ATG Offensive Engines LeBron, Magic, Jordan, Curry, Nash, and Jokic and Playoff Series

[Djoker]

Eh, many players have had injuries to their supporting cast.

LeBron had injuries to his cast in 2013, 2014 and 2015 [2015 ECF and Finals notably]. Yet in all of those post-seasons he reached +10 rORTG.

Come on. It's not the same. Jokic has never played with another All-NBA player. And I realize Murray was a good playoff performer in 2020 and 2023 but the guy never even made an all-star game.

Oh so popularity amongst NBA fans is more important than the actual level of play?

I just care about level of play my friend

Fair enough. I think Murray in 2020 and 2023 is comparable to Kyrie in 2016 and 2017. But outside of the second option, I find the Cavs roster was more talented offensively. And Denver probably more talented defensively.

[Colbinii]

For 2020 and 2023 we have 7 series where Murray and Jokic played.

Nikola Jokic ON, Jamal Murray ON
1268 Minutes
+5.90 Net-Rtg
120.40 Ortg

Jamal Murray ON, Nikola Jokic OFF
283 Minutes
+1.18 Net-Rtg
111.30 Ortg

Nikola Jokic ON, Jamal Murray OFF
215 Minutes
-12.26 Net-Rtg
107.78 Ortg

[CodeBreaker]

Very interesting! With all obvious "it's a team game" caveats, impressive feats by the guys with big numbers here.

Figure it makes sense to consider this in terms of ratios too so for example:

LeBron played in 54 series, and his team had >8 rORtg 22 times. 40.7%
Jordan played in 37 series, and his team had >8 rOrtg 18 times. 48.6%
Magic played in 40 series, and his team had >8 rOrtg 16 times. 40.0%
Nash played in 23 series, and his team had >8 rOrtg 11 times. 47.8%
Curry played in 28 series, and his team had >8 rOrtg 11 times. 39.3%
Jokic played in 14 series, and his team had >8 rOrtg 3 times. 21.4%

Obviously the last of these looks very different than the others.

I do think it would be interesting to see how other stack up with Jokic only through Jokic's current age. Obviously with someone like Magic his stats are largely going to look the same, but I'd expect some of the others come down to earth at least a bit.

Only Jokic here has not played with another all-time great

Murray 2023 Post-Season: 4.1 OBPM, 28% USG, 29.8 Points/100

Wade 2012 Post-Season: 3.9 OBPM, 30% USG, 31.6 Points/100
Wade 2013 Post-Season: 2.6 OBPM, 25% USG, 24.5 Points/100

Murray is not even top 50 all-time.

Again, only Jokic has not played with another all-time great.

[Colbinii]

Only Jokic here has not played with another all-time great

Murray 2023 Post-Season: 4.1 OBPM, 28% USG, 29.8 Points/100

Wade 2012 Post-Season: 3.9 OBPM, 30% USG, 31.6 Points/100
Wade 2013 Post-Season: 2.6 OBPM, 25% USG, 24.5 Points/100

Murray is not even top 50 all-time.

Again, only Jokic has not played with another all-time great.

Okay. But I am comparing these players as offensive pieces in the respective year, not what they did in 2006 when looking at 2012 and 2013

[EmpireFalls]

How can anyone earnestly call Jokić the best offensive player ever with a straight face?

[homecourtloss]

Here we see a visualization of all the playoff series Jokic, LeBron, Curry, Jordan, Nash, and Magic have played. From left to right it is Nikola Jokić in blue LeBron in brown, curry in yellow, Jordan in red, Nash, in green, and magic in purple.



And here we see the +8, +12, +15, +18, and +20 series.

[Djoker]

Dude that's one of the most beautiful graphs I've ever seen! Not even exaggerating when I say that.

LOL at Magic's Lakers spanking someone that bad that one time!

[Colbinii]

Here we see a visualization of all the playoff series Jokic, LeBron, Curry, Jordan, Nash, and Magic have played. From left to right it is Nikola Jokić in blue LeBron in brown, curry in yellow, Jordan in red, Nash, in green, and magic in purple.



And here we see the +8, +12, +15, +18, and +20 series.

What year is Magic? I thought it was his 1987 series against Denver, but that was 125 Ortg vs 110 Drtg.

[AEnigma]

1985 Suns and 1988 Mavericks both clear that +15 barrier, but not sure about +20.

[Colbinii]

1985 Suns and 1988 Mavericks both clear that +15 barrier, but not sure about +20.

Same for Denver 1st round in 87.

Are bballref estimates for series simply estimates?

[homecourtloss]

Dude that's one of the most beautiful graphs I've ever seen! Not even exaggerating when I say that.

LOL at Magic's Lakers spanking someone that bad that one time!

Thanks bro. As a fellow number cruncher, you know the state of flow you get into when compiling these things. I made a mistake with Magic — I used the raw points instead of the rORtg so that number vs. the Nuggs goes down to a +14.9 rORtg

What year is Magic? I thought it was his 1987 series against Denver, but that was 125 Ortg vs 110 Drtg.

You are right—I made a mistake by inputing the Lakers’ ppg rather than their ORtg. Here are the updated charts.

1985 Suns and 1988 Mavericks both clear that +15 barrier, but not sure about +20.

Here is a list of all of Magic’s series:

Code: Select all

Playoffs   Series ORtg   Opp DRtg    rORtg
1980 Suns   110.9          102.2       8.7
1980 sonics 105.4          101.2       4.2
1980 Sixers 106.9           101       5.9
1981 rockets 102          106.7      -4.7
1982 Suns     113.4           102.4   11
1982 Spurs.   117           107.6   9.4
1982 Sixers  108.5           103.9   4.6
1983 Blazers   111.8   103.9   7.9
1983 Spurs   109           106.6   2.4
1983 Sixers    99.7           100.9   -1.2
1984 kings   111.5              108   3.5
1984 Mavericks   121.9   109.6   12.3
1984 suns   114.7              108   6.7
1984 Celtics   112            104.4   7.6
1985  suns   124.6           106.8   17.8
1985 Blazers   117.9   107.2   10.7
1985 Nuggets    117.4   108.4   9
1985 Celtics   112.3   106.3   6
1986 Spurs   122.7   108.2   14.5
1986 Mavs   119.7              111   8.7
1986 Rockets   107.4   107.6   -0.2
1987 Nuggs   125.1   110.2   14.9
1987. Warriors   121.7   111.2   10.5
1987. Sonics   117.2   110.3   6.9
1987 Celtics    118.4   106.8   11.6
1988 Spurs   114.5   112.8   1.7
1988 Jazz   111.1           103.1   8
1988 Mavs   124.6           107.7   16.9
1988 Pistons   108.9   105.3   3.6
1989 Blazers   122.4   108          14.4
1989 Sonics   117           108.6   8.4
1989 Suns    113.6   105.7   7.9
1989 Pistons   113.1   104.7   8.4
1990 Rockets   115           103.4   11.6
1990 Suns   111.9           106.2   5.7
1991 Rockets   110.5   103.9   6.6
1991 Warriors   120.7   110.3   10.4
1991 Blazers   111.9   104.3   7.6
1991 Bulls   104.5           105.2   -0.7


[Djoker]

...

The Magic data I have is lightly different from yours for a few WC series from 1980-1983. No B-Ref ORtg is given for those so you have to calculate from playoff totals. Regardless it's very close and no such problems from 1984 onwards.

Here are the averages for series rORtg for each player (minus Nash).

Magic: +7.4
Jordan: +6.9
Lebron: +6.3
Curry: +5.9
Jokic: +4.3

[Colbinii]

...

The Magic data I have is lightly different from yours for a few WC series from 1980-1983. No B-Ref ORtg is given for those so you have to calculate from playoff totals. Regardless it's very close and no such problems from 1984 onwards.

Here are the averages for series rORtg for each player (minus Nash).

Magic: +7.4
Jordan: +6.9
Lebron: +6.3
Curry: +5.9
Jokic: +4.3

Prime LeBron (2008-2020) is +7.6

It jumps up to +8.0 with 2009-2020

LeBron is always going to be lower on career averages since he started so young and played so old. The meat of who he was as a player comes out on top though.

I'd also do the same for Magic, Jordan and Curry.

[homecourtloss]

The Magic data I have is lightly different from yours for a few WC series from 1980-1983. No B-Ref ORtg is given for those so you have to calculate from playoff totals. Regardless it's very close and no such problems from 1984 onwards.

Here are the averages for series rORtg for each player (minus Nash).

Magic: +7.4
Jordan: +6.9
Lebron: +6.3
Curry: +5.9
Jokic: +4.3

Prime LeBron (2008-2020) is +7.6

It jumps up to +8.0 with 2009-2020

LeBron is always going to be lower on career averages since he started so young and played so old. The meat of who he was as a player comes out on top though.

I'd also do the same for Magic, Jordan and Curry.

Quite honestly, the fact that Lebron is at +6.3 for his career despite having played 14 more series than Magic, 17 more than Jordan, etc., is pretty crazy especially when those extra series are when players aren't + players at the end of their careers or when he was very young.

Jordan: +6.9
Jordan 1988 to 1998: +7.1 (34 series)
Jordan 1991 to 1998: +8.5 (26 series)
Jordan 1988 to 1998 with 5 lowest series REMOVED: +7.7 (29 series)
Jordan's 20 best series: +10.8
Jordan's 10 best series: +12.4

Lebron: +6.3
2008 to 2024: +7.1 (48 series)
2008 to 2020: +8.2 (43 series)
2009 to 2018: +9.1 (37 series)
2008 to 2020 with 4 lowest series REMOVED: +9.8 (39 series); if I removed 5 like I did with Jordan, it would be over +10.
Lebron's 20 best series: +13.1
Lebron's 10 best series: +15.8

[homecourtloss]

Here’s all the series between these six and how they did vs. defenses. Jokic is in blue, LeBron is in orange, curry is in yellow, Jordan is in red, Steve Nash is in green, and Magic Johnson is in purple.

[EmpireFalls]

Off the top of my head it would be interesting to see some of the elite assist leaders and elite scoring leaders and how they lead to outcomes.

I.e. Stockton and Kidd iirc do not have elite team offensive outcomes, but Magic and CP3 often do, McGrady, Iverson, Russ, and Harden don't, but Jordan, KD often do, etc.

[Colbinii]

Dirk (Career)
+6.2 Average

Dirk never faced a team with a negative SRS. The lowest was 0.0 in 2007 against the We Believe Warriors.

Prime Reggie Miller (1991-2002)
+6.2

Miller faced 1 team with a negative SRS, the 2000 Bucks.

[Colbinii]

Giannis Career (Minus 2015):

+0.8 Average

[zimpy27]

Awesome.

I think you should cut off the first sixth of the players career playoff series and the last sixth of the players career playoff series.
That would give you 2/3 of their career series data still which is roughly median+/-SD

[zimpy27]

These graphs have me questioning if Jokic is better than Nash