RealGM Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #1 - 1990-91 Michael Jordan

[ty 4191]

Since nobody has ranked Wilt 1967 in their top 3 yet, this bears mentioning:

Read on Twitter

[Dutchball97]

Since nobody has ranked Wilt 1967 in their top 3 yet, this bears mentioning:

Read on Twitter

I went into the project expecting Wilt to be my number 2 behind Jordan but I moved him down slightly because more questions came up for me with his 67 season than for either LeBron or Shaq's best seasons. The first thing that stands out to me is that Wilt having agency not correlating to success. Against the Royals the only game they lost is where Wilt shot the most out of all the games in the series (and the entire play-offs), against the Celtics they only lost the game where Wilt shot the most out of the series and against the Warriors they lost the two games where Wilt shot the most out of the series. Overall the 76ers were 2-4 when Wilt shot 15 or more times, while they were undefeated (9-0) when he shot under 15 times. Especialy game 3-5 in the finals where the 76ers lost with Wilt shooting 23 times, then won with him taking only 6 shots and then lost again when he shot 15 times is hard to ignore.

Bill Russell for example also has some series where he lost the games where he shot more often because just like with Wilt in 67, the moment you have to rely on them going off on the offensive end things probably aren't going smoothly to begin with. You see this come to light especially obviously in the 64 finals. The Celtics won the 4 games where Russell took between 8 and 11 shots but lost the one game where he shot 19. Russell never had an entire play-offs where this happened as systematically as with Wilt in 67 though. Especially since it was the first year Wilt took a serious step down in volume it seems like he might've still been looking for the right balance.

His 2-17 FT shooting in game 2 of the finals doesn't help either, especially when it is arguably worse than even Shaq ever did in the play-offs from the line (although there are some 1-9, 0-8 and 0-7 statlines to be found towards the beginning and end of his prime). To be honest his free throw shooting was off for pretty much the entire finals.

Overall there isn't really too much negative I can say about Wilt's 67 season but this just sowed enough doubt in me that I moved Shaq and LeBron ahead. I still expect to have Wilt as the 4th guy on my ballot though.

[Gregoire]

Just for discussion I'll copypaste my post from old topic about Jordan's advantages in peak MJ vs peak LeBron comparison. it seems like LeBron and Shaq will be main opponents for MJ to take 1st spot.

Jordan 90-92 vs Lebron 2012-2013:
- Overall better offensive player.
- Better scorer, more volume and more efficient one , so best scorer overall, more versatile scorer, less weaknesses.
- Biggest mismatch for the team, so best creator for himself and teammates in halfcourt because of his uncanny ability to split doubles, triples and to outplay 2,3,4 defenders in one play, better gravity effect
- Great passer and playmaker (worse than Lebron), but less TO prone.
- Much better off-ball player and shooter, so create the spacing, better FT shooter
- Better stamina, health and durability
- Better handles and hands in halfcourt, more creative
- Obviously better intangibles, sense of the moment, wll to win, motor, mentality and huge clutch factor (maybe the best ever)
- Much more quick desicion-making, less time with the ball
- Very good help defender and versatile one, better man defender, overall defense capability - tied or slight edge to Lebron, but MJ had better motor.


Jordan 90-92 vs Lebron 2016-2018:
- Overall better offensive player.
- Better scorer, more volume and more efficient one , so best scorer overall, more versatile scorer, less weaknesses (Lebron 16-18 is better than 12-13, but MJ still better).
- Biggest mismatch for the team, so best creator for himself and teammates in halfcourt because of his uncanny ability to split doubles, triples and to outplay 2,3,4 defenders in one play, better gravity effect
- Great passer and playmaker (worse than Lebron), but less TO prone.
- Better off-ball player and shooter, so create the spacing, better FT shooter
- Better stamina, health and durability
- Better handles and hands in halfcourt, more creative
- Better intangibles (not so obvious, but still), sense of the moment, wll to win, motor, mentality and huge clutch factor (maybe the best ever)
- Much more quick desicion-making, less time with the ball
- Very good help defender and versatile one, better man defender, overall defense capability - tied or slight edge to Lebron, but MJ had much better motor.

[falcolombardi]

1. 1991 MJ - All around great season, all nba first team and defense, led in scoring beat the 2x defending champion, beat the guy who finished 2nd in MVP voting on an all time great team for a franchise that never won before and drafted him and was the only allstar on the squad.

2. 1971 Kareem - 2nd year in the league won league mvp, finals mvp for a franchise that never won before and drafted him.

3. 1994 Hakeem - MVP, DPOY the same year, won title for franchise that never won before and that drafted him and didn't switch teams to win.

sorry but what the f**k?

scottie pippen was a star, the "only star on his team" argument applies to 94 hakeem, not to 91 jordan

jordan is great enough there is no need to make up this stuff to prop him up lol, jordan doesnt need pippen diminished to be argued as the goat

[Djoker]

1. 1991 Jordan - I feel like there isn't a lot to say here that hasn't already been said. Just an unreal regular season and playoffs with insane basic box and advance box. Unreal combination of scoring volume, efficiency, creation and turnover rate along with his offensive impact on the Bulls leaves little doubt for me that peak MJ is the best offensive player of all time. And then you add the fact that he's among the greatest defenders ever at the guard position and he's simply the greatest player ever at his peak. This season was the apex along with 1990 and 1989 although this version is a title winning season which further validates it. There is really nothing to nitpick about MJ's play and at the highest level little imperfections matter.

2. 1977 Kareem - Now this is a pick that I feel requires justification. Why Kareem > Shaq and why 1977?

In terms of rTS, Kareem blows Shaq out of the water. He's a 70% free throw shooter and has the sky hook so he is the most valuable during crunch time of all the top centers. Kareem is a more active defender. He can't foul out entire frontcourts but on the other hand he has no exploitable weaknesses. Shaq's weakness in P&R defense was exploited by many teams namely the Kings and Spurs and teams resorted to Hack-a-Shaq in crunch time. In the 2000 Finals Shaq shot 38% from the line and missed a whopping 57 free throws in that series.

In fact late 70's Kareem IMO is the most perfect basketball player in history apart from MJ and the most perfect big man ever.

Even though he didn't win a title, based on all the evidence, I strongly feel that 1977 Kareem is the best basketball player ever to play in the NBA aside from peak Jordan.

Per 75 Regular Season Stats:
1977 Kareem: 24.5 pts, 12.5 reb (3.0 o), 3.6 ass, 3.0 blk, 1.1 stl on 60.8 %TS (+9.7 rTS) with ? to
2000 Shaq: 28.6 pts, 13.1 reb (4.1 o), 3.7 ass, 2.9 blk, 0.5 stl on 57.8 %TS (+5.5 rTS) with 2.7 to

Per 75 Playoff Stats:
1977 Kareem: 28.4 pts, 14.6 reb (3.8 o), 3.4 ass, 2.9 blk, 1.4 stl on 64.6 %TS (+13.5 rTS) with ? to
2000 Shaq: 28.2 pts, 14.2 reb (4.7 o), 2.9 ass, 2.2 blk, 0.5 stl on 55.6 %TS (+3.3 rTS) with 2.3 to

That efficiency really jumps out at you! And given Kareem's lack of weaknesses and more active defense I don't see how he doesn't get a nod over Shaq for me. It's not a slam dunk or anything but I have more faith that peak Kareem is the better basketball player.

The reason I pick this version of Kareem over 1971 and 1974 is that he's a lot thicker and more capable of dealing with physicality than in his Bucks' days. Unlike his early career, he weighed around 260 lbs so could also bang with big centers. And in 1979/1980 he's still the same guy offensively but has lost a little bit of motor and become a worse rebounder and also started cruising in the regular season a bit too much to be among the GOAT peaks.

3. 2000 Shaq

I take 2000 Shaq over 1967 Wilt who was hard to believe an even worse free throw shooter. And unlike Shaq he legitimately struggled against Nate Thurmond in the 1967 Finals offensively. Wilt is by far the better defender but in terms of scoring it isn't close. Wilt did his best Bill Russell impersonation in his peak season more than a Shaq impersonation. And quite honestly at the risk of offending old school Wilt fans, I'm just not totally sold on Wilt from the eye test. I've watched all the available footage on the internet. His footwork in the post seems rudimentary and while he is an athletic goliath maybe the most athletic basketball player ever considering his size, he rarely went at people the way Shaq did with physicality. And it's shame too because he could have been better than he was just with a more aggressive mentality. When defenses boxed him out and came back in transition, Wilt just doesn't seem like an effective offensive force in the halfcourt comparable to Shaq. He would resort to fadeaways or just hold the ball and meekly pass it out instead of taking it strong for two points.

I also take Shaq over Lebron just for the sheer dominance although I do flip-flop between the two and can see a case for 2009/2012 Lebron over peak Shaq although I still think gun to my head I'd go with Shaq simply because of his gravity and how he opens the floor for shooters. I see all three of Shaq/Wilt/Lebron as very close peak wise. Imperfect players but seriously dominant to be among the greatest peaks ever. Shaq played at a similar level in the 2001 and 2002 postseasons but never had a complete campaign comparable to 2000 and that whole season he was consistently unreal start to finish.

[ceiling raiser]

Question for people choosing MJ -

If we had data demonstrating that MJ at his best had a comparable defensive impact (in terms of DRAPM, or defense on/off the court, or other data) to Kobe, how would it impact your selection of his early 90s seasons as GOAT peak?

[giordunk]

I still always think it's literally impossible for 2009 LeBron to be the best LeBron.

[capfan33]

Since nobody has ranked Wilt 1967 in their top 3 yet, this bears mentioning:

Read on Twitter

I went into the project expecting Wilt to be my number 2 behind Jordan but I moved him down slightly because more questions came up for me with his 67 season than for either LeBron or Shaq's best seasons. The first thing that stands out to me is that Wilt having agency not correlating to success. Against the Royals the only game they lost is where Wilt shot the most out of all the games in the series (and the entire play-offs), against the Celtics they only lost the game where Wilt shot the most out of the series and against the Warriors they lost the two games where Wilt shot the most out of the series. Overall the 76ers were 2-4 when Wilt shot 15 or more times, while they were undefeated (9-0) when he shot under 15 times. Especialy game 3-5 in the finals where the 76ers lost with Wilt shooting 23 times, then won with him taking only 6 shots and then lost again when he shot 15 times is hard to ignore.

Actually really interesting/insightful observation, notes like this are why I wanted to participate in the project.

[capfan33]

Question for people choosing MJ -

If we had data demonstrating that MJ at his best had a comparable defensive impact (in terms of DRAPM, or defense on/off the court, or other data) to Kobe, how would it impact your selection of his early 90s seasons as GOAT peak?

I would take Lebron over him, albeit by a slight margin and he would be a tossup with Shaq.

[capfan33]

2. Lebron '12 - While many argued '09 should be his peak due to his crazy playoff stat. I don't. '09 is an outliner in my book, the same as '88 Hakeem. '09 Lebron beat nobody. Chaucey 'Pistons? Joe Johnson Hawks? Come on . He got smack by Dwight's Magics because his team got exposed, largely due to him demanding the ball all the times. Thus it was easy for him to rack up insane stat because the Magics series were never under his control. He literally put up empty stat in a losing effort against a team that aren't even good to begin with. Magic lost 4-1 to Kobe's Lakers. People argue ''12 or '13 as his true peak which I agree. Lebron by this time is a much complete player. '12 he wanted "revenge" and for the first time he actually played alpha to Wade. They also beat a very impressive KD, Westbrook, Harden OKC juggernaut in a very convincing matter, similar to how '91 Jordan Bulls beat everyone, regardless of how other teams compete. '13 is a good case but he got "lucky" that Pop made a mistake at the last second of Game 6; otherwise we wouldn't be sitting here debating whether '12 vs '13 as his true peak. I favored '12 for simple fact that Lebron was in total control of his destiny.

I feel like Colts18 has done way to much work regarding 2009 Lebron to just let this slide, and moreover the Magic were the #2 defense in the league and 4th in SRS, they were a very good team by any standard. And his team did get "exposed," because they sucked lol.

[falcolombardi]

Question for people choosing MJ -

If we had data demonstrating that MJ at his best had a comparable defensive impact (in terms of DRAPM, or defense on/off the court, or other data) to Kobe, how would it impact your selection of his early 90s seasons as GOAT peak?

it wouldbt be the end all/be all but it probably would make me lower on him if i moved his defense from "all D wing" to "solid defender"

he would be """only""" a magic level peak at that point with similar longevity

[Dr Positivity]

1. Lebron James 2013 (b - 2012, c - 2016)
2. Michael Jordan 1991 (b - 1992, c - 1990)
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 1977 (b - 1974, c - 1972)

I view these as the three players who truly separated themselves from everyone else in their generation in shot clock era, all of which had great playoff runs. Since they played at different times, rather than pick between them I will rank them based on which era was the most recent.

2009 Lebron is the best regular season in NBA history however by Miami years his post game and shooting was better and he was more experienced. While in 2009 his stats weren't great, against 2010 Celtics defense we saw how first run Cavs Lebron could have used more skill polish. He is better on defense with the Heat than the Cavs although 16 finals is probably the best overall version of Lebron. He also had better spacing on the Cavs to help him on offense.

[falcolombardi]

wheb voting ends i would love to know if lebron could have been first had all votes for him been to the same season

[ardee]

1. Lebron James 2013 (b - 2012, c - 2016)
2. Michael Jordan 1991 (b - 1992, c - 1990)
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 1977 (b - 1974, c - 1972)

I view these as the three players who truly separated themselves from everyone else in their generation in shot clock era, all of which had great playoff runs. Since they played at different times, rather than pick between them I will rank them based on which era was the most recent.

2009 Lebron is the best regular season in NBA history however by Miami years his post game and shooting was better and he was more experienced. While in 2009 his stats weren't great, against 2010 Celtics defense we saw how first run Cavs Lebron could have used more skill polish. He is better on defense with the Heat than the Cavs although 16 finals is probably the best overall version of Lebron. He also had better spacing on the Cavs to help him on offense.

Couple things:

1. How do you reconcile choosing 2013 LeBron over other seasons given his relatively weaker Playoff performance?

2. Why Kareem over Shaq/Hakeem/Wilt?

[Dr Positivity]

1. Lebron James 2013 (b - 2012, c - 2016)
2. Michael Jordan 1991 (b - 1992, c - 1990)
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 1977 (b - 1974, c - 1972)

I view these as the three players who truly separated themselves from everyone else in their generation in shot clock era, all of which had great playoff runs. Since they played at different times, rather than pick between them I will rank them based on which era was the most recent.

2009 Lebron is the best regular season in NBA history however by Miami years his post game and shooting was better and he was more experienced. While in 2009 his stats weren't great, against 2010 Celtics defense we saw how first run Cavs Lebron could have used more skill polish. He is better on defense with the Heat than the Cavs although 16 finals is probably the best overall version of Lebron. He also had better spacing on the Cavs to help him on offense.

Couple things:

1. How do you reconcile choosing 2013 LeBron over other seasons given his relatively weaker Playoff performance?

2. Why Kareem over Shaq/Hakeem/Wilt?

I don't really have a problem with 2013 Lebron's playoff performance, actually his overall playoff numbers in 2016 aren't that much better despite elite level spacing the first three rounds. I guess I could be talked into 2012 over 2013 though.

Kareem dominates his era more than any of them and is the Jordan/Lebron of his time. He is also better on D than Shaq and better on offense than Hakeem. In Wilt's case it might not be his fault though as he had to play against Russell while Kareem's competition was not as strong.

[homecourtloss]

1. 1991 MJ - All around great season, all nba first team and defense, led in scoring beat the 2x defending champion, beat the guy who finished 2nd in MVP voting on an all time great team for a franchise that never won before and drafted him and was the only allstar on the squad.

2. 1971 Kareem - 2nd year in the league won league mvp, finals mvp for a franchise that never won before and drafted him.

3. 1994 Hakeem - MVP, DPOY the same year, won title for franchise that never won before and that drafted him and didn't switch teams to win.

sorry but what the f**k?

scottie pippen was a star, the "only star on his team" argument applies to 94 hakeem, not to 91 jordan

jordan is great enough there is no need to make up this stuff to prop him up lol, jordan doesnt need pippen diminished to be argued as the goat

At minimum, Pippen was a top 10 impact player in 1991 and probably higher. And, since the poster who posted this likes anecdotal comments, Magic Johnson, though no oracle of analysis, in 1992 while calling the NBA Finals mentioned that if you have Pippen and Jordan on the floor, you’re going to win. Jordan had at minimum top 10 player playing with him every season from 1991 to 1998.

2. Lebron '12 - While many argued '09 should be his peak due to his crazy playoff stat. I don't. '09 is an outliner in my book, the same as '88 Hakeem. '09 Lebron beat nobody. Chaucey 'Pistons? Joe Johnson Hawks? Come on . He got smack by Dwight's Magics because his team got exposed, largely due to him demanding the ball all the times. Thus it was easy for him to rack up insane stat because the Magics series were never under his control. He literally put up empty stat in a losing effort against a team that aren't even good to begin with. Magic lost 4-1 to Kobe's Lakers. People argue ''12 or '13 as his true peak which I agree. Lebron by this time is a much complete player. '12 he wanted "revenge" and for the first time he actually played alpha to Wade. They also beat a very impressive KD, Westbrook, Harden OKC juggernaut in a very convincing matter, similar to how '91 Jordan Bulls beat everyone, regardless of how other teams compete. '13 is a good case but he got "lucky" that Pop made a mistake at the last second of Game 6; otherwise we wouldn't be sitting here debating whether '12 vs '13 as his true peak. I favored '12 for simple fact that Lebron was in total control of his destiny.

I feel like Colts18 has done way to much work regarding 2009 Lebron to just let this slide, and moreover the Magic were the #2 defense in the league and 4th in SRS, they were a very good team by any standard. And his team did get "exposed," because they sucked lol.

The whole post is weird. Jordan (whole bunch of positive things), Shaq (whole bunch of positive things), LeBron (even though #2, whole bunch of shots taken against him ) A +8.9 rORtg in that series vs. a great defense and the blame is that he wanted the ball in hands all the time (as opposed to not sure whose) is really wild.

[MyUniBroDavis]

Jordan 90-92 vs Lebron 2016-2018:
- Overall better offensive player.
- Better scorer, more volume and more efficient one , so best scorer overall, more versatile scorer, less weaknesses (Lebron 16-18 is better than 12-13, but MJ still better)

.

I think Lebron in 2017 and 2018 was clearly a better scorer than MJ in the playoffs, and their efficiencies in 2016 vs 1991 playoffs are about equal once you take into account lebrons “volleyball misses” that he himself did (although we don’t have the data to do that with Mj of course)

- Biggest mismatch for the team, so best creator for himself and teammates in halfcourt because of his uncanny ability to split doubles, triples and to outplay 2,3,4 defenders in one play, better gravity effect

Is this Lebron or Jordan? I’d agree Jordan was a better scorer in the halfcourt but bron had about as much rim gravity as Centers did (and more than any driving players) with the caveat that you can’t collapse on him as hard because he always finds the open man

Read on Twitter

/photo/1

Great passer and playmaker (worse than Lebron), but less TO prone.

I’d say there’s still a pretty large gap between them as playmakers though

Better off-ball player and shooter, so create the spacing, better FT shooter

Heavily disagree here. Jordan wasn’t better from three, Lebron was an extremely effective cutter but more
Importantly off ball Lebron is more versatile than Jordan because he is essentially one of the best scoring+playmaking roll men in nba history because he’s essentially a big with his height with top tier finishing athleticism and passing

Better handles and hands in halfcourt, more creative Much more quick desicion-making, less time with the ball

I would say lebron in the playoffs runs the offense more and is probably a top tier floor general in nba history, whereas MJ is more someone that doesn’t break the mold in that aspect

- Very good help defender and versatile one, better man defender, overall defense capability - tied or slight edge to Lebron, but MJ had much better motor.

So here’s my larger issue

Offensively I think that having Peak MJ over Playoff bron is reasonable and I wouldn’t disagree with 2016, although I take bron in 2017 or 2018

Otoh, I’m really perplexed by this one. Lebron was certainly a better help defender, in the 2016 run he was probably their best rim protector overall, whereas MJ was more of a, pop in and go for the steal type

In his two years he was great throughout the season on defense (2015 and 2016)
He gave up 0.7ppp on isos in 2015 (0.729ppp playoffs), 0.604 in 2016 (0.5ppp playoffs)

The marks in 2015 put him as elite, the mark in 2016 puts him as hyper elite

The 2016 mark in particular is at a genuine hyper elite+ level, so I don’t see how this is an equalizer for MJ.

More importantly, we see from a results based standpoint that Lebron had high defensive tier impact, whereas Jordan leaving his team didn’t really effect his teams defense much at all

I agree that Jordan was an elite defender of course, but I don’t see how they’re all to close on that end. Jordan’s team were mildly better the year he left and not too strong defenders came in, whereas lebrons team over those an 18 game sample through 2015 and 2016 were a worst defensive team in the nba type without him. (RS)

And then in the 2016 playoffs specifically by all Indications he stepped it up considerably

Essentially, I don’t think there’s any evidence that Jordan the two were particularly close defensively even in the regular season. Come playoff time the gap widens, and beyond that we’ve seen lebron hit defensive peaks that Jordan couldn’t really get close to either

As a man defender bron being a genuine can guard all 5 guys at an elite level except like, towering great offensive big men, gives him more value as well

From a defensive perspective lebron provides more, both from a day to day perspective, impact perspective, and especially from a versatility perspective

In the years that lebrons Rs defense waned, we see his playoff offense reach new heights as well

In regards to 2016 lebron vs 1991 Jordan, I think it comes down to if think the offensive is far superior to the defensive gap.

As it stands for me from an impact and ability perspective, one guy defensively is a DPOY level guy as a whole (in the playoffs especially), and over the whole season probably, and the other guy is more so an elite perimeter defender.

From a playoff perspective it’s hard for me to say the offensive gap can be thaaat big, given how good lebrons offense was and more importantly their teams Dominance, I think the only way it makes sense is if you say lebron should have “forced more usage” which is a critique people have on him in the first place.

To be clear, I’m not against the Jordan>lebron on offense take at all even with what I said earlier, but I don’t really think it bridges the defensive gap, Jordan from an evidential perspective can be graded out as a strong perimeter defender on an impact basis, whereas lebrons are more consistent with a tier or two higher than that.

[MyUniBroDavis]

1. Lebron James 2013 (b - 2012, c - 2016)
2. Michael Jordan 1991 (b - 1992, c - 1990)
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 1977 (b - 1974, c - 1972)

I view these as the three players who truly separated themselves from everyone else in their generation in shot clock era, all of which had great playoff runs. Since they played at different times, rather than pick between them I will rank them based on which era was the most recent.

2009 Lebron is the best regular season in NBA history however by Miami years his post game and shooting was better and he was more experienced. While in 2009 his stats weren't great, against 2010 Celtics defense we saw how first run Cavs Lebron could have used more skill polish. He is better on defense with the Heat than the Cavs although 16 finals is probably the best overall version of Lebron. He also had better spacing on the Cavs to help him on offense.

Couple things:

1. How do you reconcile choosing 2013 LeBron over other seasons given his relatively weaker Playoff performance?

2. Why Kareem over Shaq/Hakeem/Wilt?

I don't really have a problem with 2013 Lebron's playoff performance, actually his overall playoff numbers in 2016 aren't that much better despite elite level spacing the first three rounds. I guess I could be talked into 2012 over 2013 though.

Kareem dominates his era more than any of them and is the Jordan/Lebron of his time. He is also better on D than Shaq and better on offense than Hakeem. In Wilt's case it might not be his fault though as he had to play against Russell while Kareem's competition was not as strong.

If we look at his ECF run, and consider that a bunch of his misses (because of the first two rounds being sweeps) were just him getting an offensive board (off his own shot) and doing that thing where u tap it up and keep tapping it up and it keeps missing and u eventually get the ball back and make it, his effeciency was pretty good, with I think his volume only being a problem if you think he should try to deviate from what’s working (since the offense was GOAT tier with him on the court from a results standpoint)

Obv his finals defense more than makes up for his poor offense, he had 4 ATG games in the finals given his absurd defense, games 5-7 and game 3 he was just offensively good too, haven’t looked at the other ones closely to see how his D was in them but they were more passive than horrendous anyways, and the Warriors have a history of clamping great wings up anyway. I mean, it’s seen as his greatest series ever so it’s hard to criticize him for it

Out of curiousity, why do you have his 2013 defense over 2016? I don’t think there’s any evidence that shows that, and eye test wise I feel like the thing is more so that lebrons good plays in 2016 are more Lowkey and the bad ones are super noticeable, but Esp in playoffs I don’t think 2013 bron was more impactful on that end.

[TheGOATRises007]

wheb voting ends i would love to know if lebron could have been first had all votes for him been to the same season

Probably not.

The tally is 13 to 7 at the moment for Jordan and that incudes all LeBron seasons.

There were a few that didn't include either of them or some had Jordan/LeBron 3rd, but I counted those as well.

[ardee]

1. Lebron James 2013 (b - 2012, c - 2016)
2. Michael Jordan 1991 (b - 1992, c - 1990)
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 1977 (b - 1974, c - 1972)

I view these as the three players who truly separated themselves from everyone else in their generation in shot clock era, all of which had great playoff runs. Since they played at different times, rather than pick between them I will rank them based on which era was the most recent.

2009 Lebron is the best regular season in NBA history however by Miami years his post game and shooting was better and he was more experienced. While in 2009 his stats weren't great, against 2010 Celtics defense we saw how first run Cavs Lebron could have used more skill polish. He is better on defense with the Heat than the Cavs although 16 finals is probably the best overall version of Lebron. He also had better spacing on the Cavs to help him on offense.

Couple things:

1. How do you reconcile choosing 2013 LeBron over other seasons given his relatively weaker Playoff performance?

2. Why Kareem over Shaq/Hakeem/Wilt?

I don't really have a problem with 2013 Lebron's playoff performance, actually his overall playoff numbers in 2016 aren't that much better despite elite level spacing the first three rounds. I guess I could be talked into 2012 over 2013 though.

Kareem dominates his era more than any of them and is the Jordan/Lebron of his time. He is also better on D than Shaq and better on offense than Hakeem. In Wilt's case it might not be his fault though as he had to play against Russell while Kareem's competition was not as strong.

1. What about 2017 or 2018 LeBron then? Those definitely separate themselves from 2013. The shooting, frankly the willingness to shoot and the confidence factor simply weren't there in Miami.

2. I agree in terms of overall career about Kareem, but did he really dominate 1977 more than Shaq did 2000? Shaq was first in points, second in rebounds, third in blocks, was almost unanimous MVP, and was +22.9 in the Playoffs en route to the title while averaging 31/15.