RealGM 50 Highest Peaks Project Thread

[Doctor MJ]

As always these projects lead to great discussions. I am reading through some of the topics and I would like a clarification about the voting rules. Who would have won in the following scenario

Player A (2004) 5 Votes

Player B (2000) 4 Votes

Player B (2001) 4 Votes

Would Player B have won because he received more votes or would Player A have won because his single season received more votes?

Player A would win

Correct, however, people were allowed to alter their votes. So what you'd typically find is that the Player B supporters would eventually settle on a single year to champion. This didn't always happen though.

[JordansBulls]

Looking back it is interesting the separation that Oscar and West had in peaks. I think most have them neck and neck overall.

[jals]

So now that the season is over - where do we stand on Lebron's 2013 season? (1) Is it better than 2012 or 2009 (currently 2009 still considered his peak according to page 1), (2) if so, where does it rank all-time?

[JordansBulls]

So now that the season is over - where do we stand on Lebron's 2013 season? (1) Is it better than 2012 or 2009 (currently 2009 still considered his peak according to page 1), (2) if so, where does it rank all-time?

Probably 2012, 2013, 2009

[Gregoire]

If the new poll should be created after Lebrons 2013 year?

[Langdon Alger]

Huh? Where has Durant taken OKC? Where did he ever take an average team? Dude is paired with Westbrook, had Harden off the bench(now KMart), and had Ibaka/Thabo holding down the defense.

Kobe took a good team to a 11-1 playoff record, 3 Finals, 2 titles during his prime. Wade took a good Heat to a title in 2006. Tmac....well I agree Durant is better than Tmac.

Durant's scoring efficiency comes back to Earth when his uAST% FGs shoot up to the level of Kobe, Wade. He's no where near the playmaker as them, and not the defender either.

Durant just carried an OKC team to the 2nd round without a second option, or 3rd option for that matter as everyone on his team played like trash.

Has Wade/Kobe/T-Mac ever made it past the 1st round without a 2nd option? I.e. Shaq, Gasol? Exactly.

I don't really care about the rest of you guys' argument, but just wanted to clear up that:

Wade made it to the 2nd round with Odom as his 2nd option his rookie year and took the 1st seed Pacers to 6 games.

[ardee]

Why is this unstickied?

[Gregoire]

Right now my top-10 looks like:
1. MJ 91 ( equal to MJ 90)
2. Shaq 00/ Wilt 67
3. Lebron 13
4 Hakeem 93
5 Bird 86
6 Kareem 77
7. Russell 65
8 Magic 87
9. Duncan 2003
10. Walton 77

[Narigo]

1. 1991 Michael Jordan
2. 1967 Wilt Chamberlain
3. 2000 Shaquille O'Neal
4. 1994 Hakeem Olajuwon
5. 1962 Bill Russell
6. 1977 Kareem Abdul Jabbar
7. 2013 LeBron James
8. 1977 Bill Walton
9. 2003 Tim Duncan
10. 1990 Magic Johnson
11. 1986 Larry Bird
12. 2004 Kevin Garnett
13. 1976 Julius Erving
14. 1990 Charles Barkley
15. 2006 Dirk Nowitzki
16. 2008 Kobe Bryant
17. 2009 Dwyane Wade
18. 1966 Jerry West
19. 1964 Oscar Robertson
20. 1997 Karl Malone

[JordansBulls]

Why is this unstickied?

No more discussion. But then again, the other topics are still stickied for top 100 all time and real gm poy.

[ardee]

Why is this unstickied?

No more discussion. But then again, the other topics are still stickied for top 100 all time and real gm poy.

Yeah it's still a project.

Doctor MJ or beast, would you sticky it again?

[Gregoire]

I have the proposition to create new thread for selected posters, since Im very interested in these discussion. Since Im not a mod, I cant directly create project, but its not difficult to do individual thread for it. I will propose to voting for some posters, which in my mind are well-balanced, knowlegable ect. Soon If moderators will go with my idea - it will be project, if not - onlt thread. Something like "Top-5 peaks ever" with all posters approve to vote, but for me I will be interesting to hear some "elite" (in my view of course) posters.

[Durins Baynes]

I doubt the interest level is, or was, as high as for the other stickied projects (one of which is ongoing). It's probably best not to sticky it.

[ardee]

Funny how peaks are now dominating the first page of the PC board

[Gregoire]

Funny how peaks are now dominating the first page of the PC board

These project should be sticked...

[Gregoire]

Anyone else have a ballot?

Yes -- and I was going to ask everyone this question. I believe it has value two-fold:

(1) If Doc, realbig3, fatal, Mufasa, drza, Regulat8r, raven, Penbeast, etc all submit a ballot, we can see the biases based on the current voting method. To me, this is the most interesting and valuable thing from a voting/results perspective.

(2) It forces people to make a ballot, which can be a very good thing. I'll post my top-40 below in an edit.

Rank Year SRS Impact Portability Health Player

SACRED PEAKS
1 1990 9.0 AVG 100% Jordan
2 2000 9.0 AVG 100% Shaq
3 1986 8.0 HIGH 100% Bird
4 1967 8.0 AVG 100% Chamberlain
5 2012 8.0 AVG 90% LBJ
6 1987 7.5 AVG 100% Magic
7 1993 7.5 HIGH 100% Olajuwon
8 1962 8.0 HIGH 100% Russell
9 2002 7.5 HIGH 100% Duncan
10 2004 7.5 HIGH 100% KG
11 1977 8.0 HIGH 80% Walton

GATEKEEPERS
12 1977 7.0 AVG 100% Kareem
13 1976 7.0 AVG 100% Erving

ALMOST SACRED
14 1994 6.5 HIGH 100% Robinson
15 2009 6.5 AVG 100% Wade
16 1968 6.5 HIGH 60% West
17 1990 6.0 HIGH 100% Barkley
18 1964 6.0 HIGH 100% Oscar
19 2008 6.0 AVG 100% Kobe
20 2008 6.0 AVG 100% Paul
21 1992 6.0 AVG 100% Malone
22 2007 6.0 AVG 90% Nash
23 2006 5.5 AVG 100% Dirk
24 1990 5.5 AVG 100% Ewing
25 1982 5.5 AVG 100% Moses
26 2003 6.0 AVG 90% McGrady

THE REST
27 2011 5.0 HIGH 100% Howard
28 1991 5.0 HIGH 100% Pippen
29 2012 5.0 HIGH 100% Durant
30 1996 5.0 HIGH 100% Penny
31 1975 5.5 AVG 100% Barry
32 1987 5.0 AVG 90% McHale
33 1971 5.0 AVG 100% Frazier
34 1967 5.0 AVG 80% Thurmond
35 1975 4.5 HIGH 100% Gilmore
36 2006 4.0 HIGH 100% Pierce
37 1997 5.0 LOW 100% Hill
38 2000 4.0 HIGH 100% Mourning
39 1984 4.5 LOW 90% King
40 1985 4.0 AVG 100% Thomas

**Note -- multiple years may qualify for the same player -- in that case, the first occurrence was selected

Very interesting stuff.
1. Just want to see how you breakdown these peaks into offense and defense impact?
2. What does it mean "health" in the context?
3. If now you ranked them different and where now 2013 or 2014 Lebron?

[Gregoire]

Posting my top 50, it's not set it stone or anything, always receptive to new arguments. The "+" rating is just my personal summation of a player's offensive impact/ability, defensive impact, and intangibles (different caps for each). Added it to show which players I see around the same level. Like others have mentioned, not a fan of naked lists because don't get a chance to explain why a certain year is picked or why a certain player is ranked so high/low.

1. '91 MJ +9.5
2. '93 Hakeem +9
3. '00 Shaq +9
4. '77 KAJ +8
5. '12 LeBron +8
6. '86 Bird +8
7. '87 Magic +8
8. '03 Duncan +8
9. '04 KG +7.5
10. '77 Walton +7.5
11. '62 Russell +7.5
12. '67 Wilt +7
13. '09 Wade +6.5
14. '64 Oscar +6.5
15. '08 Kobe +6.5
16. '76 Dr. J +6.5
17. '90 Ewing +6.5
18. '95 D-Rob +6.5
19. '70 West +6.5
20. '11 Dirk +6
21. '07 Nash +6
22. '03 T-Mac +6
23. '09 Paul +6
24. '93 Barkley +6
25. '98 Malone +6
26. '87 McHale +5.5
27. '12 Durant +5.5
28. '11 Howard +5.5
29. '83 Moses +5.5
30. '94 Pippen +5.5
31. '75 Barry +5.5
32. '96 Penny +5.5
33. '72 Frazier +5
34. '00 Zo +5
35. '06 Pierce +5
36. '74 Lanier +5
37. '76 Cowens +5
38. '92 Drexler +5
39. '00 Hill +5
40. '59 Pettit +5
41. '03 Kidd +5
42. '88 Isiah +5
43. '92 Price +5
44. '71 Thurmond +5
45. '76 McAdoo +4.5
46. '07 Manu +4.5
47. '01 Vince +4.5
48. '96 Payton +4.5
49. '70 Reed +4.5
50. '92 Stockton +4.5 (or KJ)

There are a couple of players who could be on here but I'm not really comfortable ranking yet. Even guys like McAdoo and Pettit, despite throwing them on here, I still don't feel I have a good grasp of their game and team situation.

Lately, I've been more and more curious about Shaq's playoff defense. I haven't revisited some of the series from his absolute peak in a long time but it's interesting to me how poorly his teams perform/fall-off on defense in the playoffs . Are his team defensive weaknesses being strategically exploited by good teams (even in years Shaq is "trying" on D)?

Just seems not bad list too... Now I think you have Hakeem at 1 and Lebron higher (2013 version)?

[Gregoire]

Any of these guys have the list?
JulesWinnfield
Reservoirdawgs
mopper8
tsherkin
Mutnt
jals
NugzHeat3
Durins Baynes
accrossthecourt
rravenred
PaulieWall
Gideon
Infamous1
Boarder Patrol
OnePostLegend
Notanoob
SummitAllstar
parapooper
Modulate
NH13
Rapcity_11
HeartBreakKid
Reservoirdawgs
An Unbiased Fan

[Gregoire]

I'm not sure this has been discussed but in general I think most players peak seasons have been captured. The order is obvious up for debate but in general a reasonable job has been done but I'd put Lebron's peak season up there higher since I believe it may be better then Jordan's after you adjust for the improved level of competition today. Sure Jordan more dominant in the finals but in his most dominant finals he just wasn't usually facing very good defenses. I'm also someone that would tend to vote the dominant centers higher.

There is one glaring error IMHO unless I miss the criteria which I may have. I don't think anybody could ever convince me that Barkley was as good with the Suns as he was in his prime with Philly. Was there any Philly fans from the 80's that were on the panel and how did they vote? Since I was a diehard Celtics fan and I was a Danny Ainge fan I followed Barkley's career with the Suns and Philly very closely. Watched lots of his games..remembered his interviews. In an interview back then with Phoenix, Barkley even said himself that his best years were with Philly and not in Phoenix. Much better offensively and better on defense as well. The difference in records was just that Phoenix had some good to great players supporting him and Philly truly had some terrible supporting casts for Barkley during his prime. Some of the names may have been good such as Andrew Toney but during Barkley's peak seasons with Philly Toney wasn't that good at all.

Prime Barkley with Philly for about 4 years was an absolute monster but he was usually playing with much less talent then Lebron in Cleveland.

When you consider NBA players on average peak at 24-25, Barkley's stats by far are the best around that age -- led the NBA in TS% 4 years straight -- and Barkley himself when he was having his MVP year with Phoenix readily admitted he was better in Philly earlier in his career. By the end of Barkley's career in Philly he had already declined and that makes sense since he didn't really do a good job in taking care of his body at all. Barkley is one of those guys who lost a good deal of his athleticism at a young age.

Prime Philly Barkley with that cast of characters in Phoenix probably beats the Jordan Bulls in 5 games instead of losing in 6.

Great post! Peak Barkley was beast offensively... Right there with Magic, Jordan and Bird

[SideshowBob]

Great post! Peak Barkley was beast offensively... Right there with Magic, Jordan and Bird

How would you rank the 4 offensively, peak-wise?

Also, where does Nash fit in there?