Top 20 Offensive Player Peaks

[SHAQ32]

LeBron never shot the ball well enough or dominated enough off-the-ball to be listed as high as he is on these lists.

That... isn't accurate at all.

Great comeback.

But there's no way a perimeter player that shoots 73.7% from The Line for his career is top 5/10 all time, offensively. And I don't care how efficient he was according to some new, hip stat that doesn't encompass enough variables.

Also, LeBron was never a good enough halfcourt scorer. And I'm not saying he isn't a great player. But we're talking the best of the best here.

[tsherkin]

Great comeback.

Weak post, limited reply...

But there's no way a perimeter player that shoots 73.7% from The Line for his career is top 5/10 all time, offensively. And I don't care how efficient he was according to some new, hip stat that doesn't encompass enough variables.

I mean, that's just you leaning into an ignorant stance, with due respect.

Lebron's passing, his foul draw, his own ability to score efficiently... team offense is a measurable thing as well. His offensive rebounding. It's lots of things.

You nitpicking his FT% while having Shaq in your nickname is a little amusing, you know what I mean?

Also, LeBron was never a good enough halfcourt scorer.

So now we know you're trolling, because that's factually inaccurate nonsense.

[homecourtloss]

1. Nash on/off offensive is a swing of +17.1 offense rating ( +16.6 swing without Marion / +25.3 swing without Joe / +17.5 swing without Amare ) - he also didn't upgrade a bad team to just good or great , he uplifted them to be the 2nd Best rORTG ( +8.4 ) of all time behind the Mavs 04 ( +9.2 ). You can attributed some of his impact to his teammates like Amare Stoudemire / Joe Johnson / Marion but their impact corelate with how Nash able to maximize his playmaking and court awareness to bring up the best in each one of them on offense ( it can either be collapsing the defense to leave room for Amare and Shawn to play finish with less contact / His OFFball presence can't make the Defense slack off him to help against Joe Johnson isolation ). Nash mid volume Elite efficiency scoring make him a thread to not be leaving out. I would say Nash Onball playmaking is on the same tier as Magic ( who I got 2nd ) but his Offball movement are more polished + combine with his effectiveness to score everywhere on the floor bring value more than magic offball who's less versatile scorer . Nash while Facing -3.8 rDRTG defense in the playoffs in 2005 he lead a +16.3 rORTG adj. While on court ( Curry need a super team to lead this kind of offense +17.9 rORTG in 2017 against worse defensive -1.1rDRTG. which Kawhi miss the series after game 1 ).

2. The reason I put Curry at 4th is that I do value Onball more and the like of any player I mentioned above ( maybe for the exception of MJ who I still think is better onball ) definitely wipe curry on that aspect. Onball playmaking is more valuable+more definite to an offensive engine Skillsets/ability cause the best O player is the one organize and delivery everything making it less prone to someone else mistake. Curry lead a +8.1 offense in the regular season and have offensive on/off swing +14.9 rating ( +8.4 swing without Draymond / +14.2 swing without Klay ) you will see that Curry offensive uplifted get almost cut by half when his Onball initiator and decision maker in Draymond green isn't on the floor. Curry 16 in playoffs get injured - still part of his peak year so it cannot be left out only lead a +5.2rORTG adj. Against -0.7 rDRTG defense ( Draymond was leading a +6.3 rORTG in a bigger sample size )

3. Jerry west - I might have been to overblown by his Resilience against the best defensive team ever ( -9.4 rDRTG )while his best teammates in Baylor got injured in the final and west unlimited scoring ability still translate to impact the floor. But I can totally see harden Playmaking ability and Regular Season lead offense being better. I don't have much to argue about

4. SGA have elite impact as offensive floor even with his best teammates missing out due to injury or not on the floor with him . +11.1 offense Swing ( +16.2 swing without j'dub / +14.2 swing without chet / +14.5 without I.hart ). His scoring Volume and efficiency with how he score is nearly unschemable especially the Drive ( he lead the league ) to get bucket or FT that make the defense get less touchy cause the foul he draw each time he drive couple it with his elite midrange jumper.
4.1 Luka have ever traits of an Elite offense engine. Scoring ability ( versatility / efficiency ) he can score against elite defense And his playmaking off the PNR is nearly unstoppable due to Luka being able to trap the defensive player to come edge the screen on him because of his shooting as a versatile Scorer or his drive ability with his control of speed able to manipulate a single coverage defender so it obligated a help defender on him leaving the roll man wipe open. With the roll man open Luka ability to find The best way or best timing to pass the ball cannot be neutralize while the defense collapse on the driving/edge defense ( this will help his case as court vision ) and Luka delivery on the lob traits or the bounce pass are hard to predict by help defense ( the other who didn't double Luka ) and even if the roll man get rotate on Luka passing ability that make him elite at everywhere on the court make him create for the Prerimeter open cause the PNR offense. Luka on ball présence is always an advantageous skills and less prone to scheme than others player

5. I do think Wilt playmaking ability relative to era in 67 is more impressive than what bird has in his disposal. Add to that a layer of Offensive Rebounding ability so I take wilt

6. Karl Malone is an elite offensive player in the regular season. Elite scorer with great and effective PNR action in the RS. I don't see why wouldn't he be included

7. Rick Barry might be the more scalable and portable Scorer of his era ( in contention with west ). To catch shoot off ball - to run PNR then pull up jump shot or finish at the rim. His playmaking was decent enough to compliment his scoring. Are you choosing 75 Rick Barry instead because of the IQ and as ball distributeur ? I can totally see that year instead

8. Reggie Miller except from OFFball movement and 3pt ball have nothing on bird offensive ability. Bird is a better volume scorer while still maintaining the efficiency - he a better transition initiator with his court awareness to fing his man for an outlet pass - better decisions making in the half court off a double or off screen - MILES BETTER Screen setter - Better O-Reb ( even if he's didn't box out that much ) his timing and positioning were great - on ball bird also better by just a Facilitor and passer in general

9. Lastly like I state in my post that I could have forgotten some player so TMac could be in the list too

All that is great but Nash did not figure out how to make it work to go all the way in the playoffs where it really matters. The offensive postseason ceiling will always be lower with Nash than a Curry, Kobe etc because he does not offer reliable, high volume scoring that is always needed to win it all.

He has to be adjusted down just like Harden because they failed in different ways to adapt as scorers in the postseason. Always taking good shots makes you look good, but sometimes there is no high % shot available and you need someone who is willing to get dirty and also be good at it - force that 1v1 crossover into an and1, get a midrange pullup shot off, split the pick and roll to get into a huge % play in the paint etc.

Nash has stated he shoulda shot more and he was right, he didnt push himself enough to take that extra level and thus he should remain lower. He clearly had the talent for it, but thats a what if but shown in some of his big playoff scoring games, but it was needed consistently.

Nash’s teams were actually incredible offensively in the playoffs. His teams’ relative offensive rating with him on the floor in the playoffs in his career was even higher than it was for him in the regular season, and also higher than anyone you’ll find in the playoffs. And it was even better in just his years on the Suns. Nash’s teams’ offense got better in the playoffs and were more dominant than anyone’s playoff offenses I’m aware of. They lost because of defense. If anything, Nash’s ability to translate his team to great playoff offense should make us adjust him up, not down.

Basically this. He was never really stopped offensively in the playoffs and has the highest average rORtg per series of any ATG offensive engine. Imgur isn’t letting me upload the updating chart but here’s what these engines look like (light green is Nash):

[MMyhre]

All that is great but Nash did not figure out how to make it work to go all the way in the playoffs where it really matters.

That... isn't really true, though.

ORTG RS (rank) / PS (rank)

2005: 114.5 (1), 118.2 (1)
2006: 111.5 (2), 113.7 (2) [No Amare]
2007: 113.9 (1), 110.6 (2, -0.3 from 1st place)
2008: 113.3 (2nd), 104.1 (12) [Shaq for the last 28 games of the RS, and then into the playoffs]
2010: 115.3 (1), 117.8 (1)

Without Shaq, they were making the offense work just fine in the playoffs.

It's worth remembering that they ran into the title Spurs (WCFs) in 05, the Dallas Mavericks in 06, the title Spurs again in 07 with the suspension, and the title Lakers in 2010 with 35 year-old Nash.

This idea that they struggled to replicate what they were doing in the RS is just not accurate. Their real problem is that they couldn't defend Tim Duncan. And the 2010 Lakers were quite a team.

You can discuss Nash's approach to volume scoring, and that's valid. He should have shot more. We know it, he knows it... but that isn't really what stopped them from winning. And certainly their later formats with, like, Channing Frye at the 5 had some very obvious issues.

But it's worth remembering that the entire journey STARTED when Nash was 30, and naturally his own personal efficacy began to diminish as age and his back issues started to get after him as well. 05-07, though, they very much had a shot. Particularly in 05, when they still have Joe Johnson, but again in 07 when that suspension really cost them after Horry's BS.

Again, there are things to critique Nash in terms of being a GOAT offensive engine and such, but acting like it didn't hold up in the playoffs is nonsense.

I mean, if you cant increase your volume so that your team can win a ring then it doesnt hold up to what needs to be done to win at the highest level. We had a good discussion about J-Dub taking "worse shots" because OKC needs some dirty volume production when its harder to get good looks. You arent a better offensive player if you only take safe and good looks within the offense, than someone who can put his team on his back in crunchtime and win the series. Thats why 09 Kobe was for me a better 1A than Curry, even though Curry has gravity and all his shenenigans, in the end he could be somewhat shut down. Harder with Kobe. Volume and getting shots of consistently scoring matters a lot in the playoffs.

[homecourtloss]

LeBron never shot the ball well enough or dominated enough off-the-ball to be listed as high as he is on these lists.

That... isn't accurate at all.

Great comeback.

But there's no way a perimeter player that shoots 73.7% from The Line for his career is top 5/10 all time, offensively. And I don't care how efficient he was according to some new, hip stat that doesn't encompass enough variables.

Also, LeBron was never a good enough halfcourt scorer. And I'm not saying he isn't a great player. But we're talking the best of the best here.

This reads like as if someone were satirizing an Inside Hoops or YouTube poster from 2008 or something.

[tsherkin]

I mean, if you cant increase your volume so that your team can win a ring then it doesnt hold up to what needs to be done to win at the highest level.

It wasn't about "can't," though. And honestly, they had a good shot at getting through. Their real problem was their defense, not their offense, which was my point. You were deriding their offense, but it wasn't the core issue. It was that he was running into a top-10 all-time interior monster with good help, and then also the 2010 Lakers.

Thats why 09 Kobe was for me a better 1A than Curry, even though Curry has gravity and all his shenenigans, in the end he could be somewhat shut down. Harder with Kobe. Volume and getting shots of consistently scoring matters a lot in the playoffs.

I dunno, man, Kobe's rep is boosted a lot by teams which cleaned up his significant amount of misses quite regularly, so it's hard to argue that without acknowledging how much offensive rebounding from his front line really pushed him forward. He had his scintillating series at times for sure, because Kobe was a magnificent player, but I think you're overstating that a little bit.

[migya]

LeBron never shot the ball well enough or dominated enough off-the-ball to be listed as high as he is on these lists.

It's more that he scored mostly at the basket and not much else in volume. His passing is great obviously but at his position and among perimeter types he looks like he has the least shooting of the alltime great non bigs.

[SHAQ32]

That... isn't accurate at all.

Great comeback.

But there's no way a perimeter player that shoots 73.7% from The Line for his career is top 5/10 all time, offensively. And I don't care how efficient he was according to some new, hip stat that doesn't encompass enough variables.

Also, LeBron was never a good enough halfcourt scorer. And I'm not saying he isn't a great player. But we're talking the best of the best here.

This reads like as if someone were satirizing an Inside Hoops or YouTube poster from 2008 or something.

This reads like someone without a rebuttal in 2025.

[lessthanjake]

All that is great but Nash did not figure out how to make it work to go all the way in the playoffs where it really matters.

That... isn't really true, though.

ORTG RS (rank) / PS (rank)

2005: 114.5 (1), 118.2 (1)
2006: 111.5 (2), 113.7 (2) [No Amare]
2007: 113.9 (1), 110.6 (2, -0.3 from 1st place)
2008: 113.3 (2nd), 104.1 (12) [Shaq for the last 28 games of the RS, and then into the playoffs]
2010: 115.3 (1), 117.8 (1)

Without Shaq, they were making the offense work just fine in the playoffs.

It's worth remembering that they ran into the title Spurs (WCFs) in 05, the Dallas Mavericks in 06, the title Spurs again in 07 with the suspension, and the title Lakers in 2010 with 35 year-old Nash.

This idea that they struggled to replicate what they were doing in the RS is just not accurate. Their real problem is that they couldn't defend Tim Duncan. And the 2010 Lakers were quite a team.

You can discuss Nash's approach to volume scoring, and that's valid. He should have shot more. We know it, he knows it... but that isn't really what stopped them from winning. And certainly their later formats with, like, Channing Frye at the 5 had some very obvious issues.

But it's worth remembering that the entire journey STARTED when Nash was 30, and naturally his own personal efficacy began to diminish as age and his back issues started to get after him as well. 05-07, though, they very much had a shot. Particularly in 05, when they still have Joe Johnson, but again in 07 when that suspension really cost them after Horry's BS.

Again, there are things to critique Nash in terms of being a GOAT offensive engine and such, but acting like it didn't hold up in the playoffs is nonsense.

I mean, if you cant increase your volume so that your team can win a ring then it doesnt hold up to what needs to be done to win at the highest level. We had a good discussion about J-Dub taking "worse shots" because OKC needs some dirty volume production when its harder to get good looks. You arent a better offensive player if you only take safe and good looks within the offense, than someone who can put his team on his back in crunchtime and win the series. Thats why 09 Kobe was for me a better 1A than Curry, even though Curry has gravity and all his shenenigans, in the end he could be somewhat shut down. Harder with Kobe. Volume and getting shots of consistently scoring matters a lot in the playoffs.

I’m not sure what you are expecting here. Nash’s offenses did better in the playoffs with him on the floor than anyone else’s offenses did in the play-by-play era (i.e. 1997 onwards). That includes every single person you might say “increase[d] [their] volume so that [their] team can win a ring.” Those increases in volume did not result in offenses that were as good in the playoffs as Steve Nash’s playoff offenses. Which means that your point about offense is entirely dependent on things that are a result of defense (if you have the best playoff offenses and yet did not win titles, obviously that’s a result of defense). If you think Nash could’ve made his teams’ playoff offenses even better by increasing his shooting volume, that just means he could’ve been even further above everyone else in terms of leading elite playoff offense. It doesn’t mean he wasn’t ahead of everyone else in that regard even without that.

[MMyhre]

I mean, if you cant increase your volume so that your team can win a ring then it doesnt hold up to what needs to be done to win at the highest level.

It wasn't about "can't," though. And honestly, they had a good shot at getting through. Their real problem was their defense, not their offense, which was my point. You were deriding their offense, but it wasn't the core issue. It was that he was running into a top-10 all-time interior monster with good help, and then also the 2010 Lakers.

Thats why 09 Kobe was for me a better 1A than Curry, even though Curry has gravity and all his shenenigans, in the end he could be somewhat shut down. Harder with Kobe. Volume and getting shots of consistently scoring matters a lot in the playoffs.

I dunno, man, Kobe's rep is boosted a lot by teams which cleaned up his significant amount of misses quite regularly, so it's hard to argue that without acknowledging how much offensive rebounding from his front line really pushed him forward. He had his scintillating series at times for sure, because Kobe was a magnificent player, but I think you're overstating that a little bit.

If you lose you cant.

[FrodoBaggins]

No Kevin McHale love? Absolutely lethal offensive player at his peak. Here's an old post from ElGee:

McHale is a good player to bring up. It was indeed in 1988 that the Celtics posted a 117.1 ORtg (+9.4) with Bird and McHale in the lineup for 63 games. I do indeed consider 1988 to be McHale's offensive peak, and your description of him is correct. Here is my impression/question of him at this time though:

(1) By the end of 1987, he wasn't the same defender he was in the mid 80's (foot injury)
(2) In 1988, that physical limitation is evenly slightly more pronounced.

Do you not agree with this? Because while 87 and 88 McHale is one of the GOAT post scorers, and an underrated passer, I no longer consider him the versatile and mobile defender he was in prior seasons. It's possible I'm not remembering this correctly though, although re-watching the games from this year has only confirmed this thought. McHale's post work is simply astounding, and he's still a positive impact defender IMO (he was even as late as 1991 with his length and intelligence), but this is a classic issue of offensive and defensive peak not overlapping.

To be clear, most people think of McHale's 1987 RS of 26 ppg on 66% TS. But he did suffer through the PS a bit with the foot. In 1988, his ORtg went UP and he was part of a GOAT-level offense (117.1 ORtg would beat the all-time mark by 1.5 points!) and then in the PS, he averages 25 ppg on 67% TS! Even when Bird crumbles against Detroit, McHale averages 27 ppg on 63% TS. Keen observers will note that in the famous Wilkins-Bird duel in 88, McHale had 33 points and 13 reb on 84% TS.

I would vote 87 McHale as of now (perhaps due to RS missed games as a tie-breaker), but am open to the 88 season as well.

And from Fatal9:

Discussion about McHale inspired me to finish up this video:

Watch on YouTube

These were his main one on one scoring weapons. Pretty much unguardable at his peak due to the combination of long arms, amazing foot work and maybe unrivaled touch around the basket. So many moves to evade doubles (can turn away from them with the baseline hook or fadeaway without putting the ball on the floor or outright fake them out), the only defense is to literally sandwich him with two defenders before he gets the ball. I really think he would be amazing in a "4 around 1" system like Hakeem had, Duncan to an extent and Dwight had with the Magic. His passing and feel for the defense is really underrated (especially from '86-'88), way too much is made of the "black hole" joke by Ainge (at the end of the '86 season he actually took back the comment and noted McHale's improved passing). In his early years I'd agree with that assessment but not in '86-'88, he was part of some of the greatest passing teams ever, used to make some phenomenal passes and was competent at using defensive attention to create looks for teammates (it's just his role was to score and double teaming couldn't slow him down, he was efficient against any type of defense thrown at him).

Lot of people don't realize but he was actually the leading scorer for the Celtics in 1987 for most of the year, up until middle of March to be exact (this is in a year Bird had one of his highest scoring seasons). From end of Jan to middle March he had a stretch of scoring 28.6 ppg on 67% shooting, 82% from the line and overall 71 TS%. He broke the bone in his foot at the end of March against the Bulls. Was still doing work in the playoffs but defensively he had clearly lost a step. In my personal list I have '87 as his peak and overlook the freak injury, but for this project I would rather vote for '86 over '88. Much better on defense, missed just as many games, a bit more polished offensively in '88 but doesn't make up for the defense to me (he was still a good defender in '88 but in '86 he was great, had much better foot speed). His in/out is better in '88 only because peak Bird did some crazzzzy GOAT level things offensively when he was out in '86. In '86 he arguably the greatest playoff run by a second option ever. He was amazing in the '88 playoffs too but didn't have enough help. They probably get swept if he doesn't make a three to send game two to overtime, but Celtics had lot of nagging injuries to the starters, a dreadful bench and Bird had a horrific shooting series. He was the only one who showed up and kept the Celtics from getting embarrassed.

Vote: 2003 Tracy McGrady

I have '98 Malone coming up next. I don't know what to do or how to comparatively judge Pettit, so if anyone has a take on him, I'd love to read it. Seems like he belongs around here.

Why is Howard leapfrogging McHale so easily? Is it an issue of McHale's health in '87 playoffs (just switch to '86 or '88) or do you guys believe Howard was just the better player?

McHale in a "4 around 1" offensive system built around him would be lethal, way more than Howard, because he could stabilize the high variance you get with such an offense with his unstoppable post scoring (and he has waay more moves to evade doubles). He is a better passer than Howard despite his reputation. His advantage on offense is HUGE. Dwight's offense is so much easier to make adjustments for and shut down in the playoffs. Peak McHale is a guy who had no trouble scoring on anyone or any type of defense. You couldn't slow him down with doubles either because he had shots/moves to turn away from them and score without taking a dribble (like the baseline jumphook which was not only super effective but impossible to block because of his long arms). No one had any measurable success at slowing him down in his prime, especially in the playoffs. With Dwight? I've seen teams put a help defender in the middle of the paint (to take away his rolling hook) and turn him into an offensive foul/turnover machine. Teams can and have made it look remarkably easy to neutralize his post offense. There is a big disparity in FT shooting as well. Dwight is a sub 60% FT shooter and very unreliable game to game (McHale was around ~80ish%). I actually feel fouling him a lot is a good strategy, especially in a game he's getting a lot of touches in the post, because it breaks down the rhythm of the Orlando offense, and he can't make you pay for it at the line (in 2011, Howard shot 15+ FTs 23 times...good right? But his team record in those games was only 12-11).

One thing people need to keep in mind: McHale does not need Larry Bird or any one to create his own offense, he was that damn good at scoring on his own. This is something I feel McHale gets penalized for no reason. In his '87 season he was having almost month long stretches of scoring like 30 ppg on close to 70% shooting , he is still the only player in history to put up a 25+ ppg season on 60+% shooting, was behind in MVP voting to only Magic, MJ and Larry (got about same amount of votes as him). He was unstoppable with or without Larry. I have no personal reason to overrate McHale, I wasn't initially even a fan of his, but after watching hundreds of old Celtic games over the years (Bird is my favorite player of all-time), he gained a lot of respect from me.

Howard is the better interior defender, I don't quite view him as a clear cut DPOY type player as most do. I have tremendous respect for his ability to shut down the lane though. McHale was more versatile (could guard 3-5 comfortably...and I'm not saying this, he has legitimately shut down SFs like Dominique, Dantley and others in the playoffs) and was an excellent shot blocker and team defender himself (staple on all defensive first teams). This is a top 5 defensive big in the league too, so don't underestimate what he brings defensively. The biggest difference is in their rebounding, Howard is better but it should be considered that he has played around stretch 4s who don't rebound while McHale played on a frontline of two other 10+ rpg guys. Regardless, McHale never showed himself close to being on Dwight's level as a rebounder, though I never saw rebounding as a weakness for him. But is rebounding and edge in paint defense (keep in mind that McHale too is a great defensive player) enough to make up for how much more McHale brings offensively?

Vote: Nash
Nominate: McHale

At his peak McHale imo was the best second option ever (would take '86-'88 McHale over '00-'02 Kobe, Pippen etc). So if we're going to give Pippen this much credit, then McHale deserves it too.

His offense was historically efficient (Gilmore fans love this, don't they? ). Only player ever to have a 25+ ppg season shooting 60+%, but usually good for 21-22 ppg on well above 60 TS% (could have undoubtedly averaged more if asked), on top of that we're talking an all-defensive first teamer, 8-10 rebounds (probably more if he isn't playing with Bird/Parish, his orb% was better than KG's for example, but it's tough to boost your average with defensive boards when you have two other 10 rpg guys), a guy who always showed up in the playoffs/finals, played remarkably consistently from game to game, even got enough MVP votes to be a top 4 candidate at one point in his career (despite playing with Bird!), and put up 25/9 on 64 TS% during the championship run of the greatest team ever. The main criticism of him is that he was a blackhole. He actually was a good passer, just not willing, which I don't really have a problem with considering a) his role with the team (not asked to distribute, ask to provide efficient half-court scoring) and b) his ability to score at historical efficiency.

Bird is my favorite player, I don't have a reason to overrate McHale, in fact I should probably bring him down (like most people usually do to teammates of their favorite player), but I can't deny how seriously good he was. McHale would have gotten the recognition he deserved if Celtics won in '85 (if Kareem doesn't pull off an unbelievable performance over the final 5 games). McHale imo would have been the best player in that playoff run for the Celtics and won finals MVP (Bird really struggled after the first round due to injuries). But overall, McHale, based on watching him play, is a guy that could have done a lot more if he was asked, especially as a second banana on a team with less options (higher ppg, rpg, which I guess would get him more respected nowadays), so I hope people keep that in mind.

He's looking nice on Squared2020's 1987-88 RAPM sample. Limited, but interesting nonetheless.



EDIT: Found a specific breakdown of Squared2020's 1987-88 Celtics data—43/82 games, with an 111.4 ORtg (24,685 pts/22,150 poss). McHale has the highest on-court ORtg (115.45) on the team, easily clearing the other starters. Consider that Boston had a 115.4 (+7.4) ORtg across the 82-game season and 117.2 (+9.2) in the 64 games McHale played. Given his on-court ORtg is +4.05 above the team's overall ORtg in the 43-game sample, it's very likely that Kevin's on-court ORtg across all 64 games is in the 120s.

[Outside]

As far as Nash not winning a title, Robert Horry can rot in basketball hell.

[tsherkin]

If you lose you cant.

That isn't how that works, no. It just means you didn't, which isn't the same thing.

[DCasey91]

LeBron never shot the ball well enough or dominated enough off-the-ball to be listed as high as he is on these lists.

Huh? It's Lebron, I mean out of all players are you really trying to justify him not being as high. That's an impossible mountain to climb.

Off ball for your on ball primary engine is very much secondary.

You 1000% want Lebron on ball as much as possible because um it leads to awesome results.... year after after playing around completely different players

We have all the film and all the data on him. Legitimately he's probably the easiest to gauge out of all the contenders.

His PORT is dumb too. Davis, Wade, Irving are like the furthest apart in types of players on a range to score the ball yet time and time again who made it all work? Bron

Then without them in 2018 dude went scorched earth to me that's legimately the best offensive player of all time.

[Top10alltime]

For my top 20 offensive peak ( 1yr peak and another year I think it in contention )

TIER 1 ( GOAT )
1. STEVE NASH ( 05 / 07 )
2. MAGIC ( 87 / 90 )
3. LEJUAN JAMES ( 17 / 18 )
4. MICHAEL JORDAN ( 90 / 91 )

TIER 2 ( SUB - GOAT "Arguable T'1 " )
5. STEPH CURRY ( 16 / 17 )
6. NIKOLA JOKIC ( 23 / 25 )
7. OSCAR ( 63 / 64 )
8. SHAQ ( 98 / 00 )
9. KAREEM ( 74 / 77 )

TIER 3 ( All time Great )
10. Jerry West ( 65 / 66 )
11. James Harden ( 19 / 20 )
12. SGA ( 25 )
13. Chris Paul ( 08 / 15 )
14. Kobe Bryant ( 06 / 07 )
15. Luka ( 24 )
16. KD ( 14 / 17 )
17. Dirk ( 06 / 11 )
18. Charles Barkley ( 89 / 90 )

TIER 4 ( OPOY level )
19. Wilt Chamberlain ( 64 / 67 )
20. Rick Barry ( 67 )
21. Larry BIRD ( 86 / 87 )
22. Dwyane Wade ( 09 / 10 )
23. Reggie Miller ( 94 / 95 )
24. Moses Malone ( 81 / 83 )
25. Karl Malone ( 97 / 98 )
26. Westbrook ( 16 / 17 )

I could have forgotten some player but the overall list would be like this

I would like to see reasoning, of how Steve Nash is GOAT offensive peak level, and Steph is left out of the top 4 in 15-16.
How is J. West in the top ten, over James Harden, and SGA and Luka this high.

I also obviously don't like Bird, but I am very confused as to how 87 Bird is lower than Wilt. And Rick Barry in 67, is not even his best season offensively, yet he is in the top 25, which 03 TMac should be above, let alone above 87 Bird. And if he's above, why not Dwade or Reggie???

Lastly, there should be no reason for 03 TMac to not appear on this list, when Karl freakin Malone is here. He is a 09 Kobe-ish/87 Bird level offensive peak, who had clearly ATG scoring, and sub-ATG PM. All-time level floor raising as well, with one of the worst offensive supporting casts in NBA history.

1. Nash on/off offensive is a swing of +17.1 offense rating ( +16.6 swing without Marion / +25.3 swing without Joe / +17.5 swing without Amare ) - he also didn't upgrade a bad team to just good or great , he uplifted them to be the 2nd Best rORTG ( +8.4 ) of all time behind the Mavs 04 ( +9.2 ). You can attributed some of his impact to his teammates like Amare Stoudemire / Joe Johnson / Marion but their impact corelate with how Nash able to maximize his playmaking and court awareness to bring up the best in each one of them on offense ( it can either be collapsing the defense to leave room for Amare and Shawn to play finish with less contact / His OFFball presence can't make the Defense slack off him to help against Joe Johnson isolation ). Nash mid volume Elite efficiency scoring make him a thread to not be leaving out. I would say Nash Onball playmaking is on the same tier as Magic ( who I got 2nd ) but his Offball movement are more polished + combine with his effectiveness to score everywhere on the floor bring value more than magic offball who's less versatile scorer . Nash while Facing -3.8 rDRTG defense in the playoffs in 2005 he lead a +16.3 rORTG adj. While on court ( Curry need a super team to lead this kind of offense +17.9 rORTG in 2017 against worse defensive -1.1rDRTG. which Kawhi miss the series after game 1 ).

That's fair, due to many other reasons, Nash has an argument as GOAT offensive player ever, he is GOAT lvl offensive after all...

2. The reason I put Curry at 4th is that I do value Onball more and the like of any player I mentioned above ( maybe for the exception of MJ who I still think is better onball ) definitely wipe curry on that aspect. Onball playmaking is more valuable+more definite to an offensive engine Skillsets/ability cause the best O player is the one organize and delivery everything making it less prone to someone else mistake. Curry lead a +8.1 offense in the regular season and have offensive on/off swing +14.9 rating ( +8.4 swing without Draymond / +14.2 swing without Klay ) you will see that Curry offensive uplifted get almost cut by half when his Onball initiator and decision maker in Draymond green isn't on the floor. Curry 16 in playoffs get injured - still part of his peak year so it cannot be left out only lead a +5.2rORTG adj. Against -0.7 rDRTG defense ( Draymond was leading a +6.3 rORTG in a bigger sample size)

Again, if you have Steph there, it's fair enough. He had elite offensive situation, but so did Jordan, who did have Pippen as the on-ball initiator and decision maker on the team, so I don't see why Jordan would be ahead of Steph.

Yes, I do agree on-ball is more valuable and impactful to offense, than off-ball, but as you said in your post, Jordan is the only one who doesn't clear on-ball, and Steph ridiculous gap off-ball is enough, to take him over Jordan, isn't it?

3. Jerry west - I might have been to overblown by his Resilience against the best defensive team ever ( -9.4 rDRTG )while his best teammates in Baylor got injured in the final and west unlimited scoring ability still translate to impact the floor. But I can totally see harden Playmaking ability and Regular Season lead offense being better. I don't have much to argue about

Don't see why Harden's RS alone wouldn't overcome this. But one correction, 64 Celtics was best defensive team ever, not 65/66.

4. SGA have elite impact as offensive floor even with his best teammates missing out due to injury or not on the floor with him . +11.1 offense Swing ( +16.2 swing without j'dub / +14.2 swing without chet / +14.5 without I.hart ). His scoring Volume and efficiency with how he score is nearly unschemable especially the Drive ( he lead the league ) to get bucket or FT that make the defense get less touchy cause the foul he draw each time he drive couple it with his elite midrange jumper.

Yes, his scoring absolutely is lethal weapon, but what makes his playmaking strong enough to surpass someone like CP3??

4.1 Luka have ever traits of an Elite offense engine. Scoring ability ( versatility / efficiency ) he can score against elite defense And his playmaking off the PNR is nearly unstoppable due to Luka being able to trap the defensive player to come edge the screen on him because of his shooting as a versatile Scorer or his drive ability with his control of speed able to manipulate a single coverage defender so it obligated a help defender on him leaving the roll man wipe open. With the roll man open Luka ability to find The best way or best timing to pass the ball cannot be neutralize while the defense collapse on the driving/edge defense ( this will help his case as court vision ) and Luka delivery on the lob traits or the bounce pass are hard to predict by help defense ( the other who didn't double Luka ) and even if the roll man get rotate on Luka passing ability that make him elite at everywhere on the court make him create for the Prerimeter open cause the PNR offense. Luka on ball présence is always an advantageous skills and less prone to scheme than others player

Good job, you presented nice case, I can't really argue much here, but wouldn't this put him over Kobe too?

5. I do think Wilt playmaking ability relative to era in 67 is more impressive than what bird has in his disposal. Add to that a layer of Offensive Rebounding ability so I take wilt

What did Wilt have as a PM, that was good enough to take him over Bird? Bird wipes as a passer, decision maker, and facilitator. Peak Wilt was def a better scorer and all-time offensive rebounder, but I don't see why Bird resilient postseason (in his offensive peak 86/87 he was resilient playoff performer), his playmaking combination with still elite scoring would put him below Wilt.

6. Karl Malone is an elite offensive player in the regular season. Elite scorer with great and effective PNR action in the RS. I don't see why wouldn't he be included

He would be included, just lower on the list. TMac who isn't even on your list should be ahead, and I don't see how he isn't ahead, can you explain?

7. Rick Barry might be the more scalable and portable Scorer of his era ( in contention with west ). To catch shoot off ball - to run PNR then pull up jump shot or finish at the rim. His playmaking was decent enough to compliment his scoring. Are you choosing 75 Rick Barry instead because of the IQ and as ball distributeur ? I can totally see that year instead

This is all great and all, but not good to put him over Bird. Bird could also shoot off-ball, and has the advantages you've listed below except for scoring volume. He also has off-ball movement and better shooter. For portability and scalability that's fair.
But yeah you are right about 75 Barry, but I don't see why he isn't there along with 67. 67 is still great offensive year though, yeah.

And if Barry is ahead of Bird offensively, why not Wade too?

8. Reggie Miller except from OFFball movement and 3pt ball have nothing on bird offensive ability. Bird is a better volume scorer while still maintaining the efficiency - he a better transition initiator with his court awareness to find his man for an outlet pass - better decisions making in the half court off a double or off screen - MILES BETTER Screen setter - Better O-Reb ( even if he's didn't box out that much ) his timing and positioning were great - on ball bird also better by just a Facilitor and passer in general

Good job defending Bird, but completely contradicting your points for defending Barry and Wilt over Bird, so it's either this or Bird below them. Unless there is something missing that I don't know about, you can enlighten me there.

9. Lastly like I state in my post that I could have forgotten some player so TMac could be in the list too

TMac is having elite offensive year that season, he shouldn't be over Wade, but he should be over the two Malones and also Westbrook.

[FrodoBaggins]

No Kevin McHale love? Absolutely lethal offensive player at his peak. Here's an old post from ElGee:

McHale is a good player to bring up. It was indeed in 1988 that the Celtics posted a 117.1 ORtg (+9.4) with Bird and McHale in the lineup for 63 games. I do indeed consider 1988 to be McHale's offensive peak, and your description of him is correct. Here is my impression/question of him at this time though:

(1) By the end of 1987, he wasn't the same defender he was in the mid 80's (foot injury)
(2) In 1988, that physical limitation is evenly slightly more pronounced.

Do you not agree with this? Because while 87 and 88 McHale is one of the GOAT post scorers, and an underrated passer, I no longer consider him the versatile and mobile defender he was in prior seasons. It's possible I'm not remembering this correctly though, although re-watching the games from this year has only confirmed this thought. McHale's post work is simply astounding, and he's still a positive impact defender IMO (he was even as late as 1991 with his length and intelligence), but this is a classic issue of offensive and defensive peak not overlapping.

To be clear, most people think of McHale's 1987 RS of 26 ppg on 66% TS. But he did suffer through the PS a bit with the foot. In 1988, his ORtg went UP and he was part of a GOAT-level offense (117.1 ORtg would beat the all-time mark by 1.5 points!) and then in the PS, he averages 25 ppg on 67% TS! Even when Bird crumbles against Detroit, McHale averages 27 ppg on 63% TS. Keen observers will note that in the famous Wilkins-Bird duel in 88, McHale had 33 points and 13 reb on 84% TS.

I would vote 87 McHale as of now (perhaps due to RS missed games as a tie-breaker), but am open to the 88 season as well.

And from Fatal9:

Discussion about McHale inspired me to finish up this video:

Watch on YouTube

These were his main one on one scoring weapons. Pretty much unguardable at his peak due to the combination of long arms, amazing foot work and maybe unrivaled touch around the basket. So many moves to evade doubles (can turn away from them with the baseline hook or fadeaway without putting the ball on the floor or outright fake them out), the only defense is to literally sandwich him with two defenders before he gets the ball. I really think he would be amazing in a "4 around 1" system like Hakeem had, Duncan to an extent and Dwight had with the Magic. His passing and feel for the defense is really underrated (especially from '86-'88), way too much is made of the "black hole" joke by Ainge (at the end of the '86 season he actually took back the comment and noted McHale's improved passing). In his early years I'd agree with that assessment but not in '86-'88, he was part of some of the greatest passing teams ever, used to make some phenomenal passes and was competent at using defensive attention to create looks for teammates (it's just his role was to score and double teaming couldn't slow him down, he was efficient against any type of defense thrown at him).

Lot of people don't realize but he was actually the leading scorer for the Celtics in 1987 for most of the year, up until middle of March to be exact (this is in a year Bird had one of his highest scoring seasons). From end of Jan to middle March he had a stretch of scoring 28.6 ppg on 67% shooting, 82% from the line and overall 71 TS%. He broke the bone in his foot at the end of March against the Bulls. Was still doing work in the playoffs but defensively he had clearly lost a step. In my personal list I have '87 as his peak and overlook the freak injury, but for this project I would rather vote for '86 over '88. Much better on defense, missed just as many games, a bit more polished offensively in '88 but doesn't make up for the defense to me (he was still a good defender in '88 but in '86 he was great, had much better foot speed). His in/out is better in '88 only because peak Bird did some crazzzzy GOAT level things offensively when he was out in '86. In '86 he arguably the greatest playoff run by a second option ever. He was amazing in the '88 playoffs too but didn't have enough help. They probably get swept if he doesn't make a three to send game two to overtime, but Celtics had lot of nagging injuries to the starters, a dreadful bench and Bird had a horrific shooting series. He was the only one who showed up and kept the Celtics from getting embarrassed.

Vote: 2003 Tracy McGrady

I have '98 Malone coming up next. I don't know what to do or how to comparatively judge Pettit, so if anyone has a take on him, I'd love to read it. Seems like he belongs around here.

Why is Howard leapfrogging McHale so easily? Is it an issue of McHale's health in '87 playoffs (just switch to '86 or '88) or do you guys believe Howard was just the better player?

McHale in a "4 around 1" offensive system built around him would be lethal, way more than Howard, because he could stabilize the high variance you get with such an offense with his unstoppable post scoring (and he has waay more moves to evade doubles). He is a better passer than Howard despite his reputation. His advantage on offense is HUGE. Dwight's offense is so much easier to make adjustments for and shut down in the playoffs. Peak McHale is a guy who had no trouble scoring on anyone or any type of defense. You couldn't slow him down with doubles either because he had shots/moves to turn away from them and score without taking a dribble (like the baseline jumphook which was not only super effective but impossible to block because of his long arms). No one had any measurable success at slowing him down in his prime, especially in the playoffs. With Dwight? I've seen teams put a help defender in the middle of the paint (to take away his rolling hook) and turn him into an offensive foul/turnover machine. Teams can and have made it look remarkably easy to neutralize his post offense. There is a big disparity in FT shooting as well. Dwight is a sub 60% FT shooter and very unreliable game to game (McHale was around ~80ish%). I actually feel fouling him a lot is a good strategy, especially in a game he's getting a lot of touches in the post, because it breaks down the rhythm of the Orlando offense, and he can't make you pay for it at the line (in 2011, Howard shot 15+ FTs 23 times...good right? But his team record in those games was only 12-11).

One thing people need to keep in mind: McHale does not need Larry Bird or any one to create his own offense, he was that damn good at scoring on his own. This is something I feel McHale gets penalized for no reason. In his '87 season he was having almost month long stretches of scoring like 30 ppg on close to 70% shooting , he is still the only player in history to put up a 25+ ppg season on 60+% shooting, was behind in MVP voting to only Magic, MJ and Larry (got about same amount of votes as him). He was unstoppable with or without Larry. I have no personal reason to overrate McHale, I wasn't initially even a fan of his, but after watching hundreds of old Celtic games over the years (Bird is my favorite player of all-time), he gained a lot of respect from me.

Howard is the better interior defender, I don't quite view him as a clear cut DPOY type player as most do. I have tremendous respect for his ability to shut down the lane though. McHale was more versatile (could guard 3-5 comfortably...and I'm not saying this, he has legitimately shut down SFs like Dominique, Dantley and others in the playoffs) and was an excellent shot blocker and team defender himself (staple on all defensive first teams). This is a top 5 defensive big in the league too, so don't underestimate what he brings defensively. The biggest difference is in their rebounding, Howard is better but it should be considered that he has played around stretch 4s who don't rebound while McHale played on a frontline of two other 10+ rpg guys. Regardless, McHale never showed himself close to being on Dwight's level as a rebounder, though I never saw rebounding as a weakness for him. But is rebounding and edge in paint defense (keep in mind that McHale too is a great defensive player) enough to make up for how much more McHale brings offensively?

Vote: Nash
Nominate: McHale

At his peak McHale imo was the best second option ever (would take '86-'88 McHale over '00-'02 Kobe, Pippen etc). So if we're going to give Pippen this much credit, then McHale deserves it too.

His offense was historically efficient (Gilmore fans love this, don't they? ). Only player ever to have a 25+ ppg season shooting 60+%, but usually good for 21-22 ppg on well above 60 TS% (could have undoubtedly averaged more if asked), on top of that we're talking an all-defensive first teamer, 8-10 rebounds (probably more if he isn't playing with Bird/Parish, his orb% was better than KG's for example, but it's tough to boost your average with defensive boards when you have two other 10 rpg guys), a guy who always showed up in the playoffs/finals, played remarkably consistently from game to game, even got enough MVP votes to be a top 4 candidate at one point in his career (despite playing with Bird!), and put up 25/9 on 64 TS% during the championship run of the greatest team ever. The main criticism of him is that he was a blackhole. He actually was a good passer, just not willing, which I don't really have a problem with considering a) his role with the team (not asked to distribute, ask to provide efficient half-court scoring) and b) his ability to score at historical efficiency.

Bird is my favorite player, I don't have a reason to overrate McHale, in fact I should probably bring him down (like most people usually do to teammates of their favorite player), but I can't deny how seriously good he was. McHale would have gotten the recognition he deserved if Celtics won in '85 (if Kareem doesn't pull off an unbelievable performance over the final 5 games). McHale imo would have been the best player in that playoff run for the Celtics and won finals MVP (Bird really struggled after the first round due to injuries). But overall, McHale, based on watching him play, is a guy that could have done a lot more if he was asked, especially as a second banana on a team with less options (higher ppg, rpg, which I guess would get him more respected nowadays), so I hope people keep that in mind.

He's looking nice on Squared2020's 1987-88 RAPM sample. Limited, but interesting nonetheless.

Adding to this:

1987-88 Playoffs

ECFR vs. New York (4 games): 24.3 ppg on 68.8% TS (+14.1 opponent-adjusted TS%)
ECSF vs. Atlanta (7 games): 24.9 ppg on 70.3% TS (+16.7 opponent-adjusted TS%)
ECF vs. Detroit (6 games): 26.8 ppg on 62.9% TS (+10.5 opponent-adjusted TS%)

opponent-adjusted TS% = McHale's series TS% - opponent's regular season defensive TS% average

[Elpolo_14]

I would like to see reasoning, of how Steve Nash is GOAT offensive peak level, and Steph is left out of the top 4 in 15-16.
How is J. West in the top ten, over James Harden, and SGA and Luka this high.

I also obviously don't like Bird, but I am very confused as to how 87 Bird is lower than Wilt. And Rick Barry in 67, is not even his best season offensively, yet he is in the top 25, which 03 TMac should be above, let alone above 87 Bird. And if he's above, why not Dwade or Reggie???

Lastly, there should be no reason for 03 TMac to not appear on this list, when Karl freakin Malone is here. He is a 09 Kobe-ish/87 Bird level offensive peak, who had clearly ATG scoring, and sub-ATG PM. All-time level floor raising as well, with one of the worst offensive supporting casts in NBA history.

1. Nash on/off offensive is a swing of +17.1 offense rating ( +16.6 swing without Marion / +25.3 swing without Joe / +17.5 swing without Amare ) - he also didn't upgrade a bad team to just good or great , he uplifted them to be the 2nd Best rORTG ( +8.4 ) of all time behind the Mavs 04 ( +9.2 ). You can attributed some of his impact to his teammates like Amare Stoudemire / Joe Johnson / Marion but their impact corelate with how Nash able to maximize his playmaking and court awareness to bring up the best in each one of them on offense ( it can either be collapsing the defense to leave room for Amare and Shawn to play finish with less contact / His OFFball presence can't make the Defense slack off him to help against Joe Johnson isolation ). Nash mid volume Elite efficiency scoring make him a thread to not be leaving out. I would say Nash Onball playmaking is on the same tier as Magic ( who I got 2nd ) but his Offball movement are more polished + combine with his effectiveness to score everywhere on the floor bring value more than magic offball who's less versatile scorer . Nash while Facing -3.8 rDRTG defense in the playoffs in 2005 he lead a +16.3 rORTG adj. While on court ( Curry need a super team to lead this kind of offense +17.9 rORTG in 2017 against worse defensive -1.1rDRTG. which Kawhi miss the series after game 1 ).

That's fair, due to many other reasons, Nash has an argument as GOAT offensive player ever, he is GOAT lvl offensive after all...

2. The reason I put Curry at 4th is that I do value Onball more and the like of any player I mentioned above ( maybe for the exception of MJ who I still think is better onball ) definitely wipe curry on that aspect. Onball playmaking is more valuable+more definite to an offensive engine Skillsets/ability cause the best O player is the one organize and delivery everything making it less prone to someone else mistake. Curry lead a +8.1 offense in the regular season and have offensive on/off swing +14.9 rating ( +8.4 swing without Draymond / +14.2 swing without Klay ) you will see that Curry offensive uplifted get almost cut by half when his Onball initiator and decision maker in Draymond green isn't on the floor. Curry 16 in playoffs get injured - still part of his peak year so it cannot be left out only lead a +5.2rORTG adj. Against -0.7 rDRTG defense ( Draymond was leading a +6.3 rORTG in a bigger sample size)

Again, if you have Steph there, it's fair enough. He had elite offensive situation, but so did Jordan, who did have Pippen as the on-ball initiator and decision maker on the team, so I don't see why Jordan would be ahead of Steph.

Yes, I do agree on-ball is more valuable and impactful to offense, than off-ball, but as you said in your post, Jordan is the only one who doesn't clear on-ball, and Steph ginormous gap off-ball is enough, to take him over Jordan, isn't it?

3. Jerry west - I might have been to overblown by his Resilience against the best defensive team ever ( -9.4 rDRTG )while his best teammates in Baylor got injured in the final and west unlimited scoring ability still translate to impact the floor. But I can totally see harden Playmaking ability and Regular Season lead offense being better. I don't have much to argue about

Don't see why Harden's RS alone wouldn't overcome this. But one correction, 64 Celtics was best defensive team ever, not 65/66.

4. SGA have elite impact as offensive floor even with his best teammates missing out due to injury or not on the floor with him . +11.1 offense Swing ( +16.2 swing without j'dub / +14.2 swing without chet / +14.5 without I.hart ). His scoring Volume and efficiency with how he score is nearly unschemable especially the Drive ( he lead the league ) to get bucket or FT that make the defense get less touchy cause the foul he draw each time he drive couple it with his elite midrange jumper.

Yes, his scoring absolutely is lethal weapon, but what makes his playmaking strong enough to surpass someone like CP3??

4.1 Luka have ever traits of an Elite offense engine. Scoring ability ( versatility / efficiency ) he can score against elite defense And his playmaking off the PNR is nearly unstoppable due to Luka being able to trap the defensive player to come edge the screen on him because of his shooting as a versatile Scorer or his drive ability with his control of speed able to manipulate a single coverage defender so it obligated a help defender on him leaving the roll man wipe open. With the roll man open Luka ability to find The best way or best timing to pass the ball cannot be neutralize while the defense collapse on the driving/edge defense ( this will help his case as court vision ) and Luka delivery on the lob traits or the bounce pass are hard to predict by help defense ( the other who didn't double Luka ) and even if the roll man get rotate on Luka passing ability that make him elite at everywhere on the court make him create for the Prerimeter open cause the PNR offense. Luka on ball présence is always an advantageous skills and less prone to scheme than others player

Good job, you presented nice case, I can't really argue much here, but wouldn't this put him over Kobe too?

5. I do think Wilt playmaking ability relative to era in 67 is more impressive than what bird has in his disposal. Add to that a layer of Offensive Rebounding ability so I take wilt

What did Wilt have as a PM, that was good enough to take him over Bird? Bird wipes as a passer, decision maker, and facilitator. Peak Wilt was def a better scorer and all-time offensive rebounder, but I don't see why Bird resilient postseason (in his offensive peak 86/87 he was resilient playoff performer), his playmaking combination with still elite scoring would put him below Wilt.

6. Karl Malone is an elite offensive player in the regular season. Elite scorer with great and effective PNR action in the RS. I don't see why wouldn't he be included

He would be included, just lower on the list. TMac who isn't even on your list should be ahead, and I don't see how he isn't ahead, can you explain?

7. Rick Barry might be the more scalable and portable Scorer of his era ( in contention with west ). To catch shoot off ball - to run PNR then pull up jump shot or finish at the rim. His playmaking was decent enough to compliment his scoring. Are you choosing 75 Rick Barry instead because of the IQ and as ball distributeur ? I can totally see that year instead

This is all great and all, but not good to put him over Bird. Bird could also shoot off-ball, and has the advantages you've listed below except for scoring volume. He also has off-ball movement and better shooter. For portability and scalability that's fair.
But yeah you are right about 75 Barry, but I don't see why he isn't there along with 67. 67 is still great offensive year though, yeah.

And if Barry is ahead of Bird offensively, why not Wade too?

8. Reggie Miller except from OFFball movement and 3pt ball have nothing on bird offensive ability. Bird is a better volume scorer while still maintaining the efficiency - he a better transition initiator with his court awareness to find his man for an outlet pass - better decisions making in the half court off a double or off screen - MILES BETTER Screen setter - Better O-Reb ( even if he's didn't box out that much ) his timing and positioning were great - on ball bird also better by just a Facilitor and passer in general

Good job defending Bird, but completely contradicting your points for defending Barry and Wilt over Bird, so it's either this or Bird below them. Unless there is something missing that I don't know about, you can enlighten me there.

9. Lastly like I state in my post that I could have forgotten some player so TMac could be in the list too

TMac is having elite offensive year that season, he shouldn't be over Wade, but he should be over the two Malones and also Westbrook.

1. So we are settled on Nash. For me he definitely in top 3 without a doubt but for now I choose him as 1st peak Offense.

2. You made good point. Both MJ + Curry are in elite situation in the year I chosen as their Peak offense. Both have help to initialize the offense by capitalize on them with Pippen running the triangle offense which solitate on MJ offball Scoring to find the best position or timing to create opportunities/ Speration in benefit of MJ or The team on the backbone of MJ Scoring Goat traits. The same is with Draymond who use his quick decision making and Court awareness to usetalise Curry offball Playmaking that liberates another player due to curry Gravity.
The thing that make me choose MJ instead is that when needed MJ can be the sole offense engine with his Unmatched Scoring ability( MJ being one of the best ISOLATION and shot creator limit him less in this kind of situation ) and he still able to make play/manipulate the defense to be on him then he can deliver his creation to an open teammates. Which Stephen Curry have a hander time doing and if he the sole offensive initiator it brings down the full potential of Curry potential as Offball Playmaking also Curry as ball carrier have trouble to deliver in tough coverage ( Curry being a good but not great isolation/ shot creator for himself make the defense much easier to disturb Curry offense ). Also Lastly MJ have Elite playoff run in 91 and Curry got injured "I know it not his fault but if he doesn't have that sample of offense to show I cannot rank him higher"

3.Harden Having better RS due to Playmaking is great but Harden Scoring get too much hindered in a playoff Scheme, him not being aggressive enough leave too much room for his playmaking to Grown like in the Regular Season for me to have him better than West who able to perform on all time level and His scoring ability ( with some great Playmaking ability on the floor general side )can always translate against GOAT DEFENSE TEAM even without his best teammates. Also thanks for the clarification on the defense Celtics 64 was the best all time while 65 is the second best ( 10.4 > 9.4 )

4. Kobe Floor is Higher with his Carry Scoring load that is good enough to uplift trash offense to great one IMO while he still have traits to fit better in a ceilings setting team. Luka is a heavy HEAVY heliocentric with really poor offball sense ( he doesn't try to use his scoring versatility to maximize offball at all and his commitment offball is nonexistent even when he Play with good initiator on Kyrie. We see this weakness this year with elite creator like Bron and good creator like AR15 ). Kobe defensive attention is also much higher than Luka and he still able to produce on an elite level. Kobe being able to Generate shot anywhere on court is more Valuable than Luka always try to Hunt for mismatch

To be fair I'm too lazy for the other point so I will end it at 4. Have a great day

[Top10alltime]

1. Nash on/off offensive is a swing of +17.1 offense rating ( +16.6 swing without Marion / +25.3 swing without Joe / +17.5 swing without Amare ) - he also didn't upgrade a bad team to just good or great , he uplifted them to be the 2nd Best rORTG ( +8.4 ) of all time behind the Mavs 04 ( +9.2 ). You can attributed some of his impact to his teammates like Amare Stoudemire / Joe Johnson / Marion but their impact corelate with how Nash able to maximize his playmaking and court awareness to bring up the best in each one of them on offense ( it can either be collapsing the defense to leave room for Amare and Shawn to play finish with less contact / His OFFball presence can't make the Defense slack off him to help against Joe Johnson isolation ). Nash mid volume Elite efficiency scoring make him a thread to not be leaving out. I would say Nash Onball playmaking is on the same tier as Magic ( who I got 2nd ) but his Offball movement are more polished + combine with his effectiveness to score everywhere on the floor bring value more than magic offball who's less versatile scorer . Nash while Facing -3.8 rDRTG defense in the playoffs in 2005 he lead a +16.3 rORTG adj. While on court ( Curry need a super team to lead this kind of offense +17.9 rORTG in 2017 against worse defensive -1.1rDRTG. which Kawhi miss the series after game 1 ).

That's fair, due to many other reasons, Nash has an argument as GOAT offensive player ever, he is GOAT lvl offensive after all...

2. The reason I put Curry at 4th is that I do value Onball more and the like of any player I mentioned above ( maybe for the exception of MJ who I still think is better onball ) definitely wipe curry on that aspect. Onball playmaking is more valuable+more definite to an offensive engine Skillsets/ability cause the best O player is the one organize and delivery everything making it less prone to someone else mistake. Curry lead a +8.1 offense in the regular season and have offensive on/off swing +14.9 rating ( +8.4 swing without Draymond / +14.2 swing without Klay ) you will see that Curry offensive uplifted get almost cut by half when his Onball initiator and decision maker in Draymond green isn't on the floor. Curry 16 in playoffs get injured - still part of his peak year so it cannot be left out only lead a +5.2rORTG adj. Against -0.7 rDRTG defense ( Draymond was leading a +6.3 rORTG in a bigger sample size)

Again, if you have Steph there, it's fair enough. He had elite offensive situation, but so did Jordan, who did have Pippen as the on-ball initiator and decision maker on the team, so I don't see why Jordan would be ahead of Steph.

Yes, I do agree on-ball is more valuable and impactful to offense, than off-ball, but as you said in your post, Jordan is the only one who doesn't clear on-ball, and Steph ginormous gap off-ball is enough, to take him over Jordan, isn't it?

3. Jerry west - I might have been to overblown by his Resilience against the best defensive team ever ( -9.4 rDRTG )while his best teammates in Baylor got injured in the final and west unlimited scoring ability still translate to impact the floor. But I can totally see harden Playmaking ability and Regular Season lead offense being better. I don't have much to argue about

Don't see why Harden's RS alone wouldn't overcome this. But one correction, 64 Celtics was best defensive team ever, not 65/66.

4. SGA have elite impact as offensive floor even with his best teammates missing out due to injury or not on the floor with him . +11.1 offense Swing ( +16.2 swing without j'dub / +14.2 swing without chet / +14.5 without I.hart ). His scoring Volume and efficiency with how he score is nearly unschemable especially the Drive ( he lead the league ) to get bucket or FT that make the defense get less touchy cause the foul he draw each time he drive couple it with his elite midrange jumper.

Yes, his scoring absolutely is lethal weapon, but what makes his playmaking strong enough to surpass someone like CP3??

4.1 Luka have ever traits of an Elite offense engine. Scoring ability ( versatility / efficiency ) he can score against elite defense And his playmaking off the PNR is nearly unstoppable due to Luka being able to trap the defensive player to come edge the screen on him because of his shooting as a versatile Scorer or his drive ability with his control of speed able to manipulate a single coverage defender so it obligated a help defender on him leaving the roll man wipe open. With the roll man open Luka ability to find The best way or best timing to pass the ball cannot be neutralize while the defense collapse on the driving/edge defense ( this will help his case as court vision ) and Luka delivery on the lob traits or the bounce pass are hard to predict by help defense ( the other who didn't double Luka ) and even if the roll man get rotate on Luka passing ability that make him elite at everywhere on the court make him create for the Prerimeter open cause the PNR offense. Luka on ball présence is always an advantageous skills and less prone to scheme than others player

Good job, you presented nice case, I can't really argue much here, but wouldn't this put him over Kobe too?

5. I do think Wilt playmaking ability relative to era in 67 is more impressive than what bird has in his disposal. Add to that a layer of Offensive Rebounding ability so I take wilt

What did Wilt have as a PM, that was good enough to take him over Bird? Bird wipes as a passer, decision maker, and facilitator. Peak Wilt was def a better scorer and all-time offensive rebounder, but I don't see why Bird resilient postseason (in his offensive peak 86/87 he was resilient playoff performer), his playmaking combination with still elite scoring would put him below Wilt.

6. Karl Malone is an elite offensive player in the regular season. Elite scorer with great and effective PNR action in the RS. I don't see why wouldn't he be included

He would be included, just lower on the list. TMac who isn't even on your list should be ahead, and I don't see how he isn't ahead, can you explain?

7. Rick Barry might be the more scalable and portable Scorer of his era ( in contention with west ). To catch shoot off ball - to run PNR then pull up jump shot or finish at the rim. His playmaking was decent enough to compliment his scoring. Are you choosing 75 Rick Barry instead because of the IQ and as ball distributeur ? I can totally see that year instead

This is all great and all, but not good to put him over Bird. Bird could also shoot off-ball, and has the advantages you've listed below except for scoring volume. He also has off-ball movement and better shooter. For portability and scalability that's fair.
But yeah you are right about 75 Barry, but I don't see why he isn't there along with 67. 67 is still great offensive year though, yeah.

And if Barry is ahead of Bird offensively, why not Wade too?

8. Reggie Miller except from OFFball movement and 3pt ball have nothing on bird offensive ability. Bird is a better volume scorer while still maintaining the efficiency - he a better transition initiator with his court awareness to find his man for an outlet pass - better decisions making in the half court off a double or off screen - MILES BETTER Screen setter - Better O-Reb ( even if he's didn't box out that much ) his timing and positioning were great - on ball bird also better by just a Facilitor and passer in general

Good job defending Bird, but completely contradicting your points for defending Barry and Wilt over Bird, so it's either this or Bird below them. Unless there is something missing that I don't know about, you can enlighten me there.

9. Lastly like I state in my post that I could have forgotten some player so TMac could be in the list too

TMac is having elite offensive year that season, he shouldn't be over Wade, but he should be over the two Malones and also Westbrook.

1. So we are settled on Nash. For me he definitely in top 3 without a doubt but for now I choose him as 1st peak Offense.

Yea, we are fine on Nash offense, he has GOAT lvl offensive peak.

2. You made good point. Both MJ + Curry are in elite situation in the year I chosen as their Peak offense. Both have help to initialize the offense by capitalize on them with Pippen running the triangle offense which solitate on MJ offball Scoring to find the best position or timing to create opportunities/ Speration in benefit of MJ or The team on the backbone of MJ Scoring Goat traits. The same is with Draymond who use his quick decision making and Court awareness to usetalise Curry offball Playmaking that liberates another player due to curry Gravity.
The thing that make me choose MJ instead is that when needed MJ can be the sole offense engine with his Unmatched Scoring ability( MJ being one of the best ISOLATION and shot creator limit him less in this kind of situation ) and he still able to make play/manipulate the defense to be on him then he can deliver his creation to an open teammates. Which Stephen Curry have a hander time doing and if he the sole offensive initiator it brings down the full potential of Curry potential as Offball Playmaking also Curry as ball carrier have trouble to deliver in tough coverage ( Curry being a good but not great isolation/ shot creator for himself make the defense much easier to disturb Curry offense ). Also Lastly MJ have Elite playoff run in 91 and Curry got injured "I know it not his fault but if he doesn't have that sample of offense to show I cannot rank him higher"

Good that you got my point about both having elite offensive situation that year. And what you are saying about sole offensive engine, is about scoring of Jordan, compared to Steph playmaking. I see we've seen Steph in 2020-21 in type of situation on-ball as Jordan, he still did great.
Also in 2014-15, he relied on his on-ball lot more. What happened these season is kind of like what Jordan did, Curry struggled more. Maybe I wil get to some tracking and come back on these points.

Also, if we are going the PO route, Steph has vastly better RS than 1991 Jordan, as scorer and playmaker.

3.Harden Having better RS due to Playmaking is great but Harden Scoring get too much hindered in a playoff Scheme, him not being aggressive enough leave too much room for his playmaking to Grown like in the Regular Season for me to have him better than West who able to perform on all time level and His scoring ability ( with some great Playmaking ability on the floor general side )can always translate against GOAT DEFENSE TEAM even without his best teammates. Also thanks for the clarification on the defense Celtics 64 was the best all time while 65 is the second best ( 10.4 > 9.4 )

What makes Jerry West this aggressive as your saying. I see West has some advantages, so it's fair to put him ahead, I just have some question about his scoring and playmaking ability.

4. Kobe Floor is Higher with his Carry Scoring load that is good enough to uplift trash offense to great one IMO while he still have traits to fit better in a ceilings setting team. Luka is a heavy HEAVY heliocentric with really poor offball sense ( he doesn't try to use his scoring versatility to maximize offball at all and his commitment offball is nonexistent even when he Play with good initiator on Kyrie. We see this weakness this year with elite creator like Bron and good creator like AR15 ). Kobe defensive attention is also much higher than Luka and he still able to produce on an elite level. Kobe being able to Generate shot anywhere on court is more Valuable than Luka always try to Hunt for mismatch

Alright, I can't argue much for Luka here either.

To be fair I'm too lazy for the other point so I will end it at 4. Have a great day

Thanks! And if you have time can u answer the other questions above?

[tsherkin]

1. Nash on/off offensive is a swing of +17.1 offense rating ( +16.6 swing without Marion / +25.3 swing without Joe / +17.5 swing without Amare ) - he also didn't upgrade a bad team to just good or great , he uplifted them to be the 2nd Best rORTG ( +8.4 ) of all time behind the Mavs 04 ( +9.2 ). You can attributed some of his impact to his teammates like Amare Stoudemire / Joe Johnson / Marion but their impact corelate with how Nash able to maximize his playmaking and court awareness to bring up the best in each one of them on offense ( it can either be collapsing the defense to leave room for Amare and Shawn to play finish with less contact / His OFFball presence can't make the Defense slack off him to help against Joe Johnson isolation ). Nash mid volume Elite efficiency scoring make him a thread to not be leaving out. I would say Nash Onball playmaking is on the same tier as Magic ( who I got 2nd ) but his Offball movement are more polished + combine with his effectiveness to score everywhere on the floor bring value more than magic offball who's less versatile scorer . Nash while Facing -3.8 rDRTG defense in the playoffs in 2005 he lead a +16.3 rORTG adj. While on court ( Curry need a super team to lead this kind of offense +17.9 rORTG in 2017 against worse defensive -1.1rDRTG. which Kawhi miss the series after game 1 ).

That's fair, due to many other reasons, Nash has an argument as GOAT offensive player ever, he is GOAT lvl offensive after all...

2. The reason I put Curry at 4th is that I do value Onball more and the like of any player I mentioned above ( maybe for the exception of MJ who I still think is better onball ) definitely wipe curry on that aspect. Onball playmaking is more valuable+more definite to an offensive engine Skillsets/ability cause the best O player is the one organize and delivery everything making it less prone to someone else mistake. Curry lead a +8.1 offense in the regular season and have offensive on/off swing +14.9 rating ( +8.4 swing without Draymond / +14.2 swing without Klay ) you will see that Curry offensive uplifted get almost cut by half when his Onball initiator and decision maker in Draymond green isn't on the floor. Curry 16 in playoffs get injured - still part of his peak year so it cannot be left out only lead a +5.2rORTG adj. Against -0.7 rDRTG defense ( Draymond was leading a +6.3 rORTG in a bigger sample size)

Again, if you have Steph there, it's fair enough. He had elite offensive situation, but so did Jordan, who did have Pippen as the on-ball initiator and decision maker on the team, so I don't see why Jordan would be ahead of Steph.

Yes, I do agree on-ball is more valuable and impactful to offense, than off-ball, but as you said in your post, Jordan is the only one who doesn't clear on-ball, and Steph ginormous gap off-ball is enough, to take him over Jordan, isn't it?

3. Jerry west - I might have been to overblown by his Resilience against the best defensive team ever ( -9.4 rDRTG )while his best teammates in Baylor got injured in the final and west unlimited scoring ability still translate to impact the floor. But I can totally see harden Playmaking ability and Regular Season lead offense being better. I don't have much to argue about

Don't see why Harden's RS alone wouldn't overcome this. But one correction, 64 Celtics was best defensive team ever, not 65/66.

4. SGA have elite impact as offensive floor even with his best teammates missing out due to injury or not on the floor with him . +11.1 offense Swing ( +16.2 swing without j'dub / +14.2 swing without chet / +14.5 without I.hart ). His scoring Volume and efficiency with how he score is nearly unschemable especially the Drive ( he lead the league ) to get bucket or FT that make the defense get less touchy cause the foul he draw each time he drive couple it with his elite midrange jumper.

Yes, his scoring absolutely is lethal weapon, but what makes his playmaking strong enough to surpass someone like CP3??

4.1 Luka have ever traits of an Elite offense engine. Scoring ability ( versatility / efficiency ) he can score against elite defense And his playmaking off the PNR is nearly unstoppable due to Luka being able to trap the defensive player to come edge the screen on him because of his shooting as a versatile Scorer or his drive ability with his control of speed able to manipulate a single coverage defender so it obligated a help defender on him leaving the roll man wipe open. With the roll man open Luka ability to find The best way or best timing to pass the ball cannot be neutralize while the defense collapse on the driving/edge defense ( this will help his case as court vision ) and Luka delivery on the lob traits or the bounce pass are hard to predict by help defense ( the other who didn't double Luka ) and even if the roll man get rotate on Luka passing ability that make him elite at everywhere on the court make him create for the Prerimeter open cause the PNR offense. Luka on ball présence is always an advantageous skills and less prone to scheme than others player

Good job, you presented nice case, I can't really argue much here, but wouldn't this put him over Kobe too?

5. I do think Wilt playmaking ability relative to era in 67 is more impressive than what bird has in his disposal. Add to that a layer of Offensive Rebounding ability so I take wilt

What did Wilt have as a PM, that was good enough to take him over Bird? Bird wipes as a passer, decision maker, and facilitator. Peak Wilt was def a better scorer and all-time offensive rebounder, but I don't see why Bird resilient postseason (in his offensive peak 86/87 he was resilient playoff performer), his playmaking combination with still elite scoring would put him below Wilt.

6. Karl Malone is an elite offensive player in the regular season. Elite scorer with great and effective PNR action in the RS. I don't see why wouldn't he be included

He would be included, just lower on the list. TMac who isn't even on your list should be ahead, and I don't see how he isn't ahead, can you explain?

7. Rick Barry might be the more scalable and portable Scorer of his era ( in contention with west ). To catch shoot off ball - to run PNR then pull up jump shot or finish at the rim. His playmaking was decent enough to compliment his scoring. Are you choosing 75 Rick Barry instead because of the IQ and as ball distributeur ? I can totally see that year instead

This is all great and all, but not good to put him over Bird. Bird could also shoot off-ball, and has the advantages you've listed below except for scoring volume. He also has off-ball movement and better shooter. For portability and scalability that's fair.
But yeah you are right about 75 Barry, but I don't see why he isn't there along with 67. 67 is still great offensive year though, yeah.

And if Barry is ahead of Bird offensively, why not Wade too?

8. Reggie Miller except from OFFball movement and 3pt ball have nothing on bird offensive ability. Bird is a better volume scorer while still maintaining the efficiency - he a better transition initiator with his court awareness to find his man for an outlet pass - better decisions making in the half court off a double or off screen - MILES BETTER Screen setter - Better O-Reb ( even if he's didn't box out that much ) his timing and positioning were great - on ball bird also better by just a Facilitor and passer in general

Good job defending Bird, but completely contradicting your points for defending Barry and Wilt over Bird, so it's either this or Bird below them. Unless there is something missing that I don't know about, you can enlighten me there.

9. Lastly like I state in my post that I could have forgotten some player so TMac could be in the list too

TMac is having elite offensive year that season, he shouldn't be over Wade, but he should be over the two Malones and also Westbrook.

1. So we are settled on Nash. For me he definitely in top 3 without a doubt but for now I choose him as 1st peak Offense.

2. You made good point. Both MJ + Curry are in elite situation in the year I chosen as their Peak offense. Both have help to initialize the offense by capitalize on them with Pippen running the triangle offense which solitate on MJ offball Scoring to find the best position or timing to create opportunities/ Speration in benefit of MJ or The team on the backbone of MJ Scoring Goat traits. The same is with Draymond who use his quick decision making and Court awareness to usetalise Curry offball Playmaking that liberates another player due to curry Gravity.
The thing that make me choose MJ instead is that when needed MJ can be the sole offense engine with his Unmatched Scoring ability( MJ being one of the best ISOLATION and shot creator limit him less in this kind of situation ) and he still able to make play/manipulate the defense to be on him then he can deliver his creation to an open teammates. Which Stephen Curry have a hander time doing and if he the sole offensive initiator it brings down the full potential of Curry potential as Offball Playmaking also Curry as ball carrier have trouble to deliver in tough coverage ( Curry being a good but not great isolation/ shot creator for himself make the defense much easier to disturb Curry offense ). Also Lastly MJ have Elite playoff run in 91 and Curry got injured "I know it not his fault but if he doesn't have that sample of offense to show I cannot rank him higher"

3.Harden Having better RS due to Playmaking is great but Harden Scoring get too much hindered in a playoff Scheme, him not being aggressive enough leave too much room for his playmaking to Grown like in the Regular Season for me to have him better than West who able to perform on all time level and His scoring ability ( with some great Playmaking ability on the floor general side )can always translate against GOAT DEFENSE TEAM even without his best teammates. Also thanks for the clarification on the defense Celtics 64 was the best all time while 65 is the second best ( 10.4 > 9.4 )

4. Kobe Floor is Higher with his Carry Scoring load that is good enough to uplift trash offense to great one IMO while he still have traits to fit better in a ceilings setting team. Luka is a heavy HEAVY heliocentric with really poor offball sense ( he doesn't try to use his scoring versatility to maximize offball at all and his commitment offball is nonexistent even when he Play with good initiator on Kyrie. We see this weakness this year with elite creator like Bron and good creator like AR15 ). Kobe defensive attention is also much higher than Luka and he still able to produce on an elite level. Kobe being able to Generate shot anywhere on court is more Valuable than Luka always try to Hunt for mismatch

To be fair I'm too lazy for the other point so I will end it at 4. Have a great day

Just wanted to take a second to appreciate this exchange. It's pleasant, it's got nice back and forth, some cool information and what have you...

Good stuff! That was a nice read, guys, thanks!

[Top10alltime]

That's fair, due to many other reasons, Nash has an argument as GOAT offensive player ever, he is GOAT lvl offensive after all...



Again, if you have Steph there, it's fair enough. He had elite offensive situation, but so did Jordan, who did have Pippen as the on-ball initiator and decision maker on the team, so I don't see why Jordan would be ahead of Steph.

Yes, I do agree on-ball is more valuable and impactful to offense, than off-ball, but as you said in your post, Jordan is the only one who doesn't clear on-ball, and Steph ginormous gap off-ball is enough, to take him over Jordan, isn't it?



Don't see why Harden's RS alone wouldn't overcome this. But one correction, 64 Celtics was best defensive team ever, not 65/66.



Yes, his scoring absolutely is lethal weapon, but what makes his playmaking strong enough to surpass someone like CP3??



Good job, you presented nice case, I can't really argue much here, but wouldn't this put him over Kobe too?



What did Wilt have as a PM, that was good enough to take him over Bird? Bird wipes as a passer, decision maker, and facilitator. Peak Wilt was def a better scorer and all-time offensive rebounder, but I don't see why Bird resilient postseason (in his offensive peak 86/87 he was resilient playoff performer), his playmaking combination with still elite scoring would put him below Wilt.



He would be included, just lower on the list. TMac who isn't even on your list should be ahead, and I don't see how he isn't ahead, can you explain?



This is all great and all, but not good to put him over Bird. Bird could also shoot off-ball, and has the advantages you've listed below except for scoring volume. He also has off-ball movement and better shooter. For portability and scalability that's fair.
But yeah you are right about 75 Barry, but I don't see why he isn't there along with 67. 67 is still great offensive year though, yeah.

And if Barry is ahead of Bird offensively, why not Wade too?



Good job defending Bird, but completely contradicting your points for defending Barry and Wilt over Bird, so it's either this or Bird below them. Unless there is something missing that I don't know about, you can enlighten me there.



TMac is having elite offensive year that season, he shouldn't be over Wade, but he should be over the two Malones and also Westbrook.

1. So we are settled on Nash. For me he definitely in top 3 without a doubt but for now I choose him as 1st peak Offense.

2. You made good point. Both MJ + Curry are in elite situation in the year I chosen as their Peak offense. Both have help to initialize the offense by capitalize on them with Pippen running the triangle offense which solitate on MJ offball Scoring to find the best position or timing to create opportunities/ Speration in benefit of MJ or The team on the backbone of MJ Scoring Goat traits. The same is with Draymond who use his quick decision making and Court awareness to usetalise Curry offball Playmaking that liberates another player due to curry Gravity.
The thing that make me choose MJ instead is that when needed MJ can be the sole offense engine with his Unmatched Scoring ability( MJ being one of the best ISOLATION and shot creator limit him less in this kind of situation ) and he still able to make play/manipulate the defense to be on him then he can deliver his creation to an open teammates. Which Stephen Curry have a hander time doing and if he the sole offensive initiator it brings down the full potential of Curry potential as Offball Playmaking also Curry as ball carrier have trouble to deliver in tough coverage ( Curry being a good but not great isolation/ shot creator for himself make the defense much easier to disturb Curry offense ). Also Lastly MJ have Elite playoff run in 91 and Curry got injured "I know it not his fault but if he doesn't have that sample of offense to show I cannot rank him higher"

3.Harden Having better RS due to Playmaking is great but Harden Scoring get too much hindered in a playoff Scheme, him not being aggressive enough leave too much room for his playmaking to Grown like in the Regular Season for me to have him better than West who able to perform on all time level and His scoring ability ( with some great Playmaking ability on the floor general side )can always translate against GOAT DEFENSE TEAM even without his best teammates. Also thanks for the clarification on the defense Celtics 64 was the best all time while 65 is the second best ( 10.4 > 9.4 )

4. Kobe Floor is Higher with his Carry Scoring load that is good enough to uplift trash offense to great one IMO while he still have traits to fit better in a ceilings setting team. Luka is a heavy HEAVY heliocentric with really poor offball sense ( he doesn't try to use his scoring versatility to maximize offball at all and his commitment offball is nonexistent even when he Play with good initiator on Kyrie. We see this weakness this year with elite creator like Bron and good creator like AR15 ). Kobe defensive attention is also much higher than Luka and he still able to produce on an elite level. Kobe being able to Generate shot anywhere on court is more Valuable than Luka always try to Hunt for mismatch

To be fair I'm too lazy for the other point so I will end it at 4. Have a great day

Just wanted to take a second to appreciate this exchange. It's pleasant, it's got nice back and forth, some cool information and what have you...

Good stuff! That was a nice read, guys, thanks!

Thank you for that, you deserve this: