When would you generally say LeBron surpassed MJ all-time?

[AEnigma]

LeBron played in a league that expanded once in 19 seasons. And, by 1 team, once, in 2004-2005.

Jordan played in a league that expanded 3 times within 7 seasons. And, by SIX teams, 1988-1989 through 1995-1996. 23 vs. 29 teams.

How did Jordan's teams do against those Expansion Teams? How much did they weaken the league and allow him to dominate more than LeBron has?

The 90s was an expansion league. Michael Jordan won his six rings in 1991, 1992, 1993, 1996, 1997, and 1998. He had two three-peat performances that were separated by a short stint in baseball. While many believe this solidifies him as the greatest, they often fail to look at the league surrounding him at the time. Between the years of 1988 and 1995, the NBA expanded. Six teams were added: the Hornets (1988), Heat (1988), Magic (1989), Timberwolves (1989), Raptors (1995), and Grizzlies (1995). The following stats cover the time between their creation as a team and their first playoff appearance. They include their overall game record, the number of games played against Jordan, the overall record of Jordan vs. the team in those years, and their playoff record against each other (if applicable).

Charlotte Hornets
First Playoff Appearance: 1993

Overall Game Record, 1988–1993: 140–270 (.341)

Bulls Record vs. Hornets 1988-1993: 18-3 (.857)

Miami Heat
First playoff appearance: 1992

Overall game record, 1988–1992: 95–233 (.290)

Bulls Record vs. Heat 1988-1992: 17-0 (1.00)

Orlando Magic
First playoff appearance: 1994

Overall game record, 1989-1994: 106–249 (.299)

Bulls Record vs. Magic 1988-1994: 13-6 (.684)

Minnesota Timberwolves
First playoff appearance: 1997

Overall game record, 1989-1997: 192–464 (.293)

Bulls Record vs. Timberwolves 1989-1997: 16-0 (1.00)

Toronto Raptors
First playoff appearance: 2000

Overall game record, 1995–2000: 135–243 (.357)

Bulls Record vs. Raptors 1995-1998: 10-2 (.833)

Memphis Grizzlies
Grizzlies
First playoff appearance: 2004

Overall game record, 1995–2002: 101–418 (.195)

Bulls Record vs. Grizzlies 1995-1998: 6-0 (1.00)

Overall Record vs. Expansion Teams: 80-11 (.879)

League Depth:
If you look at LeBron's entire prime- let's say, 2007-2008 through 2019-2020:

1. % of teams below .500, overall: 12 out of 30 (40%)

2. % of teams below .400, overall: 4 out of 30 (13.3%)

3. % of teams below .300, overall: 0 out of 30 (worst team was the TWolves at .342 WPCT)

If you look at Jordan 1988-1989 through 1997-1998:

1. % of teams below .500, overall: 16 out of 29 (55.2%)

2. % of teams below .400, overall: 10 out of 29 (34.5%)

3. % of teams below .300, overall: 2 out of 29 (6.9%, Grizzlies .195 WPCT)

Added to that, we have globalization and the flourishing/advanced scouting and player development of international players. Prime Jordan hardly played against any international players, LeBron has played against a huge percentage of his games against the best player from THROUGHOUT the globe, and, a ton of superstars, especially the entire second half of his career.

Apologies to those who have seen this already, but, the contrast in depth of talent is staggering, IMO:





The NBA now features 140 international players from 40 countries on 6 different continents. Compare that with 1988-1998 and you'll see just how much better the NBA is today.

Jordans teams were consistently the best team in the NBA. LeBrons we're consistently top 5. There's huge difference between the two.

^ Yes, there is a huge difference in the quality of their support casts relative to the rest of the league. Good job!

As with every time you spam this manipulated and questionably accurate “metric” — I wonder which of the 6.5-SRS 2011 Bulls, the 6.4-SRS 2012 Thunder, the 6.7-SRS 2013 Spurs, the 10.4-SRS 2016 Warriors, and the 7.3-SRS 2018 Raptors (lol) you are leaving out of Lebron’s record there — again it ultimately compares back to who more often had the better cast. If I need to win with the weaker cast, or on the road, or as an SRS underdog, the only players I would ever possibly consider over Lebron are Russell and Hakeem. And all of that is with you entirely looking past Ty’s point, which is that yes with an improving league it is less feasible to just rely on having the “best player” catapult you to the top of the league (as I would have thought Warriors fans would have learned by now…). Which is why it helps to have a lead player capable of being more than another frontrunner.

Not sure why you want to set out this niche for yourself as the Golden State version of JordansBulls, but it is a pretty bad look.

[oaktownwarriors87]

Jordans teams were consistently the best team in the NBA. LeBrons we're consistently top 5. There's huge difference between the two.

^ Yes, there is a huge difference in the quality of their support casts relative to the rest of the league. Good job!

As with every time you spam this manipulated and questionably accurate “metric” — I wonder which of the 6.5-SRS 2011 Bulls, the 6.4-SRS 2012 Thunder, the 6.7-SRS 2013 Spurs, the 10.4-SRS 2016 Warriors, and the 7.3-SRS (lol) 2018 Raptors you are leaving out of Lebron’s record there — again it ultimately compares back to who more often had the better cast. If I need to win as with the weaker cast, the only players I would ever possibly consider over Lebron are Russell and Hakeem. And all of that is with you entirely looking past Ty’s point, which is that yes with an improving league it is less feasible to just rely on having the “best player” catapult you to the top of the league (as I would have thought Warriors fans would have learned by now…).

Not sure why you want to set out this niche for yourself as the Golden State version of JordansBulls, but it is a pretty bad look.

Not sure

LeBron teamed up a six superstars and created his own super teams three different times. He was his own GM and built his own teams. Blaming his supporting cast for a shortcomings is blaming him. The best he ever had it was in Miami when he had less control, and he bailed on them because he had less control.

That's his own fault.

Jordan was more dominant than LeBron. Jordan's teams were more dominant than LeBron's teams. Michael Jordan just played basketball at a much higher and consistent level.

[AEnigma]

Yep, all those “superstars” who shy of a version of Wade five and counting years removed somehow never led teams as good as Pippen did without Jordan.

Maybe one day you will try to analyse basketball honestly by what is happening on the court. As a Warriors fan, you might even enjoy it! Apparently not today though…

[oaktownwarriors87]

Yep, all those “superstars” who shy of a version of Wade five and counting years removed somehow never led teams as good as Pippen did without Jordan.

Maybe one day you will try to analyse basketball honestly by what is happening on the court. As a Warriors fan, you might even enjoy it! Apparently not today though…

Pippen won two playoffs series without Jordan and Wade won Finals MVP and a Championship without LeBron.

Some how you think what Pippen did was more impressive. I guess as LeBron Stan being the fourth best team and losing is more impressive than winning a championship at least you are consistent.

[AEnigma]

Damn, I forgot Lebron played with 2006 Wade. Here I was remembering Wade with declining athleticism and bad knees. Guess that is on me, no idea where I got that idea.

In before “2011”.

[ty 4191]

Yep, all those “superstars” who shy of a version of Wade five and counting years removed somehow never led teams as good as Pippen did without Jordan.

Maybe one day you will try to analyse basketball honestly by what is happening on the court. As a Warriors fan, you might even enjoy it! Apparently not today though…

Pippen won two playoffs series without Jordan and Wade won Finals MVP and a Championship without LeBron.

Some how you think what Pippen did was more impressive. I guess as LeBron Stan being the fourth best team and losing is more impressive than winning a championship at least you are consistent.

AEnigma is not a "LeBron Stan". He's an NBA Scholar, and, he's also objective in his analyses, (including this one).

Besides bloviating and waxing sentimental about Jordan, do you have any other facts to present to support your contention than Jordan was "much" more dominant, valuable, and greater than LeBron?

[ty 4191]

And all of that is with you entirely looking past Ty’s point, which is that yes with an improving league it is less feasible to just rely on having the “best player” catapult you to the top of the league (as I would have thought Warriors fans would have learned by now…). Which is why it helps to have a lead player capable of being more than another frontrunner.

He did miss the entire thrust of my post. The league average player is simply much better than past 10 years than the 1980's and 1990's. Is that really even debatable with the talent pool and scouting today vs. Jordan's prime?

A couple simple questions for those 100% supporting Jordan over LeBron....(and, Jordan Stans are legion here):

1. How many scoring titles and MVPs would Jordan win playing in a league where about 5 of the top 10 players (and 30% of the league) are internationally born? Vs. 2-7% total internationals and very few superstars in the 1980's and 1990's?

2. Why should we think the Bulls would run the tables in the Finals 1991-1998 against the teams LeBron's teams have faced in the Finals?

[Dutchball97]

In the 2020 top 100 project I had MJ as my #1 pick. I don't think anything since tipped the scales in favor of LeBron but my top 3 was a close decision between them and Kareem so I'm not entirely sure what will be the outcome next time. If anything the main thing that has changed since then is that I have Russell as a legit GOAT candidate as well.

[ty 4191]

In the 2020 top 100 project I had MJ as my #1 pick. I don't think anything since tipped the scales in favor of LeBron but my top 3 was a close decision between them and Kareem so I'm not entirely sure what will be the outcome next time. If anything the main thing that has changed since then is that I have Russell as a legit GOAT candidate as well.

Interesting!! What would change your mind re: LeBron over Jordan?

What specifically changed your opinion about Russell being a GOAT Candidate (FWIW, I now have him #2 all time, moved up from 5th two years ago).

[oaktownwarriors87]

And all of that is with you entirely looking past Ty’s point, which is that yes with an improving league it is less feasible to just rely on having the “best player” catapult you to the top of the league (as I would have thought Warriors fans would have learned by now…). Which is why it helps to have a lead player capable of being more than another frontrunner.

He did miss the entire thrust of my post. The league average player is simply much better than past 10 years than the 1980's and 1990's. Is that really even debatable with the talent pool and scouting today vs. Jordan's prime?

A couple simple questions for those 100% supporting Jordan over LeBron....(and, Jordan Stans are legion here):

1. How many scoring titles and MVPs would Jordan win playing in a league where about 5 of the top 10 players (and 30% of the league) are internationally born? Vs. 2-7% total internationals and very few superstars in the 1980's and 1990's?

2. Why should we think the Bulls would run the tables in the Finals 1991-1998 against the teams LeBron's teams have faced in the Finals?

Prove that Jordan would be better in today's game? You want me to prove something that is absolutely unprovable. We have no idea how good a player would be growing up in a different era with different advantages playing by different rules against different competition.

What we do know is that Jordan was more dominant, both individually and with his teams. His level of dominance and greatness far exceeds LeBrons.

We also know that everyone builds upon the past. However, there are some that come along that build something greater and change the game. Magic, Shaq, Curry, Jordan etc. changed the game. They push the game beyond its limits and did things that no one ever thought was possible.

LeBron like Kobe didn't change the game. He took what he knew to be successful and ran with it.

So how would they do in different eras? I assume that guys that didn't change the game would just be a product of that era. I assume that players that push the game beyond its limits would continue pushing the game beyond its limits. We dont know, though.

Let's kick up your error comparison a couple notches. Thomas Edison didn't have a lot of competition when it came to electricians. How great would he be today?

Don't call Abraham Lincoln the greatest president. Donald Trump faced far greater competition

[Dutchball97]

In the 2020 top 100 project I had MJ as my #1 pick. I don't think anything since tipped the scales in favor of LeBron but my top 3 was a close decision between them and Kareem so I'm not entirely sure what will be the outcome next time. If anything the main thing that has changed since then is that I have Russell as a legit GOAT candidate as well.

Interesting!! What would change your mind re: LeBron over Jordan?

What specifically changed your opinion about Russell being a GOAT Candidate (FWIW, I now have him #2 all time, moved up from 5th two years ago).

I think the main thing I'll need to be convinced of is whether LeBron really got the maximum out of some seasons. I'm mainly talking about 2009, 2010, 2015 and 2019. As it stands I believe Jordan was more consistent in maximizing results across seasons. A year like 2011 can be excused as he was playing a different role and even while underperforming he was arguably still the best player in the league but it shouldn't become a pattern. I'm in a similar boat with Kareem as while it's clear he has everything you want in a GOAT candidate (elite peak, elite prime, elite longevity, strong in both regular season and play-offs, lot of rings, lot of individual awards, elite counting stats, elite advanced stats etc.), the lack of post-season success during the mid-late 70s is an annoying black spot in the middle of his prime. I'm not expecting anyone to take those Lakers teams to multiple finals but it's another case of having to really dig deep into each season to see if I can be convinced Kareem really got the maximum out of it.

As for Russell I'm more convinced that his impact was all-time level in his prime. Back in the 2020 top 100 I relied more heavily on boxscore stats and those paint Russell as pretty consistently top 5 but rarely, if never, as the best performing player in the league. I still ended up with Russell 4th on my list as I always appreciated his consistent results in both the regular season and the play-offs, as well as his unrivaled defensive impact. However, I didn't think his peak/prime stacked up as well to the other GOAT candidates as I do now so who knows if he can climb even further up my list.

[ty 4191]

Prove that Jordan would be better in today's game? You want me to prove something that is absolutely unprovable. We have no idea how good a player would be growing up in a different era with different advantages playing by different rules against different competition.

I didn't ask you to "prove Jordan would be better in today's game". I asked you why you think Jordan would dominate as much, as would his teams, playing against a fully globalized league where at least half the best players are from countries other than the United States. And 30+% are international. Versus, almost no international superstars, and 2%-7% non Americans.

You're making the claim Jordan would dominate just as much today- or even more- which is illogical. Doncic, Jokic, Giannis, Embiid, et all, almost certainly wouldn't even be playing in the NBA in 1991 or 1998. Nor would 30% of the league that are internationals, who have supplanted Americans as they're better players.

Instead, we would instead be subpar players in the 80's and 90's before globalization took over and the best players from EVERYWHERE, not just the US, started dominating.

What we do know is that Jordan was more dominant, both individually and with his teams. His level of dominance and greatness far exceeds LeBrons.

Based on what? Rings? What did Jordan win before they built a Superteam around him?

Hate the "Ringz" argument. Always have, probably always will. Specious and facile argumentation.

I've posted this before, but here we go, again....for emphasis. Bear with me if you've already read it...):

Here's my counter argument to the "RINGZZ" premise and stance:

Jordan didn't win anything until they built a Dynasty around him. Neither did Wilt, nor has Jokic.

Michael Jordan through age 27, Playoffs, before they built a Dynasty around him:
-Playoffs (53 games)
-Team Record: 24-29
-Team Series Record: 5-6
-3 first round exits, including 2 first round sweeps
-Two ECF

Jordan's line: 36.2/6.9/6.7 on +4.7% rTS. Led all players those years in all advanced and traditional metrics in the playoffs.

Nikola Jokic through age 26, Playoffs:
-Playoffs: (48 games)
-Team Record: 21-27
-Team Series Record: 4-4
-1 first round exit
-1 WCF

Jokic's line: 26.4/11.5/6.4 on +4.1 rTS%. Top 3 player in all advanced and traditional metrics in the playoffs those 4 years.

Wilt Chamberlain through age 28, Playoffs:
-Playoffs: (47 games)
-Team Record: 21-26
-Team Series Record: 4-5
-Much shorter playoffs structure, so they're incompatible. Still:

Wilt's line: 33.4/26.0/3.2 on +4.7 tTS%. Clearly the MVP in the playoffs in all advanced and traditional box score metrics.

What did Michael Jordan win before they built a Superteam around him, while also bringing in the greatest coach of all time?

What did Wilt win, while he had coaches (that got fired or resigned every year or so) 1960-1965? What did he win before he got great coaches, teammates, ownership, management around him?

Or maybe, just maybe, it's not how great YOU are, but how great your teammates, coaches, management, ownership are?

LeBron like Kobe didn't change the game. He took what he knew to be successful and ran with it.

How, exactly and specifically, did Jordan change the game in ways that LeBron has/did not?

Let's kick up your error comparison a couple notches. Thomas Edison didn't have a lot of competition when it came to electricians. How great would he be today?

Don't call Abraham Lincoln the greatest president. Donald Trump faced far greater competition

Totally inane non-sequiturs. You can do a lot better.

[oaktownwarriors87]

I didn't ask you to "prove Jordan would be better in today's game". I asked you why you think Jordan would dominate as much, as would his teams, playing against a fully globalized league where at least half the best players are from countries other than the United States. And 30+% are international. Versus, almost no international superstars, and 2%-7% non Americans.

It's the same question. We have no idea how many player would be growing up with different advantages, rules and competition. It's a terrible question.

You're making the claim Jordan would dominate just as much today- or even more- which is illogical.

No I'm not. I'm saying we don't know, and we can't know, and that asking the question pointless since no one will ever know. Players today grew up with different advantages, different rules, and play against different competition.

Based on what? Rings? What did Jordan win before they built a Superteam around him?

Hate the "Ringz" argument. Always have, probably always will. Specious and facile argumentation.

Yes, rings. And individual stats. He was by far and away the best player on his team, the best player in the league, on the best team in the league. It wasn't one season. He did a consistently and repetitively.

And he did lose when he was younger. He didn't win his first championship until I think he was about 26 or 27. The same as LeBron. The same as Curry. The same as Shaq. The same as Isaiah. Guys typically don't lead championship teams until their brains are fully developed in the cross between their mental and physical prime meet each other.

The guys like Kobe, Magic & Tim that did win when they were younger had HOFers in or near their prime.

Saying that Jordan couldn't won a ring before his prime without a quality teammate isn't the slam dunk you think it is.

How, exactly an"d specifically, did Jordan change the game in ways that LeBron has/did not?

That can't be a real question.

Let's kick up your error comparison a couple notches. Thomas Edison didn't have a lot of competition when it came to electricians. How great would he be today?

Don't call Abraham Lincoln the greatest president. Donald Trump faced far greater competition

Totally inane non-sequiturs. You can do a lot better.

No, it's completely valid. You are arguing that growth in population created more competition and that those that accomplished greatness in the past are not as great as those accomplishing similar things today, following the logic that more competition results in better competitors.

You're also choosing to ignore and disrespect the trailblazers that face different challenges and had less advantages. Putting in this context just shows how foolish it is.

[AEnigma]

^ I think if anything you are dismissing those “trailblazers” by dismissing Russell and Wilt and Kareem despite claiming to care so much about era relative dominance.

Which is time and time again the refrain when it comes to Jordan. Oh, Jordan was better relative to his era than Lebron was his own era, but also, we cannot do the same thing for the guys who were even bigger outliers because reasons.

[The Explorer]

James has not surpassed Jordan, in fact its not even close.

[capfan33]

^ I think if anything you are dismissing those “trailblazers” by dismissing Russell and Wilt and Kareem despite claiming to care so much about era relative dominance.

Which is time and time again the refrain when it comes to Jordan. Oh, Jordan was better relative to his era than Lebron was his own era, but also, we cannot do the same thing for the guys who were even bigger outliers because reasons.

This right here, the bigger issue is that objectively speaking, Jordan loses the relative-to-era argument on both fronts. There is no objective argument to be made that Jordan played in anywhere near the toughest environment compared to other ATG players.

The modern era is objectively much more competitive than Jordan's era, and the aforementioned trailblazers played in a condensed league and had to figure out many parts of the game from scratch essentially. Either way, Jordan doesn't compare favorably. (To be clear, of course, MJ can still reasonably be argued as the GOAT despite this)

*Also, while it's a bit off-topic/inane, yes, Edison would not stand out as much today. But we rightfully give a lot of credit to trailblazers even if they obviously wouldn't have the same impact today.

[oaktownwarriors87]

^ I think if anything you are dismissing those “trailblazers” by dismissing Russell and Wilt and Kareem despite claiming to care so much about era relative dominance.

Which is time and time again the refrain when it comes to Jordan. Oh, Jordan was better relative to his era than Lebron was his own era, but also, we cannot do the same thing for the guys who were even bigger outliers because reasons.

Nice strawman. This is a LeBron versus Jordan thread, not a GOAT thread. No one here is making that argument.

[ty 4191]

It's the same question. We have no idea how many player would be growing up with different advantages, rules and competition. It's a terrible question.

You're the one making a definitive claim that Jordan is the GOAT because he dominated his league more than anyone. 1) That's highly debatable, look at Wilt, Russell, and Kareem in their primes, just to name 3 players. 2) It's not a terrible question. It's THE question of this thread. We've been asked about LeBron vs. Jordan as GOAT. That's the topic of discussion.

So, yes, comparing their relative competition is directly germane and apropos of this debate.

My contention- based on actual data- of which you've presented ZERO, is that players are significantly better today than they were 25 or 35 years ago. The league is much broader, deeper, and varied in talent. The league ALSO expanded drastically in Jordan's prime, adding a ton of sub NBA level players to the league, also, for Jordan to beat up on. It hasn't expanded at all in almost 20 years.

So, once again, why would Jordan dominate as much the last 15 years as he did 1984-1998? Why should we credibly believe he would? Give reasons.

Answer the question directly.

That can't be a real question.

It is a real question. Answer it. How did Jordan fundamentally change the game, while LeBron "just coasted" on Jordan's coat tails, as you stated?

No, it's completely valid. You are arguing that growth in population created more competition and that those that accomplished greatness in the past are not as great as those accomplishing similar things today, following the logic that more competition results in better competitors.

I'm arguing that a fully globalized league is deeper and harder to dominate than a drastically smaller and less diverse talent pool.

Are you going to deny this reality, also?

Are you going to continue to so to prop up your (wholly transparent) 90's Nostalgia and rank Jordan Standom?

[ty 4191]

^ I think if anything you are dismissing those “trailblazers” by dismissing Russell and Wilt and Kareem despite claiming to care so much about era relative dominance.

Which is time and time again the refrain when it comes to Jordan. Oh, Jordan was better relative to his era than Lebron was his own era, but also, we cannot do the same thing for the guys who were even bigger outliers because reasons.

Nice strawman. This is a LeBron versus Jordan thread, not a GOAT thread. No one here is making that argument.

Oh please. Over 85% of people on this Forum have LeBron or Jordan as GOAT. Ipso facto, that's the debate.

[ty 4191]

This right here, the bigger issue is that objectively speaking, Jordan loses the relative-to-era argument on both fronts. There is no objective argument to be made that Jordan played in anywhere near the toughest environment compared to other ATG players.

The modern era is objectively much more competitive than Jordan's era, and the aforementioned trailblazers played in a condensed league and had to figure out many parts of the game from scratch essentially. Either way, Jordan doesn't compare favorably.

This. Exactly. Perfectly phrased and well stated!!