RealGM Top 100 List #10

[andrewww]

One thing I haven't heard Kobe fans address yet are his attitude issues (the same ones that they placed heavy emphasis on during the 3-peat era) and questionable shot selection at times (or not taking them at all).

How much value should we be putting here because, as I was told before, we can't just let this slide.

Dude, we've all addressed this issue, it's your ignorance and lack of research that I'm calling you out for.

I'm not going to leave your name out of this for a second if I'm being ridiculed for standing up for what I feel is untrue.

[Clyde Frazier]

And I'm more than willing to try to quantify and adjust Mikan, Oscar Robertson, Julius Erving, Rick Barry, Moses Malone, and anyone else.

How would you go about quantifying and adjusting erving and (to a lesser extent) barry? This is something i've been struggling with as we get closer to erving, as I think his ABA years should be valued relatively highly.

Something like (numbers are examples only)

The ABA in 1970 was 5 points worse than the NBA, so deduct 1 point per player
The ABA in 1976 was 3 points worse than the NBA, so deduct .6 points per player

So instead of being plus 6 points, maybe Doctor J is plus 5.4 points -

remember examples only - I don't want to debate Doctor J or anyone else until they are nominated.

But when they are, I do want to debate - or express my opinions - on the subject.

http://www.apbr.org/oct2000.html

Very interesting breakdown in the link you provided, thanks.

[DQuinn1575]

How would you go about quantifying and adjusting erving and (to a lesser extent) barry? This is something i've been struggling with as we get closer to erving, as I think his ABA years should be valued relatively highly.

Something like (numbers are examples only)

The ABA in 1970 was 5 points worse than the NBA, so deduct 1 point per player
The ABA in 1976 was 3 points worse than the NBA, so deduct .6 points per player

So instead of being plus 6 points, maybe Doctor J is plus 5.4 points -

remember examples only - I don't want to debate Doctor J or anyone else until they are nominated.

But when they are, I do want to debate - or express my opinions - on the subject.

http://www.apbr.org/oct2000.html

Very interesting breakdown in the link you provided, thanks.

For perspective- I did that 14 years ago.

[MacGill]

One thing I haven't heard Kobe fans address yet are his attitude issues (the same ones that they placed heavy emphasis on during the 3-peat era) and questionable shot selection at times (or not taking them at all).

How much value should we be putting here because, as I was told before, we can't just let this slide.

Dude, we've all addressed this issue, it's your ignorance and lack of research that I'm calling you out for.

I'm not going to leave your name out of this for a second if I'm being ridiculed for standing up for what I feel is untrue.

Ok, I've gone back to page 10 and still can't see it, mostly KG posts. Please link me to where 'we've all addressed this issue' is. I won't even touch the ridiculed part. I don't think I have ever even debated with you before.

[Reservoirdawgs]

Wrong. Kobe is typically seen as a top 8-10 player, right in the mix with Duncan/Hakeem/Shaq. So 6 is not such an 'outrageous' vote.

This is my third time trying to write this post...hopefully it goes through this time!

I typically see Kobe around the Top 10, usually a little before and a little after. But honestly, I couldn't care less about that...I was simply commenting on "outrageous" votes since andrewww was so concerned about there being outrageous votes in this thread that I was wondering if he would consider a vote for Kobe at #6 'outrageous' as well.

The way I view this project is that there are no 'outrageous' votes. If someone is able to be open-minded and back up their statements with well-reasoned arguments that are qualitative and quantitative then I will listen to them and decide whether it is a view that I agree with or not. If someone wants to vote Kobe or KG #1 then I will be VERY dubious but I would like to hear their reason for doing so and see whether I buy their argument and then offer a counter-argument. At the end of the day that's what this is. The people who are so concerned about rankings and about having their player of choice at a certain rank are doing this poorly, and I can see why people could be filled with 'angst' over this project if that is the view that they are going with.

EDIT: I did get andrewww mixed up with another poster in the meta thread who had similar teams as him...sorry for that andrewww, I've edited that out.

[andrewww]

Wrong. Kobe is typically seen as a top 8-10 player, right in the mix with Duncan/Hakeem/Shaq. So 6 is not such an 'outrageous' vote.

This is my third time trying to write this post...hopefully it goes through this time!

I typically see Kobe around the Top 10, usually a little before and a little after. But honestly, I couldn't care less about that...I was simply commenting on "outrageous" votes since andrewww was so concerned about there being outrageous votes in this thread (if memory serves me, I believe he was the one who was whining and complaining in another thread about leaving the project because there was no 'integrity' and that it was ridiculous that someone would vote for KG #4) that I was wondering if he would consider a vote for Kobe at #6 'outrageous' as well.

The way I view this project is that there are no 'outrageous' votes. If someone is able to be open-minded and back up their statements with well-reasoned arguments that are qualitative and quantitative then I will listen to them and decide whether it is a view that I agree with or not. If someone wants to vote Kobe or KG #1 then I will be VERY dubious but I would like to hear their reason for doing so and see whether I buy their argument and then offer a counter-argument. At the end of the day that's what this is. The people who are so concerned about rankings and about having their player of choice at a certain rank are doing this poorly, and I can see why people could be filled with 'angst' over this project if that is the view that they are going with.

I never made such a comment, so that's incorrect.

[magicmerl]

So are we in a runoff yet? I'll be choosing Bird if the alternative is Kobe.

[Reservoirdawgs]

I never made such a comment, so that's incorrect.

You're correct, I mixed you up with another poster. I edited my post.

[andrewww]

One thing I haven't heard Kobe fans address yet are his attitude issues (the same ones that they placed heavy emphasis on during the 3-peat era) and questionable shot selection at times (or not taking them at all).

How much value should we be putting here because, as I was told before, we can't just let this slide.

Dude, we've all addressed this issue, it's your ignorance and lack of research that I'm calling you out for.

I'm not going to leave your name out of this for a second if I'm being ridiculed for standing up for what I feel is untrue.

Ok, I've gone back to page 10 and still can't see it, mostly KG posts. Please link me to where 'we've all addressed this issue' is. I won't even touch the ridiculed part. I don't think I have ever even debated with you before.

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1337226&start=80

To quote myself:

"It's easy to criticize the negatives and while I agree that he deserves blame for alot of it (the KMalone drama with his wife, connecting with teammates when he was younger, handling criticism or slights in a more mature manner), a lot of the Shaq drama was contributed by Diesel himself if we're being objective. What hurts Kobe most as a player is mainly his stubborness and tendency to take hero shots, hence why he's only got a modest FG% for his career. This is why I feel the top 9 deservedly have the edge on these rankings.

If you can make 7 finals in 11 prime years (2000-2010), by my book you must be doing something right. And let's not forget, it's not like the West was ever the inferior conference at ANY point in time. Level of competition speaks for itself. You have arguably the greatest tandem ever being co-anchors (though Shaq was more influential at his peak compared to Kobe) considering Derek Fisher was probably your 3rd best player who was the perfect compliment by going 15 of 20 from behing the arc during the 2001 Finals against Philly."

[andrewww]

I never made such a comment, so that's incorrect.

You're correct, I mixed you up with another poster. I edited my post.

Fair enough, and though I don't think voting him at 6th is outrageous for the record (we have a vote for Admiral at 10 when has 20th in the last project but everyone is entitled to their opinion).

I certainly wouldn't support the notion of Kobe at 6th because I thought guys like Shaq/Duncan/Hakeem were overall more influential as players.

[MacGill]

This is the discussion? A quote you made?

Appreciate the link but this is hardly a discussion? Did you not read Baller24's whole list of Kobe statements and statements about him?

Anyway, if Kobe is your player, kewl, but I want to be able to talk about his positives and negatives without being called out for 'ish' that I am not doing. If you disagree, then I think there is a way for you to respectfully disagree, no?

I am not calling out anyone by name here and when other's ask for KG fans to respond to something, this tone isn't being used.

[andrewww]

This is the discussion? A quote you made?

Appreciate the link but this is hardly a discussion? Did you not read Baller24's whole list of Kobe statements and statements about him?

Anyway, if Kobe is your player, kewl, but I want to be able to talk about his positives and negatives without being called out for 'ish' that I am not doing. If you disagree, then I think there is a way for you to respectfully disagree, no?

I am not calling out anyone by name here and when other's ask for KG fans to respond to something, this tone isn't being used.

I dont' want to beat on a dead horse but I don't think you've even understood where I was coming from. You were indirectly implying that the notion of Kobe being in the discussion now was unsubstantiated and that's inaccurate.

He's not even my player to be honest, Magic was but I felt you were being disengenuous with your comments even though you were very slick with it. That's why I was being direct because others immediately attacked me for it.

Anyway, I'm done with this I've already PM'd the other poster and we both agree that the situation as a whole could have been handled better by all parties. Let's carry on with the topic at hand.

And for the record, baller2014's view on Kobe isn't exactly a ringing endorsement. Other's have already called him out in various posts on the PC board. I can say confidently that he is biggest anti-Kobe eligible poster on this project.

[DQuinn1575]

I have the vote as follows:

Larry Bird ((12) Baller2014, DQuinn1575, ClydeFrazier, Warspite, rich316. DHodgkins, acrossthecourt, trex_8063. ronnymac2, Moonbeam, ChuckTexas, DannyNoonan1221

Kobe (3) andrewww, GCPantalones, AnUnbiasedFan

Garnett (2) PCProductions, therealbig3

DRobinson (1) magicmerl

I voted for KG as well:

viewtopic.php?p=40765107#p40765107

So are we in a runoff yet? I'll be choosing Bird if the alternative is Kobe.

I'm hoping we can get this one called - Bird has 12 of 19, and a runoff support that would make it 13 of 19 -

I think this will give us a Top 10 that is no surprise - the top 9 from last time and LeBron

To me it gets interesting at 11 with a much wider range of opinions. We also are going to wind up with only 20 votes - I'm hoping more possible candidates at 11 brings back some people who didn't pay attention at 10.

[ceiling raiser]

I have the vote as follows:

Larry Bird ((12) Baller2014, DQuinn1575, ClydeFrazier, Warspite, rich316. DHodgkins, acrossthecourt, trex_8063. ronnymac2, Moonbeam, ChuckTexas, DannyNoonan1221

Kobe (3) andrewww, GCPantalones, AnUnbiasedFan

Garnett (2) PCProductions, therealbig3

DRobinson (1) magicmerl

I voted for KG as well:

viewtopic.php?p=40765107#p40765107

So are we in a runoff yet? I'll be choosing Bird if the alternative is Kobe.

I'm hoping we can get this one called - Bird has 12 of 19, and a runoff support that would make it 13 of 19 -

I think this will give us a Top 10 that is no surprise - the top 9 from last time and LeBron

To me it gets interesting at 11 with a much wider range of opinions. We also are going to wind up with only 20 votes - I'm hoping more possible candidates at 11 brings back some people who didn't pay attention at 10.

I don't think I'd feel comfortable voting in a runoff at this spot (just as I decided not to vote in the Shaq/Duncan runoff). With a gun to my head I'd pick Bird of the two, but I haven't given this particular comparison enough thought to go on the record with a definitive vote.

[ardee]

One thing I haven't heard Kobe fans address yet are his attitude issues (the same ones that they placed heavy emphasis on during the 3-peat era) and questionable shot selection at times (or not taking them at all).

How much value should we be putting here because, as I was told before, we can't just let this slide.

The fact that Kobe is only receiving discussion at 10 and may not get voted in until 11 or 12 and not much earlier means that these 'issues' are already being addressed.

[PaulieWal]

Magic was

Magic getting in at #8 changed the entire project IMO and deviated from a lot of people's top 10 lists. See here:

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1327767

I didn't expect Shaq and Duncan to get voted in before him. Then by the time the project got to #7 LeBron was a viable candidate on his own. Unfortunately I couldn't participate in this project due to other commitments and I felt I wouldn't be able to commit fully to it but the discussion here has been top notch for the most part. Still this has been something from which I have learned a lot.

I said this before to AUB and he didn't reply but saying that RealGM is way off on Kobe and the consensus says this or that isn't accurate. Firstly it's only the PC board. Do a poll on the GB and you are bound to get more votes for him as a top 5 guy than a top 10 guy. I believe Quotatious did a thread on this and Kobe was placed higher than the PC board. Bird too is a "consensus" top 6 guy out of the PC board but he's about to fall to #10 here.

Anyway, the point is that Kobe belongs in the top 8-12 IMO (10 for me personally) and I can see him placed in any of those slots with reasonable justification. If I can free up more time I will start posting more in these threads and ask for a vote, so many good posters and so much information being exchanged.

[Texas Chuck]

Magic was

Magic getting in at #8 changed the entire project IMO and deviated from a lot of people's top 10 lists. See here:

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1327767

I didn't expect Shaq and Duncan to get voted in before him. .

I had Shaq,Duncan, and Magic all somewhere between 4-6 prior to the start of the project with the bigs slightly ahead of Magic. No real problem with him at 8.

I think one of things that happens with Magic(and Bird) is that, especially for those of us old enough to really remember watching those guys play, we start with this idea in our heads of what great players they were because we remember seeing them do these things no one else can do and thus if someone just asks you off the cuff without doing deep analysis, its easy to think of them as top 5 players.

But when you dig deeper it becomes less clear. And you can see more clearly the arguments for a player like Tim Duncan who doesnt immediately jump to mind when you think of all-time greats, but when you really look at his career its obvious he belongs very very high. Or KG, same thing.

And again, Im convinced that the board's list will be superior to my personal list even as I disagree with some of it(Russell should be GOAT, etc) because the collective wisdom is obviously better than mine. Even if Dirk is in the 20's, Pippen in the 40's and Kidd and Deke completely off the list.

[Jim Naismith]

I think this will give us a Top 10 that is no surprise - the top 9 from last time and LeBron.

RealGM Straw Poll Results
(See http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1328602)

1. Michael Jordan (296 points)
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (250 points)
3. Bill Russell (221 points)
4. Magic Johnson (177 points)
5. Shaquille O'Neal (161 points)
6. Tim Duncan (141 points)
7. Wilt Chamberlain (110 points)
8. LeBron James (100 points)
9. Hakeem Olajuwon (96 points)
10. Larry Bird (69 points)
11. Kobe Bryant (11 points)
12. Kevin Garnett (10 points)
13. Oscar Robertson (7 points)
14. Julius Erving/Jerry West (1 point)

Current Results (with difference, if any, from straw poll)
1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Bill Russell
4. Wilt Chamberlain (+3)
5. Tim Duncan (+1)
6. Shaquille O'Neal (-1)
7. LeBron James (+1)
8. Magic Johnson (-4)
9. Hakeem Olajuwon
10. Larry Bird

Interestingly, all deviations from the straw poll were confined to places #4 to #8.

[An Unbiased Fan]

Thread has drifted into everything except comparisons.

Offensively, here's a comparison of Kobe/Bird's best volume scoring seasons, and their best AST% seasons.

Top 10 Scoring Seasons per 100 Kobe/Bird
06 Kobe: 45.6 ppg 56% TS
07 Kobe: 39.7 ppg 58% TS
11 Kobe: 39.6 ppg 55% TS
09 Kobe: 37.8 ppg 56% TS
88 Bird: 37.6 ppg 61% TS
03 Kobe: 37.6 ppg 55% TS
08 Kobe: 36.5 ppg 58% TS
01 Kobe: 36.4 ppg 55% TS
13 Kobe: 36.0 ppg 57% TS
10 Kobe: 35.9 ppg 55% TS
^
Cutout sub 54% TS seasons for btoh to preserve efficiecny. Bird only had 1 season above 35+ ppg, back in 1988. Kobe was the more prolific scorer.

Top 10 AST% Seasons
13 Kobe: 29.7
90 Bird: 28.9
87 Bird: 28.6
05 Kobe: 28.5
03 Kobe: 27.3
92 Bird: 26.9
11 Kobe: 26.7
86 Bird: 26.3
84 Bird: 26.2
02 Kobe: 25.9


I asked this earlier but no one answered. If Kobe/Bird are on par offensively, and Kobe had the edge(whether slight for some, or not) on defense. And Kobe has a clear longevity edge. And Kobe had more success despite both having good casts......How is Bird above?

[ceiling raiser]

I asked this earlier but no one answered. If Kobe/Bird are on par offensively, and Kobe had the edge(whether slight for some, or not) on defense. And Kobe has a clear longevity edge. And Kobe had more success despite both having good casts......How is Bird above?

I still don't feel comfortable with the bolded. I appreciate your response earlier in the thread, but I'd need to watch a ton more tape of Bird and see more data before I could form an opinion either way.

As I said a few posts earlier though, I'm not voting in the runoff because there's too much uncertainty for me. So maybe most posters in the thread who are voting have a better understanding of Bird's defense, and as such it's not as big a deal for them as it is for me.