2021-22 NBA Season Discussion

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Re: 2021-22 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#401 » by falcolombardi » Thu Nov 18, 2021 9:36 pm

yoyoboy wrote:I agree about the Nets. Watching the heavily depleted Cavs play them yesterday and shoot like utter garbage all night yet still come close to stealing that game late in the 4th before running out of steam, it was so clear that they're just not that great of a team. Everything they do feels so unstructured. Nobody moves without the ball. Harden's careless as a passer. They're not a very athletic team.


everyone thought that durant and harden didnt need kyrie at all and it seems we all were wrong
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#402 » by Doctor MJ » Thu Nov 18, 2021 9:41 pm

falcolombardi wrote:everyone thought that durant and harden didnt need kyrie at all and it seems we all were wrong


In everyone's defense, the Nets didn't need Kyrie last year - at least to be an elite team last regular season.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#403 » by Doctor MJ » Thu Nov 18, 2021 9:46 pm

yoyoboy wrote:I agree about the Nets. Watching the heavily depleted Cavs play them yesterday and shoot like utter garbage all night yet still come close to stealing that game late in the 4th before running out of steam, it was so clear that they're just not that great of a team. Everything they do feels so unstructured. Nobody moves without the ball. Harden's careless as a passer. They're not a very athletic team.


So there's so much that's interesting about all of this.

Nets fans have their knives out for Nash as the coach, and understandably so, however:

1 - Nash is only the coach because that's who the players (specifically KD above all) wanted as coach, and that specifically meant they didn't want to be micro-managed...which is clearly how KD felt by Kerr in GS. As such, while that might mean that they need some different coach to be at their best, the issue isn't so much "Nash's strategy isn't working" so much as "The players' concept of how their ideal team should work isn't working".

2 - If you had Nash the player out on the floor, it would work. No excuse for Nash the coach, but again, the players really seemed to think that with their talent they could just go out there and improvise and that would be enough...and that really only works when you're really smart about improvising. These guys, I would argue, are being hampered, on several different levels, by the fact that they overestimated how smart they were.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#404 » by Outside » Thu Nov 18, 2021 9:52 pm

falcolombardi wrote:
yoyoboy wrote:I agree about the Nets. Watching the heavily depleted Cavs play them yesterday and shoot like utter garbage all night yet still come close to stealing that game late in the 4th before running out of steam, it was so clear that they're just not that great of a team. Everything they do feels so unstructured. Nobody moves without the ball. Harden's careless as a passer. They're not a very athletic team.


everyone thought that durant and harden didnt need kyrie at all and it seems we all were wrong


Last year's Harden was much better than the current version. Maybe the hamstring is still holding him back, or conditioning, or the foul-hunting rule changes, or whatever, but he's not close to being on KD's level. As Zack Lowe said, instead of a big three, they've got a big 1.75.

The rest of their roster is downgraded, too. Last season, they had Spencer Dinwiddie, Landry Shamet, and Jeff Green, who aren't all-stars but are far more useful offensive options than the roster filler they have now. Losing them hurt.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#405 » by Colbinii » Thu Nov 18, 2021 10:48 pm

Outside wrote:
falcolombardi wrote:
yoyoboy wrote:I agree about the Nets. Watching the heavily depleted Cavs play them yesterday and shoot like utter garbage all night yet still come close to stealing that game late in the 4th before running out of steam, it was so clear that they're just not that great of a team. Everything they do feels so unstructured. Nobody moves without the ball. Harden's careless as a passer. They're not a very athletic team.


everyone thought that durant and harden didnt need kyrie at all and it seems we all were wrong


Last year's Harden was much better than the current version. Maybe the hamstring is still holding him back, or conditioning, or the foul-hunting rule changes, or whatever, but he's not close to being on KD's level. As Zack Lowe said, instead of a big three, they've got a big 1.75.

The rest of their roster is downgraded, too. Last season, they had Spencer Dinwiddie, Landry Shamet, and Jeff Green, who aren't all-stars but are far more useful offensive options than the roster filler they have now. Losing them hurt.


Dinwiddie played 3 games last year. Are you talking about 2020?

Last season, the team played at a ~+5 PP100 with either Kyrie/Harden but with Durant on they were ~+11.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#406 » by Outside » Thu Nov 18, 2021 11:07 pm

Yeah, I was probably thinking of the prior season with Dinwiddie. But Shamet and Green both played, and the point still stands -- they don't have as many guys who are significant offensive threats this season.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#407 » by Colbinii » Fri Nov 19, 2021 12:32 am

Outside wrote:Yeah, I was probably thinking of the prior season with Dinwiddie. But Shamet and Green both played, and the point still stands -- they don't have as many guys who are significant offensive threats this season.


Yup. Both are intelligent players who provided spacing and, in Green's case, defense.

Shame we aren't seeing Rockets Harden with Durant but as we all know, Durant isn't the type of player to be the centerpiece of an offensive system. He is a strong fit and terrific ceiling raiser with his ability to score in difficult environments but isn't someone you take and build a system around.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#408 » by RCM88x » Fri Nov 19, 2021 2:46 am

Predicably, the Cavs blew their load in the 3rd and completely ran out of gas in the 4th.

Still a pretty good showing by a team missing 5 of their top 8 rotation players.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#409 » by Peregrine01 » Fri Nov 19, 2021 2:53 am

RCM88x wrote:Predicably, the Cavs blew their load in the 3rd and completely ran out of gas in the 4th.

Still a pretty good showing by a team missing 5 of their top 8 rotation players.


They look like a better team without Sexton.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#410 » by RCM88x » Fri Nov 19, 2021 2:57 am

Peregrine01 wrote:
RCM88x wrote:Predicably, the Cavs blew their load in the 3rd and completely ran out of gas in the 4th.

Still a pretty good showing by a team missing 5 of their top 8 rotation players.


They look like a better team without Sexton.


Yep

Guess I gotta take back what I said about the pair earlier, Garland has been a lot better than I anticipated this year and sexton has struggled significantly.

I still think Sexton is worth keeping around but his role needs to be reduced if he's going to be providing worthwhile value going forward.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#411 » by Outside » Fri Nov 19, 2021 3:24 am

Jokic is a better LeBron than LeBron. LeBron is no longer the best at doing what LeBron does.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#412 » by falcolombardi » Fri Nov 19, 2021 4:12 am

Outside wrote:Jokic is a better LeBron than LeBron. LeBron is no longer the best at doing what LeBron does.


i would be very impressed if he was, being 36 and injured

or do you mean that current jokic is a better player or team/floor raiser than peak lebron? (which i would disagree with but would be a fun topic to discuss)
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#413 » by Outside » Fri Nov 19, 2021 5:44 am

falcolombardi wrote:
Outside wrote:Jokic is a better LeBron than LeBron. LeBron is no longer the best at doing what LeBron does.


i would be very impressed if he was, being 36 and injured

or do you mean that current jokic is a better player or team/floor raiser than peak lebron? (which i would disagree with but would be a fun topic to discuss)


Not peak LeBron, just LeBron in his current state when he's healthy. I mean, last year, before he got hurt, people were talking up LeBron as an MVP candidate. I thought he was fading significantly before he got hurt, but as far as the ability to be the direct engine of offense, racking up points, assists, and rebounds with efficiency, Jokic does that better now and has been doing it better since last season. It just struck me watching the Denver-Philly game that that's what Jokic was doing. He's a better passer than LeBron (no minor thing to say), a better rebounder, a more efficient scorer, and he does them all at greater volume than LeBron.

I'd just never looked at it that way. It's just been a given for so long that LeBron is the box score monster in that role, that it sort of made me reset to think that he's no longer the best at that.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#414 » by eminence » Fri Nov 19, 2021 5:48 am

If you'd told me before the season the Warriors were 13-2... Well A) I wouldn't have believed it, and B) I would've thought Steph was on his way to sealing up the MVP. But damn Jokic.

I could use a good MVP race, feels like it's been awhile since we've had one.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#415 » by Outside » Fri Nov 19, 2021 6:14 am

Some thoughts about the "way too early to discuss MVP" race...

Jokic is the king of direct offensive impact. Steph is the king of combined direct and indirect offensive impact.

As great as Durant is, he doesn't drive offenses the way Jokic and Curry do.

I gotta think that Giannis will be part of this. If they all stay healthy and all play the way they can, it could be an epic race.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#416 » by Doctor MJ » Fri Nov 19, 2021 1:19 pm

Fun stat:

Steph Curry has a total +/- so far of +203.

2nd in the league (Luke Kennard) is +139.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#417 » by cupcakesnake » Fri Nov 19, 2021 1:25 pm

Outside wrote:Some thoughts about the "way too early to discuss MVP" race...

Jokic is the king of direct offensive impact. Steph is the king of combined direct and indirect offensive impact.

As great as Durant is, he doesn't drive offenses the way Jokic and Curry do.

I gotta think that Giannis will be part of this. If they all stay healthy and all play the way they can, it could be an epic race.


Ya pretty insane that with the season Durant is having... he can't even really touch what 2 other players are doing offensively. With Jokic continuing where he left off offensively and starting to look that this is just what he's going to do for his whole prime... we have 2 offensive GOAT candidates playing at the same time. 2 super unique offensive players, playing in an era where many fearmongered over the homogenization of offense.

- I think Jimmy Butler is hanging in on the MVP race too. It looked for a second that Butler was injured and Miami was taking a dip, but then he came back early from injury to join a fresh 4 game win streak to get them back to 4-4. Heat Culture babyyyy.
- Milwaukee will have a big month at some point and get up there in the standings and Giannis will get his deserved attention then.
- Paul George has been quite good and everyone will be impressed if the CLips continue to win without Kawhi.
- Rudy Gobert quietly putting up his best season maybe.

But yeah Jokic and Curry have taken a big early lead in this race with Durant shocked he's not winning it playing at this pace!
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#418 » by Texas Chuck » Fri Nov 19, 2021 2:17 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:Fun stat:

Steph Curry has a total +/- so far of +203.

2nd in the league (Luke Kennard) is +139.



So Curry is already getting all the love around here and rightfully so obviously. But I love seeing Kennard has found a role on a team where he can succeed. Over on the trade board everyone killed the Clippers for that Kennard trade and then killed them harder on the extension and it sort of became a running meme about only Chuck likes Kennard and why?

But he's such a skilled and smart offensive player and because he has good size, teams can't just target him with immunity at the other end. And being a lefty, he just feels like a slightly poor man's Joe Ingles when I watch him. Doesn't have quite the same defense Joe used to have, but can shoot, can pass, really has a good feel for the game. Great pairing with what Mann brings on that 2nd unit.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#419 » by ShotCreator » Fri Nov 19, 2021 5:10 pm

Outside wrote:Some thoughts about the "way too early to discuss MVP" race...

Jokic is the king of direct offensive impact. Steph is the king of combined direct and indirect offensive impact.

As great as Durant is, he doesn't drive offenses the way Jokic and Curry do.

I gotta think that Giannis will be part of this. If they all stay healthy and all play the way they can, it could be an epic race.

Nah not really. Giannis is in the prehistoric era offensively compared to Jokic and Curry and Jokic is playing all league defense.

If Jokic keeps this up, no one in league history will probably even be comparable and Curry would just have to have enough highlight games like last night(because his duds get buried by wins) to get his narrative MVP.

No one is on Jokic’ level right now and should be expected to even come close.

There’s nothing epic and unpredictable about what’s about to happen.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#420 » by 70sFan » Fri Nov 19, 2021 5:15 pm

ShotCreator wrote:
Outside wrote:Some thoughts about the "way too early to discuss MVP" race...

Jokic is the king of direct offensive impact. Steph is the king of combined direct and indirect offensive impact.

As great as Durant is, he doesn't drive offenses the way Jokic and Curry do.

I gotta think that Giannis will be part of this. If they all stay healthy and all play the way they can, it could be an epic race.

Nah not really. Giannis is in the prehistoric era offensively compared to Jokic and Curry and Jokic is playing all league defense.

If Jokic keeps this up, no one in league history will probably even be comparable and Curry would just have to have enough highlight games like last night(because his duds get buried by wins) to get his narrative MVP.

No one is on Jokic’ level right now and should be expected to even come close.

There’s nothing epic and unpredictable about what’s about to happen.

So it's the time when we can finally say that the recency bias has come back this season?

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