Top 25 peaks of the 2001-25: #13-#14 Spots

[Top10alltime]

2021, and 2024.

Are these run good enough to contend for top 15 here? I personally don't think so.

They're good enough for top 15 all-time.

Also injuries count, so it shouldn't be held against him.

What do you mean by that? For me what matters is how you perform on the court. If you don't perform or perform poorly due to injuries, then it makes your season significantly less valuable.

It is context to the situation, so it takes away less from them, than you would usually take away.

RealGM counts the RS for when it comes to their homeboys, but when it comes to Embiid, his top 10 level RS is thrown out the window and only focusing on his playoffs.

RS is the only reason why Embiid will likely end up on this list. Also, I wouldn't be so sure about Embiid having top 10 RS here. The only season I'd call ATG is 2023 and it's followed by weak postseason.

He had an ATG RS in 2024, as well. But in 2023, his skillset is good enough to place him EASILY top 10 here. And that weak postseason is better than anything from Drob too (who is in the top 25 peaks ever, easily)

[70sFan]

They're good enough for top 15 all-time.

First round exit from 2024 is a top 15 postseason all-time?

It is context to the situation, so it takes away less from them, than you would usually take away.

I don't agree with that. If you consistently happen to be injured in the playoffs, then it's what you give your team. It doesn't matter if it's caused by injury or your weaknesses if you can't overcome that.

He had an ATG RS in 2024, as well.

He had an ATG 39 games in 2024, which isn't even a half of the full RS. I don't rate this season even as all-nba worthy, availability is more important than anything you can do.

But in 2023, his skillset is good enough to place him EASILY top 10 here.

That's your opinion, but I don't think I agree. You excuse all his shortcomings in the playoffs by injuries, I think some of that is actually caused by his skillset deficiencies.

And that weak postseason is better than anything from Drob too (who is in the top 25 peaks ever, easily)

This is not a thread for David Robinson, but even then I don't agree with that. Embiid missed 2 out of 11 games in that run and in the 7 games against Boston he had only one game with a positive +/-. Of course, his boxscore production took a massive hit, as always, and he ended the series with a horrible game 7.

If you think that's better than anything Robinson did, then don't put Robinson inside your top 25. I am not going to vote for Embiid anytime soon, we have plenty of great options left.

[ReggiesKnicks]

Dwight Howard is an exceptional regular-season player, but he doesn't pop in the postseason.

His level of play in 2009, especially when paired with Jameer Nelson, is incredible. Dwight+Jameer eclipsed +15.0 Net Rtg together on the court in over 1,000 minutes.

We also see Dwight with floor spacing of 4's in Rashard Lewis/Ryan Anderson put up terrific line-up data. One may say "That requires a specific roster construction", but spacing 4's are prevalent in the modern NBA. Now, where I do get hung up is the fact that Orlando was one step ahead of the entire NBA when it comes to applying current-day spacing concepts. Orlando led the league in 3PAR each season from 2009 to 2011, and in 2010 and 2011, they led by a significant margin.

For such a dominant regular season player, +9.4 Net Rtg on-court in the 2009 to 2011 period, his postseason fell to just +2.6. A significant reason for this is Dwight's limited offensive game, which hinders his impact due to its simplicity. Dwight had some putrid turnover series, including the 2009 Finals, the 2010 Eastern Conference Finals, and the 2011 Eastern Conference Quarterfinals. I recently came across a fascinating statistic: in the 2011 ECQF vs. Atlanta series, Dwight had 3 assists and 33 turnovers. That is not a type, but a 1:1 Assist-to-turnover ratio, including 3 games with 1 assist and 23 turnovers in total.

All this to say, Dwight was a menace defensively. He anchored the 1st, 3rd, and 3rd best defenses in this stretch and was the best defender on the team by a significant margin. And yet, his defensive impact metrics don't pop. Orlando was always a good defense when Dwight went to the bench, which gives me pause about giving Dwight, the 3-time DPOY, too many flowers on that end.

In summary, Dwight is a player who is exceeded defensively by multiple remaining entries on this list, notably Draymond Green and Rudy Gobert, as well as players like Tyson Chandler and Marc Gasol, who have serious arguments for being better defensively than Dwight at his pinnacle.

[lessthanjake]

I’ve not thought about it all that much and this isn’t an exhaustive list, but I think I’d probably have all of the following above Embiid (in no particular order):

Harden
Chris Paul
Ginobili
Nash
Durant
Anthony Davis
Draymond
Luka
Jimmy Butler
Tatum
Dwight Howard

After that, it gets a bit murkier and maybe I’d actually vote for Embiid. But there’d only be a couple spots left at that point, and guys like Westbrook, McGrady, and Kidd might go above him too. So I’m honestly not even sure I’ll be voting for Embiid at all. Which feels crazy to say, given how good he is when he plays and is healthy, but he’s just a wreck by the playoffs like every prime year, and I have a strong aversion to voting for years like that in a greatest-peaks project. I guess I should probably find my way to voting for 2021 Embiid, since his playoffs wasn’t actually bad that year, but even then he missed like 30% of the regular season and then his team got upset by a completely mediocre team in the playoffs (though to be fair, a lot of that was because of what happened with him off the court—they did solidly outscore the Hawks with him on).

[Doctor MJ]

Injuries absolutely get held against you when evaluating peaks. He can’t stay healthy. It’s a legitimate angle to say that Embiid can never lead you to a title because he can never stay healthy enough for a title run.

Yup, these are long established norms in sports.

Fine to disagree they should be, but wrong to talk as if this isn't how things have always been.

[Owly]

I understand that "great" will invoke/integrate what might loosely be called non standard-of-play/narrative factors. Personally my preference is not to because (to me) it's a less pure, less interesting and less like-for-like conversation. To me it's not that different from if someone wants to argue Pete Maravich is "greater" than, say, Calvin Natt because he's more iconic. People can disagree and even within narrow confines of player goodness/impact on probability of winning ... it's not simple.


Regarding 20% CORP ... I may very well be wrong, or misunderstanding but I'm not sure if it's being used correctly here and I'm (and I'm even less confident here) not sure the AI math is correct either.

On part one ... these things only make sense for calculating probability if the sum is 100% or 1. That would be the case if you did teams' championship of title. It already gets complicated at player level because teams carry different numbers of players over a season ... an oversimplified version that sort of still fits is "chance of NBA title given player NBA starter" (obviously starters change, players worthy of measure come off the bench, but trying to keep things simple). My guess is that isn't the case with Championship Over Replacement Player. I'm not sure if/how the math should stack up in this case but I don't think it would be to 100%.

Quickly eyeballing the Backpicks 40 graphs I don't think it is the case anecdotally for a given year. Looking at 2004 and eyeballing the guys from the top 30 of ... I got

James 0.03
O'Neal 0.14
Duncan 0.19
Garnett 0.26
Bryant 0.12
Nowitzki 0.11
Nash 0.09
Wade 0.05
Miller 0.03
Already we're at 1.02.
I may be wrong in the numbers given and there are some players who might be below replacement player that add negatives ... broadly, I think this supports me that CORP isn't intended sum to 100% or be a raw "player probability of title".

15 players per team, CORP should (theoretically) sum to ~15 for the league.

That's if we took 'replacement player' as the best player not in the league. It's entirely possible it could be set to 12 or 10 or whatever total league CORP by moving the baseline of 'replacement player'. I'm not certain what # Ben used, but that's the concept.

So...

if you were going to do raw probability of a particular player winning a title, say doing it after the fact ... everyone on the title team gets 1, everyone not gets 0. 15-man roster. That sums to 15. That's not the actual probabilities but summing to 15 makes sense the cumulative player title probability matches the number of title winning players. That works.

And from there notionally each team carries 15 so it'd simplify to each player as 1/30.

And I'm taking the "next best player" idea as intended (better players than the worst NBA players in reality do play in other leagues, but for a simple model ...)

I think my questions then would be ...
Does the idea of "not on their team but across the range of possible teams" not janky-up things? Isn't that part of CORP-evaluations? Does that not divorce it from reality or should we expect it to balance out?
Doesn't every player's model imagining them being replaced by a replacement player, something that won't actually happen, mean the number shouldn't sum up like a "real" probability should?
And then ... I don't know my brain's too tired to think ... I just remember simple Bayesian tables and how often we intuitively get stuff wrong and confuse different aspects ... I don't know, as I say, I'm tired. Thanks for engaging anyhow.

[Cavsfansince84]

For me currently, I see AD, KD, CP3, Luka, Harden and Nash as the clear top 6. AD is my #1 due to being elite on offense/defense, great playoffs and wins a ring. There's no real flaw to point at and really I think he could be argued over a few guys already in except that he's semi penalized for playing with LeBron who was prob just as good as AD was that year if not better.
#2 to me comes down to KD, Harden and Luka. Worth noting that the teams Dallas beat on the way to the finals ranked 7th, 2nd and 3rd in srs that season. Luka had an incredible run even while banged up. A lot of similarity between him and Harden and I lean Luka simply because imo his mixture of size/girth makes him harder to stop in the playoffs. He's also capable of getting hot from 3 like he did in 2 of the series in the 2024 run which makes him so complete on offense.
So likely putting AD then Luka then KD or Harden. Then past this group of 6 would consider Manu, Draymond, Jimmy, Tatum, Embiid and others but that's a ways off.

[Djoker]

Looking at KD, CP3, Harden, Embiid, Nash, and Manu here. Despite narratives, you have players here (i.e., Harden and Embiid) who have been impactful in the playoffs and the regular season. While I tend to hesitate on Manu due to minutes, he certainly has to be looked at as does Draymond soon enough.



https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1KiGykvmgXmDv5ibAtobHui-DfjjRhpBueHrJMD8v3vk/htmlview

I just noticed this post. Two questions/comments.

1) What is the source of this RAPM as in who created it?

2) The confidence intervals have to be absolutely huge here.

[Top10alltime]

I’ve not thought about it all that much and this isn’t an exhaustive list, but I think I’d probably have all of the following above Embiid (in no particular order):

Harden
Chris Paul
Ginobili
Nash
Durant
Anthony Davis
Draymond
Luka
Jimmy Butler
Tatum
Dwight Howard

After that, it gets a bit murkier and maybe I’d actually vote for Embiid. But there’d only be a couple spots left at that point, and guys like Westbrook, McGrady, and Kidd might go above him too. So I’m honestly not even sure I’ll be voting for Embiid at all. Which feels crazy to say, given how good he is when he plays and is healthy, but he’s just a wreck by the playoffs like every prime year, and I have a strong aversion to voting for years like that in a greatest-peaks project. I guess I should probably find my way to voting for 2021 Embiid, since his playoffs wasn’t actually bad that year, but even then he missed like 30% of the regular season and then his team got upset by a completely mediocre team in the playoffs (though to be fair, a lot of that was because of what happened with him off the court—they did solidly outscore the Hawks with him on).

This is ridiculous and a whole lie. This entire list is unjustifiable and there are guys like Harden and Dwight who are bigger playoff dropper than Embiid, including the context Embiid injured makes it worse!

You guys are clearly biased, and cannot analyze Embiid whenever we talk about him. Same with your homeboy Greek.

But when you guys are objective, it's good conversation

[Doctor MJ]

This is ridiculous and a whole lie. This entire list is unjustifiable and there are guys like Harden and Dwight who are bigger playoff dropper than Embiid, including the context Embiid injured makes it worse!

You guys are clearly biased, and cannot analyze Embiid whenever we talk about him. Same with your homeboy Greek.

But when you guys are objective, it's good conversation

Conversations where one guy is asserting that everyone else are biased liars are never good.

You're not going to influence a group of people in the direction you want by coming in and dismissing their thought process. You may think such influence is impossible since everyone here is apparently a Giannis homer, but honestly, you've just imagined that everyone is a Giannis homer so you're starting on the wrong track from the start.

[Doctor MJ]

Looking at KD, CP3, Harden, Embiid, Nash, and Manu here. Despite narratives, you have players here (i.e., Harden and Embiid) who have been impactful in the playoffs and the regular season. While I tend to hesitate on Manu due to minutes, he certainly has to be looked at as does Draymond soon enough.



https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1KiGykvmgXmDv5ibAtobHui-DfjjRhpBueHrJMD8v3vk/htmlview

I just noticed this post. Two questions/comments.

1) What is the source of this RAPM as in who created it?

2) The confidence intervals have to be absolutely huge here.

I believe this is Englemann, who I generally see as a pretty safe bet for doing RAPM pretty appropriately.

With that said, as I've noted before, I've got major concerns about making use of playoff RAPM in my analysis generally.

[Top10alltime]

This is ridiculous and a whole lie. This entire list is unjustifiable and there are guys like Harden and Dwight who are bigger playoff dropper than Embiid, including the context Embiid injured makes it worse!

You guys are clearly biased, and cannot analyze Embiid whenever we talk about him. Same with your homeboy Greek.

But when you guys are objective, it's good conversation

Conversations where one guy is asserting that everyone else are biased liars are never good.

You're not going to influence a group of people in the direction you want by coming in and dismissing their thought process. You may think such influence is impossible since everyone here is apparently a Giannis homer, but honestly, you've just imagined that everyone is a Giannis homer so you're starting on the wrong track from the start.

Keep thinking a lie.

[f4p]

Looking at KD, CP3, Harden, Embiid, Nash, and Manu here. Despite narratives, you have players here (i.e., Harden and Embiid) who have been impactful in the playoffs and the regular season. While I tend to hesitate on Manu due to minutes, he certainly has to be looked at as does Draymond soon enough.



https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1KiGykvmgXmDv5ibAtobHui-DfjjRhpBueHrJMD8v3vk/htmlview

I just noticed this post. Two questions/comments.

1) What is the source of this RAPM as in who created it?

2) The confidence intervals have to be absolutely huge here.

only when the wrong people are ahead of the right people do the confidence intervals tend to expand. otherwise they tend to be ironclad proof of everything.

[f4p]

This is ridiculous and a whole lie. This entire list is unjustifiable and there are guys like Harden and Dwight who are bigger playoff dropper than Embiid, including the context Embiid injured makes it worse!

there is literally no star in nba history who is a bigger playoff dropper than embiid. and i say that as someone who likes embiid. for complete careers (or almost complete), my resiliency spreadsheet has karl malone basically in a class of his own. the number from the calculation isn't really scaled to anything so let's just call it -100 as a baseline for karl malone. harden and giannis basically tie for next to last at -67. and then you have a group of guys like KD, nash, steph, robinson, and stockton in the -50 to -60 range. these are the fairly large playoff fallers. embiid after i think 2023 was at like -180! so he's in a class of his own away from karl malone, who is already way away from everyone else. now is some of it because every time he shows up to the playoffs he has a broken leg or a broken eye ball? sure. but the actual declines are enormous. like out of 416 playoff runs i looked at, 2022 embiid and 2023 embiid were 414th and 415th in resiliency.

[lessthanjake]

I’ve not thought about it all that much and this isn’t an exhaustive list, but I think I’d probably have all of the following above Embiid (in no particular order):

Harden
Chris Paul
Ginobili
Nash
Durant
Anthony Davis
Draymond
Luka
Jimmy Butler
Tatum
Dwight Howard

After that, it gets a bit murkier and maybe I’d actually vote for Embiid. But there’d only be a couple spots left at that point, and guys like Westbrook, McGrady, and Kidd might go above him too. So I’m honestly not even sure I’ll be voting for Embiid at all. Which feels crazy to say, given how good he is when he plays and is healthy, but he’s just a wreck by the playoffs like every prime year, and I have a strong aversion to voting for years like that in a greatest-peaks project. I guess I should probably find my way to voting for 2021 Embiid, since his playoffs wasn’t actually bad that year, but even then he missed like 30% of the regular season and then his team got upset by a completely mediocre team in the playoffs (though to be fair, a lot of that was because of what happened with him off the court—they did solidly outscore the Hawks with him on).

This is ridiculous and a whole lie. This entire list is unjustifiable and there are guys like Harden and Dwight who are bigger playoff dropper than Embiid, including the context Embiid injured makes it worse!

You guys are clearly biased, and cannot analyze Embiid whenever we talk about him. Same with your homeboy Greek.

But when you guys are objective, it's good conversation

Yeah, so I’d say Embiid was definitely far worse in the 2022 and 2023 playoffs than the best years for the players you mentioned. Like not even close. Voting for those years requires voting for a worse playoff performance than I’d vote for any other player.

The same isn’t actually true of 2024 IMO—Embiid actually performed pretty well in the playoffs that year despite health issues (I can’t even remember what was wrong with him that year, but I’m sure there was something). And that’s the year he was incredible when he played in the RS. But he also only played 39 regular season games and his team lost in the first round of the playoffs. I guess *maybe* it’s a viable year to vote for because he actually was genuinely great when he played that year, but not sure I think it makes sense to vote for for 39 regular season games and a first-round series, no matter how well the guy played in those games.

As I said, maybe 2021 is a potential year too. It’s his only prime year that doesn’t have a super glaring problem. But even then he missed a lot of regular season games and lost in the second round to a weak team. So it’s not exactly a banner year that I’d be voting for soon.

[f4p]

I’ve not thought about it all that much and this isn’t an exhaustive list, but I think I’d probably have all of the following above Embiid (in no particular order):

Harden
Chris Paul
Ginobili
Nash
Durant
Anthony Davis
Draymond
Luka
Jimmy Butler
Tatum
Dwight Howard

After that, it gets a bit murkier and maybe I’d actually vote for Embiid. But there’d only be a couple spots left at that point, and guys like Westbrook, McGrady, and Kidd might go above him too. So I’m honestly not even sure I’ll be voting for Embiid at all. Which feels crazy to say, given how good he is when he plays and is healthy, but he’s just a wreck by the playoffs like every prime year, and I have a strong aversion to voting for years like that in a greatest-peaks project. I guess I should probably find my way to voting for 2021 Embiid, since his playoffs wasn’t actually bad that year, but even then he missed like 30% of the regular season and then his team got upset by a completely mediocre team in the playoffs (though to be fair, a lot of that was because of what happened with him off the court—they did solidly outscore the Hawks with him on).

This is ridiculous and a whole lie. This entire list is unjustifiable and there are guys like Harden and Dwight who are bigger playoff dropper than Embiid, including the context Embiid injured makes it worse!

You guys are clearly biased, and cannot analyze Embiid whenever we talk about him. Same with your homeboy Greek.

But when you guys are objective, it's good conversation

Yeah, so I’d say Embiid was definitely far worse in the 2022 and 2023 playoffs than the best years for the players you mentioned. Like not even close. Voting for those years requires voting for a worse playoff performance than I’d vote for any other player.

The same isn’t actually true of 2024 IMO—Embiid actually performed pretty well in the playoffs that year despite health issues (I can’t even remember what was wrong with him that year, but I’m sure there was something). And that’s the year he was incredible when he played in the RS. But he also only played 39 regular season games and his team lost in the first round of the playoffs. I guess *maybe* it’s a viable year to vote for because he actually was genuinely great when he played that year, but not sure I think it makes sense to vote for for 39 regular season games and a first-round series, no matter how well the guy played in those games.

As I said, maybe 2021 is a potential year too. It’s his only prime year that doesn’t have a super glaring problem. But even then he missed a lot of regular season games and lost in the second round to a weak team. So it’s not exactly a banner year that I’d be voting for soon.

2024 embiid was when kuminga (i think) fell on his leg and it was basically injured the rest of the regular season. then he hurt it again against the knicks. but embiid put up good playoff numbers, outscored the knicks by +7 when he was on the court but unfortunately the sixers got outscored by a miniscule 51 points per 100 when embiid was off the court.


edit: i didn't realize until just now that embiid's regular season on/off was so amazing. at least +10 every year of his career except 2020. and his playoff on/off is a ridiculous +17.6 for his career.

[Cavsfansince84]

Yeah, so I’d say Embiid was definitely far worse in the 2022 and 2023 playoffs than the best years for the players you mentioned. Like not even close. Voting for those years requires voting for a worse playoff performance than I’d vote for any other player.

The same isn’t actually true of 2024 IMO—Embiid actually performed pretty well in the playoffs that year despite health issues (I can’t even remember what was wrong with him that year, but I’m sure there was something). And that’s the year he was incredible when he played in the RS. But he also only played 39 regular season games and his team lost in the first round of the playoffs. I guess *maybe* it’s a viable year to vote for because he actually was genuinely great when he played that year, but not sure I think it makes sense to vote for for 39 regular season games and a first-round series, no matter how well the guy played in those games.

As I said, maybe 2021 is a potential year too. It’s his only prime year that doesn’t have a super glaring problem. But even then he missed a lot of regular season games and lost in the second round to a weak team. So it’s not exactly a banner year that I’d be voting for soon.

I think 2021 has to be the year for Embiid despite missing 21 games in the rs which is prob slightly more in a full 82 game season. It's another 2nd loss but he actually sort of played like his rs self in both series and then loses in 7 to a pretty pedestrian Hawks team. After looking at it more closely I'm now inclined to have him in my group next after the 6 who I think are most deserving. Which would have him at something like 19-22 most likely. I think you can definitely make a case for Embiid over Tatum given that he was actually sort of competing with Jokic and Giannis for bpitw status in the 21-23 years while Tatum was never really in that kind of convo, even after winning a ring and leading an atg team. Not that I'll have him over Tatum but there's an argument.

[f4p]

that RAPM thing kind of makes you wonder why steph is considered better than durant in the playoffs. KD beats him in RAPM and easily clears him in box score type data. KD's 6th best PER is better than steph's 2nd. his 7th best WS48 is better than steph's 3rd. his 6th best BPM is basically tied with steph's 3rd. he has a 63 TS% in 5 playoffs with 4 different teams (so not just all the warriors) and i think on a TS+ basis his 5th would be ahead of steph's 2nd. he's ahead in RAPM. he beat out steph for 2 finals mvp's. his 2012 finals is better than any finals steph had until 2022 and even then it still seems better. if wade and bosh are injured in 2012 like kyrie/love in 2015, KD has a title. if harden/kyrie stay as healty as klay/draymond in 2022, KD has another title as he was excellent in the 2021 playoffs. but KD is kind of in the kobe/shaq outgroup i think.

[Cavsfansince84]

that RAPM thing kind of makes you wonder why steph is considered better than durant in the playoffs. KD beats him in RAPM and easily clears him in box score type data. KD's 6th best PER is better than steph's 2nd. his 7th best WS48 is better than steph's 3rd. his 6th best BPM is basically tied with steph's 3rd. he has a 63 TS% in 5 playoffs with 4 different teams (so not just all the warriors) and i think on a TS+ basis his 5th would be ahead of steph's 2nd. he's ahead in RAPM. he beat out steph for 2 finals mvp's. his 2012 finals is better than any finals steph had until 2022 and even then it still seems better. if wade and bosh are injured in 2012 like kyrie/love in 2015, KD has a title. if harden/kyrie stay as healty as klay/draymond in 2022, KD has another title as he was excellent in the 2021 playoffs. but KD is kind of in the kobe/shaq outgroup i think.

Steph's strength is he won without KD twice while KD only comes close in 2012 and 2016(where he sort of chokes to Steph). That means more than what any metrics say about them.

[f4p]

Yeah, so I’d say Embiid was definitely far worse in the 2022 and 2023 playoffs than the best years for the players you mentioned. Like not even close. Voting for those years requires voting for a worse playoff performance than I’d vote for any other player.

The same isn’t actually true of 2024 IMO—Embiid actually performed pretty well in the playoffs that year despite health issues (I can’t even remember what was wrong with him that year, but I’m sure there was something). And that’s the year he was incredible when he played in the RS. But he also only played 39 regular season games and his team lost in the first round of the playoffs. I guess *maybe* it’s a viable year to vote for because he actually was genuinely great when he played that year, but not sure I think it makes sense to vote for for 39 regular season games and a first-round series, no matter how well the guy played in those games.

As I said, maybe 2021 is a potential year too. It’s his only prime year that doesn’t have a super glaring problem. But even then he missed a lot of regular season games and lost in the second round to a weak team. So it’s not exactly a banner year that I’d be voting for soon.

I think 2021 has to be the year for Embiid despite missing 21 games in the rs which is prob slightly more in a full 82 game season. It's another 2nd loss but he actually sort of played like his rs self in both series and then loses in 7 to a pretty pedestrian Hawks team. After looking at it more closely I'm now inclined to have him in my group next after the 6 who I think are most deserving. Which would have him at something like 19-22 most likely. I think you can definitely make a case for Embiid over Tatum given that he was actually sort of competing with Jokic and Giannis for bpitw status in the 21-23 years while Tatum was never really in that kind of convo, even after winning a ring and leading an atg team. Not that I'll have him over Tatum but there's an argument.

i'm digging through embiid's stats in a way i haven't before. in 2019, embiid had a +20.5 ON COURT playoff plus/minus. and didn't get out of the 2nd round! while playing 30 mpg. i mean lots of people have crazy on/offs when their team is minus a million with them off the court, but this is a +20 on court! the list of people with a +20 can't be that long and the list of those who didn't win a title must be incredible short. anyone have a way of looking that up?

edit: i haven't even posted this but i'm going to already add an edit. in the final 5 games against the raptors that year, embiid has a game where he was +17 on court, and lost! and in game 7, he was famously +10 in 45:12 of game time, but lost because philly was -12 in 2:48 with him off the court. and all of that pales in comparison to game 6, where embiid was +40 (!!) in 35 minutes and the sixers were -29 in 13 minutes!

in the finals 5 games, embiid was +82 on the court and his team lost 3 times! like literally, has that ever happened to anyone else? he's +82 in 35 mpg with him on, -93 in 13 mpg with him off. an incredible +22.5 per 48 on and -68.7 per 48 off, but a +91.2 on/off in the 5 most important playoff games of his career probably. he is snakebit beyond belief.