Greatest Peaks series (Thinking Basketball/Ben Taylor)

[sansterre]

I really didn't see his stuff on Jordan's defense as negative at all. Really all I heard was "Jordan was an extremely good defender. He generated a ton of steals. He was really good at it. These steals led to a lot of highlight plays. But understand that he accrued most of them by gambling, so those highlight plays do have a subtle cost that you don't necessarily notice unless you're looking for them. He was *really* good at gambling for steals, but to focus on the steals and ignore the cost of the gamble is disingenuous, so here we are."

I think something Ben really looks for is consistently sound defense (like how much attention he gave KG and Russell for their consistently being in the right place at the right time in the Top 40 write-ups). So I think seeing a player that gambles a lot, even if very well, pushes his buttons in the wrong way. Especially because sound defense and good decision-making is hard to notice unless you're really looking, so it tends to be left out of a lot of analysis.

[eminence]

LeBron
Bird
Hakeem
MJ
KG
Magic
Walton
Kareem
Kobe
Shaq
Duncan

Are the 11 guys that seem to be featured in the intro portion of the vid. Obviously he's already added Robinson to that list to get up to 12. I expect a couple of more recent guys to get a spot, most notably Curry imo, so still two free spots if he's really doing 15 (Dirk grabbing one?). Kobe seems perfectly arguable as top 15, no idea why some are presenting Kobe being included as an offense.

The thing is ben hates kobe's peak. or at least did as of backpicks realtive to the people on thevideo. His peak was so underwhelmigng for ben he dropped kobe 5 spots below what his corp was.

Maybe ben puts kobe there due to his popularity but ben doesn't seem all that concerned about appealing to the masses.

Hate seems like way too strong of descriptor, haven't checked any updated ratings, but as of his top 40 he had Kobe right around 15th for peak for guys considered for this project. Pretty even with Wade/Dirk/Nash/CP3 clearly above guys like Barkley/Malone/Moses. As this is sort of an extended peak thing I'd imagine it favors Kobe over most of them (certainly Wade/CP3).

If that 15 number I've seen floated isn't true and he's actually only doing 10-12 then I could see Kobe out, but I'd be pretty surprised if he does 15 and leaves out Kobe, there's not a ton of incentive (or truth imo, to putting the cutoff at someone like Dirk and leaving out Kobe).

If 15 then I imagine it's the 11 I listed from the video, +Robinson obviously, and then Dirk/KD/Curry. I'd kind of forgotten how high Ben was on peak KD. Nash the one I'm watching to slip in above any others, maybe Harden, but I don't remember him being particularly high on him.

[70sFan]

i just watched Hakeem's video - it's good and I agree with Ben's evaluation in most parts. I won't give much details until he shares the video on YT

By the way, he mentioned in the post for patrons that the series will be 16 episodes long - the last one will be about ranking. This means 7 peaks left and the next one is about Shaq.

[Odinn21]

i just watched Hakeem's video - it's good and I agree with Ben's evaluation in most parts. I won't give much details until he shares the video on YT

By the way, he mentioned in the post for patrons that the series will be 16 episodes long - the last one will be about ranking. This means 7 peaks left and the next one is about Shaq.

Then it'll be Duncan, Garnett. It's obvious that he'll have Bryant, James and Curry. Wonder who'll be his picks for the remaining 2 spots.

I hope he mentions at least one of Moses Malone, Charles Barkley, Steve Nash, Dwyane Wade as honourable mention in the last episode.

[Doctor MJ]

i just watched Hakeem's video - it's good and I agree with Ben's evaluation in most parts. I won't give much details until he shares the video on YT

By the way, he mentioned in the post for patrons that the series will be 16 episodes long - the last one will be about ranking. This means 7 peaks left and the next one is about Shaq.

Hakeem was my favorite in his BackPicks 40 project, and he's my favorite so far this time too. Such a spectacular player, it's really amazing he's never been that popular. You have to wonder if things would have been different if Olajuwon were an American with a name Americans felt more comfortable with.

[70sFan]

i just watched Hakeem's video - it's good and I agree with Ben's evaluation in most parts. I won't give much details until he shares the video on YT

By the way, he mentioned in the post for patrons that the series will be 16 episodes long - the last one will be about ranking. This means 7 peaks left and the next one is about Shaq.

Then it'll be Duncan, Garnett. It's obvious that he'll have Bryant, James and Curry. Wonder who'll be his picks for the remaining 2 spots.

I hope he mentions at least one of Moses Malone, Charles Barkley, Steve Nash, Dwyane Wade as honourable mention in the last episode.

To me his choices for sure are Shaq, Duncan, Garnett, Bryant, James and Curry. I'm not sure who will be the last one - KD? Giannis or Davis? Maybe Wade? I don't think he's high enough on Dirk or Nash, though I could be wrong.

It's a shame that he didn't make a video about Julius Erving. Of course I also wish he did any videos about pre-merger players but the project is great anyway so I shouldn't complain. I wouldn't expect anything about Moses or Barkley - Ben isn't as high on them as you are.

[70sFan]

i just watched Hakeem's video - it's good and I agree with Ben's evaluation in most parts. I won't give much details until he shares the video on YT

By the way, he mentioned in the post for patrons that the series will be 16 episodes long - the last one will be about ranking. This means 7 peaks left and the next one is about Shaq.

Hakeem was my favorite in his BackPicks 40 project, and he's my favorite so far this time too. Such a spectacular player, it's really amazing he's never been that popular. You have to wonder if things would have been different if Olajuwon were an American with a name Americans felt more comfortable with.

I can't wait to see the video about my favorite. Timmy's breakdown will be amazing to see.

[Odinn21]

i just watched Hakeem's video - it's good and I agree with Ben's evaluation in most parts. I won't give much details until he shares the video on YT

By the way, he mentioned in the post for patrons that the series will be 16 episodes long - the last one will be about ranking. This means 7 peaks left and the next one is about Shaq.

Then it'll be Duncan, Garnett. It's obvious that he'll have Bryant, James and Curry. Wonder who'll be his picks for the remaining 2 spots.

I hope he mentions at least one of Moses Malone, Charles Barkley, Steve Nash, Dwyane Wade as honourable mention in the last episode.

To me his choices for sure are Shaq, Duncan, Garnett, Bryant, James and Curry. I'm not sure who will be the last one - KD? Giannis or Davis? Maybe Wade? I don't think he's high enough on Dirk or Nash, though I could be wrong.

It's a shame that he didn't make a video about Julius Erving. Of course I also wish he did any videos about pre-merger players but the project is great anyway so I shouldn't complain. I wouldn't expect anything about Moses or Barkley - Ben isn't as high on them as you are.

I know that he's not as high as me on Moses and I mostly put that on he's convinced about some inaccurate notions about the player. But he's already a rather polarizing figure to begin with.
OTOH, Barkley was an offensive goat, his defense was not a negative impact. I mean, it just boggles my mind that how Barkley was close to Magic and Jordan in 1990, in both categories impact and production, and yet, people -including Taylor- still go on with making assumptions like that wasn't the case.

This thought alone is something interesting to consider;
Barkley vs. Jordan and Magic in 1989-91 time frame
Curry vs. James in 2015-17 time frame
I don't think Barkley falls short of Curry, especially considering Curry's postseason resilience and health issues.

[Doctor MJ]

i just watched Hakeem's video - it's good and I agree with Ben's evaluation in most parts. I won't give much details until he shares the video on YT

By the way, he mentioned in the post for patrons that the series will be 16 episodes long - the last one will be about ranking. This means 7 peaks left and the next one is about Shaq.

Hakeem was my favorite in his BackPicks 40 project, and he's my favorite so far this time too. Such a spectacular player, it's really amazing he's never been that popular. You have to wonder if things would have been different if Olajuwon were an American with a name Americans felt more comfortable with.

I can't wait to see the video about my favorite. Timmy's breakdown will be amazing to see.

Cool. Anything in particular you're hoping to see?

[VanWest82]

Also, I am in touch with Ben and I know how much work he put up in this project. I know that he bought rare games from the collector to get bigger sample of each player (specifically KG and TD as I helped him with these). I gave him hours of footage for his first three videos and he watched all of them, likely more than once or twice. We all know that Ben's involved in scouting players for years if not decades.

But here comes one Jordan fan who says that he watched random 20 Jordan games and came with "wrong" conclusion. Seriously, it's so lazy that it drives me mad. You can disagree with his conclusions like Odinn does for example, but he uses completely different approach - he spends a lot of time himself analyzing basketball and he shares his arguments here instead of saying "smart boy knows nothing".

Gotcha. You have a personal stake in this which is why your feelings got hurt and are lashing out.

I watched closer to 200 games of 80s/90s Bulls live (or tape delayed in those days) and many more since on youtube, etc. Maybe that's not enough to have an opinion about them on this forum, idk. BTW I acknowledged MJ was over aggressive at times. Either way, my criticism was more about the language that was used. Was he providing analysis or cracking jokes about MJ's gambling addiction? When he does Karl Malone is he going to refer to his rotating cast of teammates as his illegitimate children? I'm sure it wasn't intentional and I'm just overreacting but it stood out.

Also, is it good analysis to knock MJ for "gambling" vs. Magic in the post in 91 when Magic had three inches and thirty pounds on him? It's probably the tactic I would've taken. Magic was a load.

Anyway, pretty sure no one said "smart boy knows nothing." Taylor did a good job overall. Also pretty sure it's ok to disagree and not resort to calling anyone who doesn't agree with you fanboys. Just makes you sound like a teenager.

[KTM_2813]

Also, I am in touch with Ben and I know how much work he put up in this project. I know that he bought rare games from the collector to get bigger sample of each player (specifically KG and TD as I helped him with these). I gave him hours of footage for his first three videos and he watched all of them, likely more than once or twice. We all know that Ben's involved in scouting players for years if not decades.

But here comes one Jordan fan who says that he watched random 20 Jordan games and came with "wrong" conclusion. Seriously, it's so lazy that it drives me mad. You can disagree with his conclusions like Odinn does for example, but he uses completely different approach - he spends a lot of time himself analyzing basketball and he shares his arguments here instead of saying "smart boy knows nothing".

Gotcha. You have a personal stake in this which is why your feelings got hurt and are lashing out.

I watched closer to 200 games of 80s/90s Bulls live (or tape delayed in those days) and many more since on youtube, etc. Maybe that's not enough to have an opinion about them on this forum, idk. BTW I acknowledged MJ was over aggressive at times. Either way, my criticism was more about the language that was used. Was he providing analysis or cracking jokes about MJ's gambling addiction? When he does Karl Malone is he going to refer to his rotating cast of teammates as his illegitimate children? I'm sure it wasn't intentional and I'm just overreacting but it stood out.

Also, is it good analysis to knock MJ for "gambling" vs. Magic in the post in 91 when Magic had three inches and thirty pounds on him? It's probably the tactic I would've taken. Magic was a load.

Anyway, pretty sure no one said "smart boy knows nothing." Taylor did a good job overall. Also pretty sure it's ok to disagree and not resort to calling anyone who doesn't agree with you fanboys. Just makes you sound like a teenager.

A few things in your post don't seem to line up. For example, you criticized 70sFan for lashing out against anyone who disagrees with him, and yet in the very post you quoted, 70sFan said, "You can disagree with [ElGee's] conclusions like Odinn does for example, but he uses completely different approach - he spends a lot of time himself analyzing basketball and he shares his arguments here..." In other words, disagreement is fine as long as there is actual analysis and/or argument behind it. It seems clear that 70sFan is criticizing a very specific kind of post, as opposed to saying that all disagreement is bad or fanatical.

[LukaTheGOAT]

Ooh. Nice catch, I didn't realize some guys weren't getting three full years. I wonder if he'll try a plot twist on us and list random years like 2009, 2013, and 2016. Just to be safe though, I'll stick with my 2012 - 2014 guess.

He says in this vid that it just has to be 2 consecutive seasons. He could just end up focusing on 12 and 13 with this logic, albeit he does think 14 is Lebron's offensive peak.

if its two consecutive seasons than i guess you have 9-10, 12-13 and 16-17?

i'd say 15-16 warrants consideration but ben definitely doesn't value 15 as much as I do to the shooting in effeicny

Yeah. He like's Miami Lebron because he believes Lebron was better off ball and had a more refined skillset, along with it being around his defensive peak.

[VanWest82]

Ben Taylor thinks MJ has a serial gambling problem. Drew Hanlen just thinks he as active hands.

Watch on YouTube

[70sFan]

Gotcha. You have a personal stake in this which is why your feelings got hurt and are lashing out.

My feelings didn't get hurt at all, I just don't like when people criticize something that required a lot of work in a lazy way without any credible arguments.

I watched closer to 200 games of 80s/90s Bulls live (or tape delayed in those days) and many more since on youtube, etc. Maybe that's not enough to have an opinion about them on this forum, idk. BTW I acknowledged MJ was over aggressive at times.

That's fine, but if you came up with different conclusion then you should make some work to question Ben's take. You should give us some counter arguments, for example doing some work with the tape and showing that you found Jordan's tendencies different than Ben.

Either way, my criticism was more about the language that was used. Was he providing analysis or cracking jokes about MJ's gambling addiction? When he does Karl Malone is he going to refer to his rotating cast of teammates as his illegitimate children? I'm sure it wasn't intentional and I'm just overreacting but it stood out.

I don't find it offensive at all and I doubt Jordan would either (I'm not sure of course). Let's not overreact, it was just a joke after all. Also, gambling addiction and pedophilly are two completely different problems and I wouldn't use them in the same light.

Also, is it good analysis to knock MJ for "gambling" vs. Magic in the post in 91 when Magic had three inches and thirty pounds on him? It's probably the tactic I would've taken. Magic was a load.

This tactic didn't work though. Besides, Ben didn't use Magic as the main example of Jordan's defensive tendencies.

Anyway, pretty sure no one said "smart boy knows nothing." Taylor did a good job overall. Also pretty sure it's ok to disagree and not resort to calling anyone who doesn't agree with you fanboys. Just makes you sound like a teenager.

I said in my post that it's fair to disagree. I disagree with a lot of Ben's takes, but if you want to question his opinions so strongly then it would be nice to back up your claims. Taylor certainly did that after all.

[70sFan]

Hakeem was my favorite in his BackPicks 40 project, and he's my favorite so far this time too. Such a spectacular player, it's really amazing he's never been that popular. You have to wonder if things would have been different if Olajuwon were an American with a name Americans felt more comfortable with.

I can't wait to see the video about my favorite. Timmy's breakdown will be amazing to see.

Cool. Anything in particular you're hoping to see?

Yes, I hope him to show 2002-03 Duncan's ability to defend P&Rs. I watched some games from 2003 WCF a few months ago and when I paid closer attention to his P&R coverage, he impressed me more than I remembered.

I'd also like to hear more about Duncan's faceup game and dribbling. He attacked slower defenders cosistently off the dribble in that era.

Of course passing section is always fascinating. I think that Duncan's passing massively improved from 1999-01 to 2002-03.

[VanWest82]

My feelings didn't get hurt at all, I just don't like when people criticize something that required a lot of work in a lazy way without any credible arguments.

This must be why you called me a sad fanboy. I guess you must routinely use that language.

That's fine, but if you came up with different conclusion then you should make some work to question Ben's take. You should give us some counter arguments, for example doing some work with the tape and showing that you found Jordan's tendencies different than Ben.

Posted Drew Hanlen's take instead which I agree with.

I don't find it offensive at all and I doubt Jordan would either (I'm not sure of course). Let's not overreact, it was just a joke after all.

Let's be real and admit you didn't just find it not offensive - you loved it.

This tactic didn't work though. Besides, Ben didn't use Magic as the main example of Jordan's defensive tendencies.

It didn't and neither would've playing him straight up down there. That match up was dumb. Jordan was giving up way too much size. It's been a tactic employed by every mouse in the house ever.

I said in my post that it's fair to disagree. I disagree with a lot of Ben's takes, but if you want to question his opinions so strongly then it would be nice to back up your claims. Taylor certainly did that after all.

How would you like me to back up my criticism of him using the "gambling and gambling and gambling" line?

Taylor cherry-picked tape to make his point. There was no actual analysis, at least not in that video. I've presented Hanlen's cherry-picked tape which showed MJ's "gambling" to be one of his biggest strengths. I guess it's a draw.

[bondom34]

Just to interject, and from interacting a little w/ Ben as well:

Full disclosure I haven't watched them, but he at times puts in a little light humor. Jordan had an actual, known gambling problem. Possible?

Like, might just be a crack at his actual off court gambling.

[70sFan]

This must be why you called me a sad fanboy. I guess you must routinely use that language.

When did I call you that way? The post I made when I said this wasn't even directed to you...

Posted Drew Hanlen's take instead which I agree with.

I will watch it later, thanks for the output

Let's be real and admit you didn't just find it not offensive - you loved it.

Why would I? It was just a small language game, I don't find it offensive but I don't find it great either. You assume that I am some kind of massive Jordan hater, but I'm not. I don't hate players.

It didn't and neither would've playing him straight up down there. That match up was dumb. Jordan was giving up way too much size. It's been a tactic employed by every mouse in the house ever.

Sure and Ben used it to show that Jordan wasn't elite post defender, which is basically true.

Taylor cherry-picked tape to make his point. There was no actual analysis, at least not in that video. I've presented Hanlen's cherry-picked tape which showed MJ's "gambling" to be one of his biggest strengths. I guess it's a draw.

So show us real analysis. If Ben cherry picked clips, them prove him wrong. It shouldn't be hard.

[LukaTheGOAT]

Ben Taylor thinks MJ has a serial gambling problem. Drew Hanlen just thinks he as active hands.

Watch on YouTube

I think Ben Taylor would agree with the idea that MJ has active hands.

[70sFan]

Ben Taylor thinks MJ has a serial gambling problem. Drew Hanlen just thinks he as active hands.

Watch on YouTube

I just watched the video, thank you for sharing it here.

I think that Drew and Ben agree in a lot of aspects of Jordan's defense. Ben didn't deny that Jordan had active hands or that he was very intimidating defender.

I see one problem here - one video was focused on praising Jordan's defensive strengths but it didn't mention any weakness. Proper analysis should always give you both sides, because perfect defender doesn't exist and Jordan definitely had weaknesses on that end (like anyone else). Another thing is that this video is mostly focused on Jordan's on-ball defense, while Ben focused more on off-ball defense.

I think that Ben should foucs Jordan's man defense more because this is the aspect where he thrived. He had excellent lateral quickness (this actually was mentioned in Ben's video) and his constant agression was intimidating to a lot of players (especially weaker ones). It's two edged sword though, because better players like Magic Johnson could take advantage from his agressive style.

As I said before, I think that Taylor spent too much time trying to fight against narrative in Jordan video. This may give you a reason to believe that he criticized Jordan on that end, but that's not the case really. Jordan was extremely agressive defender who had a lot of value because of his lateral quickness, quick hands and motor. He also made more mistakes than other elite defenders because of that, he was often out of position and that could cost his team.

In the end, nobody ever suggested that Jordan wasn't good defender but Ben suggested that his style of defense wasn't the most optimal and there has been perimeter defenders in NBA history with higher impact on that end than him. That doesn't say that Jordan wasn't elite, but it means that he's not the best. This is something I definitely agree with and I shared this opinion with Taylor way before he made this video. By the way, for very different reasons, I don't think LeBron is the best perimeter defender ever either.