Better Athlete MJ or LeBron?

[prophet_of_rage]

My only confusion here is why strength is not considered an important aspect of athleticism. It seems funny that all the stuff that MJ is good at counts for basketball, but none of the stuff where Bron excels is relevant. All of their atheltic gifts are near equal and Bron is heavier, taller and stronger. What are we talking about? Bron is the better run/jump athlete once you consider his physical frame.

[NO-KG-AI]

They aren't "NEar equal" though, that's the misconception everyone gets into. Mike could blow past any defender of any size with pure speed, and be at the rim for easy looks. LeBron has great first step, for HIS SIZE, Jordan has arguably the best first step, regardless of size. LeBron can't bull over everything 100% of the time, and he can't outspeed everyone all the time...Jordan was able to skate past anyone, it didn't matter how quick or strong they were.

There is only so much you can do with strength from the perimeter, when a guy can stay in front of you.

[Johnny Firpo]

Did you watch that game?Oh my god!
LBJ catch the ball from a bad pass by Mo but he jumped in the sky..Fans also admired that.
It's difficult to say who has the better leap.It's very close.

No, i didn't watch, and didn't even see a video of this particular play. I don't doubt he jumped really high, or that it was a great play, it probably was, and obviously, LeBron is a great athlete. I would even agree he's phisically more gifted. But i also think - with many others in this thread - that MJ was a better "basketball athlete".

[Jordan23Forever]

Jordan is the only player in history I've ever seen at any size who could face up any defender -- bigger, equal size, or taller -- and beat them off the dribble just by picking a direction and exploding past them. He did this hundreds of times in his career, and you'll rarely see any other player even able to do it at all. Even the fastest guys today like Wade/Lebron need screens and/or fancy ballhandling to get their defender off balance first in order to get by them. Not Jordan.

[INKtastic]

Jordan is the only player in history I've ever seen at any size who could face up any defender -- bigger, equal size, or taller -- and beat them off the dribble just by picking a direction and exploding past them. He did this hundreds of times in his career, and you'll rarely see any other player even able to do it at all. Even the fastest guys today like Wade/Lebron need screens and/or fancy ballhandling to get their defender off balance first in order to get by them. Not Jordan.

LeBron doesn't get a screen because he needs it to beat his man off the dribble, he does that without a screen all of the time. He gets a screen to set up the easy pick and roll or pick and pop baskets for the player setting the pick.

[Harry Palmer]

Jordan is the only player in history I've ever seen at any size who could face up any defender -- bigger, equal size, or taller -- and beat them off the dribble just by picking a direction and exploding past them. He did this hundreds of times in his career, and you'll rarely see any other player even able to do it at all. Even the fastest guys today like Wade/Lebron need screens and/or fancy ballhandling to get their defender off balance first in order to get by them. Not Jordan.

Iverson?

[Jordan23Forever]

Iverson?

Nope. I think it's the fact that MJ had an Iverson-like (or better) first step, but was 6" taller, which also made it a long step. Iverson used a lot of fancy ballhandling to get guys off balance in order to get past them. Jordan didn't need that nearly as much.

LeBron doesn't get a screen because he needs it to beat his man off the dribble, he does that without a screen all of the time. He gets a screen to set up the easy pick and roll or pick and pop baskets for the player setting the pick.

Right. Can you post a video of Lebron getting the ball, facing up before he dribbles, and without any ballhandling or foot fakes just picking a direction and exploding past his defender who was ready for him (i.e., not on a closeout or some such)?

[Kosar86]

where does anyone get Jordan was a much better leaper? They both can/could dunk from the foul line. According to online stats, Jordan had a slightly larger vertical leap - 48" vs 44" but LeBron is 2 to 3 inches taller and has a 2" wider wing span, so they both get basically to the same height while LeBron is carrying 40 more lbs vs peak jumping Jordan, which was before he bulked up for his 7th season.

Here's the chart I found

http://vertcoach.com/highest-vertical-leap.html

here's another chart that says they both had the same 44" vertical leap

http://www.listafterlist.com/tabid/57/l ... story.aspx

Another place said Jordan was measured at 48" in college, but 42" early in his bulls career. LeBron is pretty consistently listed at 44". For speed, there are also reports that Jordan ran a 4.3 40 while LeBron ran a 4.4 40.

As for better athlete, I'm not quite sure how to pick one over the other. it's basically the same degree of athleticism in a different frame.

One thing about college performance stats is that they are completely untrustworthy.

How many 5-star high football recruits are proclaimed to run 4.3 40s and also do that in college....only to run 4.5+ at the combine.

[delonte]

Iverson?

Nope. I think it's the fact that MJ had an Iverson-like (or better) first step, but was 6" taller, which also made it a long step. Iverson used a lot of fancy ballhandling to get guys off balance in order to get past them. Jordan didn't need that nearly as much.

LeBron doesn't get a screen because he needs it to beat his man off the dribble, he does that without a screen all of the time. He gets a screen to set up the easy pick and roll or pick and pop baskets for the player setting the pick.

Right. Can you post a video of Lebron getting the ball, facing up before he dribbles, and without any ballhandling or foot fakes just picking a direction and exploding past his defender who was ready for him (i.e., not on a closeout or some such)?

I agree that MJ had a quicker first step, but lets not act like LeBron doesnt have a quick one either.

just off the top of my head: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NohZ1S42tFU

[Harry Palmer]

Nope. I think it's the fact that MJ had an Iverson-like (or better) first step, but was 6" taller, which also made it a long step. Iverson used a lot of fancy ballhandling to get guys off balance in order to get past them. Jordan didn't need that nearly as much.

Come on. MJ had an incredible step for his size, no doubt, but AI was quicker by a reasonable margin, and I say this as one of the biggest AI haters alive.

First off, AI was generally facing quicker defenders. Secondly, until he aged, I don't even remember him having to do too much ballhandling to lose HIS man, he was usually doing it once he got into the second line, and/or to set the help up. I mean, I HATED the fact that he would chose to do this, but there is no doubt in my mind that he got by his man with a blow-by most of the time and was using other things to try and take on the rest of the team.

AI's first step was the quickest I've seen, and other guys who are close (Francis, Marbury, etc.) were all quicker than MJ. It's to his credit that he can even be compared with them at his length, but I think you are getting into hyperbole to suggest he's even quicker.

[NO-KG-AI]

Francis and Marbury weren't quicker with their first step.

I agree on AI.

[Harry Palmer]

Francis and Marbury weren't quicker with their first step.

I agree on AI.

Not sure I agree, but I actually meant to be a little more qualified with that part, in terms of 'the guys I think are between them' meaning more that they were close to MJ, not as close to AI, as opposed to emphasizing their being quicker than MJ, if you get me.

[Jordan23Forever]

just off the top of my head: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NohZ1S42tFU

That actually illustrates my point, because Lebron couldn't get past his defender there at all. He didn't clear him. He never got his head and shoulders past the defender until the defender got picked off closer to the rim and Lebron found a seam.

AI's first step was the quickest I've seen, and other guys who are close (Francis, Marbury, etc.) were all quicker than MJ. It's to his credit that he can even be compared with them at his length, but I think you are getting into hyperbole to suggest he's even quicker.

I don't think it's hyperbole at all. Iverson may be quicker than MJ, but we're talking first step here, which has to do with acceleration. And to be honest with you, the only player since MJ who I've felt matches his acceleration from a stand-still or while changing pace is young Marbury ('98-'03). Marbury used to DETONATE past guys just like MJ (I've actually mentioned this several times over the years, that he's the most explosive player I've seen since MJ). Clearly more explosive in that respect than Iverson. I never got that sense watching AI where he was at 0 then at 60 in the blink of an eye. Not like Marbury and, yes, Jordan. Steve Francis? Come on...he's not even in this conversation.

[HouMac]

I consider LeBron a superior athlete to MJ, but he indeed lacks a great first step. Maybe even a good one. He gets isolated on either wing countless times and the baseline drive is always available, yet he NEVER takes it. It's because he lacks great standstill explosiveness(relatively speaking). That is part of the reason why he tends to over-dribble. He needs to gather some momentum through dribbling before he can explode. Which is why he's more of a top-of-the-key/pick-n-roll player rather than someone who operates from the elbow. Great first step guys on the other hand(MJ, T-Mac, VC, Kobe, 'Melo etc) operate from the elbow/triple threat.

As far as MJ goes, he arguably has the greatest first step in NBA history. And yes, that includes AI, who's certainly superior to MJ overall quickness wise, but he couldn't explode from standstill like MJ. MJ's still the quickest I've ever seen as far as players around his height are concerned. I'm talking 6'5-6'7 here. Wade's quicker than MJ and ridiculously explosive too, but he's 6'4.

[delonte]

just off the top of my head: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NohZ1S42tFU

That actually illustrates my point, because Lebron couldn't get past his defender there at all. He didn't clear him. He never got his head and shoulders past the defender until the defender got picked off closer to the rim and Lebron found a seam.

AI's first step was the quickest I've seen, and other guys who are close (Francis, Marbury, etc.) were all quicker than MJ. It's to his credit that he can even be compared with them at his length, but I think you are getting into hyperbole to suggest he's even quicker.

I don't think it's hyperbole at all. Iverson may be quicker than MJ, but we're talking first step here, which has to do with acceleration. And to be honest with you, the only player since MJ who I've felt matches his acceleration from a stand-still or while changing pace is young Marbury ('98-'03). Marbury used to DETONATE past guys just like MJ (I've actually mentioned this several times over the years, that he's the most explosive player I've seen since MJ). Clearly more explosive in that respect than Iverson. I never got that sense watching AI where he was at 0 then at 60 in the blink of an eye. Not like Marbury and, yes, Jordan. Steve Francis? Come on...he's not even in this conversation.

Not sure what you mean than. this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqD-JoDgKao

[MSGBallerz]

Lebron although its not by as much as people think.

[shawngoat23]

A bit off-topic, but since PMs are disabled, I wanted to address this to J23F.

You mentioned you have a lot of DVDs of Michael Jordan's games. Is there any place online that sells these? I'd really like to be able to look at more footage of young MJ.

[Jordan23Forever]

A bit off-topic, but since PMs are disabled, I wanted to address this to J23F.

You mentioned you have a lot of DVDs of Michael Jordan's games. Is there any place online that sells these? I'd really like to be able to look at more footage of young MJ.

Yes, there are websites with hundreds of games available (hundreds from MJ's career, as well as dozens of games from Magic/Wilt/Bird/Kobe etc.), but I hesitate to post the url here for obvious reasons.

[studcrackers]

you arent gonna get banned for posting the websites, post them b/c im curious too

[dballislife]

jordan better athlete, bron is stronger