Who is in your GOAT tier?

LukaTheGOAT · Post #41 » by **LukaTheGOAT** » Mon Nov 14, 2022 12:30 am

I think another case for Jordan is that if we ran multiple simulations of players' careers, perhaps Jordan doesn't retire when he does if he doesn't have as much team success? So maybe if he hadn't won a championship by 93 maybe he isn't as eager to retire, etc. and he possibly plays past 98. He wasn't considered by many to be the best in the world in 93 and 98, when he retired. Perhaps he gives a couple more MVP level seasons in this exercise, but still winds up with 6 or so championships.

I know it is a large logical jump but since we can only view guys in our verse, we don't know how he reacts in others. If you believe 88-93 Jordan is the highest peak and most consistent guy ever in that time-span, maybe you believe he could stretch that prime out if he never leaves?

TheGOATRises007 · Post #42 » by **TheGOATRises007** » Mon Nov 14, 2022 1:17 am

Jordan, LeBron and Kareem.

I go back and forth on putting Russell in there.

OhayoKD · Post #43 » by **OhayoKD** » Mon Nov 14, 2022 1:18 am

LukaTheGOAT wrote:I think another case for Jordan is that if we ran multiple simulations of players' careers, perhaps Jordan doesn't retire when he does if he doesn't have as much team success? So maybe if he hadn't won a championship by 93 maybe he isn't as eager to retire, etc. and he possibly plays past 98. He wasn't considered by many to be the best in the world in 93 and 98, when he retired. Perhaps he gives a couple more MVP level seasons in this exercise, but still winds up with 6 or so championships.

I know it is a large logical jump but since we can only view guys in our verse, we don't know how he reacts in others. If you believe 88-93 Jordan is the highest peak and most consistent guy ever in that time-span, maybe you believe he could stretch that prime out if he never leaves?

a couple mvp years isn't bridging the gap

JordansBulls · Post #44 » by **JordansBulls** » Mon Nov 14, 2022 1:26 am

Jaivl wrote:LeBron beats every "quality of play" and "value added" case, even Kareem's at this point.

And Russell handily beats every "acomplishments" case.

You can add Kareem and Jordan to the mix if you twist and turn your criteria around.

The guy switched teams and stacked the deck switching teams and still a guy in his own era who has beaten him has as many titles that came in after him.

falcolombardi · Post #45 » by **falcolombardi** » Mon Nov 14, 2022 1:26 am

TheGOATRises007 wrote:Jordan, LeBron and Kareem.

I go back and forth on putting Russell in there.

.

Russel argument is actually fairly similar to jordan (absolute team dominance with him as by far the best player) but with more impressive longevity and even more winning

Hell: based on how much a -champion- 69 celtics team fell off after a 35 years old (in tje freaking 60's) russel retired he probably was more impactful than jordan outright in his own era

Russel is the most impactful player of all time which shows in how much he freaking won

JordansBulls · Post #46 » by **JordansBulls** » Mon Nov 14, 2022 1:29 am

eminence wrote:LBJ and Russell for me are the two with reasonable GOAT arguments, though I do rank a few other players above Russell (Duncan and KAJ).

Not sure how. Lebron switched teams multiple times and a guy who is in his own era has as many titles as him that beat him 3 series He has the same number of titles as times he missed the playoffs and all while stacking the deck all despite playing with guys who won league, finals mvp and/or DPOY and losing with HCA multiple times. Someone who is the GOAT will turn an organization that never won into a dynasty not win 1 title in 11 years with them otherwise guys like Dirk, Kawhi, Hakeem would be in that conversation.

LukaTheGOAT · Post #47 » by **LukaTheGOAT** » Mon Nov 14, 2022 1:31 am

OhayoKD wrote:
LukaTheGOAT wrote:I think another case for Jordan is that if we ran multiple simulations of players' careers, perhaps Jordan doesn't retire when he does if he doesn't have as much team success? So maybe if he hadn't won a championship by 93 maybe he isn't as eager to retire, etc. and he possibly plays past 98. He wasn't considered by many to be the best in the world in 93 and 98, when he retired. Perhaps he gives a couple more MVP level seasons in this exercise, but still winds up with 6 or so championships.

I know it is a large logical jump but since we can only view guys in our verse, we don't know how he reacts in others. If you believe 88-93 Jordan is the highest peak and most consistent guy ever in that time-span, maybe you believe he could stretch that prime out if he never leaves?

a couple mvp years isn't bridging the gap

I mean that was a rough estimate but honestly that might be enough for some people.

falcolombardi · Post #48 » by **falcolombardi** » Mon Nov 14, 2022 1:34 am

JordansBulls wrote:
eminence wrote:LBJ and Russell for me are the two with reasonable GOAT arguments, though I do rank a few other players above Russell (Duncan and KAJ).

Not sure how. Lebron switched teams multiple times and a guy who is in his own era has as many titles as him that beat him 3 series He has the same number of titles as times he missed the playoffs and all while stacking the deck all despite playing with guys who won league, finals mvp and/or DPOY and losing with HCA multiple times. Someone who is the GOAT will turn an organization that never won into a dynasty not win 1 title in 11 years with them otherwise guys like Dirk, Kawhi, Hakeem would be in that conversation.

Lebron is the goat cause he has more victories without hca that anyone else

JordansBulls · Post #49 » by **JordansBulls** » Mon Nov 14, 2022 1:37 am

falcolombardi wrote:
JordansBulls wrote:
eminence wrote:LBJ and Russell for me are the two with reasonable GOAT arguments, though I do rank a few other players above Russell (Duncan and KAJ).

Not sure how. Lebron switched teams multiple times and a guy who is in his own era has as many titles as him that beat him 3 series He has the same number of titles as times he missed the playoffs and all while stacking the deck all despite playing with guys who won league, finals mvp and/or DPOY and losing with HCA multiple times. Someone who is the GOAT will turn an organization that never won into a dynasty not win 1 title in 11 years with them otherwise guys like Dirk, Kawhi, Hakeem would be in that conversation.

Lebron is the goat cause he has more victories without hca that anyone else

Lebron has 2 bronze medals and 1 title in 11 years for the franchise that drafted him. He also lost with HCA to guys like Dwight Howard, Paul Pierce and Dirk Nowitzki who at the time they beat Lebron weren't considered as good as we make them out now. He went to the winniest organization in NBA History and has missed the playoffs twice and lost in round 1 including when one year they were 1st in predictions to win it all (lost in round 1) and another year they were 2nd (and missed the play in)
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2021_preseason_odds.html (Lakers 1st)
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2022_preseason_odds.html (Lakers 2nd)

AEnigma · Post #50 » by **AEnigma** » Mon Nov 14, 2022 1:38 am

JordansBulls wrote:
eminence wrote:LBJ and Russell for me are the two with reasonable GOAT arguments, though I do rank a few other players above Russell (Duncan and KAJ).

Not sure how. Lebron switched teams multiple times and a guy who is in his own era has as many titles as him that beat him 3 series He has the same number of titles as times he missed the playoffs and all while stacking the deck all despite playing with guys who won league, finals mvp and/or DPOY and losing with HCA multiple times. Someone who is the GOAT will turn an organization that never won into a dynasty not win 1 title in 11 years with them otherwise guys like Dirk, Kawhi, Hakeem would be in that conversation.

Oh, back to trumpeting 2022/23 Russell Westbrook, 2010 Shaq, 2008/09 Ben Wallace, and 2020 Dwight Howard; absolutely love to see it.

falcolombardi · Post #51 » by **falcolombardi** » Mon Nov 14, 2022 1:41 am

AEnigma wrote:
JordansBulls wrote:
eminence wrote:LBJ and Russell for me are the two with reasonable GOAT arguments, though I do rank a few other players above Russell (Duncan and KAJ).

Not sure how. Lebron switched teams multiple times and a guy who is in his own era has as many titles as him that beat him 3 series He has the same number of titles as times he missed the playoffs and all while stacking the deck all despite playing with guys who won league, finals mvp and/or DPOY and losing with HCA multiple times. Someone who is the GOAT will turn an organization that never won into a dynasty not win 1 title in 11 years with them otherwise guys like Dirk, Kawhi, Hakeem would be in that conversation.

Oh, back to trumpeting 2022/23 Russell Westbrook, 2010 Shaq, 2008/09 Ben Wallace, and 2020 Dwight Howard; absolutely love to see it.

May as well include 97 robert parish to talk how stacked jordan teams were

JordansBulls · Post #52 » by **JordansBulls** » Mon Nov 14, 2022 1:43 am

falcolombardi wrote:
AEnigma wrote:
JordansBulls wrote:Not sure how. Lebron switched teams multiple times and a guy who is in his own era has as many titles as him that beat him 3 series He has the same number of titles as times he missed the playoffs and all while stacking the deck all despite playing with guys who won league, finals mvp and/or DPOY and losing with HCA multiple times. Someone who is the GOAT will turn an organization that never won into a dynasty not win 1 title in 11 years with them otherwise guys like Dirk, Kawhi, Hakeem would be in that conversation.

Oh, back to trumpeting 2022/23 Russell Westbrook, 2010 Shaq, 2008/09 Ben Wallace, and 2020 Dwight Howard; absolutely love to see it.

May as well include 97 robert parish to talk how stacked jordan teams were

Except Dwight Howard, Ben Wallace, Shaq, Westbrook were as old as MJ and much younger than Parish who hardly even played. Shaq was even the all star MVP the year before.

falcolombardi · Post #53 » by **falcolombardi** » Mon Nov 14, 2022 1:45 am

Daily reminder that russel is the most impactful and winning player in nba history

JordansBulls · Post #54 » by **JordansBulls** » Mon Nov 14, 2022 1:46 am

falcolombardi wrote:Daily reminder that russel is the most impactful and winning player in nba history

Actually he joined a team with the league mvp winner and ROY over him. Imagine any other all time great joining a guy who won league mvp and also who had the ROY.

falcolombardi · Post #55 » by **falcolombardi** » Mon Nov 14, 2022 1:47 am

JordansBulls wrote:
falcolombardi wrote:
AEnigma wrote:Oh, back to trumpeting 2022/23 Russell Westbrook, 2010 Shaq, 2008/09 Ben Wallace, and 2020 Dwight Howard; absolutely love to see it.

May as well include 97 robert parish to talk how stacked jordan teams were

Except Dwight Howard, Ben Wallace, Shaq, Westbrook were as old as MJ and much younger than Parish who hardly even played. Shaq was even the all star MVP the year before.

Shaq was 37 in 2010....

Howard was 34 amd coming of a missed 2019 season....

falcolombardi · Post #56 » by **falcolombardi** » Mon Nov 14, 2022 1:48 am

JordansBulls wrote:
falcolombardi wrote:Daily reminder that russel is the most impactful and winning player in nba history

Actually he joined a team with the league mvp winner and ROY over him. Imagine any other all time great joining a guy who won league mvp and also who had the ROY.

The pre russel celtics must have been such a dominant team before and after russel with all that talent then....wait...

JordansBulls · Post #57 » by **JordansBulls** » Mon Nov 14, 2022 1:49 am

falcolombardi wrote:
JordansBulls wrote:
falcolombardi wrote:
May as well include 97 robert parish to talk how stacked jordan teams were

Except Dwight Howard, Ben Wallace, Shaq, Westbrook were as old as MJ and much younger than Parish who hardly even played. Shaq was even the all star MVP the year before.

Shaq was 37 in 2010....

Howard was 34 amd coming of a missed 2019 season....

Rodman was 37 in 1998

JordansBulls · Post #58 » by **JordansBulls** » Mon Nov 14, 2022 1:50 am

falcolombardi wrote:
JordansBulls wrote:
falcolombardi wrote:Daily reminder that russel is the most impactful and winning player in nba history

Actually he joined a team with the league mvp winner and ROY over him. Imagine any other all time great joining a guy who won league mvp and also who had the ROY.

The pre russel celtics must have been such a dominant team before and after russel with all that talent then....wait...

They were 2nd in standings before Russell came (2nd best record in league) and then won 2 titles in the next 7 years after Russell.

falcolombardi · Post #59 » by **falcolombardi** » Mon Nov 14, 2022 1:51 am

JordansBulls wrote:
falcolombardi wrote:
JordansBulls wrote:Except Dwight Howard, Ben Wallace, Shaq, Westbrook were as old as MJ and much younger than Parish who hardly even played. Shaq was even the all star MVP the year before.

Shaq was 37 in 2010....

Howard was 34 amd coming of a missed 2019 season....

Rodman was 37 in 1998

The difference in physical shape between 98 rodman and 2010 shaq was night and day. Shaq was washed up in 2010

falcolombardi · Post #60 » by **falcolombardi** » Mon Nov 14, 2022 1:53 am

JordansBulls wrote:
falcolombardi wrote:
JordansBulls wrote:Actually he joined a team with the league mvp winner and ROY over him. Imagine any other all time great joining a guy who won league mvp and also who had the ROY.

The pre russel celtics must have been such a dominant team before and after russel with all that talent then....wait...

They were 2nd in standings before Russell came (2nd best record in league) and then won 2 titles in the next 7 years after Russell.

Tell me how the did in 70 and 71 before adding new talent like freaking hall of famer dave cowens?

Hint, the drop off in the 70 celtics from russel retiring was comparable to the 99 bulls with jordan + pippen + rodman + jackson leaving

Who has an argument for the GOAT?