glad to finally participate. Thanks for inviting me Odinn.

1. 2000 Shaq-Top 3 Peak of all-time. Scored on more volume but less efficiency (relative to era) than Kareem. Him and Kareem are about the same level as defenders I think, but Shaq benefits from playing in the 3 point era. He led better offenses in part because when he would get double teamed, he could kick out to shooters to 3 pointers for extra points, while Kareem was forced to kick it out to shooters for only 2 points (no 3 point line).

2. 1977 Kareem- Top 5 peak ever. Top 3 scoring PS run of all-time. Great defensive anchor. He is lower to Shaq quite possibly due to playing in an era with no 3 point line, and therefore he didn't quite have the same spacing. Him and Shaq are very similar in review.

3. 1987 Magic-Honestly, I’m not certain if he should be ahead of West, but Magic’s floor-raising exploits in 88 and 89 gave me more confidence putting Magic this high. Even as his offensive cast got older, Magic continued to churn out elite offenses, and his teams were able to get more separation from the pack in terms of relative offense compared to West.

4. 1966 Jerry West -Surprise to some, but simply just justice to me. There are multiple years you can pick from, but simply put, this is a top 6 scorer ever going to work at his peak. Think of him as Stephen Curry with all-nba level defense at his position, but without the 3 point line to bolster his volume and efficiency even more. The thing is, West still comes away to me looking as a better scorer. The real question for me, is just how valuable was his playmaking because since the game was much less spaced, there were less opportunities available to be created and therefore pinpointing is exact offensive value is a bit tricky. West was in an era not favorable for guards; if he comes around later. If he comes around later, West likely would’ve benefitted an peaked higher than 87 Magic. They are close nonetheless and it should also be noted that West is more portable than magic. West is one of the few superstars ever to IMPROVE their scoring in the PS Backpicks GOAT: #17 Jerry West | Back Picks

5. 2020 Lebron-Idk what to make of 2020 Lebron. I can see him being above Magic and the metrics we have would support putting him ahead of Magic in terms of PS performance. Backpicks BPM, PIPM, RAPTOR (and by the same metrics could compete with Shaq and Kareem). However, as santerre mentioned, his RS to me is well below that of Magic’s. Idk how much I should glean from that, especially since he was going half speed. However, I’ll be conservative and put him lower, because I just wonder how his scoring might due against tougher defenses. He fried Miami who was great in the PS, but then there were series like Houston and Denver where he was good but maybe not otherworldly, but once again I wonder how much he was challenged. I also believe there could be things that Magic does as a facilitator that are less likely to be picked up in the box-score. The 3-5 range here is arguable to me.

06/08/09 Kobe is someone I could see in the #5 spot in place of Lebron. But in the end, he missed the cut.

[LukaTheGOAT]

There are eight players that merit serious consideration.

'61 Baylor was my first cut. He's amazing, and he'd be at the top of a lot of teams. I don't see how he gets in here. If you slant against older seasons, you probably like '09 Kobe better. If you don't slant against older seasons, '49 Mikan and '66 West are probably better. Which sucks, because Baylor was great.

'49 Mikan was my second cut. Objectively, he should be in the conversation for the top. He threw up 20+ Win Shares and shot +15.1% in the playoffs. On paper it's as good a season as ever happened. But in a fairly diluted league with a limited player pool to draw on . . . there is an asterisk. I may be off here. But he was my last cut.

'20 LeBron . . . His playoffs were comparable to the best we see here. But his regular season (even adjusted for season length) is eighth of all of these. I could see the argument for putting '20 LeBron higher . . . but the regular seasons here are so nuts I can't really ignore them.

#5. 2009 Kobe Bryant - Some posters have called me out on not having an appropriate amount of appreciation for Kobe. And perhaps that's so; I'm certainly lower on him than most. But it's impossible not to love his 2009. 12.7 Win Shares, 5.9 VORP, +6.8 AuRPM and +7.4 OBPM in the playoffs. It was the culmination of a fantastic career. I have a soft spot in my heart for this season. There are strong arguments that it shouldn't be in the top 5. Alas.

#4. 1966 Jerry West - Maybe Mikan should be here. But remember, this West season happened *seventeen* years after the Mikan season. West played in a much denser league against better competition. He threw up 17.1 Win Shares and shot at +9.4% in the playoffs. And he took the Celtics to seven games in the Finals, throwing up a 36/10/3 in the Game 7 that the Lakers lost by 2. I think it's better than Baylor's '61, and I don't think there's a way to leave it off the list.

#3. 1987 Magic Johnson - Couldn't really put this lower or higher.

#2. 2000 Shaquille O'Neal

#1. 1977 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

The two are almost identical metrics-wise:

Win Shares: Shaq 18.6, Kareem 17.8
VORP: Shaq 9.0, Kareem 8.7
AuRPM: Shaq +8.4, Kareem ?
Playoffs: Kareem +9.6 OBPM, Shaq +8.0

At the end of the day Kareem's absolutely insane playoffs are what did it for me. In his first series, defended by a young Robert Parish, he averaged a 37/19/4 on +12.9%. In his second series he averaged a 30/16/4 on 14.9%. And he was defended by Bill freaking Walton. And Kareem averaged 3.5+ blocks per game in both.

2000 Shaq was amazing. And I don't think people are wrong who argue that '00 Shaq should be first.

But I'd put that '77 Kareem against pretty much anyone.

First I just wanted to say awesome post.

I was curious what is AuRPM? Is it related to RPM in anyway? Also is there a place to learn more about it? Thanks.

[70sFan]

Glad to finally participate. Thanks for inviting me Odinn.

1. 2000 Shaq-Top 3 Peak of all-time. Scored on more volume but less efficiency (relative to era) than Kareem. Him and Kareem are about the same level as defenders I think, but Shaq benefits from playing in the 3 point era. He led better offenses in part because when he would get double teamed, he could kick out to shooters to 3 pointers for extra points, while Kareem was forced to kick it out to shooters for only 2 points (no 3 point line).

2. 1977 Kareem- Top 5 peak ever. Top 3 scoring PS run of all-time. Great defensive anchor. He is lower to Shaq quite possibly due to playing in an era with no 3 point line, and therefore he didn't quite have the same spacing. Him and Shaq are very similar in review.

3. 1987 Magic-Honestly, I’m not certain if he should be ahead of West, but Magic’s floor-raising exploits in 88 and 89 gave me more confidence putting Magic this high. Even as his offensive cast got older, Magic continued to churn out elite offenses, and his teams were able to get more separation from the pack in terms of relative offense compared to West.

4. 1966 Jerry West -Surprise to some, but simply just justice to me. There are multiple years you can pick from, but simply put, this is a top 6 scorer ever going to work at his peak. Think of him as Stephen Curry with all-nba level defense at his position, but without the 3 point line to bolster his volume and efficiency even more. The thing is, West still comes away to me looking as a better scorer. The real question for me, is just how valuable was his playmaking because since the game was much less spaced, there were less opportunities available to be created and therefore pinpointing is exact offensive value is a bit tricky. West was in an era not favorable for guards; if he comes around later. If he comes around later, West likely would’ve benefitted an peaked higher than 87 Magic. They are close nonetheless and it should also be noted that West is more portable than magic. West is one of the few superstars ever to IMPROVE their scoring in the PS Backpicks GOAT: #17 Jerry West | Back Picks

5. 2020 Lebron-Idk what to make of 2020 Lebron. I can see him being above Magic and the metrics we have would support putting him ahead of Magic in terms of PS performance. Backpicks BPM, PIPM, RAPTOR (and by the same metrics could compete with Shaq and Kareem). However, as santerre mentioned, his RS to me is well below that of Magic’s. Idk how much I should glean from that, especially since he was going half speed. However, I’ll be conservative and put him lower, because I just wonder how his scoring might due against tougher defenses. He fried Miami who was great in the PS, but then there were series like Houston and Denver where he was good but maybe not otherworldly, but once again I wonder how much he was challenged. I also believe there could be things that Magic does as a facilitator that are less likely to be picked up in the box-score. The 3-5 range here is arguable to me.

06/08/09 Kobe is someone I could see in the #5 spot in place of Lebron. But in the end, he missed the cut.

Excellent post all-around, I do have one question though. Why do you think that Shaq was on the same level defensively as 1977 Kareem?

[TroubleS0me]

I'm also not buying the Kobe > Lebron case here. Lebron's regular season impact? The Lakers were 49-14 pre bubble with a supporting cast I wouldn't call perfect, he had Davis but the rest of the team is somewhat modest and low on shooting. Seems pretty good to me.

Same. Probably some bias involve....

[70sFan]

I'm also not buying the Kobe > Lebron case here. Lebron's regular season impact? The Lakers were 49-14 pre bubble with a supporting cast I wouldn't call perfect, he had Davis but the rest of the team is somewhat modest and low on shooting. Seems pretty good to me.

Same. Probably some bias involve....

I don't have Kobe higher than James, because I simply think that James was better player in 2020 than Kobe ever was, but Kobe does have more complete season all-around in 2008. You don't need to accuse anyone of being biased because he doesn't have past prime LeBron on the most talented franchise top 5 in NBA history. I think that Mikan and Wilt can also be argued over James.

[TroubleS0me]

I'm also not buying the Kobe > Lebron case here. Lebron's regular season impact? The Lakers were 49-14 pre bubble with a supporting cast I wouldn't call perfect, he had Davis but the rest of the team is somewhat modest and low on shooting. Seems pretty good to me.

Same. Probably some bias involve....

I don't have Kobe higher than James, because I simply think that James was better player in 2020 than Kobe ever was, but Kobe does have more complete season all-around in 2008. You don't need to accuse anyone of being biased because he doesn't have past prime LeBron on the most talented franchise top 5 in NBA history. I think that Mikan and Wilt can also be argued over James.

yes thats the objective answer

[70sFan]

Same. Probably some bias involve....

I don't have Kobe higher than James, because I simply think that James was better player in 2020 than Kobe ever was, but Kobe does have more complete season all-around in 2008. You don't need to accuse anyone of being biased because he doesn't have past prime LeBron on the most talented franchise top 5 in NBA history. I think that Mikan and Wilt can also be argued over James.

yes thats the objective answer

Not everyone are on the same page here though.

[falcolombardi]

to talk a bit of kobe (2008 since that ia the consensus pick so far) vs 2020 lebron

i consider myself high on kobe, he is a playoffs resilient offensive engine that led excelent team offense results

but somethingh that gives me some "noise" is that 2008 lebron, a much more athletic but way less skilled or experienced version. outscored the 2008 celtics (the hawks went to 7 but heavily outscored) amd took them to 7

a clearlt better result than kobe despite not having a pau gasol level teammate

that gives me some pause with 2008 kobe, then again his seasom was fantastic and 2008 celtics were all time great in regular season so them beating lakers with moderate difficulty maybe have been the normal result ans celtics strugles with hawks or cavs a weird anomaly

i may also be tempted by 2009 kobe instead, he beat a excelent team in wcf (nuggets) that arguably was not far off from 2008 spurs then dominated against a super elite (if a full level below 2008 celtics) orlando defense instead of relatively struggling as in 2008

lakers with kobe on court scored 13 points better vs orlando per 100 which goes way beyond the difference between 2008 boston and 2009 orlando and may make me prefer 2009 year

[Sark]

If you got Lebron in your top 5, how do you not have Davis in your top 5 as well? They were basically a 1A/1B last year.

[HeartBreakKid]

If you have Kareem how can you not have Magic?

If you have Shaq how can you not have Kobe?

If you have West how can you not have Baylor?

Only 5 guys can fit in a top 5. the short answer is that people think James is better than Davis.

[Colbinii]

If you got Lebron in your top 5, how do you not have Davis in your top 5 as well? They were basically a 1A/1B last year.

I have them as a clear 1 and 2 with a tier separating them.

[Sark]

If you got Lebron in your top 5, how do you not have Davis in your top 5 as well? They were basically a 1A/1B last year.

I have them as a clear 1 and 2 with a tier separating them.

Not sure how you have a full tier between them. Davis had the better regular season stats, and in the playoffs, he was the better player in 2 of the 4 series. It was really a 1A/1B year. After the first 2 games of the finals, many people thought that AD might win the FMVP. It wasn't until he had a bad game 3, that Lebron sealed the FMVP.