Where would peak Dirk rank in the league today?

[RCM88x]

Hmm, at best probably 3rd, probably closer to 5-6th though. There's two things that really concern me with Dirk's game in todays league. Now he certainly could prove me wrong on both of those if he was playing in this environment but with what we saw of him in his prime I do question it.

First is shot creation, he's just not a guy whos gonna dribble around to get his shot at a high level. Combined with this, guards in todays game are significantly less capable of setting up bigs in the post, entry passes are basically non existent in much of todays offenses. So I worry a bit more about his shot diet than I do with someone who's more capable of getting their own like both Jokic and Giannis are today.

Second would be his relative position in todays game. Certainly an easy slide in as PF in his era but these days I'd think his more optimal position is C, a la an Anthony Davis type. Spacing concerns are alleviated as he's a much better shooter a bit, but I don't quite know if he's as maneuverable. Probably not really much of a concern in the RS but in the playoffs these things are magnified.

[magicman1978]

First is shot creation, he's just not a guy whos gonna dribble around to get his shot at a high level.

Curious why you are concerned about Dirk being able to get his shot but not Jokic. He's very quick and nimble for a 7-footer and was an excellent ball handler that could break people down off the dribble and actually did that pretty often when he was younger. There are some examples in this clip.

Watch on YouTube

[capfan33]

First is shot creation, he's just not a guy whos gonna dribble around to get his shot at a high level.

Curious why you are concerned about Dirk being able to get his shot but not Jokic. He's very quick and bible for a 7-footer and was an excellent ball handler that could break people down off the dribble and actually did that pretty often when he was younger. There are some examples in this clip.

Watch on YouTube

2nd this, even as is prime Dirk was more than fine handling the ball at his size, and if he practiced it more as I said he could probably function as a 3 on offense.

[dygaction]

Haters gonna hate, MVP, Finals MVP, 12x consecutive all-nba… are you a LeBron fan still feeling hurt after 10+ years?

Could we not?

Just report, don't reply, and move on.

well said, why not apply for mod and police here yourself

[Colbinii]

Could we not?

Just report, don't reply, and move on.

well said, why not apply for mod and police here yourself

Because this forum is better when people don't make off-topic accusations. I think we can all agree on that

[dygaction]

Just report, don't reply, and move on.

well said, why not apply for mod and police here yourself

Because this forum is better when people don't make off-topic accusations. I think we can all agree on that

While, then don't start conversations using chains of **** and ****

[Colbinii]

well said, why not apply for mod and police here yourself

Because this forum is better when people don't make off-topic accusations. I think we can all agree on that

While, then don't start conversations using chains of **** and ****

While what?

[DCasey91]

He’d be Durant just in a different way. Also his difference is far superior the more I look into the two.

Rebounding >>>>> dribbling not close. But yeah he’d be right now in peak capacity easily number 2/3 offensive engine in the game (Jokic/Curry if Curry is injured then second).

At his apex is was too damn efficient and effective as a jump shooter.

Very easy build around too like KD, they will sleepwalk great offensive results in any setup.

[bigboi]

I mean I can only really see Jokic and Giannis clearly ahead. I think I'd take Dirk over anyone else. Peak Dirk stands up reasonably well to peak Curry as an offensive anchor btw.

In what way? Not only does Durk not have the playmaking but he’s never ever had Curry’s gravity

[therealbig3]

I mean I can only really see Jokic and Giannis clearly ahead. I think I'd take Dirk over anyone else. Peak Dirk stands up reasonably well to peak Curry as an offensive anchor btw.

In what way? Not only does Durk not have the playmaking but he’s never ever had Curry’s gravity

I think his gravity is different, but comparable. And his last playoff run notwithstanding, Curry never showed the same resilience as a scorer against playoff defenses as Dirk. Dirk being able to create and shoot the way he does as a big warps a defense tremendously too.

I mean, whenever the Mavs made deep playoff runs under Dirk, they were a consistently excellent playoff offense, they stand up to some of the best playoff offenses in history. Often times with basically just Dirk, guards that could run a PnP and shoot a bit, and defensive role players. He didn't have a ton of offensive talent around him, but he was able to make it work because he was that good. It got to a point where his midrange game was just a work of art, that 2011 playoff run was something else. But it's what he was always capable of with the right pieces around him.

[VanWest82]

He'd really struggle defensively. The league just isn't comparable to the 2001-2012 range. You can't get away with playing two bigs, and Dirk would get so much more exposed defensively than he did as the lone big in that era. There's too much space and skill now.

Offensively, he'd be just as deadly. 2011 Dirk might be the 2nd or 3rd best offensive player in the league.

[trex_8063]

Yeah, that's pretty much what people do to discredit Dirk, how can a slow foreigner be good

Hmmm, bringing up COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT nonsense up. Luka and Jokic are slow af foreigners and I consider them better than Dirk. Stop the **** nonsense. The only reason Dirk is overrated on this board is because of 1 ring. FOH. Him and Steve Nash are prob the most overrated players on here. If Jokic keeps losing then he’ll be right there with them. I debated adding harden but his hype came back down to earth

Haters gonna hate, MVP, Finals MVP, 12x consecutive all-nba… are you a LeBron fan still feeling hurt after 10+ years?

We don't want to have to start throwing around warnings (and eventual suspensions when the inevitable flame-war ensues); had plenty of that happening in the last couple weeks. So we'd appreciate it if you [and others] didn't do this. Thanks...

[No-more-rings]

Right, and your provided reasoning only really supports "he would be good", not "he would still be a top 3 player".

Just like how "dirk averaged x/y/z and stats went up" only supports "dirk would average more than x/y/z" not "he would still be a top 3 player'.

Believe what you want, but as of now, none of the reasoning offered in this thread logically leads to "Dirk would still be a top 3 player"

I mean what the hell evidence are you looking for?

Something that supports your conclusion? You've seen how I deal with era-translation plenty, and a bunch of other approaches have been taken(tsherkin and enigma did something more granular in the 97 MJ thread), but if you're not even sure how to support your conclusion, how did you even reach that conclusion in the first place?

What went into "Dirk will be as good now as he was then"

Whatever I say, probably isn’t going to matter much to you anyway.

However, it’s been explained plenty in this thread, that someone of Dirk’s size and skill set offensively is going to translate quite well. Defense is more of a question mark, but logically there isn’t going to more than a small number better offensively.

Dirk was seen as the best offensive player in the league in a season that had prime Lebron(top 5 offensive player ever), and Wade(top 20-25 offensive player ever?), someone who had such massive impact just 12 years ago isn’t going to suddenly going to struggle if he came up playing today instead.

He would have all the inherent advantages that everyone else does, and it doesn’t mean he’d be the best but if we start putting players like Luka ahead and Embiid who’s a lumbering oaf, and almost always flames out in the playoffs due to either injury or just some other factors we’re just starting to get silly here.

Our rankings maybe aren’t that far off, although maybe you should explain why someone like Luka might be better who’s totally unproven and underwhelms in impact stuff relative to his box scores, while Dirk’s impact stuff often looked better than his box stats?

[OhayoKD]

Something that supports your conclusion? You've seen how I deal with era-translation plenty, and a bunch of other approaches have been taken(tsherkin and enigma did something more granular in the 97 MJ thread), but if you're not even sure how to support your conclusion, how did you even reach that conclusion in the first place?

What went into "Dirk will be as good now as he was then"

However, it’s been explained plenty in this thread, that someone of Dirk’s size and skill set offensively is going to translate quite well. Defense is more of a question mark, but logically there isn’t going to more than a small number better offensively.

You said he'd be the third best player. Not "he would still be great". You're shifting goalposts.

Dirk was seen as the best offensive player in the league in a season that had prime Lebron(top 5 offensive player ever), and Wade(top 20-25 offensive player ever?), someone who had such massive impact just 12 years ago isn’t going to suddenly going to struggle if he came up playing today instead.

Great. Now how do we get from "not struggle" to 3rd best player?

He would have all the inherent advantages that everyone else does

Sure. But so would everyone else, which is why "easier offensive environment" doesn't really mean anything.

, and it doesn’t mean he’d be the best but if we start putting players like Luka ahead and Embiid who’s a lumbering oaf, and almost always flames out in the playoffs due to either injury or just some other factors we’re just starting to get silly here.

Maybe you could explain why putting Luka, a triple-threat scorer with ATG passing and ball-handling(Dirk was not good at either) ahead is silly?

Calling Embid a "Lumbering oaf" seems harsh, especially when we're comparing him to the not spectacularly quick Dirk. As it is, Embid is a great rim/post defender, a hakeem-level post-scorer(better touch, stronger, but maybe weaker at winning position?), and has a viable 3-point shot. What part of Dirk's game leads you to conclude a big gap between the two if they played in the same league? As it is, from a team-performance/impact standpoint, Embid does just fine in the postseason(even with coaching, cast, and health conspiring against him), or at the very least, he has managed as well, or better than a certain Nikola Jokic, a far more versatile offensive force than Dirk, who also has the fairly significant weakness of being a big-man who doesn't really protect the rim.

FWIW, the clippers tried pairing average paint protectors with a bunch of elite-good defenders only for their defense to collapse to average/bad every postseason. What's preventing the same thing from happening to Dirk?

Our rankings maybe aren’t that far off, although maybe you should explain why someone like Luka might be better who’s totally unproven and underwhelms in impact stuff relative to his box scores, while Dirk’s impact stuff often looked better than his box stats?

[/quote]
This is not an era-relative comparison. I'm ranking Luka above Dirk because I think he's more impactful now.

[OhayoKD]

^^^ignoring that so there's no derail

Okay. how does today's offensive environment help Dirk stand out, relative to the field

You're not seeing how the increased spacing and offensive freedom, especially for jump shooters, would significantly benefit one of the greatest shooters and isolation scorers of all time,

Are you not seeing "relative to the field"? As No-More-Rings pointed out with Luka, production isn't impact. Impact comes from relative production, and you've just made a very good point against Dirk's impact maintaining:

a guy who did A TON of his work facing up and creating off the dribble, moreso than most other players? A guy who was one of the best off ball players in his own time, you can't imagine the type of havoc he would wreak on today's defenses?

Dirk is not one of the best off-ball players in today's game. It's an open question if he's even the best off-ball big. The league is now packed with players who create off the dribble. Except these guys also are good to elite ball-handlers and passers. Dirk was able to off-set his limited playmaking with gravity that emerged from his, at the time, unprecedented range for a big-man. Now, there's plenty of precedent so uh...

Dirk's pure shooting ability and off ball gravity would help him even more than Kobe in today's game.

[/quote]
..no. Unless you have Dirk doubling his 3pa without a significant effiency drop or becoming completely different physically, Dirk's value being tied to his off-ball creation is only going to hurt him as off-ball creation becomes more and more commonplace. Kobe might benefit because he was in the 90th percentile for execution of basically every type of offensive play and had his impact suppressed by being put in the triangle after illegal defense rules were abloished. Dirk however, wasn't competitng with Kobe as an offensive force because of versatility. He was competitive with Kobe because his shooting was a big big outlier. Now it isn't.

[Texas Chuck]

It is hilarious to me that someone continues to speak as it were Dirk's 3-pt shooting that created his gravity. You simply didn't follow
Dirk's career at all if you think that is the case.

Dirk killed teams mainly in 2 ways--he was the best PNR big of all-time. Teams never left him. Ever. At first that meant Nash wrecking you. But even after he left, it meant Jason Terry getting a million wide open jumpers or Barea living in the paint. And Dirk at the high post with a live dribble was just an impossible task for a defense. Play him with a small, one of the GOAT mid-range artists just shoots over him. Play him with a big? Well now he takes him off the dribble and draws fouls, which he converts at an elite level or simply takes his fadeaway which the big can't stop anyway. So then you double, except Dirk was so decisive and quick and correct with every pass then the ball swings and open corner 3's.

Like this is so well known, why are we inventing some other scenario just to dismiss him. It's fine to think he might not be as effective today. We are all guessing. But we can't just make stuff up about his actual career lol. Dirk was not standing out behind the 3-pt line pulling bigs out. Almost all of his 3-pt attempts were trail 3's. He has entire seasons where he doesn't make even 1 corner 3.

He was only a stretch big the last couple seasons of his career. Anyone calling him a stretch big simply does not know his career. Yes, he was a good 3-pt shooter. But no, that was not his game. He wasn't souped up Davis Bertans lol.

[therealbig3]

Lol Dirk wasn’t that big of an outlier in terms of being a big that could shoot. There were plenty of bigs that had 3pt range, certainly by the time he was in the latter half of his prime. None of them were close to as good as Dirk. Dirk was an outlier because he could kill you from everywhere, not just because he was a big that could shoot well. That’s just…way too basic of a take.

[McBubbles]

In this era of heavy PnR variations and open space, Dirk would be woeful negative on Defense with his atrocious foot speed and poor lateral quickness.

Dirk wasn't a good defender in the era in which he played in; Offenses back then didn't properly exploit his weakness and relied on stereotype of a 'soft European'.

Dirk would be a definite Top 10 and borderline Top 5 player today.

Wat. Prime Dirk didn't have atrocious foot speed or poor lateral quickness. My manz was crossing up people from the 3 point line, he was a very agile big in his athletic prime.

[rim213221]

Much better than LeBron. Better than Durant & Embiid. Probably behind Giannis, Jokic and Doncic.

[OhayoKD]

Well, at least we've dropped "his numbers would go up!!!", so that's neat.

Lol Dirk wasn’t that big of an outlier in terms of being a big that could shoot. There were plenty of bigs that had 3pt range, certainly by the time he was in the latter half of his prime. None of them were close to as good as Dirk. Dirk was an outlier because he could kill you from everywhere, not just because he was a big that could shoot well. That’s just…way too basic of a take.

Because Jokic and Karl Anthony Towns can only kill you from beyond the arc... Sometimes it's better to be basic. Congrats on(kinda?) addressing my point though. Dirk is still less of an outlier now than he was back then, and 3-point shooting is obviously part of that(and that would apply to mid-range anyway...). Hence, Dirk is worse.

Yes, he was a good 3-pt shooter. But no, that was not his game. He wasn't souped up Davis Bertans lol.

It was certainly a substantial part of his game, and uh, see above. Pedantry will get you nowhere. Dirk was not a good passer(sorry "didn't make too many mistakes on dramatically lower volume than actual playmakers" is not my bar), and he wasn't a good ball-handler, and now there is an abundance of big-men who are good to very good at both.

You win games by outscoring the opposition, not by being "Unstoppable"(which no one actually is). That bigs are much better shooters(from everywhere) now is a big big issue for Dirk making a top 3 push.

I'm going to guess that's why you keep repeating "Dirk is not just a stretch big". No, I'd hope not, because then we'd be asking if he makes the nba. Instead, we're asking if he's top 10, top 5, top 3. Let me know when you want to make an argument for that. As of now, all you've really done is conflate your failure to follow what other people are saying as a failing on the people you keep misrepresenting.