Better prime: Dirk vs Durant vs Kobe

[IlikeSHAIguys]

I think Kobe. 2011 goes hard but that's just one year right

[Verticality]

I expect it is controversial but I will say Kevin Durant. 2013-2014 NBA Most Valuable Player award and 2 NBA Finals Most Valuable player awards on perhaps the greatest team. Kobe was fantastic but Durant played much better in his finals. Kobe a more decorated defender but KD was a better one in my opinion.

[An Unbiased Fan]

Kobe
Dirk
KD

[Calvin Klein]

Please don't ever insult Kobe by mentioning Dirk in the same breath with him again.

The younger generation has overrated Dirk to an unbelievable degree.

He was a borderline top 10 player most of his career, had two historical playoff meltdowns in 2006 and 2007 and was only elite at one thing: scoring and there were routinely multiple players in the league better than him at that.

I'm gonna rank him even higher now just because of this reply.

1. DIRK






2. Kobe
3. Durant

[One_and_Done]

I think...

Dirk
KD
Kobe

If we're speaking about actual ability/impact.

Is this based on the same reasoning as when you said rookie Haliburton was better than peak Kobe?

I know if you swapped Halliburton for peak Kobe this year, the Pacers would have been worse.

[TheGOATRises007]

I think...

Dirk
KD
Kobe

If we're speaking about actual ability/impact.

Is this based on the same reasoning as when you said rookie Haliburton was better than peak Kobe?

I know if you swapped Halliburton for peak Kobe this year, the Pacers would have been worse.

Always posting absolute statements as per usual.

[TheGOATRises007]

I expect it is controversial but I will say Kevin Durant. 2013-2014 NBA Most Valuable Player award and 2 NBA Finals Most Valuable player awards on perhaps the greatest team. Kobe was fantastic but Durant played much better in his finals. Kobe a more decorated defender but KD was a better one in my opinion.

KD wasn't a better defender than Kobe.

[rrravenred]

Is this based on the same reasoning as when you said rookie Haliburton was better than peak Kobe?

I know if you swapped Halliburton for peak Kobe this year, the Pacers would have been worse.

Always posting absolute statements as per usual.

Pretty defensible view, IMO, which is no knock on Kobe. He's not as good a creator as Hali, who helms an offensive ensemble team.

Running them as a successful offensive team with Kobe as a more traditional helio is definitely possible, but it would be a radically different style of play.

[One_and_Done]

I expect it is controversial but I will say Kevin Durant. 2013-2014 NBA Most Valuable Player award and 2 NBA Finals Most Valuable player awards on perhaps the greatest team. Kobe was fantastic but Durant played much better in his finals. Kobe a more decorated defender but KD was a better one in my opinion.

KD wasn't a better defender than Kobe.

Yeh he was.

[TheGOATRises007]

I expect it is controversial but I will say Kevin Durant. 2013-2014 NBA Most Valuable Player award and 2 NBA Finals Most Valuable player awards on perhaps the greatest team. Kobe was fantastic but Durant played much better in his finals. Kobe a more decorated defender but KD was a better one in my opinion.

KD wasn't a better defender than Kobe.

Yeh he was.

There is no data whatsoever that supports that

[One_and_Done]

KD wasn't a better defender than Kobe.

Yeh he was.

There is no data whatsoever that supports that

I wouldn't be so quick to cite data in an argument that is trying to advocate Kobe. He's the opposite of an analytics darling (not that individual defensive stats are that good).

KD was bigger, stronger, longer, more athletic, and more versatile on D than Kobe. He also played in a tougher era for wing defenders. Kobe has a fake rep from clearly erroneous defensive team awards and not much else going for him.

[emn_010]

kobe>durant>dirk

[TheGOATRises007]

Yeh he was.

There is no data whatsoever that supports that

I wouldn't be so quick to cite data in an argument that is trying to advocate Kobe. He's the opposite of an analytics darling (not that individual defensive stats are that good).

KD was bigger, stronger, longer, more athletic, and more versatile on D than Kobe. He also played in a tougher era for wing defenders. Kobe has a fake rep from clearly erroneous defensive team awards and not much else going for him.

KD is not more athletic than Kobe. Citing strength as 1 of KD's advantages over Kobe is interesting to say the least.

And again, there is no data that points to KD being a better defender than Kobe.

[One_and_Done]

There is no data whatsoever that supports that

I wouldn't be so quick to cite data in an argument that is trying to advocate Kobe. He's the opposite of an analytics darling (not that individual defensive stats are that good).

KD was bigger, stronger, longer, more athletic, and more versatile on D than Kobe. He also played in a tougher era for wing defenders. Kobe has a fake rep from clearly erroneous defensive team awards and not much else going for him.

KD is not more athletic than Kobe. Citing strength as 1 of KD's advantages over Kobe is interesting to say the least.

And again, there is no data that points to KD being a better defender than Kobe.

He's not a fancier dunker than Kobe, but athleticism is about more than your vertical jump. Durant is better than Kobe at almost every facet of basketball, in some cases by preposterous degrees.

[TheGOATRises007]

I wouldn't be so quick to cite data in an argument that is trying to advocate Kobe. He's the opposite of an analytics darling (not that individual defensive stats are that good).

KD was bigger, stronger, longer, more athletic, and more versatile on D than Kobe. He also played in a tougher era for wing defenders. Kobe has a fake rep from clearly erroneous defensive team awards and not much else going for him.

KD is not more athletic than Kobe. Citing strength as 1 of KD's advantages over Kobe is interesting to say the least.

And again, there is no data that points to KD being a better defender than Kobe.

He's not a fancier dunker than Kobe, but athleticism is about more than your vertical jump. Durant is better than Kobe at almost every facet of basketball, in some cases by preposterous degrees.

Proves my point even more.

Kobe has a better motor. Better agility. Better strength. Better coordination in the air. Quicker with a better 1st step.

Don't see any argument for KD being superior athletically.

[One_and_Done]

KD is not more athletic than Kobe. Citing strength as 1 of KD's advantages over Kobe is interesting to say the least.

And again, there is no data that points to KD being a better defender than Kobe.

He's not a fancier dunker than Kobe, but athleticism is about more than your vertical jump. Durant is better than Kobe at almost every facet of basketball, in some cases by preposterous degrees.

Proves my point even more.

Kobe has a better motor. Better agility. Better strength. Better coordination in the air. Quicker with a better 1st step.

Don't see any argument for KD being superior athletically.

Even were any of this true, it's alot like saying 'Wes Unseld has a better motor, and agility, and mid-air co-ordination than Shaq!' Like, maybe he does. It's irrelevant though, because it's Shaq. You don't get bonus points for being more versatile if the other guys natural athletic gifts cast everything else into irrelevance.

You know who else is more athletic relative to his size than Shaq? And a better dribbler and shooter with a better motor, and better skills all around? Early Boykins. Does it matter? Not at all, because it doesn't matter that Boykins is more 'skilled', or 'has more mid air control'. All that matters who is more impactful. You don't get points for how pretty the basket looks when you make it, all buckets are tye same regardless.

Kobe is your Wes Unseld. Even if he has things he excels at more than KD, and I said if, KDs overwhelming physical advantages blow it all away. That's probably why KD was so much more impactful on a basketball court when it came to making his teams win, and why Kobe was mediocre when not surrounded by a stacked team.

[TheGOATRises007]

He's not a fancier dunker than Kobe, but athleticism is about more than your vertical jump. Durant is better than Kobe at almost every facet of basketball, in some cases by preposterous degrees.

Proves my point even more.

Kobe has a better motor. Better agility. Better strength. Better coordination in the air. Quicker with a better 1st step.

Don't see any argument for KD being superior athletically.

Even were any of this true, it's alot like saying 'Wes Unseld has a better motor, and agility, and mid-air co-ordination than Shaq!' Like, maybe he does. It's irrelevant though, because it's Shaq. You don't get bonus points for being more versatile if the other guys natural athletic gifts cast everything else into irrelevance.

You know who else is more athletic relative to his size than Shaq? And a better dribbler and shooter with a better motor, and better skills all around? Early Boykins. Does it matter? Not at all, because it doesn't matter that Boykins is more 'skilled', or 'has more mid air control'. All that matters who is more impactful. You don't get points for how pretty the basket looks when you make it, all buckets are tye same regardless.

Kobe is your Wes Unseld. Even if he has things he excels at more than KD, and I said if, KDs overwhelming physical advantages blow it all away. That's probably why KD was so much more impactful on a basketball court when it came to making his teams win, and why Kobe was mediocre when not surrounded by a stacked team.

Highly doubt anyone here would say that. Shaq's one of the most athletic players of all-time during his apex.

You're just going off on a tangent.

You said KD is better athletically. I gave you a rebuttal using Kobe's athleticism only and you're going on about Wes Unseld and Earl Boykins and you shifted the conversation to impact.

I'm going to bow out, because you aren't logical at all when Kobe is involved and I(and others) should know better at this point.

[One_and_Done]

Proves my point even more.

Kobe has a better motor. Better agility. Better strength. Better coordination in the air. Quicker with a better 1st step.

Don't see any argument for KD being superior athletically.

Even were any of this true, it's alot like saying 'Wes Unseld has a better motor, and agility, and mid-air co-ordination than Shaq!' Like, maybe he does. It's irrelevant though, because it's Shaq. You don't get bonus points for being more versatile if the other guys natural athletic gifts cast everything else into irrelevance.

You know who else is more athletic relative to his size than Shaq? And a better dribbler and shooter with a better motor, and better skills all around? Early Boykins. Does it matter? Not at all, because it doesn't matter that Boykins is more 'skilled', or 'has more mid air control'. All that matters who is more impactful. You don't get points for how pretty the basket looks when you make it, all buckets are tye same regardless.

Kobe is your Wes Unseld. Even if he has things he excels at more than KD, and I said if, KDs overwhelming physical advantages blow it all away. That's probably why KD was so much more impactful on a basketball court when it came to making his teams win, and why Kobe was mediocre when not surrounded by a stacked team.

Highly doubt anyone here would say that. Shaq's one of the most athletic players of all-time during his apex.

You're just going off on a tangent.

You said KD is better athletically. I gave you a rebuttal using Kobe's athleticism only and you're going on about Wes Unseld and Earl Boykins and you shifted the conversation to impact.

I'm going to bow out, because you aren't logical at all when Kobe is involved and I(and others) should know better at this point.

Shaq was a great athlete, but not in terms of his vertical jump or mid-air body control or agility. It doesn't matter though, because he is more athletic on the whole.

That's the point that is important here. You can be better at 10 random skills, and still be less skilled than someone else because none of those skills moves the needle much in terms of impact.

A guy might be better at shooting a set shot, shooting it behind his back, shooting it off a guys head, shooting it off one leg with his offhand, etc... but he's still a worse shooter than player X, because none of that stuff matters much.

The claimed advantages in athleticism you grant Kobe are not bad things to have, but none of them matter much in a comparison with a guy who is also very athletic, but in addition is almost 7 feet tall and has arms longer than dragon wings. In that sense it's no different to the Unseld/Shaq comp. Maybe Unseld had a better vertical or motor or mid-air body control, but it doesn't matter because he lacks Shaq's overwhelming physical advantages.

[FrodoBaggins]

Shaq had a 36-inch vertical leap at 303 pounds coming into the league. Combined with his 9-foot-5-inch standing reach, he had a max reach of 12'5".

[Masigond]

Instead of derailing by babbling about Earl Boykins, Shaquille O'Neal and Wes Unseld, One_and_Done could have elaborated about the aspects of athleticism where KD allegedly was superior to Kobe.

About strength: Kevin Durant couldn't bench press 185 lbs in the draft combine, and even though there are reports that he might have reached 315 lbs in later years, Kobe is reported to have bench pressed 300 lbs, too. Not a decisive difference that would make much of an effect on the court, and I think it's not that daring to say that Kobe might have been stronger than Durant for more years in their respective careers as Durant really needed quite some time to bulk up.

In terms of speed Durant might be faster with the ball, I think Kobe's first step was more explosive and he was more agile laterally.

Kobe's vertical was somewhat higher than Durant's (might actually be up to 4-5 inches), but the latter is so much longer that Kobe might not have had an advantage on the court.

Height and longer arms are NOT athleticism. Skills are neither.

It's quite clear that Durant was (is) the superior shooter / scorer. His mid-range (Durant reached Dirk-like precision from that range) and long-range are so much better that this isn't even a contest. Kobe could not be stopped from taking shots, and he actually was quite spectacular in making shots despite being contested. Still a good pass to an open teammate would often have been better than taking a contested shot that Kobe could not hit at way above league average, so I'm not saying that this was the best way to contribute to the Lakers' offense. Durant's shot selection is better and he is the way more talented shooter. Also his length makes it very hard for defenders to contest his shots, so I don't see any advantage for Kobe even if he might have learned so many moves that his versatility became great (unfortunately his talent as a shooter was not good enough to ever become reliable enough as a mid-range or long-range threat compared to many ATGs. Opponents actually wanted Kobe to take those shots as there was quite a good chance on average that the Lakers could not live by this kind of offense. For those games when he outshot the Mavs by himself there are quite some games when he shot his team out of contention. I prefer consistency).
It's also debatable that Durant's basketball IQ might be better than Kobe's (I'm not very keen on Kobe's tunnel vision when he decided that he wanted to be the man to win a game by himself). I think Durant is better in accepting a role and fitting in into the concept of a team offense.

But where is the evidence that Durant is allegedly the better defender? Yes, Durant's length makes him more versatile. But he is not known for being a lock-down defender and he is not known for giving all effort at all times. Kobe's effort is quite overrated as well (and his tendency to lose focus and watch the ball instead of the player assigned to him could be quite hurtful), but there are many games when he showed what kind of defender he could be, especially man-to-man. Overall I'm not convinced that Durant was a better defensive player overall. Without giving any proof this might even be quite a wild claim to make.

Come on, One_and_Done. I'm not a fan of Kobe either, and I'm really annoyed by his stans, but there's no need to make up unproven claims (again and again...) just to degrade a player that you clearly have an agenda against. I think I said it before: Actually I'm even more annoyed by these unhinged tirades of yours than by his fans. Clutching at every straw (even imaginary ones) isn't exactly a constructive way to contribute to profound debates about players anyways.