Lebron vs Jordan RAPM/Impact

[LukaTheGOAT]

This is a rather obvious observation to make. A huge part of RAPM is role and team context. After his first Cavs stint (and arguably even then) what I said was clearly true. Building around your best player is a disingenuous blanket statement for what we both know can be very different on a case by case basis.

It's weird how every LeBron supporter automatically assumes someone who doesn't think as highly of him as them has a desire to not "give LeBron credit." LeBron is one of the greatest players ever. Just because I do not think he is THE greatest ever should not be taken as a slight or indicative of bias. The fact you think it does means you are the one with a warped perception, not me.

I mean you're saying RAPM heavily favor's James because his team is built around him?? It doesn't sound like a well thought out post.

It's like you're taking the imagery of Lebron-Ball and pushing it as far as it can go.

You must realize that when any team especially the 90s Bulls are making their rosters they are thinking about how the players fit with Michael Jordan or their superstar and pretty much nothing else, right? If so, doesn't that heavily diminish your point?

Unless you just mean that the Bulls have a better bench than most of Lebron's teams, then I suppose so. Though I don't think that has much to do with player optimization.

Also, Lebron played with different rosters and in more variations - if things were optimized his teams would be clones of each other but they're very much not.

You're ignoring half of the reasoning. It's not just that James' teams were structured in a way to maximize his individual impact while he was out there they were also structured in such a way were it virtually guaranteed that they would be hapless without him. This is true both from a roster construction standpoint and a coaching standpoint.

Do you not think LeBron ball is a thing that exists. Maybe some fans have perverted the concept but it is absolutely a term when used properly that describes how his teams have played. Surely you agree with that.

Again there are degrees to this. If you can't see the nuance in that that's not my problem.

Well that is also mostly true but it was not my point.

'
I don't really get this because the belief behind why Lebron's full-season plus-minus metrics are believed to be muted later on in his career compared to first stint in Cleveland is because the team was less focused upon Lebron and less than an ideal fit for his talents in Miami with another ball-dominant star in Wade by his sid. Otherwise, 09 and 10 Lebron in particular would be considered almost unanimously better than his Miami days.

For example, we see a trend of Lebron's scoring dramatically shooting up without Wad consistently in his stint there:

LeBron with Wade off the floor in the 2013 Playoffs:

• 33.8 IA PTS/75 on +7.8 rTS%
• 8.6 AST
• 8.6 REB
• 1.8 STL
• 1.2 BLK (0.9 at rim)
• Led a +17.73 rOrtg (would be #best all-time)

Lebron w/o wade adjusted playoff scoring numbers in 2014:

37.8 IA PTS/75 on +11.3 rTS%

You are nowhere near true, without wade off the floor throughout 12-14 playoffs:

LeBron adjusted numbers w/o wade 12-14 playoffs:

•36.4 PTS
•8.5 TRB
•6.7 AST
•2.2 STL
•1 BLK

+7.6 rTS%
40% from 3
Led a +13.4 rORTG offense

And we can do w/o kyrie (16-17) and 18

•LeBron adjusted scoring w/o kyrie (16-18) playoffs:
LeBron James (16-18) adjusted playoff numbers w/o kyrie:

•33.9 PTS
•9.3 TRB
•8.4 AST (4 at rim)
•1.6 STL
•.9 BLK

•1.6 Bad pass TO
•62.28 Ts%
(+7.2 rTS)

If the teams were truly made to maximize Lebron's impact, then his numbers would be better than what they were, as he wouldn't be sharing the ball as much...furthermore his impact metrics would likely be closer to what they were in 09 and 10, instead of a step down.

[Lou Fan]

You really have zero idea how RAPM is calculated or what it measures if you believe the things you’re posting here.

Wow convincing argument thanks for the contribution. I do know what RAPM is and I do know what it's trying to estimate if you would like to explain why you think I have it wrong than you can (I know I don't) but it seems that isn't your goal you're just trying to put me down and make me seem like an idiot because I hold an opinion you don't like.

[Lou Fan]

I mean you're saying RAPM heavily favor's James because his team is built around him?? It doesn't sound like a well thought out post.

It's like you're taking the imagery of Lebron-Ball and pushing it as far as it can go.

You must realize that when any team especially the 90s Bulls are making their rosters they are thinking about how the players fit with Michael Jordan or their superstar and pretty much nothing else, right? If so, doesn't that heavily diminish your point?

Unless you just mean that the Bulls have a better bench than most of Lebron's teams, then I suppose so. Though I don't think that has much to do with player optimization.

Also, Lebron played with different rosters and in more variations - if things were optimized his teams would be clones of each other but they're very much not.

You're ignoring half of the reasoning. It's not just that James' teams were structured in a way to maximize his individual impact while he was out there they were also structured in such a way were it virtually guaranteed that they would be hapless without him. This is true both from a roster construction standpoint and a coaching standpoint.

Do you not think LeBron ball is a thing that exists. Maybe some fans have perverted the concept but it is absolutely a term when used properly that describes how his teams have played. Surely you agree with that.

Again there are degrees to this. If you can't see the nuance in that that's not my problem.

Well that is also mostly true but it was not my point.

'
I don't really get this because the belief behind why Lebron's full-season plus-minus metrics are believed to be muted later on in his career compared to first stint in Cleveland is because the team was less focused upon Lebron and less than an ideal fit for his talents in Miami with another ball-dominant star in Wade by his sid. Otherwise, 09 and 10 Lebron in particular would be considered almost unanimously better than his Miami days.

For example, we see a trend of Lebron's scoring dramatically shooting up without Wad consistently in his stint there:

LeBron with Wade off the floor in the 2013 Playoffs:

• 33.8 IA PTS/75 on +7.8 rTS%
• 8.6 AST
• 8.6 REB
• 1.8 STL
• 1.2 BLK (0.9 at rim)
• Led a +17.73 rOrtg (would be #best all-time)

Lebron w/o wade adjusted playoff scoring numbers in 2014:

37.8 IA PTS/75 on +11.3 rTS%

You are nowhere near true, without wade off the floor throughout 12-14 playoffs:

LeBron adjusted numbers w/o wade 12-14 playoffs:

•36.4 PTS
•8.5 TRB
•6.7 AST
•2.2 STL
•1 BLK

+7.6 rTS%
40% from 3
Led a +13.4 rORTG offense

And we can do w/o kyrie (16-17) and 18

•LeBron adjusted scoring w/o kyrie (16-18) playoffs:
LeBron James (16-18) adjusted playoff numbers w/o kyrie:

•33.9 PTS
•9.3 TRB
•8.4 AST (4 at rim)
•1.6 STL
•.9 BLK

•1.6 Bad pass TO
•62.28 Ts%
(+7.2 rTS)

If the teams were truly made to maximize Lebron's impact, then his numbers would be better than what they were, as he wouldn't be sharing the ball as much...furthermore his impact metrics would likely be closer to what they were in 09 and 10, instead of a step down.

And 1d for actually making a case for why my interpretation is incorrect and providing reasoning for why I am. Fwiw I do consider 09 LeBron to be his best season.

I think you have correctly pointed out the main exception to what I've said and that is Dwyane Wade. Obviously, Wade does not fill well with LeBron or rather, more accurately, LeBron does not fit well with Wade. I think we can both agree looking at the 13 playoffs isn't exactly a fair sample because that is literally Wade at his worst by far from 11-13 as he was good through 11-12 and 13 regular season and struggled playing hurt in those playoffs but because he is Dwyane Wade Spo trusted him to do more than he was capable of doing in his injured state and he ended up hurting the team at times. Wade was much better in the 14 playoffs but still not as good as the name Dwyane Wade suggests. If you want to make the case that sharing airspace with Wade hurt LeBron I can see a case for that though I think that also is partially do LeBron's own failings as a player (and Wade's too). I also think that the RAPM data available from the time where Wade was playing like Wade supports my argument.

[OhayoKD]

Considering LeBron teams are literally built to be optimized when he's out there and useless when he's not I think if anything this makes Jordan look good but as others have said comparing RAPM across eras/seasons is messy.

so were the 15 cavs withou tkyrie or kevin love an "optimal roster" because that team was aas goodor better than the 88-90 bulls jordan led.

Also was the 2011 heat without any spacing an optimal roster? Because that season lebron also scores a higher rapm.

[falcolombardi]

You're ignoring half of the reasoning. It's not just that James' teams were structured in a way to maximize his individual impact while he was out there they were also structured in such a way were it virtually guaranteed that they would be hapless without him. This is true both from a roster construction standpoint and a coaching standpoint.

Do you not think LeBron ball is a thing that exists. Maybe some fans have perverted the concept but it is absolutely a term when used properly that describes how his teams have played. Surely you agree with that.

Again there are degrees to this. If you can't see the nuance in that that's not my problem.

Well that is also mostly true but it was not my point.

'
I don't really get this because the belief behind why Lebron's full-season plus-minus metrics are believed to be muted later on in his career compared to first stint in Cleveland is because the team was less focused upon Lebron and less than an ideal fit for his talents in Miami with another ball-dominant star in Wade by his sid. Otherwise, 09 and 10 Lebron in particular would be considered almost unanimously better than his Miami days.

For example, we see a trend of Lebron's scoring dramatically shooting up without Wad consistently in his stint there:

LeBron with Wade off the floor in the 2013 Playoffs:

• 33.8 IA PTS/75 on +7.8 rTS%
• 8.6 AST
• 8.6 REB
• 1.8 STL
• 1.2 BLK (0.9 at rim)
• Led a +17.73 rOrtg (would be #best all-time)

Lebron w/o wade adjusted playoff scoring numbers in 2014:

37.8 IA PTS/75 on +11.3 rTS%

You are nowhere near true, without wade off the floor throughout 12-14 playoffs:

LeBron adjusted numbers w/o wade 12-14 playoffs:

•36.4 PTS
•8.5 TRB
•6.7 AST
•2.2 STL
•1 BLK

+7.6 rTS%
40% from 3
Led a +13.4 rORTG offense

And we can do w/o kyrie (16-17) and 18

•LeBron adjusted scoring w/o kyrie (16-18) playoffs:
LeBron James (16-18) adjusted playoff numbers w/o kyrie:

•33.9 PTS
•9.3 TRB
•8.4 AST (4 at rim)
•1.6 STL
•.9 BLK

•1.6 Bad pass TO
•62.28 Ts%
(+7.2 rTS)

If the teams were truly made to maximize Lebron's impact, then his numbers would be better than what they were, as he wouldn't be sharing the ball as much...furthermore his impact metrics would likely be closer to what they were in 09 and 10, instead of a step down.

And 1d for actually making a case for why my interpretation is incorrect and providing reasoning for why I am. Fwiw I do consider 09 LeBron to be his best season.

I think you have correctly pointed out the main exception to what I've said and that is Dwyane Wade. Obviously, Wade does not fill well with LeBron or rather, more accurately, LeBron does not fit well with Wade. I think we can both agree looking at the 13 playoffs isn't exactly a fair sample because that is literally Wade at his worst by far from 11-13 as he was good through 11-12 and 13 regular season and struggled playing hurt in those playoffs but because he is Dwyane Wade Spo trusted him to do more than he was capable of doing in his injured state and he ended up hurting the team at times. Wade was much better in the 14 playoffs but still not as good as the name Dwyane Wade suggests. If you want to make the case that sharing airspace with Wade hurt LeBron I can see a case for that though I think that also is partially do LeBron's own failings as a player (and Wade's too). I also think that the RAPM data available from the time where Wade was playing like Wade supports my argument.

I still dont get how bulls building the best possible teams around jordan ks any different than cavs or heat building the best possible teams around lebron

Is not that the whole point?

[OhayoKD]

Can't compare RAPM numbers that way, different distributions each year.

LeBron looks a little bit better but it's marginal, Jordan absolutely does as well as expected.

different distributions? what does that mean?

also, is it marginal? Lebron has like 4 +8's and 3 +9's while jordan only has 1 +7 and two +6's. Ben taylor had players like nash at +6 and players like lebron/shaq/and jordan at +7. Is the scale here different?

In layman terms, the process of calculating RAPM involves some math that distorts the "real scale" of the numbers in favor of accuracy. The scale is just different for each season. I prefer to use rank, and use the number itself as a rough ballpark.

ElGee's ratings are subjective, they are not subject to a formula, although the scale he uses (average player is +0, max value peaks around +7-something) leans on findings supported by +/- data.

oh. do we know how the scale is distorted(bigger or smaller)?

Also ok about elgee. But if +9 vs +7 is "marginal" then what kind of gap would be "non-marginal" +10-+7?, +11, +7? How big of a gap is signifcant?

[OhayoKD]

Would any fathom taking him over prime MJ? No, not in a million years.

I mean...yeah

that's just circular reasoning tho...

[capfan33]

Just a general note and Luka made a great post in this regard, Lebron's teams haven't really been "built" around him for a good portion of his career. Honestly, for all the maligning of his teams in Cleveland, the last 2 years he was there, that team was built well around him. Shooting and (some) defense (except for Shaq lol), it was an ideal floor raising situation that not surprisingly fell apart after he left. And of course, he put up the best impact numbers of his career their.

But in Miami and even the 2nd Cleveland stint I would hardly call those rosters ideally built around Lebron. And of course his impact numbers in Miami reflect this even if he was a better player in Miami. Like Kevin Love and D-wade, even Kyrie are hardly "ideal" pieces around Lebron.

You want to see Lebron's impact maximized in a realistic way; Klay Thompson, Paul George, Brook Lopez, Serge Ibaka. These are the types of pieces that would cause Lebron's impact numbers to artifically explode, not **** Kevin Love lol. So yea, I have to push back against this idea that Lebron's more impressive impact numbers are due to team building, at least outside Cleveland which as I said was close to an ideal floor-raising scenerio where Lebron's numbers went through the roof.

Also to the thread, I don't care unless we get at least 2 seasons worth of data for MJ and even then, impact isn't really what I'm most concerned about even though it is a factor.

[OhayoKD]

I think LeBron at his peak was the slightly better rs player or at the very least has a strong argument. The playoffs is mainly where MJ was more consistently great(at least from 88-93). Then obviously LeBron also has something of a prime/longevity argument over him as well. They're a similar tier of player. Which guy you have above the other is a matter of criteria/taste.

maybe. though if you just take and average their best playoffs(probably 09, 12, 15-17) for lebron i think lebron would probably score higher since 2009 was record breaking and in 15-17 he got even better from his +9 rapm whatever

[OhayoKD]

lso to the thread, I don't care unless we get at least 2 seasons worth of data for MJ and even then

Also to the thread, I don't care unless we get at least 2 seasons worth of data for MJ and even then, impact isn't really what I'm most concerned about even though it is a factor.

What are you really concerned with then?

And are we going to get more mj rapm data?

[Cavsfansince84]

maybe. though if you just take and average their best playoffs(probably 09, 12, 15-17) for lebron i think lebron would probably score higher since 2009 was record breaking and in 15-17 he got even better from his +9 rapm whatever

Again, this depends on what metric you use as a score. I think it comes out close. With MJ you get more points while with LeBron you get more other stuff. LeBron's defense is probably also more up and down once you get beyond 2014 though I think in 2012 and 2013 he reached a level defensively that MJ never did.

[Lou Fan]

'
I don't really get this because the belief behind why Lebron's full-season plus-minus metrics are believed to be muted later on in his career compared to first stint in Cleveland is because the team was less focused upon Lebron and less than an ideal fit for his talents in Miami with another ball-dominant star in Wade by his sid. Otherwise, 09 and 10 Lebron in particular would be considered almost unanimously better than his Miami days.

For example, we see a trend of Lebron's scoring dramatically shooting up without Wad consistently in his stint there:

LeBron with Wade off the floor in the 2013 Playoffs:

• 33.8 IA PTS/75 on +7.8 rTS%
• 8.6 AST
• 8.6 REB
• 1.8 STL
• 1.2 BLK (0.9 at rim)
• Led a +17.73 rOrtg (would be #best all-time)

Lebron w/o wade adjusted playoff scoring numbers in 2014:

37.8 IA PTS/75 on +11.3 rTS%

You are nowhere near true, without wade off the floor throughout 12-14 playoffs:

LeBron adjusted numbers w/o wade 12-14 playoffs:

•36.4 PTS
•8.5 TRB
•6.7 AST
•2.2 STL
•1 BLK

+7.6 rTS%
40% from 3
Led a +13.4 rORTG offense

And we can do w/o kyrie (16-17) and 18

•LeBron adjusted scoring w/o kyrie (16-18) playoffs:
LeBron James (16-18) adjusted playoff numbers w/o kyrie:

•33.9 PTS
•9.3 TRB
•8.4 AST (4 at rim)
•1.6 STL
•.9 BLK

•1.6 Bad pass TO
•62.28 Ts%
(+7.2 rTS)

If the teams were truly made to maximize Lebron's impact, then his numbers would be better than what they were, as he wouldn't be sharing the ball as much...furthermore his impact metrics would likely be closer to what they were in 09 and 10, instead of a step down.

And 1d for actually making a case for why my interpretation is incorrect and providing reasoning for why I am. Fwiw I do consider 09 LeBron to be his best season.

I think you have correctly pointed out the main exception to what I've said and that is Dwyane Wade. Obviously, Wade does not fill well with LeBron or rather, more accurately, LeBron does not fit well with Wade. I think we can both agree looking at the 13 playoffs isn't exactly a fair sample because that is literally Wade at his worst by far from 11-13 as he was good through 11-12 and 13 regular season and struggled playing hurt in those playoffs but because he is Dwyane Wade Spo trusted him to do more than he was capable of doing in his injured state and he ended up hurting the team at times. Wade was much better in the 14 playoffs but still not as good as the name Dwyane Wade suggests. If you want to make the case that sharing airspace with Wade hurt LeBron I can see a case for that though I think that also is partially do LeBron's own failings as a player (and Wade's too). I also think that the RAPM data available from the time where Wade was playing like Wade supports my argument.

I still dont get how bulls building the best possible teams around jordan ks any different than cavs or heat building the best possible teams around lebron

Is not that the whole point?

Again there's a difference between maximizing how good your team is and maximizing the impact of your star. No one could plausibly claim the current Warriors are built maximize Curry's ability to impact the game but they are built to make the team as good as possible. As Stalwart said in the first post "Jordan understands how to be apart of a team rather than be the team itself." LeBron never has even though Spo did try at times. And again there are degrees to which this can and does happen and LeBron's case is an all time extreme. Never has a player been so catered to except possibly Harden.

[falcolombardi]

maybe. though if you just take and average their best playoffs(probably 09, 12, 15-17) for lebron i think lebron would probably score higher since 2009 was record breaking and in 15-17 he got even better from his +9 rapm whatever

Again, this depends on what metric you use as a score. I think it comes out close. With MJ you get more points while with LeBron you get more other stuff. LeBron's defense is probably also more up and down once you get beyond 2014 though I think in 2012 and 2013 he reached a level defensively that MJ never did.

I would argue 2009-2010 too, and 2016 tbh

[Lou Fan]

Just a general note and Luka made a great post in this regard, Lebron's teams haven't really been "built" around him for a good portion of his career. Honestly, for all the maligning of his teams in Cleveland, the last 2 years he was there, that team was built well around him. Shooting and (some) defense (except for Shaq lol), it was an ideal floor raising situation that not surprisingly fell apart after he left. And of course, he put up the best impact numbers of his career their.

But in Miami and even the 2nd Cleveland stint I would hardly call those rosters ideally built around Lebron. And of course his impact numbers in Miami reflect this even if he was a better player in Miami. Like Kevin Love and D-wade, even Kyrie are hardly "ideal" pieces around Lebron.

You want to see Lebron's impact maximized in a realistic way; Klay Thompson, Paul George, Brook Lopez, Serge Ibaka. These are the types of pieces that would cause Lebron's impact numbers to artifically explode, not **** Kevin Love lol. So yea, I have to push back against this idea that Lebron's more impressive impact numbers are due to team building, at least outside Cleveland which as I said was close to an ideal floor-raising scenerio where Lebron's numbers went through the roof.

Also to the thread, I don't care unless we get at least 2 seasons worth of data for MJ and even then, impact isn't really what I'm most concerned about even though it is a factor.

Why not just say Steph Curry, Dirk and Kevin Garnett. Obviously I'm not saying they were optimal I'm saying they were optimized. Kevin Love is actually the perfect example of a player who was acquired and coached as a way of making LeBron's numbers as an individual look better. He became a floor spacing Center who can't protect the rim. So with LeBron on the court he provides huge value sucking out big man from the paint hitting open shots LeBron creates and rebounding and throwing outlet passes to get one of the greatest transition players ever going down hill. Also on the other end LeBron can be the rim protector and cover for Kevin's weakness. Now LeBron's out of the game and all those skills become far less useful and the defense will crater with him playing the 5. And because he's been slimmed down and asked to play a wildly different role he is no longer a good creator of efficient offense while out there by himself. The Cavs were built in a way where Love could have a lot of impact while LeBron was out there but he would struggle massively without him. Then RAPM ends up crediting a lot of Loves impact to LeBron as a result.

Also basically every star ever except the most portable ever are gonna have things that don't fit great with LeBron. Limiting this discussion to the stars misses the forest for the trees as the role players are a huge thing here. It's exactly what you are acknowledging with the 09-10 Cavs.

[falcolombardi]

And 1d for actually making a case for why my interpretation is incorrect and providing reasoning for why I am. Fwiw I do consider 09 LeBron to be his best season.

I think you have correctly pointed out the main exception to what I've said and that is Dwyane Wade. Obviously, Wade does not fill well with LeBron or rather, more accurately, LeBron does not fit well with Wade. I think we can both agree looking at the 13 playoffs isn't exactly a fair sample because that is literally Wade at his worst by far from 11-13 as he was good through 11-12 and 13 regular season and struggled playing hurt in those playoffs but because he is Dwyane Wade Spo trusted him to do more than he was capable of doing in his injured state and he ended up hurting the team at times. Wade was much better in the 14 playoffs but still not as good as the name Dwyane Wade suggests. If you want to make the case that sharing airspace with Wade hurt LeBron I can see a case for that though I think that also is partially do LeBron's own failings as a player (and Wade's too). I also think that the RAPM data available from the time where Wade was playing like Wade supports my argument.

I still dont get how bulls building the best possible teams around jordan ks any different than cavs or heat building the best possible teams around lebron

Is not that the whole point?

Again there's a difference between maximizing how good your team is and maximizing the impact of your star. No one could plausibly claim the current Warriors are built maximize Curry's ability to impact the game but they are built to make the team as good as possible. As Stalwart said in the first post "Jordan understands how to be apart of a team rather than be the team itself." LeBron never has even though Spo did try at times. And again there are degrees to which this can and does happen and LeBron's case is an all time extreme. Never has a player been so catered to except possibly Harden.

By definition maximizing your player impact = maximizing your team

You keep mentioning curry when he is another pmayer where the effect you mention "team great with him, ass without him" also happens

You could argue warriors dont play in a way that maximizes curry boxscore stats, but by using him in a way that maxinizes the warriors effectiveness they are also maximizing curry plus-minus,aka the thingh rapm uses

A team by definition wants to use their star player in a way that the team is as good as possible when the player is on court, maxinizing a team = maxinizing a player rapm

The only exception would ve a team that uses its dtar with bench players a ton to keep the bench lineups afloat and

A) i have not seen any evidence bulls did this more with jordan than lebron teams did with lebron

B) if there is sonethingh peak lebron does better than prolly anyone is floor raise weaker lineups to really high heights, so his plus-minus metrics wouldbt be so affected by how he is used

[capfan33]

lso to the thread, I don't care unless we get at least 2 seasons worth of data for MJ and even then

Also to the thread, I don't care unless we get at least 2 seasons worth of data for MJ and even then, impact isn't really what I'm most concerned about even though it is a factor.

What are you really concerned with then?

And are we going to get more mj rapm data?

Something along the lines of CORP with more era adjustment. I know trying to guage era's impact is subjective but so is virtually everything to an extent, I still think it's a useful exercise.

[OhayoKD]

lso to the thread, I don't care unless we get at least 2 seasons worth of data for MJ and even then

Also to the thread, I don't care unless we get at least 2 seasons worth of data for MJ and even then, impact isn't really what I'm most concerned about even though it is a factor.

What are you really concerned with then?

And are we going to get more mj rapm data?

Something along the lines of CORP with more era adjustment. I know trying to guage era's impact is subjective but so is virtually everything to an extent, I still think it's a useful exercise.

i thought corp was just ben's subjective evaluations put in the same format of rapm or whatever

[OhayoKD]

maybe. though if you just take and average their best playoffs(probably 09, 12, 15-17) for lebron i think lebron would probably score higher since 2009 was record breaking and in 15-17 he got even better from his +9 rapm whatever

Again, this depends on what metric you use as a score. I think it comes out close. With MJ you get more points while with LeBron you get more other stuff. LeBron's defense is probably also more up and down once you get beyond 2014 though I think in 2012 and 2013 he reached a level defensively that MJ never did.

I would argue 2009-2010 too, and 2016 tbh

if you're including 2016 then you have to include 2015 since 2015 was easily the most impressive defensive result lebron's ever gotten in the postseason.

[OhayoKD]

maybe. though if you just take and average their best playoffs(probably 09, 12, 15-17) for lebron i think lebron would probably score higher since 2009 was record breaking and in 15-17 he got even better from his +9 rapm whatever

Again, this depends on what metric you use as a score. I think it comes out close. With MJ you get more points while with LeBron you get more other stuff. LeBron's defense is probably also more up and down once you get beyond 2014 though I think in 2012 and 2013 he reached a level defensively that MJ never did.

maybe. though if you just take and average their best playoffs(probably 09, 12, 15-17) for lebron i think lebron would probably score higher since 2009 was record breaking and in 15-17 he got even better from his +9 rapm whatever

Again, this depends on what metric you use as a score. I think it comes out close. With MJ you get more points while with LeBron you get more other stuff. LeBron's defense is probably also more up and down once you get beyond 2014 though I think in 2012 and 2013 he reached a level defensively that MJ never did.

I'm not sure. Lebron's 2009 is insane statsitcally. Like in one of ben's video it came out at like +16 in his aupm/pipm whatever. If you use something like per or ws/48 which arguably favors mj because it grades defense with steals and blocks, you could take out 09, which literally destroys every playoff ever(besides hakeem 88), and lebron would still average higher in his best statistical years. I think you have to take out 09 for it to be close statistically.

i also think 2015 and 2016 lebron's defense was comfortbly better than mj's in the playoffs if for nothing else because it's crazy to me their playoff defense was jordan-bulls level next to tristan thompson and matthew delliadova. (tho timo also made a lot of great arguments in the peaks thread) But the heat were also awful in 2014 defensively. But they were good to great between 11-13.

I think lebron might just take a playoff off defensively every now and then I guess it makes sense a player who plays longer has more downs than a player who played shorter.

[Cavsfansince84]

I'm not sure. Lebron's 2009 is insane statsitcally. Like in one of ben's video it came out at like +16 in his aupm/pipm whatever. If you use something like per or ws/48 which arguably favors mj because it grades defense with steals and blocks, you could take out 09, which literally destroys every playoff ever(besides hakeem 88), and lebron would still average higher in his best statistical years. I think you have to take out 09 for it to be close statistically.

i also think 2015 and 2016 lebron's defense was comfortbly better than mj's in the playoffs if for nothing else because it's crazy to me their playoff defense was jordan-bulls level next to tristan thompson and matthew delliadova. (tho timo also made a lot of great arguments in the peaks thread) But the heat were also awful in 2014 defensively. But they were good to great between 11-13.

I think lebron might just take a playoff off defensively every now and then I guess it makes sense a player who plays longer has more downs than a player who played shorter.

Again, statistics tend to get boiled down to metrics which then you have to take in a sort of basket approach imo. I don't know that those favor LeBron if you compare 09-18 and 20 to say 86-93, 96-98 MJ but more so the playoffs I referenced for him are more 86-93. Having said that, I've already said before on many occasions that 09 LeBron may have been the peak for all perimeter players we've ever seen.