Why did the Jazz accomplish so little from 88-95?

[Baller 24]

So offensively weak (in comparison to top offensive teams in the league) Jazz supporting cast in late 80s and early 90s isn’t a fact?

But the thing is, there were countless times where they were a 50+ and 60+ win teams, they were carried by two guys that are supposedly franchise players, Eaton was the perfect complimentary guy to put in the front court with Malone, they were one of the biggest and best powerhouse defenses in the league. And in that regard, you can't blame it on the cast, because the two franchise players are the ones carrying the burden on their shoulders, they are the guys that are carrying the team throughout the season to countless 50+ and 60+ wins.

Take the T-Mac/Yao Rockets for example. Looking at the stat sheet in game eliminating games, it's pretty evident that both superstars showed up, but the supporting cast was god awful in both '05 and '07. Yet, the blame is obviously going to go to both of them, who in the end didn't do enough, or could have done more..same situation here.

[lorak]

So offensively weak (in comparison to top offensive teams in the league) Jazz supporting cast in late 80s and early 90s isn’t a fact?

But the thing is, there were countless times where they were a 50+ and 60+ win teams, they were carried by two guys that are supposedly franchise players, Eaton was the perfect complimentary guy to put in the front court with Malone, they were one of the biggest and best powerhouse defenses in the league. And in that regard, you can't blame it on the cast, because the two franchise players are the ones carrying the burden on their shoulders,

I’ll use example to show my point, ok?
Lets look at 1989 Jazz. They lost to Warriors. But Malone scored 30.7 PPG on .574 TS% (+16.3 TRB) and Stockton 27.3 PPG on .601 TS% (+13.7 APG) so I ask you what more could they do? It’s their fault that the rest of the team shoot below .500 and two main scorers from supporting cast even below .400?! (Bailey and Hansen) Eaton had nice % but he also had only 17 FGA in entire series so he definitely wasn’t offensive option.

[Doctor MJ]

And if you really believe in “there should be no excuses” explain how it’s possible that during five consecutive seasons Hakeem Olajuwon four times can’t get past first round and once even didn’t advance to playoffs? He wasn’t that good? Or why Steve Nash never won title? Wasn’t that good? I think you’ll bring up excuses immediately in cases of this players…

I think this is getting toward a better response. It's not enough to simply say "Hakeem won, Malone & Stockton didn't". Most years Hakeem didn't get it done, and when he did, he didn't have to go against teams as good as the two Bulls teams the Jazz lost to. The line between winners & losers, when losers themselves are winning most of their games is not so hard and fast.

[Doctor MJ]

I ask myself how a former MVPs like Nash and O'neal (still in a 18ppg/8) with Amare for 53 games... with Richardson, Hill or Barbosa who are above the averages players of the league missed the playoff last year...

Well this is pretty easy: Good overall talent that doesn't fit together well, disappoints. The fact that the Suns were better before & after Shaq hammers that in.

[drza]

So offensively weak (in comparison to top offensive teams in the league) Jazz supporting cast in late 80s and early 90s isn’t a fact?

But the thing is, there were countless times where they were a 50+ and 60+ win teams, they were carried by two guys that are supposedly franchise players, Eaton was the perfect complimentary guy to put in the front court with Malone, they were one of the biggest and best powerhouse defenses in the league. And in that regard, you can't blame it on the cast, because the two franchise players are the ones carrying the burden on their shoulders,

I’ll use example to show my point, ok?
Lets look at 1989 Jazz. They lost to Warriors. But Malone scored 30.7 PPG on .574 TS% (+16.3 TRB) and Stockton 27.3 PPG on .601 TS% (+13.7 APG) so I ask you what more could they do? It’s their fault that the rest of the team shoot below .500 and two main scorers from supporting cast even below .400?! (Bailey and Hansen) Eaton had nice % but he also had only 17 FGA in entire series so he definitely wasn’t offensive option.

I think the OP is a fair question to ask, considering that there were TWO of them, and both of them are argued to be among the best players in NBA history. In other words, pick one of them (say Malone). If Malone's supporting cast includes one of the top-30 players in NBA history, then BY DEFINITION Malone has an excellent supporting cast regardless of the other starters. So if Malone is going to be considered a top-15 player in NBA history it is fair to ask why he never won a title despite being surrounded by an excellent supporting cast (and historically great coach) for more than a decade. At some point, IMO, you have to begin to question whether it's a given that everyone was as great as their rep.

As for the specific example of the Warriors in 1989, yes, Malone and Stockton still have to be held accountable because, again, there are TWO of them. And for franchise level players, let alone top-30 of all time players, they have more responsibilities than just scoring + 1 other category. Part of their greatness is that they are considered to be great on both sides of the ball...I've read several times in this and other thread that their defense is underrated, and both were All Defense in that time period (Malone in '88, Stockton in '89). So for the Warriors to just torch the Jazz defense in that series, both Stockton and Malone have to partially answer for that.

Likewise, Stockton is considered the greatest playmaker in NBA history. That isn't just about having a bunch of assists, it's about getting good and easy shots for your teammates. So for Bailey and Griffin, two secondary players that were able to combine for 33+ points on good shooting percentages in the regular season to be shut down by an average defense...yeah, Stockton has to partially answer for that. It was his team role to get guys like Bailey and Griffin good shots, to get them going in the offense, and if he wasn't able to do that then it doesn't matter if he got 13 assists per game to Malone he wasn't performing his chief task to it's best.

[lorak]

Part of their greatness is that they are considered to be great on both sides of the ball...I've read several times in this and other thread that their defense is underrated, and both were All Defense in that time period (Malone in '88, Stockton in '89). So for the Warriors to just torch the Jazz defense in that series, both Stockton and Malone have to partially answer for that

I advise you to watch that series. And if you can’t here’s food for thought: Mark Eaton was anchoring Jazz defense. In regular season he had 3.8 blocks per game. Guess what happened in playoffs? He still have been playing many minutes (+30) but in ENTIRE SERIES he had TWO (2) BLOCKS.

S o again - Malone scored 30.7 PPG on .574 TS% (+16.3 TRB) and Stockton 27.3 PPG on .601 TS% (+13.7 APG). What more could they do? Because for example Stockton provide good looks for Bailey or Hansen but how it is his fault that they missed open shots? Explain that, please. In fact Stockton’s 13.7 APG in that series are even more impressive if we realize how bad other Jazz players played, because not every Stockton’s assists was to Malone.

[bastillon]

I think this is getting toward a better response. It's not enough to simply say "Hakeem won, Malone & Stockton didn't". Most years Hakeem didn't get it done, and when he did, he didn't have to go against teams as good as the two Bulls teams the Jazz lost to. The line between winners & losers, when losers themselves are winning most of their games is not so hard and fast.

I think that line could be seen easily for anyone watching Jazz-Rockets in '94 and '95. Hakeem dominated those series. also how can you compare Jazz disappointing results to Hakeem's ? Jazz were simply underachieving in the playoffs, Hakeem had a bad supporting cast and when he got right players, he won back2back titles, despite being past his true peak ('88-'91).

[Doctor MJ]

Hakeem had a bad supporting cast and when he got right players, he won back2back titles, despite being past his true peak ('88-'91).

Taken aback by this, I don't agree with it at all. It's not even the case that Hakeem had clearly bigger individual numbers in those early year, and if you take a look at how his team did without him in '90-91, you can see he was very clearly not dragging a team of nobodies to contention at the time.

[Mayap]

I think this is getting toward a better response. It's not enough to simply say "Hakeem won, Malone & Stockton didn't". Most years Hakeem didn't get it done, and when he did, he didn't have to go against teams as good as the two Bulls teams the Jazz lost to. The line between winners & losers, when losers themselves are winning most of their games is not so hard and fast.

I think that line could be seen easily for anyone watching Jazz-Rockets in '94 and '95. Hakeem dominated those series. also how can you compare Jazz disappointing results to Hakeem's ? Jazz were simply underachieving in the playoffs, Hakeem had a bad supporting cast and when he got right players, he won back2back titles, despite being past his true peak ('88-'91).

The jazz underperformed against the Rockets in 94? Now i've heard everything. You obviously didn't even watch the series. The reason the jazz lost had everything to do with the scorching 3 point shooting of the rockets, the jazz didn't stand a chance, I don't care if Michael Jordan was also on the team.

[bastillon]

sure, 3pt shooters, right:





actually I have all of this series on my PC as I'm editing this post right now.

[bastillon]

Taken aback by this, I don't agree with it at all. It's not even the case that Hakeem had clearly bigger individual numbers in those early year, and if you take a look at how his team did without him in '90-91, you can see he was very clearly not dragging a team of nobodies to contention at the time.

I'm not saying his teammates were terrible, we're not talking about Kevin Garnett and the Timberwolves here, but his teammates were only sufficiently good for making the playoffs with them. this was by no means contention material. Otis Thorpe, Kenny Smith, good players definitely starters on almost any team, but they didn't really have a star power or great depth to compete with TOP teams in the league. also this talent was a bad fit, I wrote about this in the past, Houston had terrible shooters and teams were sending couple of guys to guard Hakeem. they didn't have to double team, he was often guarded by two players, because they could let those chuckers shoot outside jumpers all game long. Hakeem playing better past 30 years of age was a matter of: Rudy Tomjanovic, a competent coach; shooters; better depth. Hakeem actually regressed bc he didn't possess the same athletic ability.

[Doctor MJ]

Taken aback by this, I don't agree with it at all. It's not even the case that Hakeem had clearly bigger individual numbers in those early year, and if you take a look at how his team did without him in '90-91, you can see he was very clearly not dragging a team of nobodies to contention at the time.

I'm not saying his teammates were terrible, we're not talking about Kevin Garnett and the Timberwolves here, but his teammates were only sufficiently good for making the playoffs with them. this was by no means contention material. Otis Thorpe, Kenny Smith, good players definitely starters on almost any team, but they didn't really have a star power or great depth to compete with TOP teams in the league. also this talent was a bad fit, I wrote about this in the past, Houston had terrible shooters and teams were sending couple of guys to guard Hakeem. they didn't have to double team, he was often guarded by two players, because they could let those chuckers shoot outside jumpers all game long. Hakeem playing better past 30 years of age was a matter of: Rudy Tomjanovic, a competent coach; shooters; better depth. Hakeem actually regressed bc he didn't possess the same athletic ability.

You didn't address this so I'll reiterate: Go look at how the Rockets did in '90-91 without Hakeem. They did quite well.

[Mayap]

I never said Hakeem wasn't a huge factor as well. It was Hakeem and all of the 3 point shooting. The jazz didn't stand a chance.

[FJS]

Somebody can explain how the multitalented Sacramento Kings from 99-05 (Divac, Webber, Stojakovic, Crhistie, J.Williams/M.Bibby) acomplish less than Jazz from 88 to 95???
They exited 3 times in first round (99, 00 and 05) and only went to WCF in 02.

Altough they fall in 93 and 95, from 92 to 98 Utah jazz made 5 WCF and two finals.

[KOBE_PAUER]

Suporting cast was weak.
It's not a secret that SLC it's not a place where players want to go. They most of Jazz players since they are in Utah are/were Utah Jazz picks.
So for years Jazz have played without FA and played only with thier picks... So it's difficult to make a great suporting cast with that.

Don't blame the supporting cast, Tim Duncan did it, Hakeem did it (and on the way beat the Jazz in '94 and '95), Rick Barry did it, LeBron almost did it. Malone was great---flat out dominant, but if Stockton is as GREAT as his numbers state, there should be no excuses, they should have won a tittle.

Steve Nash is an all time great, and your Phoenix Suns never had played a single NBA final. What about that?

[microfib4thewin]

Somebody can explain how the multitalented Sacramento Kings from 99-05 (Divac, Webber, Stojakovic, Crhistie, J.Williams/M.Bibby) acomplish less than Jazz from 88 to 95???
They exited 3 times in first round (99, 00 and 05) and only went to WCF in 02.

Altough they fall in 93 and 95, from 92 to 98 Utah jazz made 5 WCF and two finals.

I am not sure why you keep using the Kings as an example. No one considers any of their players as an all time great, even on peak play Webber is equal or worse than Stockton depending on your perspective. Kings best year was really from 01-03 when Peja started playing like an allstar and before Webber blew his knees. In 01, they lost to the Lakers who had one of the most dominant playoff run in history. In 02, well, that opens a can of worms when anyone mentions game 6, but ignore the possibility that the game was rigged, the Kings lost because they couldn't close out during clutch time. In 03, they lost against a Mavs team with a Dirk, Nash, Finley, and Van Exel. It was also that series where Webber blew his knees.

The Jazz had a HOF coach in Sloan, a top 15-20 player in Malone, and a top 30-40 player in Stockton. Yet, in that decade and a half where both players are at their peak, they only managed their first Finals appearance after 10 years. Something doesn't add up, to be able to work together for so long with no injury to either player and they still come up short. Either way, someone is being overrated here.

[dalekjazz]

Sloan is somewhat overrated as a coach. Malone came up short in the clutch. The Jazz had the worst starting small forward in the early part of the 1990's. Their bench was very weak with no competent back up to Stockton. During the 1994-1995 season when the Jazz won 60 games in the regular season, they had an injury during the regular season which cost them greatly in the playoffs. Felton Spencer, though unspectacular gave the Jazz a physical presence at center. When he went down with a season ending injury the Jazz had to rely on over the hill James Donaldson and Tom Chambers to matchup against Hakeem, which was a severe mismatch. In a close series which the Rockets won 3-2, and came back in the fourth quarter of the fifth game to win by four points, the physical and young Felton Spencer may have made the difference guarding Hakeem.

[dalekjazz]

As for the specific example of the Warriors in 1989, yes, Malone and Stockton still have to be held accountable because, again, there are TWO of them. And for franchise level players, let alone top-30 of all time players, they have more responsibilities than just scoring + 1 other category. Part of their greatness is that they are considered to be great on both sides of the ball...I've read several times in this and other thread that their defense is underrated, and both were All Defense in that time period (Malone in '88, Stockton in '89). So for the Warriors to just torch the Jazz defense in that series, both Stockton and Malone have to partially answer for that.

[/quote]


The Warriors were a terrible matchup for the Jazz that year, similar to the Warriors against the Mavericks a couple of years ago. Coincidentally the coach was Don Nelson both times. The Warriors used Manute Bol, a nonfactor on offense who was hanging out in the perimeter, to pull Eaton out of the middle, negating Eaton's defensive effectiveness. There was no zone defense at that time. The Warriors used their speed, quickness, and outside shooting to beat Utah's size. Chris Mullin killed the Jazz with his outside shooting and nobody on the Jazz could slow him down. Bailey couldn't keep up with him. Besides Stockton the Jazz lacked ball handlers and guards who could create their own shots.

[Warspite]

The Jazz in the playoffs are a differant animal. The Jazz run basicly teh same play and there offense can be disrupted. The refs alow you to play a bit more physical on defense and when given time to gameplan for you can disrupt Sloans offense witch is maybe the most predictable least innovative in the NBA. In the end many times the jazz have a hard time executing and need a athletic player to make a play and teh Jazz have lacked that player that can do that.

I dont blame Stockton and Malones lack of success on them as much as I do on the Front Office. Lets be honest here Stockton and Malone were realy lucky picks and very much overachieved there draft forcasts. The Jazz GMs for the most part were very incompetant in building a team and only because they had 2 of the top 30 players of alltime were they even able to win 50 games. You look at the drafts from 86-96 and you find many mis oppertunities to build a team around these 2. Then you add Sloan who hates iso players and you have a formual for mediocrity.

Put Stockton and Malone in a Eastern conferance franchise with less rigid coach and a good GM and you have alot more success. Realy Thurl Bailey & Blue Edwards as #2 options is not a formula for success.

[sp6r=underrated]

The reason why I used the 1988-1995 window is that this is the time period Stockton fans were pointing to when many of us criticized his peak and his dominance. During these years he was playing with Karl Malone who was playing at a top 20 all time level. Their peaks nearly perfectly overlapped. While Malone was slightly more dominant in the late 90s he was still playing at an elite level

If Stockton really was a top 30 player all time the Jazz should have accomplished a lot more. Here are the Jazz stats from this era.

53 wins per season
4 First round exits
2 Semi-finals exits
2 conference final appearances.

I’m going to use the realgm top 100 list (viewtopic.php?f=64&t=830301&st=0&sk=t&sd=a) to prove my point about what typically happens when two top 30 players play together. I’m going to ignore seasons when one of the player was clearly past his peak (I’ll use MVP voting, All NBA teams as criteria here). To qualify both players must have made the top 30.

The beginning season will be when both players either made an all/NBA team or received MVP votes. The end of their run together will be considered the last season for one player to receive MVP votes or All-NBA selections.

I will not address injuries in this comparison or seasons when an all time great player returns to the NBA after playing minor league baseball out of grief for his father‘s death or because David Stern secretly suspended that player for gambling. I also will treat seasons were the top 30 player was acquired in a trade as if the top 30 player played there for the entire season. This actually favors the Jazz because many of these players had seasons were 1 player was injured during the playoffs.

I’ll also try to identify seasons in which their was three or more top 30 players on the roster based on the above criteria. Also seasons are identified by the final year. Example 1985/1986 will be called the 1986 season. I round up or down on the win total. For the lockout season I will project out the won-loss total to an 82 game schedule.

The criteria above is not perfect obviously but it does make the comparison objective.

1. Michael Jordan played with one player ranked in the top 30, Scottie Pippen based on All-NBA teams and MVP voting for 6 seasons. During those years the bulls won 5 championships. The Bulls won an average of 62 games.

2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. He played with two top 25 players when he was still at or near his peak: a post-prime Oscar Robertson and a pre-prime/prime Magic Johnson. His teams won 4 championships. The Bucks during the one season Oscar made an All-NBA team or received MVP votes won 66 games and a title.

From 1981-1986 he played with Magic. 1981 was the beginning run for them as that was the first year Magic received MVP votes and 1986 was the last year Kareem ever made an All-NBA team or received MVP votes. The Lakers won 2 Championships and made the finals two other times. LA won an average of just under 58 wins a season.

3. Bill Russell played with two top 30 player all time. Bob Cousy for 7 full seasons and John Havlicek for seven full seasons.

The beginning season of the Russell Cousy combo was 1957 and ended after 1962 with the arrival of Havlicek. The Celtics won 5 championships in 6 years and an average of 54 games.

The Russell/Cousy/Havlicek trio won a championship and 58 games.

The beginning season of Russell/Havlicek was 1964 when Cousy left and the ending season was 1969 when Russell retired. The Celtics won 6 championships and an average of 56 games.

4. Wilt Chamberlain played with two top 30 players: Jerry West and Elgin Baylor. In 1969 both West and Baylor were top 30 players all time. From 1970 to 1973 he played with Jerry West.

The Chamberlain/West/Baylor trio played for a Laker team in 1969 that won 55 games and lost in the finals.

The Lakers averaged 56 wins over the 4 seasons of the West/Chamberlain combination. They won 1 championship and made the finals three time

5. Magic Johnson (discussed in the Jabbar paragraph)

6. Larry Bird never played with a player in the top 30.

7. Hakeem Olajuwon had two teammate in the top 30: Clyde Drexler and Charles Barkley. The 1995 season was the last year Clyde won make an All-NBA team/receive MVP votes. The rockets won 47 games and an NBA championship

Olajuwon and Barkley played 1 season together when Barkley was a top 30 player all time. The rockets won 57 games and were eliminated in the WCF.

8. Shaquille O’Neal played with one top 30 teammate: pre-prime Kobe Bryant. They won three
championships and made the finals 4 times together during the 6 seasons they spent together. The lakers won an average of 56 wins.

9. Tim Duncan played with one top 30 player: David Robinson. They played together from 1998-2001. 2001 was the last season the admiral made an all-NBA team/received MVP votes. They won one championship and averaged 57 wins a season

10. Julius Erving during his NBA career played with one top 30 player, Moses Malone. They played together as top 30 players from 1983 which was when Malone was acquired to 1985 which was the last season Erving received MVP votes. They won 1 championship and averaged 58 wins.

11. Jerry West played with two top 30 players Wilt Chamberlain and Elgin Baylor. The Chamberlain combination is discussed in the Chamberlain paragraph. West and Baylor played eight seasons together from 1961 to 1968. The lakers averaged 46 wins. The Lakers made the finals 5 times.

12. Oscar Robertson played a total of one season when he still received mvp votes or made an all nba team. The Bucks that year won the title and 66 games.

13. Moses Malone played with two top 30 players: Julius Erving and Charles Barkley. Erving is discussed in the Malone section. In 1986 Barkley made his first All-NBA team. The 76ers won 54 games.

14. John Havlicek is discussed in Russell paragraph

15. Karl Malone (Discussed above)

16. Bob Pettit did not play with a top 30 player.

17. David Robinson is discussed in the Tim Duncan section.

18. Kobe Bryant is discussed in the Shaq section.

19. Walt Frazier did not play with a top 30 player.

20. Kevin Garnett did not play with a top 30 player.

21. Elgin Baylor is discussed in the Chamberlain and West paragraphs.

22. George Mikan did not play with a top 30 player.

23. Charles Barkley is discussed in the Erving Malone sections.

24. Rick Barry did not play with a top 30 player.

25. Isiah Thomas did not play with a top 30 player.

26. Scottie Pippen is discussed in the Jordan section.

27. John Stockton is discussed above.

28. Patrick Ewing did not play with a top 30 player.

29. Bob Cousy is discussed in the Russell section.

30. Clyde Drexler is discussed in the Olajuwon section.

TOP 30 Combinations
1. Jordan/Pippen: 5 Championships in 6 seasons. Average win total 62
2. Jabbar/Robertson: 1 Championship in 1 season. Average win total: 66 wins
3. Jabbar/Magic: 2 Championships and 4 final appearances in 6 seasons. Average win total: 58 wins
4. Russell/Cousy: 5 championships and 6 final appearances in 6 seasons. Average win total: 54 wins
5. Russell/Cousy/Havlicek : 1 championship in 1 season. Win total: 58
6. Russell/Havlicek: 5 Championships in 6 seasons. Average win total 56 wins
7. Chamberlain/West/Baylor: 1 final appearance in 1 season. Average win total: 55 wins
8. Chamberlain/West: 1 Championship and 3 final appearances in 4 seasons. Average win total: 56 wins
9. Olajuwon/Drexler 1 Championship in 1 season. 47 Wins
10. Olajuwon/Barkley: No final appearances in 1 season. 57 Wins
11. O’Neal/Bryant: 3 Championships and 4 final appearances in 6 seasons. Average win total: 56 wins
12. Duncan/Robinson: 1 Championship in 4 seasons. Average win total: 57 wins
13. West/Baylor: 5 final appearances in 8 seasons. Average win total: 46 wins
14. Erving/M. Malone: 1 championship in 3 seasons. Average win total: 58 wins
15. M. Malone/Barkley: No final appearances in 1 season. Win total 54

Look at the result. There have been 15 different combinations of top 30 players. 11 of those teams won championships. The West Baylor combo made the finals 5 times. The Chamberlain/West/Baylor made the finals and lost in a seventh game. Olajuwon/Barkley and M. Malone/Barkley only had one season to work together.

The vast majority of these combinations had a much smaller window of opportunity than the Jazz did during Stockton’s peak. Furthermore, a lot of these players had peaks that did not overlap nearly as well as Malone/Stockton.

In short, Stockton fans should stop trying to claim he was a dominate player and screaming about his stats from the late 80s to early 90s. The Jazz success rate during the time period when Stockton was allegedly at his peak is far short of the results you typically see when two top 30 players are playing together.