Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #18 - 2005-06 Dwyane Wade

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Re: Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #18 

Post#41 » by AEnigma » Mon Aug 15, 2022 9:56 pm

No-more-rings wrote:So it appears that the heavy favorites for the next several spots are Wade, Kobe, Dr J, Drob, Moses and Kawhi in some order.

Forecasting some names that have either not been talked about, or haven't picked up major steam yet.

Durant, Cp3, Nash, Patrick Ewing, Dirk, Harden, Barkley, Tracy McGrady, Westbrook(?)

Would anyone mind listing how they'd rank those above players? Not expecting anything real long or in depth, just trying to get an idea of how the panel may lean on some players.

Dirk and Durant are in consideration for me after Davis and Kawhi, then Nash, then McGrady/Harden/Paul/Ewing (among others). I am not sure I will be voting for Westbrook in this project with the number of centres I intend to back (as in, he should make it before I would have a spot for him), and I doubt I will vote for Barkley. In Barkley’s case, I am really not a fan of his defence, and if I am voting for a weak defender who gets most of their value from offence, I would rather vote for Penny (who has struggled to gain traction in the two prior projects).

Those will likely be uncommon sentiments lol.
MyUniBroDavis wrote:Some people are clearly far too overreliant on data without context and look at good all in one or impact numbers and get wowed by that rather than looking at how a roster is actually built around a player
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Re: Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #18 

Post#42 » by DraymondGold » Mon Aug 15, 2022 10:15 pm

No-more-rings wrote:So it appears that the heavy favorites for the next several spots are Wade, Kobe, Dr J, Drob, Moses and Kawhi in some order.

Forecasting some names that have either not been talked about, or haven't picked up major steam yet.

Durant, Cp3, Nash, Patrick Ewing, Dirk, Harden, Barkley, Tracy McGrady, Westbrook(?)

Would anyone mind listing how they'd rank those above players? Not expecting anything real long or in depth, just trying to get an idea of how the panel may lean on some players.
I'd definitely take Durant / Dirk near the top of that group (and would also consider them over some of Moses/Wade/Doctor J / Kawhi who you listed as favorites).

CP3 would also be high, possibly next out of the 2nd group you mentioned.

I'd probably take Barkley over Ewing. I'm still sorting out where to put Nash and McGrady, although neither will be last.

I may be lower on Harden relative to the average person, and I'm definitely lower on Westbrook. They'd be towards the bottom.

I'd also consider AD, Mikan, Karl Malone in this group, who you didn't mention.
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Re: Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #18 

Post#43 » by DraymondGold » Tue Aug 16, 2022 12:21 am

1994 Robinson Playoff Film Analysis



Goals/Expectations going in:
-Offense: the biggest counter people cite against Robinson an offensive decline. I'm hoping to identify causes / trends
-Defense: Robinson's clearly the best remaining defender in this tier, by a wide margin.

[Qualifier: I haven't gotten the chance to do the 4th Quarter yet, but here's initial film analysis for 1994 David Robinson, Game 4 vs Utah Jazz. I'll be editing in clearer notes, a more comprehensive summary, and 4th quarter observations when I get the chance. ]

____________________
0:20 Offense
good quick pass off the double, gets teammate open shot, but miss.

0:35 defense
Good double to prevent middle penetration, recovers quickly, strips opponents but fouls. Couldn’t see hands well enough to tell where his hands were on the foul

1:33 O
They double without the ball, good off-ball effort. Pass to Robinson, double him again, and he hits open man quickly. Open man passes back to Robinson, who hits a different open man, who hits the 3.
Notice how many doubles they send (multiple in one possession), and how terrible the spacing is for Robinson (2 extra defenders sagging into lane). You could argue the pass at 1:47 could come a split second earlier, but Robinson has shown 3 times over the past 2 possessions to be a quick and willing passer.

2:05 D
Helps on a drive and deters a shot. Then gets rebound.
-Compared to Giannis’ film analysis in the Greatest Peaks thread, notice how when Robinson is resting off-ball, he’s a rim deterrent. While when Giannis is resting off ball, he’s far from the rim. You could argue this is era-dependent, but regardless, Robinson’s passive off-ball presence seems to be a greater deterrent than Giannis’.

3:35 D
Loses his man off-ball but recovers, fouls on the layup. If you watch the replay, Robinson’s hands are clearly in good position when the actual shot releases, but maybe they’re calling the left hand at the very start of the shot motion. Maybe

4:18 O
Off ball screen, it isn’t the best screen but the Spurs player still gets open. Robinson then gets called rebounding foul.

5:33 O
Pick and roll, Robinson sets a good screen that gets his man inner position on the drive. Teammate misses rim attempt

5:48 D
Good defense, forces the opponent to reset the shot midair, but the opponent makes it anyway.

5:59 O
Once again they double robinson, once again he hits open man, and for the third time rather than taking the open 3 (or missing the open shot) the once-open perimeter player passes back to Robinson. Robinson drives, you could argue he should hit #24 with the pass if 24 were a good shooter, but instead it’s a rim attempt that gets blocked

6:15 D
Smaller defender has a mismatch so Robinson gets position to prevent the inside pass. Malone is open and could drive to the rim, but Robinson’s presence deters him into a midrange jumper that misses. Even when Robinson’s slower than you might want to rotate back to the open man after help defense, his presence alone still makes the shot harder

6:30 O
Robinson again sets a great pick and roll screen, gets his teammate in great position on the drive, which ends up with an open 3 shot, that misses.

7:15 D
Good rebound, quick pass to start transition



13:40 O
Robinson spins baseline and hits fadeaway. Similar play to Giannis’ film analysis, except Robinson makes the shot.

14:00 D
Active off-ball defense to prevent entry pass multiple times



18:15 O
Robinson again doubled on entry pass (4th or 5th time?), drives and hits shot.

19:20 D
Karl Malone’s defender just falls over, Robinson rotates, great rim protection forces Malone to miss

19:55 O
Robinson makes entry pass, active off ball to get rebounding position

20:10 D
Good off ball rim deterrence to force the pass, gets the rotation and great rim protection to force the miss… but teammate fouls.

21:09 O
Doubled yet again off entry pass. Close but misses. I’d definitely rather the kickouot pass, though we’ve seen Robinson’s teammates not take the available open 3 multiple times.

22:41 O
Doubled on entry pass, immediate tap pass out, leads to an open 3 opportunity then a made midrange off drive.

23:10 D
Gets rebound, but not contested


26:16 O
Bad off ball screen, okay pick and roll acreen. Entry pass, doubled, tries to score thrnover

30:45 O
Lucky/good position to get the turnover. Then good off ball movement to get a foul.

31:50 d
What is this camera movement lol. Can’t really see, but it looks like Robinson contestests a made Malone shot

32:15 O
great off ball movement, gets entry pass, passes out of triple which leads to a made spurs shot.

32:42 d
Good double to protect the rim, but made shot

33:10 o
Active off ball, good iso, close but misses. However, 4 defenders have collapsed into lane, which helps opens up the rebound. Robinson pick n roll, screen is rejected but it breaks down the defense (credit guard), leads to made spurs 3

32:57 O
Quick shot at free throw like shows Robinson’s midrange. (Not sure what the commentators are talking about, this was neither Dale Ellis shooting or a 3)

34:10 D
Good help on Stockton after Stockton loses his defender prevents the open shot. Stockton passes, Rodman helps, and gets a clean block but called for the foul and a flagrant for the shove after

36:45 D
Helps Rodman on guarding Malone but Malone makes

38:10 O
Triple teamed off entry pass, they foul him.

39:38 o
Good off ball movement, entry pass to iso, they double him, Robinson makes it

40:11 d
Robinson help defense at the rim leads to miss

40:40 O
Good offensive rebound tip almost gets team another possession

40:45 D
Good defense on first attempt, leads to miss. But Malone makes second shot

41:55 O
Doubled on entry pass. Leads to open 3, then drive, then miss.

42:10 d
rebound

42:40 D
Good pressure to prevent pick and roll drive. Could have been in better rebounding position

43:10 O
Wiling passer to off-ball movers, but the off-ball movement doesn’t really lead to anything

43:25 D
Intimidation, steps up to prevent the drive. But because his teammate lost track of his defensive assignment,, Jazz get a good shot

44:55 O
Active off ball. triple teamed off ball but misses

47:05 O
Perhaps the first possession they don’t immediately double Robinson on the entry pass. The double comes late, but Robinson with a good spin move into a made shot.

48:12 O
The first entry pass post-up where Robinson isn’t doubled comes with ~2 minutes left in the 3rd quarter. Robinson posts up Malone and makes it off another spin move

48:30 D
offensive foul

49:35 O
Pick and roll, Robinson’s great screen and great guard speed creates a ton of space. Defense breaks down, Spurs make the tip in. This kind of play as a screener and roll-man is why I think Robinson would play so much better with a better guard who could shoot off Robinson’s doubles / PnR drive / pass to Robinson as a roll man

50:00 D
Contests the layup pass, pass gets in the right area but it’s a

50:10 O
Pick and roll, Robinson gets pass, Robinson stripped to Rodman but rodman falls out of bounds



4th quarter [to be added later]

____________________

Offensive Summary (to be expanded later):

Robinson faced immediate double teams on about 85% of all tracked entry passes, and faced eventual double teams on 92% of all possessions with entry passes.

Robinson passed on half these entry-pass doubles, and attempted to score on the other half. In these possessions, Robinson shot 43% eFG% against doubles while his teammates shot 50% on wide open shots. In one case his teammate actually rejected the open look and immediately passed back to Robinson while he was still doubled.

Additional context: Now you might critique Robinson for not passing more (I do). But he increased his scoring frequency on doubles later in the game after his teammates had missed a number of open looks and even rejected taking open shots. This is sort of like a micro-version of the 06 Kobe approach, increasing iso scoring attempts when teammates miss or reject open shots. It's not the kind of play you'd want with good teammates, but if a player shows a clear willingness to be a passer / facilitator / off-ball player with better teammates (which Robinson clearly has), their slightly selfish shooting alongside poor non-championship-quality teammates isn't too much of a concern, at least to me.

Pick and rolls: The Spurs went to the entry pass (which the Jazz doubled) for 54% of the offensive plays where Robinson was active. Another 21% was on the pick and roll, where the Spurs had 1.0 Points per possession on these plays (50% eFG%). The majority of the misses were either wide open or rejected open shots in favor of contested shots that missed.

Other offensive plays: The remaining 25% of offensive plays where Robinson was active involved Robinson as a passer at the top, successful Robinson isos, offensive rebounding, and good off-ball play (either setting screens or fighting for inner position).

In sum: The biggest critique against Robinson is declining playoff offense, specifically scoring. I think it’s reasonable for any big man to have worse scoring numbers if they’re doubled on 92% of possessions they get an empty pass. I often cite his poor teammates as the cause of Robinson’s poor play: the film study supports this. Shooting 50% eFG% on wide open shots created by Robinson double-teams or Robinson pick and rolls is simply not acceptable in playoff-quality teammates.

As discussed in a previous thread (link to be added later), Robinson already has Top 15 Regular Season peak numbers. When Robinson was given better teammates and a better fit, he has Top 15/20 Playoff-only numbers (in admittedly a smaller role/sample). He’s clearly the best defensive player of the remaining peaks [in this tier], by some margin. The biggest concern is declining playoff numbers, specifically scoring, but to me the film analysis paints a pretty clear picture that Robinson’s teammates are the primary culprits of the Spurs’ decline.


[I hope to update this for the 4th quarter and add defensive comments later. feel free to add your own film analysis to this too! :D ]
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Re: Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #18 

Post#44 » by SickMother » Tue Aug 16, 2022 12:53 am

01 Erving 75-76: 28.7 PER | .569 TS% | 110 TS+ | 17.7 WS | .262 WS/48
01 Erving 75-76 Playoffs?!?: 32.0 PER | .610 TS% | 3.7 WS | .321 WS/48
[a peak so high the NBA absorbed a whole other league to get this guy under their banner. Doctor turned in a top tier do it all regular season, then followed it up with one of thee largest postseason efficiency increases of all time.]

02 Hawkins 67-68: 28.8 PER | .597 TS% | 124 TS+ | 17.5 WS | .273 WS/48
02 Hawkins 67-68 Playoffs?!?: 30.0 PER | .651 TS% | 4.0 WS | .310 WS/48
[for what amounts to spot #13 on my ballot I'll go with maybe thee unluckiest player in basketball history, robbed of his collegiate & early NBA career by completely spurious gambling allegations, then derailed by a knee injury which occurred amidst the ABA Championship in this very season.

but there was never any doubt Connie could ball from the outset as one of the original NYC greats at Rucker Park & being named the best high school player in the country in 1960. As for his 67-68 peak, the Hawk simply did everything. Topped the brand new ABA in PPG on monster efficiency, 2nd in the league in RPG, 3rd in the league in APG. Then took his game to a whole other level in the playoffs, hurting his knee during the Championship series & returning to lead his team to the top in heroic fashion even before Willis Reed (or Giannis) did it.

I get it, the 67-68 ABA is probably the 2nd weakest competition level to receive a vote so far besides 49-50 Mikan, but Hawkins had no alternative, it was the best league available to him due to his illegal blacklisting from the NBA & he thoroughly dominated it across the board. Also think that Connie's peak game works in any era with his mix of size, athleticism and all around skillset.]

***I have a tier break here which goes from #14 to #25 with the following seasons under consideration (in chrono order) 63-64 Oscar, 65-66 West, 82-83 Moses, 94-95 Admiral, 03-04 Garnett, 05-06 Wade, 05-06 Nowitzki, 08-09 Kobe, 16-17 Kawhi, 16-17 Durant, 20-21 Giannis and 21-22 Jokic.***

03 Kawhi 16-17: 27.6 PER | .610 TS% | 111 TS+ | 13.6 WS | .264 WS/48
03 Kawhi 16-17 Playoffs?!?: 31.5 PER | .672 TS% | 2.8 WS | .314 WS/48
[ultimately going with Kawhi for two main reasons, his elite defense as a wing defender is unique among the remaining contenders, and his postseason was shaping up as a best ever candidate with Leonard posting absolutely insane efficiency before Zaza stepped in.]
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Re: Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #18 

Post#45 » by SickMother » Tue Aug 16, 2022 1:58 am

No-more-rings wrote:Forecasting some names that have either not been talked about, or haven't picked up major steam yet.

Durant, Cp3, Nash, Patrick Ewing, Dirk, Harden, Barkley, Tracy McGrady, Westbrook(?)

Would anyone mind listing how they'd rank those above players? Not expecting anything real long or in depth, just trying to get an idea of how the panel may lean on some players.


Out of those guys I've got Dirk & KD next up...

Nowitzki 05-06: 28.1 PER | .589 TS% | 110 TS+ | 17.7 WS | .275 WS/48 | 123 ORtg | 103 DRtg
Nowitzki 05-06 Playoffs?!?: 26.8 PER | .596 TS% | 5.4 WS | .263 WS/48 | 124 ORtg | 103 DRtg

Durant 16-17: 27.6 PER | .651 TS% | 118 TS+ | 12.0 WS | .278 WS/48 | 125 ORtg | 101 DRtg
Durant 16-17 Playoffs?!?: 27.5 PER | .683 TS% | 3.1 WS | .280 WS/48 | 129 ORtg | 105 DRtg

After them, I'll be voting for CP3 & Chuck at some point for sure...

C Paul 07-08: 28.3 PER | .576 TS% | 107 TS+ | 17.8 WS | .284 WS/48 | 125 ORtg | 103 DRtg
C Paul 07-08 Playoffs?!?: 30.7 PER | .565 TS% | 2.9 WS | .289 WS/48 | 126 ORtg | 107 DRtg

Barkley 92-93: 25.9 PER | .596 TS% | 111 TS+ | 14.4 WS | .242 WS/48 | 120 ORtg | 103 DRtg
Barkley 92-93 Playoffs?!?: 24.9 PER | .552 TS% | 4.6 WS | .215 WS/48 | 119 ORtg | 106 DRtg

Other five are among a couple dozen candidates I currently have for the last ten or so spots. Pref order something like this at the moment...

Harden 14-15: 26.7 PER | .605 TS% | 113 TS+ | 16.4 WS | .265 WS/48 | 118 ORtg | 103 DRtg
Harden 14-15 Playoffs?!?: 24.8 PER | .620 TS% | 2.7 WS | .202 WS/48 | 117 ORtg | 109 DRtg

Nash 05-06: 23.3 PER | .632 TS% | 118 TS+ | 12.4 WS | .212 WS/48 | 121 ORtg | 109 DRtg
Nash 05-06 Playoffs?!?: 21.3 PER | .615 TS% | 2.6 WS | .153 WS/48 | 120 ORtg | 116 DRtg

McGrady 02-03: 30.3 PER | .564 TS% | 109 TS+ | 16.1 WS | .262 WS/48 | 116 ORtg | 104 DRtg
McGrady 02-03 Playoffs?!?: 27.0 PER | .561 TS% | 1.2 WS | .181 WS/48 | 110 ORtg | 105 DRtg

Westbrook 15-16: 27.6 PER | .554 TS% | 102 TS+ | 14.0 WS | .245 WS/48 | 115 ORtg | 103 DRtg
Westbrook 15-16 Playoffs?!?: 26.9 PER | .515 TS% | 2.9 WS | .208 WS/48 | 112 ORtg | 104 DRtg

Ewing 93-94: 22.9 PER | .551 TS% | 104 TS+ | 13.1 WS | .211 WS/48 | 108 ORtg | 93 DRtg
Ewing 93-94 Playoffs?!?: 20.6 PER | .495 TS% | 3.2 WS | .150 WS/48 | 101 ORtg | 94 DRtg
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Re: Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #18 

Post#46 » by falcolombardi » Tue Aug 16, 2022 3:07 am

1- 1950 george mikan (alternate 1951)

I feel weird ranking mikan but i feel like he is the last "best player in the world for a period of time" player left

While he may not be a mvp of time machine'd forward and that is a valid concern more than witg anyone else.

I also dont feel comfortable ranking him below players who didnt come even close to dominating their nba eras as much as mikan

If i am gonna arbitraly decide where to rank mikan i prefer to put his peak in a spot that more accurately reflects how dominant he was when he played. Otherwise i would prefer to leave pre-shotclock players out of the project and as honorablw mentions

2- 2006 wade (2009,2010)

Played some absurd series against powerful teams like detroit and dallas. Underated regular season.

I like his defense a fair bit more than kobe and his creation/playmaking a fair bit more than kawhi. While i consider the gaps the other way around (kobe creation and post 2016 kawhi defense) very small or none at all

Incredible floor raising for a team that needed every point, rebound, block (as a guard!) He could give

Many have valid concerns about his scalability but i think at his peak playing with better spacing you could build a great offense around his creation while still getting surprising help defense/rebounding value out of a ball handler guard.

3- 2007 nash (2006)

This may be a controversial pick but after watching footage of playoffs kobe (2008,2009), kawhi (17,19) paul (15), dirk (11) and nash i surprised myself (even as someone high on nash) with beimg more impressed with him out of all of them

His offense eye test impressed me a fair bit more than everyone else i am comparing him with. He combined brilliant scoring ability with some of the best passing i have seen and the offensive numbers of his suns teams match the eye test here

His defense off ball was rather solid although his size and strenght (lack of) made him a vulnerable target in isolation and probably a small negative overall (+/- metrics seem to usually peg him neutral ish) But i am high enough in his offense to still pick him here

If his defense was as big of a negative as i expected it to be he would have been last of all these guys. But instead he looked neutral in the playoffs game against spurs and lakers i watched.

If i change my mind that his defense is actually as clear of a negstive as the consensus opinions says i will move him lowet

Honorable mentions

4-2009 kobe

I compared kobe and kawhi first for the 3rd spot. Was impressed more with even post dpoy days kawhi defense. Where kobe rarely defends dangerous threats in his 08-10 days and mostly defends at the corner.

He got blew past by a few too many times for my taste, didnt make too many help plays as a roamer to compensate the dissapoint 1vs1 defense. I honestly didnt think he was anythingh above an average defender ( if i was a bit more impressed with kobe defense i would have ranked him above nash)

5-2011 dirk

Dirk impressed me a lot. Willing and underated passer as he doesnt makes too many brilliant highlight dimes but instead makes the right/boring/correct pass quickly and keeps the ball moving. Just a Brilliant scorer as we all know too

The combo of scoring/off ball gravity/ willing and solid passer is just lethal offensively. If i see enough evidence he is even a slightly above average defensive impact player i would move him over nash and kobe

His defensive role in modern eras would worry me but i dont put too much weight in across era hipotheticals

6-2017 kawhi (2019)

i didnt think 17 kawhi was much better if at all than 19 kawhi. His series vs sixers impressed me more than the 17 one vs grizzlies. but i penalize the latter for durability issues and needing load management

Kawhi on the other hand doesnt have as many great assists and brilliant passes as kobe which is why i prefer kobe as a offensive player

althougg kawhi willingness to pass the ball when there is not a good shot available after he starts his moves is a nice positice that bridges the gap.

Kawhi and dirk are very decisive scorers yet domt mind passing the ball back and reset the play in situations where kobe would prefer continuing the play and shot a tough shot
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Re: Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #18 

Post#47 » by ardee » Tue Aug 16, 2022 5:39 am

1. 2008 Kobe Bryant (HM: 2006)

I've spoken about Kobe's raw impact quite a bit in different threads. In this season specifically, he led the Lakers to a 7.34 SRS with just 27 games of Pau and 35 games of Bynum. Odom was the only other player on that team who could generate much of his own offense. The rest of the rotation consisting of Fisher, Vladimir Radmanovic, Farmar, Vujacic and Turiaf doesn't exactly scream a 7.3 SRS cast.

On top of that, he put together a Jordan-esque Playoff run. 32-6-6 on 60% TS against 3 50 win teams in the Western conference, including a 6.9 SRS Jazz team and a -5.7 defensively Spurs team. His Finals weren't anything to write home about but honestly were not any worse than Jordan against similarly good defensive teams (the '93 Knicks for example).

2. 2009 Dwyane Wade (HM: 2006)

Him and Kobe at their peaks are fairly close as players. I do think Kobe was more impactful though, when you look at the 2006 Lakers vs the 2009 Heat by SRS given the similar supporting casts. Wade was likely better defensively but that's canceled out by Kobe's superior portability given shooting and off-ball play.

3. 2011 Dirk Nowitzki (HM: 2006)

I do find it ironic that we have 3 different guys here who's second best season were all in 2006. But it makes perfect sense for him to be ranked here, considering I have Kobe-Wade-Dirk 1-2-3 in 2006.

That being said, what 2011 Dirk accomplished was an enormous degree of difficulty. I think he is also pretty close to Walton and in many ways was the offensive version of the defensive championship run Walton pulled off in 1977.

The impact numbers bare his lift out pretty clearly, and the box score in the Lakers and Thunder series is pretty crazy too.

In my eyes, Dirk is a no brainer over Durant, and that goes for all 3 guys here.
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Re: Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #18 

Post#48 » by f4p » Tue Aug 16, 2022 2:19 pm

falcolombardi wrote:
3- 2007 nash (2006)


hmm, 2007? he had a 57.7 TS% in the playoffs, a nearly 8 point drop from the regular season. assuming i did the numbers right, the suns in the playoffs were a 111.2 ORtg team vs Opponents at 103.9 DRtg, for a +7.3 rORtg. 2017 kawhi through 2 rounds is at 117.4 ORtg and 108.1 Opponents DRtg, for a +9.3 rDRtg. kawhi missed game 6 in the 2nd round which was a 126 ORtg for the spurs (+17 rORtg), but this doesn't count the 28 minutes against the Warriors, which appears to be something ridiculous like a +37 rORtg (141 vs 104), so it would actually slightly boost Kawhi's numbers to count game 1 and remove game 6. and it's not as if getting hurt in the WCF can be held against him in a comparison of someone who lost in round 2. the statistical difference between the 2 is already profound, and that's in numbers that don't do a great job capturing the defensive difference, and the suns don't appear to have a team rORtg advantage, either.


it feels like people are being weirdly critical and nitpicky of 2017 kawhi with aesthetic downgrades of his game as if we can't believe what the numbers are telling us. his individual numbers are huge, his team's offense was great whether he was great at passing or not (he's not exactly carmelo), and in the very small sample we have, his team played what most consider to be the best team ever and were +23 in 28 minutes (+39.4 points per 48), and then, literally as soon as he got injured, things turned on a dime and his team got outscored by a massive 25.5 points per 48 for the rest of the series (including by 25 points in 20 minutes to lose game 1 by 2 points).


edit: i get the 2009 lakers as +7.1 rORtg, and that's with Houston's defense taking a big hit with the Yao injury. and the Lakers and Suns were #3 and #1 in offense in the regular season while the 2017 Spurs were #9, which once again shows the massive playoff differential of Kawhi.
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Re: Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #18 

Post#49 » by eminence » Tue Aug 16, 2022 3:13 pm

DraymondGold wrote:He’s clearly the best defensive player of the remaining peaks, by some margin.


I won't stand for this Ewing/Mutombo/Wallace/Dwight/Draymond/Gobert slander! (arguably Mikan and Thurmond, though I'm personally not that high on Thurmond)

But I get your point :P

I would like to see Draymond get some discussion fairly soon if KD's getting discussion as they were both on the same team in their primes and it wasn't all that clear which was more valuable.
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Re: Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #18 

Post#50 » by Proxy » Tue Aug 16, 2022 3:18 pm

eminence wrote:I would like to see Draymond get some discussion fairly soon if KD's getting discussion as they were both on the same team in their primes and it wasn't all that clear which was more valuable.


I mean people have the right to vote however they'd like to but I think there's a very clear difference between value in a specific situation and overall goodness. Do you believe Draymond would have similar value to KD in most situations in the league? Was he similarly valuable to GS as KD was to OKC?

I would probably also go with Thurmond over Robinson defensively but why do you view the others(besides Mikan) as comparable?
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Re: Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #18 

Post#51 » by falcolombardi » Tue Aug 16, 2022 3:37 pm

f4p wrote:
falcolombardi wrote:
3- 2007 nash (2006)


hmm, 2007? he had a 57.7 TS% in the playoffs, a nearly 8 point drop from the regular season. assuming i did the numbers right, the suns in the playoffs were a 111.2 ORtg team vs Opponents at 103.9 DRtg, for a +7.3 rORtg. 2017 kawhi through 2 rounds is at 117.4 ORtg and 108.1 Opponents DRtg, for a +9.3 rDRtg. kawhi missed game 6 in the 2nd round which was a 126 ORtg for the spurs (+17 rORtg), but this doesn't count the 28 minutes against the Warriors, which appears to be something ridiculous like a +37 rORtg (141 vs 104), so it would actually slightly boost Kawhi's numbers to count game 1 and remove game 6. and it's not as if getting hurt in the WCF can be held against him in a comparison of someone who lost in round 2. the statistical difference between the 2 is already profound, and that's in numbers that don't do a great job capturing the defensive difference, and the suns don't appear to have a team rORtg advantage, either.


it feels like people are being weirdly critical and nitpicky of 2017 kawhi with aesthetic downgrades of his game as if we can't believe what the numbers are telling us. his individual numbers are huge, his team's offense was great whether he was great at passing or not (he's not exactly carmelo), and in the very small sample we have, his team played what most consider to be the best team ever and were +23 in 28 minutes (+39.4 points per 48), and then, literally as soon as he got injured, things turned on a dime and his team got outscored by a massive 25.5 points per 48 for the rest of the series (including by 25 points in 20 minutes to lose game 1 by 2 points).


edit: i get the 2009 lakers as +7.1 rORtg, and that's with Houston's defense taking a big hit with the Yao injury. and the Lakers and Suns were #3 and #1 in offense in the regular season while the 2017 Spurs were #9, which once again shows the massive playoff differential of Kawhi.


Fair points my friend, but when you say it feels like i am going by aesthetics more than results i feel i need to pushback and defend myself a bit

I am probably one of the most "results first then eye test to contextualize" guys here if you remember my opinions to the point that doc once praised me for being so results/data oriented but that i should probably not stick to numbers that much.

hell notice i may be the only guy here who argues nash over curry in offense (by a hair) and as a offense goat contender on the level of jordan or lebron. And i do it because i think he has more impressive results. I think nobody else in this board has "dared" to put nash where the numbers say he should be

I may be many thinghs but not results oriented is not one of them lol, for better or worse :lol:

Ok that tangent off i want to explain i see 2005-2007 nash as pretty much all comparable, and in straight offense numbers is true the 2005 suns peaked higher and the 2006 suns did it without amare so both of those choices are more than fine

2007 however is really good amd is where his playoff game impressed me the most. Remember he went 21/13 (23/14.5~with modern pace) in 60.5 ts% (back when league average was 54% rather than 57%) against spurs league leading -7 defense, suns had a +8 relative offense vs them. Frankly peak Magic-esque

And the difference with kawhi and spurs offense circa 2016-2017 is that suns were a top offense every year from 05-08. The spurs with kawhi leading them as the superstar just dont have that kind of offensive dominance sample size as nash teams

Is unfair cause he was zaza'd out of that opportunity but i dont have the "sample size" of offense around 2017 to give me more confidence in the 17 result

That doesnt mean 2017 kawhi cannot be above nash. I considered all these guys for the top spot and i may as well change my picks in the next thread
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Re: Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #18 

Post#52 » by eminence » Tue Aug 16, 2022 3:42 pm

Proxy wrote:
eminence wrote:I would like to see Draymond get some discussion fairly soon if KD's getting discussion as they were both on the same team in their primes and it wasn't all that clear which was more valuable.


I mean people have the right to vote however they'd like to but I think there's a very clear difference between value in a specific situation and overall goodness. Do you believe Draymond would have similar value to KD in most situations in the league? Was he similarly valuable to GS as KD was to OKC?

I would probably also go with Thurmond over Robinson defensively but why do you view the others(besides Mikan) as comparable?


Around the league, not certain, but not how I consider play. I do feel Dray in GS was similar value to KDs peak in OKC.

I forgot Eaton!

The others more often than not led comparable defenses and I don't think Robinson is levels above any of them (obviously he could be argued over any/all of them). Robinson more often than not had a decent amount of defensive talent around him, which I feel generally gets more easily forgotten about than offensive talent. I like Elliot a fair amount on defense, don't mind Anderson/Johnson, more meh on Cummings and Del Negro.
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Re: Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #18 

Post#53 » by DraymondGold » Tue Aug 16, 2022 4:01 pm

eminence wrote:
DraymondGold wrote:He’s clearly the best defensive player of the remaining peaks, by some margin.


I won't stand for this Ewing/Mutombo/Wallace/Dwight/Draymond/Gobert slander! (arguably Mikan and Thurmond, though I'm personally not that high on Thurmond)

But I get your point :P

I would like to see Draymond get some discussion fairly soon if KD's getting discussion as they were both on the same team in their primes and it wasn't all that clear which was more valuable.

Proxy wrote:
eminence wrote:I would like to see Draymond get some discussion fairly soon if KD's getting discussion as they were both on the same team in their primes and it wasn't all that clear which was more valuable.


I mean people have the right to vote however they'd like to but I think there's a very clear difference between value in a specific situation and overall goodness. Do you believe Draymond would have similar value to KD in most situations in the league? Was he similarly valuable to GS as KD was to OKC?

I would probably also go with Thurmond over Robinson defensively but why do you view the others(besides Mikan) as comparable?
Thanks for the comments y'all! And haha about the slander :lol:

Just to clarify, I was saying Robinson is the clear best defensive player of the remaining peaks (in this tier). I think I used that phrasing elsewhere in the post, but definitely could have clarified there. That is to say, defensively I have
-Robinson > Wade, Kobe, Dr J, Moses, Kawhi, Durant, Cp3, Nash, Patrick Ewing, Dirk, Harden, Barkley, Tracy McGrady, Westbrook, AD, Mikan, Karl Malone (to use the list supplied by me/No-more-rings).

Ewing's the only close one, but I still have Robinson ahead by a small but clear margin. I guess Mikan is close too, but the era differences are so large there I tend to have Mikan separate from the rest of the list... Mikan's likely better in terms of in-era "value", but I see Mikan as possibly worse in terms of "goodness" (which is how good you are independent of your team/role/opponents/era).

AD's probably next after those 3. After that, I'm not even sure how you'd begin to argue others. Defensively, I have Robinson >> Wade, Kobe, Dr J, Moses, Kawhi, Durant, Cp3, Nash, Dirk, Harden, Barkley, Tracy McGrady, Westbrook, Karl Malone.

[But sure, if you wanted to bring in players like Thurmond, Wallace, Mutombo, Dwight, Draymond, Gobert, you could at least make arguments for them defensively even if Robinson still ends up being the best defender of the group. It's the offense that clearly keeps those players out of this tier of peaks for most people.]
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Re: Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #18 

Post#54 » by AEnigma » Tue Aug 16, 2022 4:06 pm

f4p wrote:
falcolombardi wrote:
3- 2007 nash (2006)

hmm, 2007? he had a 57.7 TS% in the playoffs, a nearly 8 point drop from the regular season. assuming i did the numbers right, the suns in the playoffs were a 111.2 ORtg team vs Opponents at 103.9 DRtg, for a +7.3 rORtg. 2017 kawhi through 2 rounds is at 117.4 ORtg and 108.1 Opponents DRtg, for a +9.3 rDRtg. kawhi missed game 6 in the 2nd round which was a 126 ORtg for the spurs (+17 rORtg), but this doesn't count the 28 minutes against the Warriors, which appears to be something ridiculous like a +37 rORtg (141 vs 104), so it would actually slightly boost Kawhi's numbers to count game 1 and remove game 6. and it's not as if getting hurt in the WCF can be held against him in a comparison of someone who lost in round 2. the statistical difference between the 2 is already profound, and that's in numbers that don't do a great job capturing the defensive difference, and the suns don't appear to have a team rORtg advantage, either.

it feels like people are being weirdly critical and nitpicky of 2017 kawhi with aesthetic downgrades of his game as if we can't believe what the numbers are telling us. his individual numbers are huge, his team's offense was great whether he was great at passing or not (he's not exactly carmelo), and in the very small sample we have, his team played what most consider to be the best team ever and were +23 in 28 minutes (+39.4 points per 48), and then, literally as soon as he got injured, things turned on a dime and his team got outscored by a massive 25.5 points per 48 for the rest of the series (including by 25 points in 20 minutes to lose game 1 by 2 points).

edit: i get the 2009 lakers as +7.1 rORtg, and that's with Houston's defense taking a big hit with the Yao injury. and the Lakers and Suns were #3 and #1 in offense in the regular season while the 2017 Spurs were #9, which once again shows the massive playoff differential of Kawhi.

Do you think 2010 is Nash’s second best year because that was his second best postseason rOrtg?

Sample sizes matter. The Clippers are a very good postseason offence with Kawhi. They also happen to be a very good postseason offence without Kawhi, to the extent that it looks like he has a rather minimal effect on them in the postseason. Do you think that is because he has just become so much worse?

Joel Embiid has a giant footprint in the postseason generally, but especially in 2019. The Raptors were essentially getting blown out in the minutes he played, but the 76ers were so disastrous without him that the Raptors were able to pull ahead anyway. Was he the real best player of 2019? Why did that incredible performance not carry over the next year? Why did Durant go from being the obvious best player in the world last year to being a joke this year? Did he too suddenly get worse?

An argument built entirely off ten games is not an argument. You broadly understand that, which is why you emphasise that Kawhi is a consistently elite postseason performer when healthy, so why the sudden turn to their offensive rating in this ten and a half game sample? Because the 2007 Suns only put up a +8 rOrtg against the 2007 Spurs (including that shorthanded Game 5)? Do not talk about how plus/minus and on/off are nonsense only to go for a poor use of it to argue something no one is really disputing (Kawhi was great in 2017 and had his team looking like an all-timer before his injury).

Say we agree that no one remaining has a six-series playoff stretch as impressive as 2017-19 Kawhi. Do you think that is the end of the discussion, and if so, why do you think others do not feel that way?
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Re: Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #18 

Post#55 » by trex_8063 » Tue Aug 16, 2022 4:52 pm

Lather......rinse........repeat.....

1. '95 David Robinson (> '94 DRob > '96 DRob; all three years above anyone else left on the table for me, if that wasn't clear. i.e. I'd like my top vote transferred to '94 DRob [if that is the consensus preferred season for him] for purpose of tallying H2H's).

Not sure the best year to go with; each has a slightly differing selling point, and honestly I think he was near the same level in all three years.
He might be the last two-way giant on the table.
I think people sometimes fail to acknowledge how extraordinary an OFFENSIVE player Robinson was in the regular season.......they just focus on the playoff decline.
I've made this [only slightly hyperbolic] statement before: Robinson was essentially asked/expected to be Bill Russell on defense AND Michael Jordan on offense for those early-mid 90s Spurs teams.

And the crazy as **** part is: he was mostly successful during the rs.

Frankly if he HAD been able to maintain that in the post-season, he'd have more than a puncher's chance of taking the #1 greatest peak of all-time.

In addition to his off-the-chart box-derived metrics [in the rs], look at his rs impact metrics over this same three-year span:
'94 Top 5 APM (from colts18)
1. David Robinson: +7.31
2. Kevin Willis: +5.44
3. Karl Malone: +5.37
4. Hakeem Olajuwon: +5.10
5. Nate McMillan: +4.85
(NOTE: the separation between Robinson [at #1] and #2 is greater than the separation between #2 and #11).

'94 Top 5 AuPM (Backpicks)
1. David Robinson: +6.7
2. Karl Malone: +5.2
3. Nate McMillan: +4.8
4. Hakeem Olajuwon: +4.5
5. Kevin Willis: +4.3
(NOTE: the separation between Robinson [at #1] and #2 is greater than the separation between #2 and #6).


'95 Top 5 APM
1. David Robinson: +7.42
2. Shaquille O'Neal: +5.80
3. Karl Malone: +4.93
4. Anfernee Hardaway: +4.68
5. Scottie Pippen: +4.63
(NOTE: the separation between Robinson [at #1] and #2 is greater than the separation between #2 and #6).

'95 Top 5 AuPM
1. David Robinson: +8.7
2. Scottie Pippen: +5.9
3. Shaquille O'Neal: +5.6
4. Anfernee Hardaway: +5.6
5. Karl Malone: +5.3
(NOTE: the separation between Robinson [at #1] and #2 is equal to the separation between #2 and #24).


'96 Top 5 APM
1. Michael Jordan: +6.67
2. David Robinson: +5.89
3. Anfernee Hardaway: +5.26
4. Scottie Pippen: +4.99
5. Karl Malone: +4.89

'96 Top 5 AuPM
1. David Robinson: +6.7
2. Michael Jordan: +6.5
3. Scottie Pippen: +5.8
4. Anfernee Hardaway: +5.7
5. Karl Malone: +5.2


I mean, holy cow. You look at these three years, and he's not just outperforming the competition......he's obliterating it! Except for a prime Michael Jordan [in '96], there's no one remotely close to him in the rs.
And these are almost exclusively all-timers he's obliterating.
In the playoffs, he comes back to Earth: down to maybe being only maybe like the 2nd or 3rd-best player in the league. Oh dear.

So how much deduction should he get for going from GOAT-candidate in rs to circa-2nd best in any given year in the playoffs?
idk.....decide for yourself. But don't sleep on how friggin' unearthly he was in the rs.
For myself, he's near the region of Duncan/Hakeem/Garnett; usually just behind, but pretty close.


**Noticeable gap to anyone else for me, considering nearly everyone else I maybe considered sort of close have already been voted in. Getting nigh on FAR overdue for DRob, imo.



2nd ballot: '76 Julius Erving
A hard one to place, given it's hard to gauge the strength of the ABA at that stage. But '76 Dr J is statistically bonkers, and appears to be doing EVERYTHING for this team [that wins the ABA title]. They're the #1 defense in the ABA, leading the league in opp TOV% (with Erving leading in spg and total steals [handily]), 3rd-best opp eFG% and 2pt% (with Erving leading the team in blocks), and he's team leader in DRebs [close 2nd in ORebs, too]. Leads team in ppg and apg, too, 2nd [to a low-volume scorer] in eFG%, while getting to the line more than twice as often as anyone else on the team [making >80%, too].
The one [or two?] games from this season I've seen, he looks like he's everywhere, doing everything. Given he was an NBA MVP in the early 80's, too [marginally past his physical peak], it's easy to believe he was as legit as his numbers suggest.


3rd ballot: oh boy (throws dart)......'14 Kevin Durant ('17 > '16; I think '17 was perhaps the best overal version of him, but the 20 missed games is just enough for me to put it marginally behind '14)
One of the best pure-scoring seasons of all-time (a league-leading 32 ppg on absurd efficiency), and came while being the point of a 6th-rated +3.8 rORTG, despite Westbrook missing 36 games and them having not much offensive power/depth beyond those two. This was the first [or maybe 2nd] year he felt like a somewhat relevant play-maker, too, and also coincides with leading the team in DRebs (they were 9th in the league in DREB%, fwiw). May have been a marginal positive defensively for the first time in his career that year, too.

His playoff numbers decline.....but for cryin' out loud, he was still averaging nearly 30 ppg on decent efficiency, while facing the 7th-rated -2.1 rDRTG (with on of the best perimeter stoppers of his generation: Tony Allen), followed by the 9th-rated -1.9 rDRTG, and then the 3rd-rated -4.3 rDRTG [eventual champs] who had arguably the best perimeter stopper of the decade in '14-'16 Kawhi.

At any rate, he's certainly a worthy consideration by this stage. Other guys considered [for me]: Wade, Dirk, Kobe, Kawhi, Moses, Barkley, CP3.
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Re: Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #18 

Post#56 » by Proxy » Tue Aug 16, 2022 5:53 pm

DraymondGold wrote:1994 Robinson Playoff Film Analysis
As discussed in a previous thread (link to be added later), Robinson already has Top 15 Regular Season peak numbers. When Robinson was given better teammates and a better fit, he has Top 15/20 Playoff-only numbers (in admittedly a smaller role/sample). He’s clearly the best defensive player of the remaining peaks [in this tier], by some margin. The biggest concern is declining playoff numbers, specifically scoring, but to me the film analysis paints a pretty clear picture that Robinson’s teammates are the primary culprits of the Spurs’ decline.


[I hope to update this for the 4th quarter and add defensive comments later. feel free to add your own film analysis to this too! :D  ]


I appreciate you providing a breakdown! I haven't been able to watch this recently and make my own breakdown(WNBA playoffs starting soon too so gotta lock in for that).

I just wanted to comment this because it seems to me that this is maybe *slightly* misunderstanding the concerns that other people may have with Robinson if it was supposed to be addressed to them(at least some which I have). I agree that his teammates were probably the primary culprits of the Spurs' decline, and there is tons of evidence that supporting casts generally show to have a higher correlation with a team's PS success than an individual star player.
Image


But, the argument against Robinson isn't just that his playoff numbers take a dip, but it's that the trend in his scoring also exists in the regular season.
Image

I believe this is some evidence that his regular season statistical profile is boosted a bit more than his contemporaries by beating up on weaker defenses(favorable matchups), and his lack of counters were shown when facing better defenses more equipped to defend him, likely with more versatile bigmen - seeing as how this decline was very much on the "large side" for modern superstars, noted by elgee in his video.

So when I look at Robinson and see these trends in his scoring efficiency even without likely garnering the same attention/game-planning that he would in a playoff series very much in part due to his skillset(still hard to say without more film of regular season matchups, and team situation still does play a part) - when those are coupled with his 'goodness' in the RS being likely a bit more comparable to the other players of this group, it is some of the things keeping me from voting him in much earlier personally. I also mentioned the weirdness with the Spurs on/off collinearity in the PS from the late 90s-early 00s in an earlier thread for a reason I take those with a grain of salt, but very impressive looking in his role regardless.

EDIT: The playoffs on/off post i'm referring to
viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2214973&p=100668283#p100668283
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Re: Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #18 

Post#57 » by f4p » Tue Aug 16, 2022 5:56 pm

falcolombardi wrote:
f4p wrote:
falcolombardi wrote:
3- 2007 nash (2006)


hmm, 2007? he had a 57.7 TS% in the playoffs, a nearly 8 point drop from the regular season. assuming i did the numbers right, the suns in the playoffs were a 111.2 ORtg team vs Opponents at 103.9 DRtg, for a +7.3 rORtg. 2017 kawhi through 2 rounds is at 117.4 ORtg and 108.1 Opponents DRtg, for a +9.3 rDRtg. kawhi missed game 6 in the 2nd round which was a 126 ORtg for the spurs (+17 rORtg), but this doesn't count the 28 minutes against the Warriors, which appears to be something ridiculous like a +37 rORtg (141 vs 104), so it would actually slightly boost Kawhi's numbers to count game 1 and remove game 6. and it's not as if getting hurt in the WCF can be held against him in a comparison of someone who lost in round 2. the statistical difference between the 2 is already profound, and that's in numbers that don't do a great job capturing the defensive difference, and the suns don't appear to have a team rORtg advantage, either.


it feels like people are being weirdly critical and nitpicky of 2017 kawhi with aesthetic downgrades of his game as if we can't believe what the numbers are telling us. his individual numbers are huge, his team's offense was great whether he was great at passing or not (he's not exactly carmelo), and in the very small sample we have, his team played what most consider to be the best team ever and were +23 in 28 minutes (+39.4 points per 48), and then, literally as soon as he got injured, things turned on a dime and his team got outscored by a massive 25.5 points per 48 for the rest of the series (including by 25 points in 20 minutes to lose game 1 by 2 points).


edit: i get the 2009 lakers as +7.1 rORtg, and that's with Houston's defense taking a big hit with the Yao injury. and the Lakers and Suns were #3 and #1 in offense in the regular season while the 2017 Spurs were #9, which once again shows the massive playoff differential of Kawhi.


Fair points my friend, but when you say it feels like i am going by aesthetics more than results i feel i need to pushback and defend myself a bit

I am probably one of the most "results first then eye test to contextualize" guys here if you remember my opinions to the point that doc once praised me for being so results/data oriented but that i should probably not stick to numbers that much.


fair enough. we agree on a lot, so i don't want to belabor this too much. it's just after all the other back and forth, your comment about kobe creating more than kawhi despite the spurs playoff offense being better was just one more seeming "aesthetic" choice.
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Re: Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #18 

Post#58 » by f4p » Tue Aug 16, 2022 6:26 pm

AEnigma wrote:
f4p wrote:
falcolombardi wrote:
3- 2007 nash (2006)

hmm, 2007? he had a 57.7 TS% in the playoffs, a nearly 8 point drop from the regular season. assuming i did the numbers right, the suns in the playoffs were a 111.2 ORtg team vs Opponents at 103.9 DRtg, for a +7.3 rORtg. 2017 kawhi through 2 rounds is at 117.4 ORtg and 108.1 Opponents DRtg, for a +9.3 rDRtg. kawhi missed game 6 in the 2nd round which was a 126 ORtg for the spurs (+17 rORtg), but this doesn't count the 28 minutes against the Warriors, which appears to be something ridiculous like a +37 rORtg (141 vs 104), so it would actually slightly boost Kawhi's numbers to count game 1 and remove game 6. and it's not as if getting hurt in the WCF can be held against him in a comparison of someone who lost in round 2. the statistical difference between the 2 is already profound, and that's in numbers that don't do a great job capturing the defensive difference, and the suns don't appear to have a team rORtg advantage, either.

it feels like people are being weirdly critical and nitpicky of 2017 kawhi with aesthetic downgrades of his game as if we can't believe what the numbers are telling us. his individual numbers are huge, his team's offense was great whether he was great at passing or not (he's not exactly carmelo), and in the very small sample we have, his team played what most consider to be the best team ever and were +23 in 28 minutes (+39.4 points per 48), and then, literally as soon as he got injured, things turned on a dime and his team got outscored by a massive 25.5 points per 48 for the rest of the series (including by 25 points in 20 minutes to lose game 1 by 2 points).

edit: i get the 2009 lakers as +7.1 rORtg, and that's with Houston's defense taking a big hit with the Yao injury. and the Lakers and Suns were #3 and #1 in offense in the regular season while the 2017 Spurs were #9, which once again shows the massive playoff differential of Kawhi.

Do you think 2010 is Nash’s second best year because that was his second best postseason rOrtg?


i brought up the playoffs specifically because falcolombardi brought up how nash looked in the playoffs compared to others in the playoffs.

Sample sizes matter.


yeah, but i can't replay the universe over a million times to see what will happen. this is already a peaks project with a small one year sample and the playoffs in a peaks project are an even smaller sample. what happened is what happened. otherwise we're turning it into more of a careers project. a spurs team that was #1 in defense in the regular season was able to produce an offseason rORtg greater than nash in 2007 or kobe in 2009, despite nash having the #1 regular season offense to work with and kobe having the #3. if that's solely because kawhi can just score massive amounts of points on massive efficiency or whether he was creating enough, i don't know, but that's what we have to go with. it's not like he got a hugely offensive slanted roster to work with. they were 9th in offense and then he took them up a notch. for what it's worth, he beats out 1986 Bird (+8.5), 1977 Walton and his creation (+2.2), and 2004 Garnett (-0.5, oof), 1964 Oscar (+2.4, estimated as best I can), and 1966 West (+8.2, also estimated). And most of these are teams with very highly ranked offenses (Oscar and West were actually #1 in their years). So I feel like it supports my case that playoff Kawhi just was at a level that is hard to ignore. He took a more defensively slanted team and outperformed league leading offenses with peak offensive players in the playoffs. Whether he could have done it for the next 10 games, I don't know. But this is his peak and he did it.


The Clippers are a very good postseason offence with Kawhi. They also happen to be a very good postseason offence without Kawhi, to the extent that it looks like he has a rather minimal effect on them in the postseason. Do you think that is because he has just become so much worse?


Maybe that would make me question Clippers Kawhi a little. Though in 2021, we're talking about a +9 rORtg Mavs series and something like a +14 rORtg when Kawhi played against the Jazz, which is ridiculous. The Clippers just put up some sort of typo-looking +26 rORtg in the 2 games he missed against the Jazz (148 Ortg in game 6, wtf?), though they did fall back to +1 rORtg against the Suns, which would certainly make it look like the Jazz games were indeed a small sample.

Joel Embiid has a giant footprint in the postseason generally, but especially in 2019. The Raptors were essentially getting blown out in the minutes he played, but the 76ers were so disastrous without him that the Raptors were able to pull ahead anyway. Was he the real best player of 2019? Why did that incredible performance not carry over the next year? Why did Durant go from being the obvious best player in the world last year to being a joke this year? Did he too suddenly get worse?


I'm not sure what you're arguing. I'm not the guy who loves the plus/minus stuff. if it's just small sample, then...

An argument built entirely off ten games is not an argument. You broadly understand that, which is why you emphasise that Kawhi is a consistently elite postseason performer when healthy, so why the sudden turn to their offensive rating in this ten and a half game sample?


because someone else brought it up.

Because the 2007 Suns only put up a +8 rOrtg against the 2007 Spurs (including that shorthanded Game 5)? Do not talk about how plus/minus and on/off are nonsense only to go for a poor use of it to argue something no one is really disputing (Kawhi was great in 2017 and had his team looking like an all-timer before his injury).


i only brought it up because someone else did. and people, including you, do seem to be disputing that. we get he's not an elite defender as an argument, we get he's not passing enough as an argument, we get he's not leading offenses like others as an argument. he's putting up 1991 Jordan numbers with almost Magic level playoff rORtg's and he's somehow getting qualitative arguments thrown against him. like i said, maybe i can see quantitative arguments, but even there Nash would lose with not getting out of the 2nd round (if cheap shots don't matter, then i guess the suns suspensions are irrelevant).

Say we agree that no one remaining has a six-series playoff stretch as impressive as 2017-19 Kawhi. Do you think that is the end of the discussion, and if so, why do you think others do not feel that way?


that's pretty much been the entire question i've been asking in this thread. only you really seem to be engaging so i guess i can't say what others don't see. at this point, it feels like 2017 kawhi might as well be mikan. if people just want to ignore it because of the injury, then ok, but much like mikan why even squish it in at #24 behind qualitatively much worse seasons? i mean he has broad box score stats like 1991 Jordan and a playoff on/off of +22.3 for the plus/minus crowd and a small sample but "as good as it can be" whooping of a great team, at which point he got cheapshotted and his team epically fell apart. it feels like if we took the names off, this season would be doing gangbusters in this project.

and in a weird way, kawhi has a perfect backup season in 2019, with one of the 4 sole superstar championships of the modern era, but it's like it gets ignored for 2017 because 2017 seems better, and then 2017 gets ignored for injuries. so we weirdly have the second best playoff performer of his generation after lebron, with one of the great individual championship runs ever and arguably 2 playoff runs even better than that, one that was ended for something that wasn't his fault, and they are getting ignored for clearly lesser playoff performers in a peaks, not careers, project.
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Re: Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #18 

Post#59 » by falcolombardi » Tue Aug 16, 2022 6:31 pm

f4p wrote:
falcolombardi wrote:
f4p wrote:
hmm, 2007? he had a 57.7 TS% in the playoffs, a nearly 8 point drop from the regular season. assuming i did the numbers right, the suns in the playoffs were a 111.2 ORtg team vs Opponents at 103.9 DRtg, for a +7.3 rORtg. 2017 kawhi through 2 rounds is at 117.4 ORtg and 108.1 Opponents DRtg, for a +9.3 rDRtg. kawhi missed game 6 in the 2nd round which was a 126 ORtg for the spurs (+17 rORtg), but this doesn't count the 28 minutes against the Warriors, which appears to be something ridiculous like a +37 rORtg (141 vs 104), so it would actually slightly boost Kawhi's numbers to count game 1 and remove game 6. and it's not as if getting hurt in the WCF can be held against him in a comparison of someone who lost in round 2. the statistical difference between the 2 is already profound, and that's in numbers that don't do a great job capturing the defensive difference, and the suns don't appear to have a team rORtg advantage, either.


it feels like people are being weirdly critical and nitpicky of 2017 kawhi with aesthetic downgrades of his game as if we can't believe what the numbers are telling us. his individual numbers are huge, his team's offense was great whether he was great at passing or not (he's not exactly carmelo), and in the very small sample we have, his team played what most consider to be the best team ever and were +23 in 28 minutes (+39.4 points per 48), and then, literally as soon as he got injured, things turned on a dime and his team got outscored by a massive 25.5 points per 48 for the rest of the series (including by 25 points in 20 minutes to lose game 1 by 2 points).


edit: i get the 2009 lakers as +7.1 rORtg, and that's with Houston's defense taking a big hit with the Yao injury. and the Lakers and Suns were #3 and #1 in offense in the regular season while the 2017 Spurs were #9, which once again shows the massive playoff differential of Kawhi.


Fair points my friend, but when you say it feels like i am going by aesthetics more than results i feel i need to pushback and defend myself a bit

I am probably one of the most "results first then eye test to contextualize" guys here if you remember my opinions to the point that doc once praised me for being so results/data oriented but that i should probably not stick to numbers that much.


fair enough. we agree on a lot, so i don't want to belabor this too much. it's just after all the other back and forth, your comment about kobe creating more than kawhi despite the spurs playoff offense being better was just one more seeming "aesthetic" choice.


Is entirely possible i am underating kawhi offense compared to kobe. I am open to be convinced on that front

Is just that with kobe we have a longer term trend of impressive offensive results from 2008-2010

2008: +5.5 reg season* , +6.8 playoffs offense (over a 4 series run and including a monster boston defense in the averafe)

2009: +4.5 reg season, +6.4 playoffs

2010: +1.2 reg season, +6.9 playoffs

*2008 they had pau less than half of the reg season

They had a great 3 year run overall

For comparision these are kawhi led teams

2015 +2.9 reg season, +2.9 playoffs (1 series sample admittedly)

2016 +3.9 reg season, +4.5 playoffs

2017 +2.3 reg season, +9.3 playoffs* (2 first rounds)

2019 +2.7 reg season, +1.7 playoffs

Notice however that the 2017 result is driven by their blow out of memphis (+13.9) rather than a strong but more "mundane" +4.7 vs houston. Someone like nash had a similar +13.3 offense vs clippers in 2006 but his other two series still are +8.5

Kobe run just looks more impressive to me at a first glance

And here is nash teams for comparision

2005: +8.4 regular season, +16.2 playoffs (highest relative offensive rating in nba history)

2006*: +5.3 regular season, +10.1 playoffs

2007: +7.4 regular season, +6.75 playoffs

2006 they didnt have amare for the season

Those numbers are why i am a bit wary of taking the 2017 spurs offense at face value/full confidence, is much more of an outlier caused by one absurd series compared to kobe amd specially nash higher across the board offensive results

I think is perfectly valid to have kawhi above both based on defense. But an argument based on offensive team results doesnt favor kawhi here
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Re: Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #18 

Post#60 » by falcolombardi » Tue Aug 16, 2022 6:54 pm

was able to produce an offseason rORtg greater than nash in 2007 or kobe in 2009. for what it's worth, he beats out 1986 Bird (+8.5), 1977 Walton and his creation (+2.2), and 2004 Garnett (-0.5, oof), 1964 Oscar (+2.4, estimated as best I can), and 1966 West (+8.2, also estimated)


Nash has two playoffs offense results better than 2017 kawhi (one by a ton) and in 2006 had a better team relative offensive rating im the playoffs despite not having amare and a much better regular season offense

Kobe doesnt have a single playoffs offense ortg as good as 2017 but he has higher offenses across his peak years. This is a single year peak project but using surrounding seasons in the peaj year evaluation is also valid.

And notice kobe runs were across 4 series vs kawhi 2 meaning that over a 4 series sample (lets assume the 17 warriors were not in the way) the +13.9 offense rating blowout of the grizzlies may tilt the average less and give kawhi a much lower playoffs offense run even if his next 2 series had great but not outlier offense too

spurs team that was #1 in defense in the regular season was able to produce an offseason rORtg greater than nash in 2007 or kobe in 2009, despite nash having the #1 regular season offense to work with and kobe having the #3.
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This feels too much like punishing nash and kobe for having better regular season offenses

but if we are going by highest offensive rating nash has a higher one than 17'kawhi in 2006 and MUCH higher one in 2005 (highest ever)

Kobe average regular season/playoffs offense 2008-2010 is a fair bit better than kawhi average circa 2015-2019 and his runs were 4 series long rsther than 2 which makes them more "credible" than 2017 kawhi

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