RealGM 2025 Greatest Peaks Project #2 — 1974 Kareem-Abdul Jabbar

[One_and_Done]

If Shaq was some kind of Duncan stopper then Duncan wouldn't have dropped 28ppg on the Lakers in 03 on 529 FG%, or 29ppg on 513 FG% in 99. It wasn't so much that Shaq was a tough defensive presence in the post (though in general he was), it was that in 02 Duncan had absolutely nothing around him and it was easier to double him.

Duncan absolutely abused Shaq in 99 and 03. In 02 he outplayed him too, he just wasn't as efficient because he was guarding Shaq on one end and then getting doubled on the other.

[Elpolo_14]

If Shaq was some kind of Duncan stopper then Duncan wouldn't have dropped 28ppg on the Lakers in 03 on 529 FG%, or 29ppg on 513 FG% in 99. It wasn't so much that Shaq was a tough defensive presence in the post (though in general he was), it was that in 02 Duncan had absolutely nothing around him and it was easier to double him.

Duncan absolutely abused Shaq in 99 and 03. In 02 he outplayed him too, he just wasn't as efficient because he was guarding Shaq on one end and then getting doubled on the other.

Both things can be true at the same time. Shaq can be an elite Post defender to slow down Duncan and Spurs lacks of Offensive help hinder Duncan to an extent .

I don't think anyone is implying Shaq is stopping Duncan or Cooking him on D like Caruso did to Jokic Game 7. We are just saying that Shaq presence and Strength at the post area put enough pressure to make Duncan Struggle as a post scorer.

Both player didn't guard Each other one-one in every possession. So I don't think PPG average per series matter that much ( possession when they're guarding eachother would be more accurate to judge like 70sfan shown ).

I do agree that Duncan Outplayed Shaq in many occasions like 1999 2002 2003 a( in 1999 defensively D.rob was the primary assignment on Shaq. Not Duncan so some praise might need to be shared among them that series )

[70sFan]

If Shaq was some kind of Duncan stopper then Duncan wouldn't have dropped 28ppg on the Lakers in 03 on 529 FG%, or 29ppg on 513 FG% in 99. It wasn't so much that Shaq was a tough defensive presence in the post (though in general he was), it was that in 02 Duncan had absolutely nothing around him and it was easier to double him.

Duncan absolutely abused Shaq in 99 and 03. In 02 he outplayed him too, he just wasn't as efficient because he was guarding Shaq on one end and then getting doubled on the other.

Duncan outplaying Shaq and struggling against his coverage are not mutually exclusive.

I will provide my 2003 numbers later, but Shaq didn't guard Duncan that much in that series. Neither he did in 1999.

Again, if I find enough time I will provide data and clips. For now, you can watch these 2002 possessions and decide for yourself:

Watch on YouTube

Here is Shaq as well:

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

I hope someone will watch it before coming to conclusions.

[Djoker]

VOTING POST

1. 1991 Michael Jordan

Alternative Years: 1990, 1989, 1988, 1992, 1993 -- Honestly any of those might be the GOAT peak too because there isn't much dropoff but 1991 is just the culmination of everything.

See posts #9 and #14 in the first page of the first thread for why Jordan is my first choice. Those posts are too long to quote on here but basically too many metrics paint him as the best ever to just ignore them IMO.

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2468308

2. 1977 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

Alternative Years: 1974, 1980

Why Kareem > Shaq and why 1977?

In terms of rTS, Kareem blows Shaq out of the water. He's a 70% free throw shooter and has the sky hook so he is the most valuable during crunch time of all the top centers. Kareem is a more active defender. He can't foul out entire frontcourts but on the other hand he has no exploitable weaknesses. Shaq's weakness in P&R defense was exploited by many teams namely the Kings and Spurs and teams resorted to Hack-a-Shaq in crunch time. In the 2000 Finals Shaq shot 38% from the line and missed a whopping 57 free throws in that series.

Per 75 Regular Season Stats:
1977 Kareem: 24.5 pts, 12.5 reb (3.0 o), 3.6 ass, 3.0 blk, 1.1 stl on 60.8 %TS (+9.7 rTS) with ? to
2000 Shaq: 28.6 pts, 13.1 reb (4.1 o), 3.7 ass, 2.9 blk, 0.5 stl on 57.8 %TS (+5.5 rTS) with 2.7 to

Per 75 Playoff Stats:
1977 Kareem: 28.4 pts, 14.6 reb (3.8 o), 3.4 ass, 2.9 blk, 1.4 stl on 64.6 %TS (+13.5 rTS) with ? to
2000 Shaq: 28.2 pts, 14.2 reb (4.7 o), 2.9 ass, 2.2 blk, 0.5 stl on 55.6 %TS (+3.3 rTS) with 2.3 to

That efficiency really jumps out at you! And given Kareem's lack of weaknesses and more active defense I don't see how he doesn't get a nod over Shaq for me. It's not a slam dunk or anything but I have more faith that peak Kareem is the better basketball player. And even though this is a peaks project not a longevity discussion, Kareem's better longevity still makes me more confident in his peak. He was a very similar player from 1974-1980 while IMO definitely peaking in 1977. The reason I pick this version of Kareem over 1971 and 1974 is that he's a lot thicker and more capable of dealing with physicality than in his Bucks' days. Unlike his early career, he weighed around 260 lbs so could also bang with big centers. And in 1979/1980 he's still the same guy offensively but has lost a little bit of motor and become a worse rebounder and also started cruising in the regular season a bit too much to be among the GOAT peaks.

Shaq's impact metrics look insane and we don't have the numbers for Kareem so it's not really an apples to apples comparison but the breakdown of their games makes me favour Kareem ever so slightly.

3. 2000 Shaquille O'Neal

Alternative Years: 2001

Nominate: 1967 Wilt Chamberlain

[tsherkin]

Voting Post

Going to re-iterate/C+P my post for spot one and try to get more involved in the conversation.

The root idea here is that I think Russell's defensive impact is unprecedented stuff and that the dominance Boston exerted there with fairly weak offense (indeed, the WORST offense in the 64 regular season, among the 9 teams) is quite impressive to me. They killed the boards, they crushed it on D and they were really, really unremarkable on O. But it worked. Even if that strategy doesn't really work in the post-Russell eras, it did at the time, and that's vaguely insane. I feel like Jokic's inclusion is reasonably clear, even if one disagrees. That 2023 season was wild. With Magic, he was leading best-in-league-history kind of offenses and still crushing it with Old Kareem and without him. If not for the HIV situation, I feel like the first half of the 90s would have been very, very different, particularly as he developed his shot and his post game and was just putting people on an island and murdering them.

Obviously, decent amount of subjectivity involved in any of these things. The other nominees, guys like Lebron and Jordan and so forth, I can certainly see arguments for them (and there are some well-articulated defenses of their candidacy), but I wanted to generate some discussion about Russell's defensive impact and non-scorers, and then efficient-scoring playmakers and such.

Player #1: Bill Russell 1964

Best defense we've ever seen. Led the league in rebounding in the RS and then again in the PS (and went from like 25 to 27 rpg). Captained the team to a title with his dominant performance, after leading his team to the best record in the RS. We've never seen anything like Russell's era-relative impact defensively, nor anything like his team dominance. I don't subscribe to the idea that we should ignore earlier eras due to the differences between then and now, and Russell's run is the most dominant in league history, authored on the back of what he did as a rebounder and defender (and passer, at that).

Player #2: Magic Johnson 1990

Not quite Magic's scoring peak, but on top of his usual, he was bombing 3s, crushing it at the line, was a dominant playmaker, fully matured in his post game. One of his MVP seasons, and well-earned. An absolute unit leading another insane offense in his first season without Kareem.


Player #3: Nikola Jokic 2023

The wildest offensive RS we've ever seen, IMHO. A 25/12/10 season on 70% TS that turned into 30/14/10 still on 63% TS en route to a title and Finals MVP. Should have been the MVP. An insane mix of post game, shooting ability, court vision, rebounding and so forth.

HM: Kareem in several seasons, and too many others to mention, really. Lots of great choices, including others nominated.

[Top10alltime]

VOTING POST

1. 1991 Michael Jordan

Alternative Years: 1990, 1989, 1988, 1992, 1993 -- Honestly any of those might be the GOAT peak too because there isn't much dropoff but 1991 is just the culmination of everything.

See posts #9 and #14 in the first page of the first thread for why Jordan is my first choice. Those posts are too long to quote on here but basically too many metrics paint him as the best ever to just ignore them IMO.

Why not link it here?

[Elpolo_14]

If Shaq was some kind of Duncan stopper then Duncan wouldn't have dropped 28ppg on the Lakers in 03 on 529 FG%, or 29ppg on 513 FG% in 99. It wasn't so much that Shaq was a tough defensive presence in the post (though in general he was), it was that in 02 Duncan had absolutely nothing around him and it was easier to double him.

Duncan absolutely abused Shaq in 99 and 03. In 02 he outplayed him too, he just wasn't as efficient because he was guarding Shaq on one end and then getting doubled on the other.

Duncan outplaying Shaq and struggling against his coverage are not mutually exclusive.

I will provide my 2003 numbers later, but Shaq didn't guard Duncan that much in that series. Neither he did in 1999.

Again, if I find enough time I will provide data and clips. For now, you can watch these 2002 possessions and decide for yourself:

Watch on YouTube

Here is Shaq as well:

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

I hope someone will watch it before coming to conclusions.

REALLY GREAT VIDEO AND COLLECTION OF CLIP FOR AN EASIER STUDYING.

I will try to track it down for my own analysis and if people wanna read and watch at the same time.( The first and longest Clip )
Duncan Scoring when Shaq is the primary+secondary defender on him:

P1 - Duncan blowby the prerimeter defender and meet Shaq at the rim. Shaq contest and block Duncan attempt bucket. Duncan retain possession and try another shot which Shaq contest again make Duncan miss. ( 2 contest shot - 0/2 FGA )
P2 - Duncan get a bounce pass at the post area. Shaq in paint but doesn't closeout on Duncan ( lazy pickup ). Duncan still missed ( 0/1 FGA )
P3 - Shaq lazy let Duncan openly cut to baskest for a Putback Dunk ( 1/1 FGA )
P4 - Duncan receive the ball near post/wing. With Shaq face up guard him. Duncan fake many time and drive on Shaq pushing him back for a layup ( 1 contest - 1/1 FGA )
P5 - Duncan get ball on wing pass inside. Shaq doesn't deny Duncan lane who cut and put the shot back in ( 1/1 FGA )
P6 - Duncan post up another player and spin pass him when Shaq came up as help defender to block shot. Duncan get rebound Shaq is the help defender to contest shot for 2 more attempt ( 3 help Contest - 0/3 FGA )
P7 - Duncan get ball in post try to post Shaq up but Shaq doesn't move. Force Duncan to make tough shot and miss ( 1 Contest - 0/1 FGA )
P8 - Duncan have the ball in Wing area with Shaq on him. Duncan see a sizable gap so he pull up midrange ( 1 lazy contest - 1/1 FGA )
P9 - Duncan have ball In paint with Shaq deny position and another laker doubling force Duncan pass ball out.
P10 - Shaq face up guard Duncan at ft line and block the driving lane. Duncan shoot a midrange which Shaq contest ( 1 contest - 0/1 FGA )
P11 - Duncan got ball on short corner try to dribble inside with Shaq covering miss a short midrange ( 1 contest - 0/1 FGA )
P12 - Duncan have ball in paint with Shaq slowing him down. Then another Lakers come double force Duncan pass.
P13 - Duncan get ball at wing then drive on Shaq but Shaq force him to a guard which able to steal Duncan ball
P14 - in Transition Duncan bring ball up see Shaq leaving too much room at elbow so Duncan pull up midrange ( 1 lazy contest - 1/1 FGA )
P15 - Duncan have ball in post but too slow to make decisions cause Shaq is on him then Kobe come double force Duncan to pass
P16 - Duncan with ball play PnP near the paint then Shaq come up the rim to help contest shot ( 1 help contest - 0/1 FGA )
P17 - Duncan drive to the paint then Shaq come help Contest. Duncan get rebound but Shaq stay tight on him force Duncan TOV with a guard steal. ( 1 Help contest - 0/1 FGA )
P18- Shaq on Duncan offball but Shaq switch to contest another player who fake then pass to Duncan in paint for a shot ( 1/1 FGA )
P 19 - Duncan receive ball in post so Shaq go help as secondary interior defender force
Duncan TOV
P 20 - Duncan get ball in post Shaq try help cut the passing lane but loses in man who Duncan dump the ball to for a lay up.
P21- Duncan with ball on wing with Shaq putting pressure on the ball and force TOV with his hand and strength
P22 - Duncan in post with Shaq Deny entry to the rim. Duncan pump fake many time the dribble inside for a foul.
P23 - Duncan get ball near elbow pump fake then pull up on Shaq who contest shot ( 1 contest - 0/1 FGA )
P24 - Duncan attempt drive but Shaq tight coverage. Duncan pass ball out
P25 - Duncan drive by his defender then Shaq come pickup to contest shot at rim ( 1 contest - 0/1 FGA )
P26 - Duncan posture Shaq from wing to post Area then spin move rise up for a contested bank shot ( 1 Contest - 1/1 FGA )
P27 - Duncan get ball at up ft line see Shaq a bit too far to close out so he pull up miss shot ( 1 Lazy Contest - 0/1 FGA )
P28 - Duncan post up pump fake which Shaq bite then drive in for a layup but missed ( 0/1 FGA )
P29 - Duncan try to post Shaq in paint area with a soft double on him. Force Duncan TOV
P30 - Duncan face up game on Shaq pump fake fora moment then pull up midrange on Shaq ( 1 Contest - 1/1 FGA )
P31 - Duncan bring ball up then play PnP then pull up off screen which Shaq try to contest but tit was a lob pass.
P32 - Shaq on Duncan in ft line area. Shaq get screen then decide to drop leave Duncan for a midrange Missed.
P33 - Shaq deny Duncan positioning for a moment so a double team come on Duncan but it a foul
P34 - in Transition Duncan get leave wild open at 3 pt line which he make the shot.
P35 - Duncan post up shat to the paint attempt to raise up but Shaq hit ball out his hand for a TOV
P36 - Duncan move off ball to get pass at elbow then drive on Shaq who foul Duncan
P37 - Duncan attempt post the raise up to pass for an assist.
P38 - Duncan get pass at elbow then he drive to meet Shaq contest at rim. Shaq foul Duncan
P39 - Duncan receive ball at wing with Shaq on him. Shaq get screen but still edge to contest the midrange ( 1 contest - 0/1 FGA )
P40 - Duncan get ball at wing then he drive thru Shaq nearly a blowby but get foul near paint but a Lakers.
P41 - in Transition Duncan run pass Shaq to the rim and get an alley oop dunk
P42 - Shaq help Deny driving lane of a guard the. Switch on Duncan to contest his drive layup ( 1 contest - 0/1 FGA )
P 43 - DUNCAN Post-up Shaq then saw double team coming so Duncan reset. Post-up raise up on Shaq who contest but foul.
P44 - Duncan cannot post up Shaq so he decided to pass but is too slow to deliver and get the ball stole by Kobe who help double
P45 - Duncan get ball short Corner with Shaq on him see Kobe come double but make a bad pass TOV
P46 - Duncan face up game on shaq at post. Then pullups for a bucket ( 1 Lazy contest - 1/1 FGA )
P47 - Duncan go screen PnP but Shaq is guarding with drop coverage. Duncan see space so he pull up on Shaq lazy contest but Miss ( 1 Lazy Contest - 0/1 FGA )
P 48 - Duncan face up on Shaq then drive but Shaq contest shot hit it to Lakers teammates ( 1 contest - 0/1 FGA )
P 49 - Duncan face up Shaq. Pump fake which Shaq bite a bit then drive by for layup but Shaq ablz to block from behind ( 1 contest - 0/1 FGA )
P50 - Shaq leaving Duncan offball to go in paint. Duncan get ball at ft line then shot it on Shaq contest ( 1 Lazy Contest - 0/1 FGA )
P51 - Duncan post up Shaq see double coming so he pass out to Prerimeter for an assist
P52 - Duncan go screen for PnP which Shaq is using drop coverage. Duncan get ball then shot but Missed ( 0/1 FGA )
P53 - Shaq overcommitted on help Duncan get ball drive inside Shaq jump contest but Duncan fake then sneak in easy layup ( 1/1 FGA )
P54 - Duncan get ball try a dunk but Shaq help block from behind ( 1 contest - 1/1 FGA )
P55 - Duncan get ball at 3pt line then drive on Shaq but get triple due to shot clock force to pass
P56 - Shaq hand up guard Duncan at ft line but Duncan see opening bounce pass in rim for Assist
P57 - Shaq on Duncan but get screen but Shaq still cover Duncan tight. Duncan try drive lay up but get block by shaq
P58 - Duncan postup drive on Shaq but missed ( 1 Lazy Contest - 0/1 FGA )
P59 - Shaq is ball watching loses Duncan offball who able to get rebound and put back ( 1/1 FGA )

Overall
Contest ( primary defender ) - 15
Lazy contest ( primary defender ) - 7
Help Contest ( secondary ) - 5
D-FGA ( both primary and secondary defender )- 33
D- FGM ( both primary and secondary defender ) - 12
D-FG ( both primary and secondary defender ) -> 12/33 or o.364 FG%


Some of Duncan miss shot could be argue that Shaq didn't contribute to those cause of his lazy contest or Playing drop while Duncan play PnP but I counted it in the total from the video. And not be counted as D-FG in favor of Shaq ( if you wanna have different PoV you need to watch the clip )

Overall summarize - Shaq was elite against Duncan in the post and paint area to deny Duncan positioning or driving lane and being physical enough to push Duncan out of his comfort zone. But Shaq also have his weakness which Duncan able to exploit at the prerimeter or when he play off the ball as cutter + PnP.

[Elpolo_14]

Voting Post
The wildest offensive RS we've ever seen, IMHO. A 25/12/10 season on 70% TS that turned into 30/14/10 still on 63% TS en route to a title and Finals MVP. Should have been the MVP. An insane mix of post game, shooting ability, court vision, rebounding and so forth.

I wouldn't said Jokic should be this high but that Just my criteria. ( Him being an average defender as a big is a big factor for me )

Jokic in the playoffs against Mid defensive team ( -1.3 rDRTG and bottom seed team in general ) put into perspective on how easy his Playoff run was compare to other all time great you didn't put in the podium.( You have Jokic as top 3 since the first thread )

JoKic against these mid defense able on Anchor ( on court ) +7.4 rORTG adj. which is a big step down of ONE OF THE Wildest RS offensive engine. Also not to diminish Jokic offensive prowler in the playoffs but his Estimate help were +4.5 Offense Rating ( which is one of the best these pass few years. Actually the best since 2018 GSW ) and have one of the best playoff riser that year in Jamal Murray who was putting 2001 Kobe number in the playoffs. I know it a low sample size but Jokic in the playoffs without Jamal Murray from 2021-2025 is quite a much worse Offensive Engine. ( Even in 2023-2025 sample filtered garbage time )

Jokic Stat IA/75 in the playoffs is great tho
-> 28.5 PPG / 13.0 RPG / 9.1 APG on 3.4 TOV with 63.1 TS ( +5.3 rTS adj. Or +8.1rTS adj. For self rebound )

What is your biggest reasoning for Nikola Jokic to be that high. Is the offensive ability able to gap the void in defense?. ( Just wanna have some discussion nothing serious )

[tsherkin]

What is your biggest reasoning for Nikola Jokic to be that high. Is the offensive ability able to gap the void in defense?. ( Just wanna have some discussion nothing serious )

Yep, the potency of his offense, his ability to maintain an insane level of production and efficiency in the playoffs, the breadth of his impact on that end of the floor, him smashing around 3.5 orpg in the playoffs on a relatively slow team. That blend of scoring and playmaking, and how that enabled the rest of the team. Bunch of stats have him competitive with Lebron and MJ at their peaks, or at least near enough that it isn't a laughable consideration, etc.

[Elpolo_14]

What is your biggest reasoning for Nikola Jokic to be that high. Is the offensive ability able to gap the void in defense?. ( Just wanna have some discussion nothing serious )

Yep, the potency of his offense, his ability to maintain an insane level of production and efficiency in the playoffs, the breadth of his impact on that end of the floor, him smashing around 3.5 orpg in the playoffs on a relatively slow team. That blend of scoring and playmaking, and how that enabled the rest of the team. Bunch of stats have him competitive with Lebron and MJ at their peaks, or at least near enough that it isn't a laughable consideration, etc.

Maintaining his insane level of production and efficiency might not be totally true. In playoffs His efficiency for the past 3 year tend to drop by -5.5 rTs relative to regular season ( or -4.56 rTS adj. To opponent "-2.9 rDRTG" )
For example Lebron 12-14 is dropping by -2.9 rTS relative to regular season ( or -0.07 rTS adj. To opponent "-3.4 rDRtG" )

Also about production the past 3 year on court offense in regular season Jokic is +10.6 rORTG while in the playoffs is +5.4 rORTG
Example: lebron Reg szn +7.9 rORTG while in playoffs +9.8 rORTG. ( The same example can be made for MJ 3 year Stretch )

MJ and Lebron have sustain much better production and efficiency among their playoff run even against better defensive team or better team as a whole that Jokic face in 2023. MJ has like 90 91 93 96 which he rise up and being more resilience. Lebron also have 09 12 13 16 17 which he sustain his production or even become better in playoffs setting in some of these year.

His overall ability as offensive engine is undeniable which is why I have him around top 6-8 Peak ever. But you mentioned he have elite impact number which are close to MJ and Lebron. So why do you chose Jokic instead of them. When they're in similar tier as offensive player ( IMO ) and being elite on the other side of the ball by their position. ( Also better playoff translation )

[tsherkin]

Maintaining his insane level of production and efficiency might not be totally true. In playoffs His efficiency for the past 3 year tend to drop by -5.5 rTs relative to regular season ( or -4.56 rTS adj. To opponent "-2.9 rDRTG" )

I didn't mean to suggest that his PS production was identical to his RS production, I only meant to note that it was still nuttily-high therein.

Jokic was a 64% TS guy in the 2023 playoffs. By series, it was 57.5, 66.3, 59.8 and then 67.2 in the Finals. It was brilliant stuff. And yes, like anyone, some of the stronger Ds/better matchups took the edge off of his performance, for sure. Same thing that happened to Jordan, Lebron, etc, etc.

[Elpolo_14]

Maintaining his insane level of production and efficiency might not be totally true. In playoffs His efficiency for the past 3 year tend to drop by -5.5 rTs relative to regular season ( or -4.56 rTS adj. To opponent "-2.9 rDRTG" )

I didn't mean to suggest that his PS production was identical to his RS production, I only meant to note that it was still nuttily-high therein.

Jokic was a 64% TS guy in the 2023 playoffs. By series, it was 57.5, 66.3, 59.8 and then 67.2 in the Finals. It was brilliant stuff. And yes, like anyone, some of the stronger Ds/better matchups took the edge off of his performance, for sure. Same thing that happened to Jordan, Lebron, etc, etc.

We are talking about playoff run as a whole so yeah I agree some series can give trouble for the player separately.
Match up and Defense he face matter but that also the problem. MJ 3 year Stretch ( 89-91 )and Lebron 3 year Stretch×2 ( 12-14 and 16-18 ) didn't drop as a whole as much as Jokic did in his peak 2023-25 year Stretch. Or even compare to other Goat tier 1 year peak.

They're able to show much better resilience and translation against playoff setting team to a high rate.

That why I'm trying to see your point on how you place Jokic among the best of the best peak all time. ( Is there any other reasoning like the league got better with more skills+analytics and you think his offensive is the most polished due to this era talent etc.. ) maybe it could make me be higher on Jokic peak too.

[Djoker]

I recall Jokic having dominant rim dFG% numbers in the 2023 playoffs. In that run at least, he was pretty good on D. Jokic generally isn't a great shot blocker and gets killed by small guys on the perimeter due to lack of foot speed but he is a monster on the defensive glass, fouls at very low rates, and gets plenty of steals for a big guy. Those things all help. Advanced metrics see him as a slight positive on D. He isn't some liability people pretend he is.

That said, I'm not convinced he peaked higher than the great two-way bigs of the past eras.

[tsherkin]

Match up and Defense he face matter but that also the problem. MJ 3 year Stretch ( 90-92 )and Lebron 3 year Stretch×2 ( 12-14 and 16-18 ) didn't drop as a whole as much as Jokic did in his peak 2023-25 year Stretch. Or even compare to other Goat tier 1 year peak.

Raw drop means a little less to me in this context given deviation.

For Jordan, for example...
Year: RS TS% (rtS) / PS TS% (rTS)
90: 60.6 (+7.1) / 59.2 (+5.0%) / 14th, 16th and 2nd-ranked defenses
91: 60.5 (+7.1)/ 60.0 (+5.3) / 12th, 16th, 4th, and 5th-ranked defenses (the last being LA, who had some injuries but MJ lit the hell up, for sure)
92: 57.9 (+4.8)/ 57.1 (+2.6) / 25th (Glen Rice era, not Mourning), 2nd, 11th and 3rd-ranked defenses.

2023 Jokic: 70.1% (+12.0%) / 63.1% (+6.5%) / 10th, 7th, 11th and 9th-ranked defenses

Jokic's playoff deviation remains better than the best of Jordan's in that period, and his RS deviation blows Jordan out of the water.

Meantime, as the defensive efficacy of his opponents changed, so too did Jordan's performance. When he actually faced a bunch of healthy, quality defenses, his overall scoring efficiency performance was quite a bit different than in the prior two seasons. And he had a good series against the 90 Pistons, but not a transcendent one... and he didn't shine as brightly at all in Game 7, points total notwithstanding (although anyone sane would blame the rest of the starters shooting 10/49 for that lost, obviously, and BJ Armstrong's 1/8).

So yeah. Jokic peaked higher in terms of his deviation from league average relative to the specific years you mentioned, and his playoff deviation was also better. And he wasn't chewing up the softer defenses we saw Jordan facing in 90, 91 and the start of the 92 postseason in quite the same proportion. Didn't have the same high-end either, of course, so you can choose how to value that.

[tsherkin]

That said, I'm not convinced he peaked higher than the great two-way bigs of the past eras.

There's certainly an argument for some of them depending on exactly how you value their D. You'll notice that I have Russell ahead of Jokic here, for example. And I can certainly see the Hakeem argument. I don't really see it for D-Rob due to his playoff troubles. I can see an argument for Wilt in certain seasons. I don't see it for Mourning, nor for the one-ways (other than Russ) like Big Ben, Mutombo, etc. I can certainly see an argument for Kareem, who I already have in my honorable mentions, etc.

[Elpolo_14]

Match up and Defense he face matter but that also the problem. MJ 3 year Stretch ( 90-92 )and Lebron 3 year Stretch×2 ( 12-14 and 16-18 ) didn't drop as a whole as much as Jokic did in his peak 2023-25 year Stretch. Or even compare to other Goat tier 1 year peak.

Raw drop means a little less to me in this context given deviation.

For Jordan, for example...
Year: RS TS% (rtS) / PS TS% (rTS)
90: 60.6 (+7.1) / 59.2 (+5.0%) / 14th, 16th and 2nd-ranked defenses
91: 60.5 (+7.1)/ 60.0 (+5.3) / 12th, 16th, 4th, and 5th-ranked defenses (the last being LA, who had some injuries but MJ lit the hell up, for sure)
92: 57.9 (+4.8)/ 57.1 (+2.6) / 25th (Glen Rice era, not Mourning), 2nd, 11th and 3rd-ranked defenses.

2023 Jokic: 70.1% (+12.0%) / 63.1% (+6.5%) / 10th, 7th, 11th and 9th-ranked defenses

Jokic's playoff deviation remains better than the best of Jordan's in that period, and his RS deviation blows Jordan out of the water.

Meantime, as the defensive efficacy of his opponents changed, so too did Jordan's performance. When he actually faced a bunch of healthy, quality defenses, his overall scoring efficiency performance was quite a bit different than in the prior two seasons. And he had a good series against the 90 Pistons, but not a transcendent one... and he didn't shine as brightly at all in Game 7, points total notwithstanding (although anyone sane would blame the rest of the starters shooting 10/49 for that lost, obviously, and BJ Armstrong's 1/8).

So yeah. Jokic peaked higher in terms of his deviation from league average relative to the specific years you mentioned, and his playoff deviation was also better. And he wasn't chewing up the softer defenses we saw Jordan facing in 90, 91 and the start of the 92 postseason in quite the same proportion. Didn't have the same high-end either, of course, so you can choose how to value that.

Tbh I wrote the wrong year for MJ. It should have been 89-91 for the 3 year Stretch. ( Which he had better on court offense anchor average among them higher than Jokic 3 year span " the worse among these MJ 3 year is +7.2 rORTG" )

As single Year PS run peak example like 2023 Jokic.
In playoffs 91 MJ is +8.0 rTS adj. And anchor +13.2 rORTG in he playoffs ( data by Djoker tracking ). While Facing -1.65 rDRTG. MJ best Number efficiency wise come from -3.3 piston series ( he was +13.0 rTS adj. )and -2.9 Lakers ( he was +10.2 rts adj. )series. So padding against mid defense doesn't apply here. So both efficiency and Offensive impact/production wipe Jokic out of the water. While facing better team on average and did better against better defense

Also talking about injury The heats in the final were also really dump by injury luck like the piston MJ faced so talking about Injury isn't beneficial for anyone.

To NOTE : 63.1 TS% in 2023 is only +5.0 rTS% ( the league were shooting 58.1 TS% on average )

But then I can totally see your point. Jokic being one of the best regular season Player on offense side is tremendously Valuable ( The best on/off swing in a longer stretch all time ). His floor rising with an ok ish Supporting case is really a Notable point. Him having almost unlimited Skillsets as an offensive engine help his case as all time peak/career player. He's the perfect offense for this modern Era.

[Elpolo_14]

I recall Jokic having dominant rim dFG% numbers in the 2023 playoffs. In that run at least, he was pretty good on D. Jokic generally isn't a great shot blocker and gets killed by small guys on the perimeter due to lack of foot speed but he is a monster on the defensive glass, fouls at very low rates, and gets plenty of steals for a big guy. Those things all help. Advanced metrics see him as a slight positive on D. He isn't some liability people pretend he is.

That said, I'm not convinced he peaked higher than the great two-way bigs of the past eras.

In 2023 Playoff He was 29.3 D-FGA/Per 100 with -1.6 FG diff% with 10.0 D-Reb and 3.6 PF. He was a positive to an extent. I never believe him to be a negative defender like many narrative. He is an average defender for me and can uplifted his ability to slight better than average come playoff time.

Although I agree with you that Jokic isn't a two way big and there not much argument possibly made for him to be one.

[tsherkin]

To NOTE : 63.1 TS% in 2023 is only +5.0 rTS% ( the league were shooting 58.1 TS% on average )

63.1% TS was in the playoffs, during which the league posted an average of 56.6%.

[Elpolo_14]

To NOTE : 63.1 TS% in 2023 is only +5.0 rTS% ( the league were shooting 58.1 TS% on average )

63.1% TS was in the playoffs, during which the league posted an average of 56.6%.

Then I would say My bad and sorry for the misunderstanding. I thought you were comparing to the whole league average not the playoff one ( which is a good choice ).

What do you think is the most important aspect of a player in your Estimation to evaluate them higher among their all time pier.

[tsherkin]

Then I would say My bad and sorry for the misunderstanding. I thought you were comparing to the whole league average not the playoff one ( which is a good choice ).

I compared his (and Jordan's) RS TS% to the RS league-average, and their playoff TS% to the playoff league average. It seemed more appropriate.

What do you think is the most important aspect of a player in your Estimation to evaluate them higher among their all time pier.

Tough question. Hard to pin down to a single thing. I've always found that simplifying to one isn't really that helpful, since it's the multivariate whole which tells the story.