2023-24 NBA Season Discussion

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Re: 2023-24 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#4001 » by Statlanta » Fri Jun 21, 2024 1:12 am

ronnymac2 wrote:I find it unsettling and weird that non-Celtic fans are happy about the Finals result. Tatum - though overrated - seems like a good guy and a role model and all that. Jrue is obviously as professional as they come.

But Brown complains a lot on and off the court and was given $300 million to have fans not select him as an All-Star. Porzingis is arrogant (in the uncool way), unreliable, and possibly a criminal. Horford is a dirty player who has attempted to hurt multiple players; he's also played like a disgrace to his frontcourt position for about a decade now. And the rest are interchangeable mediocrities.


I thought the discourse was that they were a boring team that won because of injuries. I don't think anyone hates the Boston players and even in your description I think only Porzingis has the unlikeable stuff but even he has a redemption story because of his injury history and fall off of being a great prospect.

People are not happy about the Finals as you can tell by the tone of the GB threads. There was no narrative that was tested(even last year the no defense Center narrative was tested) and no significant memorable highlight.
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Re: 2023-24 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#4002 » by LukaTheGOAT » Fri Jun 21, 2024 6:09 am

sp6r=underrated wrote:
RCM88x wrote:
sp6r=underrated wrote:
When Jordan retired the NBA lost a lot of fans permanently because they followed the sport primarily because of Jordan. I've read a lot of your posts and have always gotten the impression your interest in the NBA is heavily driven by your interest in Lebron. Do you think you'll still follow the NBA when he retires.

I don't mean this as an insult in any way btw, just curious. I'm trying to figure out what the impact will be of the central figure of Lebron leaving.

Jokic, Embiid, Giannis are amazing but I don't think any of them have the mass appeal of Lebron or even Curry.


My NBA interest is primarily driven by the Cavs being relevant. Lebron is a curiosity because of his place in history, not the driver. Sometimes those things have correlated quite closely.

However, I do think this brings up another unique element of NBA fandom that isn't as relevant in football. I've heard it called Superhero syndrome, where fans interest are primarily driven by one player, and once that player is no longer playing, their interest wanes. In an era where there is a unique lack of young, American elite players, I think this has hurt the NBA in acquiring new young fans. Especially in todays media landscape where everything has to be analyzed, ranked, compared, contrasted, criticized, etc... Rarely does mass media (if you can even call it that anymore) stop to appreciate the here and now. Not to say there was a lot of criticism of Jordan in his early years. But today, it's impossible for any young player to be talked about without comparisons to former guys (often by former guys). Just creates an atmosphere that isn't as accepting of new people.

There are no young American prospects that have ATG trajectory currently, ANT maybe the closest but that might just be due the vacuum that currently exists. That may not be a problem for the NBA as a whole, but it certainly is a problem for the average American sports fan.



Thanks for the response. And I think you're superhero point is important and I do think the NBA is more dependent on it than most sports leagues.

As an aside no athlete in my life ever got the coverage Jordan did. I'd argue that the scrutiny someone like Lebron received isn't so much the outlier as the utter free pass MJ did. It didn't make sense then. It doesn't make sense now. Him being a scumbag was almost treated as a compliment which I'll never understand.


Was MJ considered a scumbag? The whole "Be like Mike," campaign and the way his smile was emphasized, seemed to suggest MJ was just a generally swell guy. There were maybe the occasional horror stories that gained more steam later on. But as someone not alive for MJ's prime, that is the impression I got.
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Re: 2023-24 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#4003 » by Doctor MJ » Fri Jun 21, 2024 4:58 pm

LukaTheGOAT wrote:
sp6r=underrated wrote:
RCM88x wrote:
My NBA interest is primarily driven by the Cavs being relevant. Lebron is a curiosity because of his place in history, not the driver. Sometimes those things have correlated quite closely.

However, I do think this brings up another unique element of NBA fandom that isn't as relevant in football. I've heard it called Superhero syndrome, where fans interest are primarily driven by one player, and once that player is no longer playing, their interest wanes. In an era where there is a unique lack of young, American elite players, I think this has hurt the NBA in acquiring new young fans. Especially in todays media landscape where everything has to be analyzed, ranked, compared, contrasted, criticized, etc... Rarely does mass media (if you can even call it that anymore) stop to appreciate the here and now. Not to say there was a lot of criticism of Jordan in his early years. But today, it's impossible for any young player to be talked about without comparisons to former guys (often by former guys). Just creates an atmosphere that isn't as accepting of new people.

There are no young American prospects that have ATG trajectory currently, ANT maybe the closest but that might just be due the vacuum that currently exists. That may not be a problem for the NBA as a whole, but it certainly is a problem for the average American sports fan.



Thanks for the response. And I think you're superhero point is important and I do think the NBA is more dependent on it than most sports leagues.

As an aside no athlete in my life ever got the coverage Jordan did. I'd argue that the scrutiny someone like Lebron received isn't so much the outlier as the utter free pass MJ did. It didn't make sense then. It doesn't make sense now. Him being a scumbag was almost treated as a compliment which I'll never understand.


Was MJ considered a scumbag? The whole "Be like Mike," campaign and the way his smile was emphasized, seemed to suggest MJ was just a generally swell guy. There were maybe the occasional horror stories that gained more steam later on. But as someone not alive for MJ's prime, that is the impression I got.


So, in terms of "scumbag", I'd be more inclined to use the term "obsessively competitive a**hole". Not really going to get into whether "scumbag" is literally an incorrect term, but what was the case was that people venerated Jordan for his ultra-competitiveness and so examples of him being inappropriately competitive (I remember a story of him cheating at boardgames while a guest at another family's Thanksgiving when he was in college, or something like that) let people to have a kind of "boys will be boys" attitude toward Jordan's anti-social behavior. "That's how you've got to be if you want to be the BEST!".

The fact that this existed in the same world where you had "Be like Mike" ads is telling about the media world as it existed back then. It was a time where there was still separation between what those near the game knew, and what advertisers could sell to families.

I would draw the analogy to Old Hollywood Stars in the pre-tabloid era, where the press basically worked for the studios because people bought glamour without seeming to have any resentment. Of course there were still scandals that could bring a star down, and thus there were proto-paparazzi, but the take-down engine wasn't the well-oiled machine it is today.

I would say that by the '80s, when Jordan was becoming a global french-fry-selling superstar, the paparazzi was pretty mature in general, but it wasn't focused on sports as much as it was focused on female celebrities. To this day famous men still don't get targeted like famous women of course, but it's getting closer.
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Re: 2023-24 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#4004 » by Bank Shot » Sat Jun 22, 2024 2:45 am

I was looking forward to reading the All-Season award thread. I thought there was a lot of good discussion during the year in this thread and was expecting the same there. Unfortunately, after reading the first page, it just looks like a bunch of LeBron guys putting Jokic as low as possible to prevent him from winning. Disappointing stuff.
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Re: 2023-24 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#4005 » by jalengreen » Sat Jun 22, 2024 3:05 am

Bank Shot wrote:I was looking forward to reading the All-Season award thread. I thought there was a lot of good discussion during the year in this thread and was expecting the same there. Unfortunately, after reading the first page, it just looks like a bunch of LeBron guys putting Jokic as low as possible to prevent him from winning. Disappointing stuff.


This doesn't really line up with the ballots imo

Jokic votes in right now: 3, 1, 1, 2, 1, 1, 3, 3/4, 4, 1, UNR, 1, {and i expect to put him at 2 myself}

Yeah I think leaving Jokic unranked is wild tbh but whatever, that's one ballot. Ultimately basically everyone has him top 3, and if you think it's fully unreasonable to consider Shai and Luka over him then that's a position that you should probably defend.
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Re: 2023-24 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#4006 » by AEnigma » Sat Jun 22, 2024 3:10 am

jalengreen wrote:
Bank Shot wrote:I was looking forward to reading the All-Season award thread. I thought there was a lot of good discussion during the year in this thread and was expecting the same there. Unfortunately, after reading the first page, it just looks like a bunch of LeBron guys putting Jokic as low as possible to prevent him from winning. Disappointing stuff.

This doesn't really line up with the ballots imo

Jokic votes in right now: 3, 1, 1, 2, 1, 1, 3, 3/4, 4, 1, UNR, 1, {and i expect to put him at 2 myself}

Yeah I think leaving Jokic unranked is wild tbh but whatever, that's one ballot. Ultimately basically everyone has him top 3, and if you think it's fully unreasonable to consider Shai and Luka over him then that's a position that you should probably defend.

Lebron also has four votes… and all of them put Jokic at #1. :crazy:
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Re: 2023-24 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#4007 » by Bank Shot » Sat Jun 22, 2024 3:21 am

jalengreen wrote:
Bank Shot wrote:I was looking forward to reading the All-Season award thread. I thought there was a lot of good discussion during the year in this thread and was expecting the same there. Unfortunately, after reading the first page, it just looks like a bunch of LeBron guys putting Jokic as low as possible to prevent him from winning. Disappointing stuff.


This doesn't really line up with the ballots imo

Jokic votes in right now: 3, 1, 1, 2, 1, 1, 3, 3/4, 4, 1, UNR, 1, {and i expect to put him at 2 myself}

Yeah I think leaving Jokic unranked is wild tbh but whatever, that's one ballot. Ultimately basically everyone has him top 3, and if you think it's fully unreasonable to consider Shai and Luka over him then that's a position that you should probably defend.


No, I think that is a defendable position. I had SGA very close to Jokic in the regular season and he was very good in the playoffs. I think the Luka argument is weaker and more dependent on team success since he wasn't that good in the playoffs outside of the Wolves series, but he did make the finals, so there is an argument there.

It's more about who is putting Jokic low. It's all the guys from the LeBron thread who have been going at him ever since he started getting compared to LeBron. The votes just feel very fanboy-ish.
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Re: 2023-24 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#4008 » by Colbinii » Sat Jun 22, 2024 3:34 am

Bank Shot wrote:I was looking forward to reading the All-Season award thread. I thought there was a lot of good discussion during the year in this thread and was expecting the same there. Unfortunately, after reading the first page, it just looks like a bunch of LeBron guys putting Jokic as low as possible to prevent him from winning. Disappointing stuff.


You should re-read. I've been a massive LeBron proponent for a decade on this forum.
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Re: 2023-24 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#4009 » by Special_Puppy » Sat Jun 22, 2024 4:05 am

jalengreen wrote:
Bank Shot wrote:I was looking forward to reading the All-Season award thread. I thought there was a lot of good discussion during the year in this thread and was expecting the same there. Unfortunately, after reading the first page, it just looks like a bunch of LeBron guys putting Jokic as low as possible to prevent him from winning. Disappointing stuff.


This doesn't really line up with the ballots imo

Jokic votes in right now: 3, 1, 1, 2, 1, 1, 3, 3/4, 4, 1, UNR, 1, {and i expect to put him at 2 myself}

Yeah I think leaving Jokic unranked is wild tbh but whatever, that's one ballot. Ultimately basically everyone has him top 3, and if you think it's fully unreasonable to consider Shai and Luka over him then that's a position that you should probably defend.


It’s tough. Luka advanced to the WCF while Jokic+SGA both lost not because Luka played better than them (IMO Luka played materially worse than them that round) but because the non-Luka+non-Kyrie Mavs had an awesome series. It feels weird to reward Luka and punish Jokic+SGA because Luka’s supporting cast happened to perform better that particular round. But also, Luka objectively had a great series against the TWolves and sustained a high level of play for 4 rounds (only player to do that this playoffs IMO). 100% reasonable to put Luka over Jokic because of that.
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Re: 2023-24 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#4010 » by falcolombardi » Sat Jun 22, 2024 4:21 am

Is actually wild jokic is potentially about to win a second poy award without going further than 1st/2nd round

I feel like we crowned jokic a bit too prematurely as being clearly above his peers after the 2023 ring and now we are tying ourselves into pretzels to justify why he seemingly is an automatic poy vote now regardless of underperformances like the minny series
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Re: 2023-24 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#4011 » by Colbinii » Sat Jun 22, 2024 4:30 am

falcolombardi wrote:Is actually wild jokic is potentially about to win a second poy award without going further than 1st/2nd round

I feel like we crowned jokic a bit too prematurely as being clearly above his peers after the 2023 ring and now we are tying ourselves into pretzels to justify why he seemingly is an automatic poy vote now regardless of underperformances like the minny series


What are you talking about? He won POY before 2023 and while losing in the 1st round.

Most places were **** on Jokic prior to winning a title saying it was impossible to win a title with a center like him.
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Re: 2023-24 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#4012 » by jalengreen » Sat Jun 22, 2024 4:50 am

falcolombardi wrote:Is actually wild jokic is potentially about to win a second poy award without going further than 1st/2nd round

I feel like we crowned jokic a bit too prematurely above his peers after the 2023 ring and now we are tying ourselves into pretzels to justify why he seemingly is an automatic poy vote now regardless of underperformances like the minny series


Meh

You have the RS MVP who was eliminated R2

The MVP runner-up who was eliminated R2

The MVP third place finisher who was a Finals loser, but really didn't have that noteworthy of an individual playoff run (so it's not an easy 2018 lebron type of case) beyond the MIN series imo

And the champions who didn't have an MVP level player, nor anyone who had that noteworthy of a playoff run either

Obviously there's more to it than what I'm saying here, but point is that no one has that great of a case on the surface compared to past POYs, which unsurprisingly leaves it pretty up in the air. And it's not that surprising to see people lean towards the probable best player in the world who just won MVP. Ultimately I'd think of it as a relatively "weak" POY regardless of who wins (and that might be an interesting side discussion comparing it to past POYs)

End of the day this would be Embiid's award if he stayed healthy but alas
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Re: 2023-24 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#4013 » by MyUniBroDavis » Sat Jun 22, 2024 4:59 am

Statlanta wrote:
ronnymac2 wrote:I find it unsettling and weird that non-Celtic fans are happy about the Finals result. Tatum - though overrated - seems like a good guy and a role model and all that. Jrue is obviously as professional as they come.

But Brown complains a lot on and off the court and was given $300 million to have fans not select him as an All-Star. Porzingis is arrogant (in the uncool way), unreliable, and possibly a criminal. Horford is a dirty player who has attempted to hurt multiple players; he's also played like a disgrace to his frontcourt position for about a decade now. And the rest are interchangeable mediocrities.


I thought the discourse was that they were a boring team that won because of injuries. I don't think anyone hates the Boston players and even in your description I think only Porzingis has the unlikeable stuff but even he has a redemption story because of his injury history and fall off of being a great prospect.

People are not happy about the Finals as you can tell by the tone of the GB threads. There was no narrative that was tested(even last year the no defense Center narrative was tested) and no significant memorable highlight.


tatum is very clearly unlikable because he is very corny lol
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Re: 2023-24 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#4014 » by lessthanjake » Sat Jun 22, 2024 6:21 am

falcolombardi wrote:Is actually wild jokic is potentially about to win a second poy award without going further than 1st/2nd round

I feel like we crowned jokic a bit too prematurely as being clearly above his peers after the 2023 ring and now we are tying ourselves into pretzels to justify why he seemingly is an automatic poy vote now regardless of underperformances like the minny series


I wouldn’t be so sure Jokic is about to win POY. I’m sure there will be more voters, and perhaps some strategic voters have already shot their shot and the remaining vote will be more Jokic-friendly, but by my count right now it’s very close but Jokic is not actually in the lead.
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Re: 2023-24 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#4015 » by Peregrine01 » Sun Jun 23, 2024 3:24 pm

Bank Shot wrote:I was looking forward to reading the All-Season award thread. I thought there was a lot of good discussion during the year in this thread and was expecting the same there. Unfortunately, after reading the first page, it just looks like a bunch of LeBron guys putting Jokic as low as possible to prevent him from winning. Disappointing stuff.


I think it's mostly a few posters here who post 50x a day that's really doing that so they seem to have an outsized influence on the overall narrative. They make themselves pretty obvious though so just ignore them.
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Re: 2023-24 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#4016 » by Special_Puppy » Sun Jun 23, 2024 4:09 pm

falcolombardi wrote:Is actually wild jokic is potentially about to win a second poy award without going further than 1st/2nd round

I feel like we crowned jokic a bit too prematurely as being clearly above his peers after the 2023 ring and now we are tying ourselves into pretzels to justify why he seemingly is an automatic poy vote now regardless of underperformances like the minny series


Because Jokic voters don't think he underperformed in the Minny series.
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Re: 2023-24 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#4017 » by Colbinii » Sun Jun 23, 2024 4:51 pm

Special_Puppy wrote:
falcolombardi wrote:Is actually wild jokic is potentially about to win a second poy award without going further than 1st/2nd round

I feel like we crowned jokic a bit too prematurely as being clearly above his peers after the 2023 ring and now we are tying ourselves into pretzels to justify why he seemingly is an automatic poy vote now regardless of underperformances like the minny series


Because Jokic voters don't think he underperformed in the Minny series.


That isn't true. I voted Jokic 1st but it isn't like he was perfect.

There are no Prime/Peak LeBron James this year. Everyone has flaws--SGA/Luka/Jokic included.
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Re: 2023-24 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#4018 » by Colbinii » Sun Jun 23, 2024 6:25 pm

Boston ended the post-season with a simple 8.85 Rel Net Rtg. Context to the numbers:

-No Porzingis for most of post-season
-No Butler in MIA series
-No Haliburton for 1/2 of series
-No Mitchell for 2/5 of CLE series
-No Allen for CLE series

For comparison, the 2015 Warriors ended the post-season with a simple 8.31 Rel Net Rtg. Context to the numbers:

-No Jrue in the NOP series
-No Conley for 1 game in MEM series
-No K-Love for CLE series
-No Kyrie for 5/6 of CLE series

It is definitely an interesting comparison at face value. I think Boston had an easier road to the Finals but Dallas was a better finals opponent than Cleveland without Kyrie/Love.
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Re: 2023-24 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#4019 » by Dr Positivity » Sun Jun 23, 2024 9:21 pm

I think 15 Rockets and Grizzlies are better opponents than any of the Celtics conference ones when you consider the injuries. The Mavs are a better team than Cavs without Kyrie and Love, however the Cavs were a bad matchup for the Warriors, while the Celtics were a bad matchup for the Mavs.

20 Lakers would be closest to me in terms of weak competition when considering the Heat were not at 100% and the Nuggets and Rockets matched up relatively poorly with them.
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Re: 2023-24 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#4020 » by jalengreen » Mon Jun 24, 2024 2:23 pm

Dr Positivity wrote:I think 15 Rockets and Grizzlies are better opponents than any of the Celtics conference ones when you consider the injuries. The Mavs are a better team than Cavs without Kyrie and Love, however the Cavs were a bad matchup for the Warriors, while the Celtics were a bad matchup for the Mavs.

20 Lakers would be closest to me in terms of weak competition when considering the Heat were not at 100% and the Nuggets and Rockets matched up relatively poorly with them.


2022? Injured Nuggets, injured Grizzlies, Mavs team that matched up poorly (and just wasnt that good tbh). Finally faced a good team in Boston but could argue they matched up poorly as well.

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