Current Sga VS Peak Westbrook

[HeartBreakKid]

SGA because he’s efficient, not turnover prone, and his style of play actually scales well to elite level offense.

Russ is like a Maserati. Flashy stats and exciting play, but under the hood is unreliable. If he just accepted his role as the second option, OKC would have at least won one with KD

This is what we call revisionism

Aside from the two years after KD left, Russ has always had star teammates, yet he never won anything. Russ cannot play well with other superstars. KD went to the Warriors and looked like a demi god, shooting high 50 to even 60% from the field in the playoffs every round. He is too ball dominant and turnover prone to be a key contributor to a championship team.

Ever wonder why Westbrook's peak coincides with having a bad team around him? That's your answer.

But...Durant and Westbrook almost did win titles and have defeated championship level teams. Westbrook's peak does coincides with the best or 2nd best team in the league - you're thinking of his triple double season in 2017, he was just as good in 2016.

The Durant point - let me get this clear, correct me if I am putting words in your mouth. But you're saying Durant was a demi-god by joining a 73 win team and that is proof that he can play with other superstars?

You could just as easily say that Durant can't win anything if he doesn't play un an unrealistically stacked team. I could win a title if I joined the 96 Bulls also.


Thinking that if Westbrook played with another MVP and 2 all-stars while he is in his prime that that team would never win because you're essentially imagining Westbrook shooting airballs and chucking the ball in the crowd is rather naïve. Talent is going to win at a certain point regardless of fit. Durant wasn't the "perfect" fit for the Warriors, he was just a top 5 player joining a team that was already god tier.

The Thunder literally almost won with Westbrook already on it like two different times, and the seasons in between had injuries that stifled their progress.

[Pelly24]

This is A LOT closer than people realize.

SGA is a certified BUCKET against nearly any defense. Peak Westbrook could be slowed by slowing the pace and allowing him to shoot.

I'd still take peak Westbrook because I haven't seen enough of SGA in the playoffs to give an accurate reading, but what he's shown so far is that his game translates well to more physicality and slower pace..

He could be "slowed" I guess as far as scoring efficiently, but scoring efficiently doesn't always equal being super impactful. There was pretty much no playoff series between 2012 and 2017 where he was significantly "slowed," as the Thunder always went at least to the conference finals or the finals itself (2012). The Thunder actually beat the Rockets by a not insignificant margin when he was on the court in the 2017 playoffs. And mind you, he was doing this against Kobe and Pau, Kawhi and LaMarcus Aldridge and Tony Parker and Manu, CP3 and Blake Griffin, LeBron - Wade - Bosh, I think Memphis ... he was going against elite teams the entire time and playing very well the whole time. We haven't seen SGA significantly in the playoffs yet. Russ was very effective in the playoffs.

[BlackThought]

Give me SGA all day. The current SGA is almost a perfect player. You can put him on any team and he'll fit in seamlessly, like a young Kawhi Leonard (with less defense of course).

Don't get me wrong Young Russ was incredible but the fact that he never had a reliable outside shot puts him behind SGA for me. At the end of the game if I need a finisher I'm going with SGA just like I'm going with Durant over Russ on those OKC teams.

[Asianiac_24]

This is what we call revisionism

Aside from the two years after KD left, Russ has always had star teammates, yet he never won anything. Russ cannot play well with other superstars. KD went to the Warriors and looked like a demi god, shooting high 50 to even 60% from the field in the playoffs every round. He is too ball dominant and turnover prone to be a key contributor to a championship team.

Ever wonder why Westbrook's peak coincides with having a bad team around him? That's your answer.

But...Durant and Westbrook almost did win titles and have defeated championship level teams. Westbrook's peak does coincides with the best or 2nd best team in the league - you're thinking of his triple double season in 2017, he was just as good in 2016.

The Durant point - let me get this clear, correct me if I am putting words in your mouth. But you're saying Durant was a demi-god by joining a 73 win team and that is proof that he can play with other superstars?

You could just as easily say that Durant can't win anything if he doesn't play un an unrealistically stacked team. I could win a title if I joined the 96 Bulls also.


Thinking that if Westbrook played with another MVP and 2 all-stars while he is in his prime that that team would never win because you're essentially imagining Westbrook shooting airballs and chucking the ball in the crowd is rather naïve. Talent is going to win at a certain point regardless of fit. Durant wasn't the "perfect" fit for the Warriors, he was just a top 5 player joining a team that was already god tier.

The Thunder literally almost won with Westbrook already on it like two different times, and the seasons in between had injuries that stifled their progress.

Westbrook in 2016 shot more shots than KD, with horrible efficiency and high turnover. I think OKC would have been a lot better if Westbrook would shoot less and give those shots to KD, and that is a very shared opinion during that time as well. This is not revisionist history.

Durant's shooting percentages shot up dramatically when he left to join the Warriors. Obviously that team is stacked to the brims. However, imagine it was Westbrook that joined the Warriors instead. Is the 2017 Warriors with Westbrook instead even better than 2016 Warriors? I don't think 2017 Warriors with Westbrook beats the Cavaliers, and IMO unless 2017 Westbrook is willing to take on a bench role, they become worse. Westbrook puts a significant ceiling on your team.

Look at the list of teammates that Westbrook has played with in his career. You could replace him with Jeff Teague and he would have won a championship.

-Kevin Durant/James Harden
-Kevin Durant
-Paul George/Carmelo Anthony
-Bradley Beal
-LeBron James/Anthony Davis
- Paul George/Kawhi Leonard/James Harden (current)

[Cavsfansince84]

But...Durant and Westbrook almost did win titles and have defeated championship level teams. Westbrook's peak does coincides with the best or 2nd best team in the league - you're thinking of his triple double season in 2017, he was just as good in 2016.

The Durant point - let me get this clear, correct me if I am putting words in your mouth. But you're saying Durant was a demi-god by joining a 73 win team and that is proof that he can play with other superstars?

You could just as easily say that Durant can't win anything if he doesn't play un an unrealistically stacked team. I could win a title if I joined the 96 Bulls also.


Thinking that if Westbrook played with another MVP and 2 all-stars while he is in his prime that that team would never win because you're essentially imagining Westbrook shooting airballs and chucking the ball in the crowd is rather naïve. Talent is going to win at a certain point regardless of fit. Durant wasn't the "perfect" fit for the Warriors, he was just a top 5 player joining a team that was already god tier.

The Thunder literally almost won with Westbrook already on it like two different times, and the seasons in between had injuries that stifled their progress.

It's something of a conundrum when you talk about playoff WB imo. I mean even in playoffs where his team went far he could be extremely up and down from series to series. Then in series such as the 2016 wcf it happened in the same series where he was very good then terrible in the final 3 games(though you could say the same about KD). It's like you never know what version of WB you were going to get. I think you are right though that SGA has to prove more in the playoffs before we can argue that he's better than peak WB(which is really prime WB outside of him putting up triple double's for a couple seasons). Which is why I said if he has a breakout playoff run this year people will be more open to the idea of him being as good or better than Russ. SGA probably has the tools to be a better all around player though.

[Rapcity_11]

This is A LOT closer than people realize.

SGA is a certified BUCKET against nearly any defense. Peak Westbrook could be slowed by slowing the pace and allowing him to shoot.

I'd still take peak Westbrook because I haven't seen enough of SGA in the playoffs to give an accurate reading, but what he's shown so far is that his game translates well to more physicality and slower pace..

He could be "slowed" I guess as far as scoring efficiently, but scoring efficiently doesn't always equal being super impactful. There was pretty much no playoff series between 2012 and 2017 where he was significantly "slowed," as the Thunder always went at least to the conference finals or the finals itself (2012). The Thunder actually beat the Rockets by a not insignificant margin when he was on the court in the 2017 playoffs. And mind you, he was doing this against Kobe and Pau, Kawhi and LaMarcus Aldridge and Tony Parker and Manu, CP3 and Blake Griffin, LeBron - Wade - Bosh, I think Memphis ... he was going against elite teams the entire time and playing very well the whole time. We haven't seen SGA significantly in the playoffs yet. Russ was very effective in the playoffs.

How bad would Westbrook's efficiency have to get to be "slowed" in your eyes?

[MyUniBroDavis]

Tough part about evaluating Westbrook is those rosters he was on in the context of “super crazy good playmaking slashing guard” weren’t exactly the perfect fit, adams sets great screens and they’d flip them and stuff but still

[tone wone]

People are turning this into an evaluation of Russ' entire career as supposed just his peak of 2015-2017.

[GSP]

I'm taking Shai.............keep expecting him to cool down and he's just NOT......

[PistolPeteJR]

Shai is rapidly becoming the most overrated player in the NBA and I'm not sure how I feel about it.

As a Torontonian, I dig it.

[OhayoKD]

This is A LOT closer than people realize.

SGA is a certified BUCKET against nearly any defense. Peak Westbrook could be slowed by slowing the pace and allowing him to shoot.

I'd still take peak Westbrook because I haven't seen enough of SGA in the playoffs to give an accurate reading, but what he's shown so far is that his game translates well to more physicality and slower pace..

He could be "slowed" I guess as far as scoring efficiently, but scoring efficiently doesn't always equal being super impactful. There was pretty much no playoff series between 2012 and 2017 where he was significantly "slowed," as the Thunder always went at least to the conference finals or the finals itself (2012). The Thunder actually beat the Rockets by a not insignificant margin when he was on the court in the 2017 playoffs. And mind you, he was doing this against Kobe and Pau, Kawhi and LaMarcus Aldridge and Tony Parker and Manu, CP3 and Blake Griffin, LeBron - Wade - Bosh, I think Memphis ... he was going against elite teams the entire time and playing very well the whole time. We haven't seen SGA significantly in the playoffs yet. Russ was very effective in the playoffs.

How bad would Westbrook's efficiency have to get to be "slowed" in your eyes?

Effeciency isn't just scoring. Westbrook's creation has generally gotten more effecient in the playoffs to a degree that typically outpaces the scoring drop. sub 20 percent TOV rate on 50+ percent ast while monopolizing the ball-handling is absurdly effecient and notably translated to an increase in holistic impact even against excellent/title-worthy opponents.

[eminence]

As of last season, it was Russ by a pretty clear margin, but SGA is making a case this season, and it's a good enough one I'd lean his way currently. Long ways to go.

[Doctor MJ]

As of last season, it was Russ by a pretty clear margin, but SGA is making a case this season, and it's a good enough one I'd lean his way currently. Long ways to go.

So I would say that prior to this season I'd have probably sided with Westbrook if forced to make a choice, but it was more about SGA being nascent and there being a lot of uncertainty about how "real" what he was doing actually was.

I think some of that uncertainty is still there until we see SGA lead a team on a deep playoff run, but I'd still switch my vote to SGA despite those uncertainties. It's possible that against the very top defenses SGA's various metrics pertaining to shooting volume & efficiency and turnovers will drop quite a bit...they could drop quite a bit and still easily top peak Russ.

Those who really believe in Russ would then tend to point to rebounds and assists, but we've long known that Russ' rebounds weren't actually rebounding-based impact and we know his playmaking decision making really was never that great.

I'd tend to see Westbrook as something of a mallet while SGA is more like a scalpel. You can hope that the mallet gives you enough construction and as little destruction for your team as possible, but you're always just living with problems his lack of precision in play cause and thinking maybe it won't do you in. With SGA you really don't have the same concerns. He has exquisite control over what he and his body are doing out there.

Again we'll see what happens come playoff opponents, but it would take something pretty massive to be exposed to drag SGA down to the realm of Westbrook imho.

[Rapcity_11]

He could be "slowed" I guess as far as scoring efficiently, but scoring efficiently doesn't always equal being super impactful. There was pretty much no playoff series between 2012 and 2017 where he was significantly "slowed," as the Thunder always went at least to the conference finals or the finals itself (2012). The Thunder actually beat the Rockets by a not insignificant margin when he was on the court in the 2017 playoffs. And mind you, he was doing this against Kobe and Pau, Kawhi and LaMarcus Aldridge and Tony Parker and Manu, CP3 and Blake Griffin, LeBron - Wade - Bosh, I think Memphis ... he was going against elite teams the entire time and playing very well the whole time. We haven't seen SGA significantly in the playoffs yet. Russ was very effective in the playoffs.

How bad would Westbrook's efficiency have to get to be "slowed" in your eyes?

Effeciency isn't just scoring. Westbrook's creation has generally gotten more effecient in the playoffs to a degree that typically outpaces the scoring drop. sub 20 percent TOV rate on 50+ percent ast while monopolizing the ball-handling is absurdly effecient and notably translated to an increase in holistic impact even against excellent/title-worthy opponents.

Assists per 100
16&17 RS combined: 14.9
16&17 PS combined: 14.5

TO's per 100
16&17 RS combined: 6.9
16&17 PS combined: 6.2

That's pretty marginal I would say.

And it doesn't answer the question. How bad would his efficiency have to be to be "slowed". It's hard to be slowed statistically when you dominant the ball to such an extent.

[NW BBALL]

Russ was an incredible athlete with an unreal motor but had one of the lowest BBIQs of any star I have seen.

We are talking peak here, not career. And SGA’s efficiency WITH volume surpasses Russ toward winning basketball. If you want entertainment, Russ was fun to watch but you couldn’t build a team around him.

[SportsGuru08]

I've never been particularly impressed with Westbrook's game. Even at his peak, I always just saw him as a stat sheet stuffer. He's never had a well-rounded offensive game. I always thought of him more as a great athlete than a great player.

Frankly, I think SGA is already ahead of him.

[Pelly24]

I just remember, peak Russ was absolutely dominating big stretches. Sometime he would be LeBron. Other nights he would be Kobe. He would just randomly take over the game and score 30 points the last 1.5 quarters. And he did this with zero spacing. I think peak russ could've been at like 59 TS% or so if he'd had more spacing that year.

[TroubleS0me]

bump
lets discuss

[GSP]

Its Sga and i dont think its that close. Far better and more consistent playoff performer. More resilient game w/ his midrange shotmaking and a much better defender. Russ was much easier to stop specially w/o Kd which is a significant factor here as Sga in Okc hasnt played w/ anyone in the same stratosphere

[TheGOATRises007]

SGA