RealGM Top 100 List #5

[Baller2014]

No, I make it clear in my post that Pen is doing that. I am merely doing what a lot of posters here are doing, providing a courtesy count for anyone curious. I was being polite. Please do me the same favour. It's just when making a count, like everyone else who makes a count, I have to apply my own judgment, because sometimes people are vague about whether it's their official vote, e.g. "at this point I'm leaning to X". I mentioned you specifically in case someone said "why did you include that? That wasn't an official vote".

[Texas Chuck]

So I was pretty torn betwen Shaq and Duncan at #4 and these are still the 2 guys for me. Magic's lack of longevity keep him just out of the mix--same with Lebron. Was leaning Duncan.

Im a guy who thinks the whole career matters. Not just prime and absolutely not just peak. So that's an edge to Duncan for me--not a huge one, but a clear one. But at the same time, I'd rather win 4-5 titles and struggle(relatively) for a decade than win 2-3 and be a fringe contender for 15. In this case obviously the way it played out Duncan got 5 titles and his team won 50+ every year in the toughest conference in NBA history. I feel this achievement is not getting the credit it deserves. Its a staggering team achievement and Duncan is the single largest factor in it. But if I try and imagine a slightly different world for Shaq and Duncan its easy to see the very real possibility that Shaq gives me as many if not more legit shots at a title.

Shaq's offensive dominance at his peak and in his prime is really hard to overlook. And his ability to force the other team into completely changing everything they do in an effort to deal with him was as disruptive as any player ever. I don't care so much that he wasn't always in shape. Sure he could have been an even better player in which case we wouldn't be debating him at #5 because he'd be in Mike/Russell/Kareem talk as a legit GOAT. But just looking at his actual career he was still incredibly productive. I don't know quite how much weight to put on the Kobe stuff.

Duncan's just a great player. I think his defense is getting badly underrated because of all the focus on KG's horizontal defense. That's great for KG and is certainly a mark in his favor and I will love discussing it more as he becomes a more serious candidate. But so what if Duncan isn't playing defense the same way? Neither did Deke and when we get to him we will see just how dominant he was defensively. I can't look past a guy whose team was a top 3 defense every single year of his prime. Yes Pop and the rest of team(especially Admiral) are parts of that, but Duncan is obviously had tremendous defensive impact in his own right and I hate to think because he does it differently than KG that he's viewed as a worse defender. And while Duncan was never the most feared offensive player in the league he was still a really effective weapon again.

But Duncan doesnt peak as high. At their best he's not as good as Shaq. He just isnt. So to conclude this, if had an NBA franchise and got to pick either guy as a rookie I'm choosing Duncan every time, but for ranking players I'm going to go with.....

Official Vote: The Big Aristotle, Shaquille O'Neal.

[Purch]

In general it Usally goes Shaq/Hakeem/Duncan or Shaq/Duncan/Hakeem for me. There's very few players in nba history who can move past Shaq in my eyes due to the share dominance of his peak. That being said he never really moves up higher than that, because I always get the feeling he underachieved giving his ability, mostly due to his work ethic

[ardee]

Vote: Earvin Magic Johnson

This was between him and Duncan to me. I basically go with Magic here because I think from '85 to '91 he put up a consistent stretch of GOAT level basketball that Duncan never matched. As much as Duncan supporters rave about his '01 to '07 prime, he doesn't really have a consistent prime stretch. He was injured in 2005 and arguably outplayed by his own teammate in the Playoffs. 2006 he was a shadow of himself in the regular season.

Really, Duncan IMO has three, maybe four seasons that are on the same level as a prime Magic: 2001, 2002, 2003 and 2007.

Now Duncan obviously has a bunch of other solid old man years, but going off rico's post earlier: longevity is great but to me the prime gap is more important. Having 6-7 years of a prime Magic who is the best offensive player in the league gives you a better chance of winning titles than a few years of prime Duncan, along with a series of lesser years where he gives you a few percent chance of winning the title.

It's close, it's not as if Duncan's longevity doesn't matter. These guys are even in a lot of ways, including ability to lift lesser supporting casts: check Magic's teams from '89 to '91. Those are nice names but you have to watch the games to see how much guys like Scott and Cooper depended on Magic to help them score. Magic's post-Kareem work more than matches '01-'03 Duncan on a bad team.

So yeah, I could go either way here, and probably will vote for Duncan in a runoff against Shaq. But for now, this is my vote.

[Purch]

Vote: Earvin Magic Johnson

This was between him and Duncan to me. I basically go with Magic here because I think from '85 to '91 he put up a consistent stretch of GOAT level basketball that Duncan never matched. As much as Duncan supporters rave about his '01 to '07 prime, he doesn't really have a consistent prime stretch. He was injured in 2005 and arguably outplayed by his own teammate in the Playoffs. 2006 he was a shadow of himself in the regular season.

Really, Duncan IMO has three, maybe four seasons that are on the same level as a prime Magic: 2001, 2002, 2003 and 2007.

Now Duncan obviously has a bunch of other solid old man years, but going off rico's post earlier: longevity is great but to me the prime gap is more important. Having 6-7 years of a prime Magic who is the best offensive player in the league gives you a better chance of winning titles than a few years of prime Duncan, along with a series of lesser years where he gives you a few percent chance of winning the title.

It's close, it's not as if Duncan's longevity doesn't matter. These guys are even in a lot of ways, including ability to lift lesser supporting casts: check Magic's teams from '89 to '91. Those are nice names but you have to watch the games to see how much guys like Scott and Cooper depended on Magic to help them score. Magic's post-Kareem work more than matches '01-'03 Duncan on a bad team.

So yeah, I could go either way here, and probably will vote for Duncan in a runoff against Shaq. But for now, this is my vote.

In your opinion how many candidates here have a post Prime year as impressive as Duncan 2013 season?

[ardee]

Vote: Earvin Magic Johnson

This was between him and Duncan to me. I basically go with Magic here because I think from '85 to '91 he put up a consistent stretch of GOAT level basketball that Duncan never matched. As much as Duncan supporters rave about his '01 to '07 prime, he doesn't really have a consistent prime stretch. He was injured in 2005 and arguably outplayed by his own teammate in the Playoffs. 2006 he was a shadow of himself in the regular season.

Really, Duncan IMO has three, maybe four seasons that are on the same level as a prime Magic: 2001, 2002, 2003 and 2007.

Now Duncan obviously has a bunch of other solid old man years, but going off rico's post earlier: longevity is great but to me the prime gap is more important. Having 6-7 years of a prime Magic who is the best offensive player in the league gives you a better chance of winning titles than a few years of prime Duncan, along with a series of lesser years where he gives you a few percent chance of winning the title.

It's close, it's not as if Duncan's longevity doesn't matter. These guys are even in a lot of ways, including ability to lift lesser supporting casts: check Magic's teams from '89 to '91. Those are nice names but you have to watch the games to see how much guys like Scott and Cooper depended on Magic to help them score. Magic's post-Kareem work more than matches '01-'03 Duncan on a bad team.

So yeah, I could go either way here, and probably will vote for Duncan in a runoff against Shaq. But for now, this is my vote.

In your opinion how many candidates here have a post Prime year as impressive as Duncan 2013 season?

Well unfortunately Magic doesn't qualify I guess because we never saw post-prime Magic.

Shaq I would say was out of his prime in 2005, he could qualify. If you consider KG as a candidate, I suppose he is since he is being discussed... His 2012 season. Not to mention Kobe in 2013, or 2010 if you consider it past his prime.

[colts18]

Basically, I feel like LeBron from 2009 to 2014 is an unreal player I might vote for (if I had a vote.)

You do have a vote.

There are some outliers in here with Shaq's defense ... I'm sorry, but he wasn't consistent and he wasn't great. Growing up, he was my favorite player, actually, and I know him as well as anyone. He was not an "elite' rim protector. He was too lazy for that. He could get some flashy blocks and push people around, but the pick and roll killed him, he saved himself for the offensive end, he didn't commit, and in his prime people loved to talk about how he had no peer who could go at him on offense too (like 98 to 04, not earlier.) Defensive metrics and team ratings are in agreement with this. For a center, Shaq was average or above average on defense, sometimes great, but that was rare (mostly 2000.) I know one stat people love to use is how opposing centers scored less versus the Lakers, but Shaq was far and away the best scoring center, and he never had to defend himself. That made it look a lot better.

Not true at all. Shaq's numbers didn't have much of an effect on the opposing center numbers. Here is a hypothetical.

Shaq: 70 games played at 28 PPG
Backup: 12 games played at 13 PPG
rest of centers: 82 games * 29 at 13 PPG


In that scenario, Shaq has played just 2.8% of the games at center. The league average for centers would go up from 13 PPG to 13.4 PPG. Hardly a difference. Plus I showed the stats of Shaq's man defense relative to the opponents average and they were great. Shaq's man defense in his prime was holding down centers even more than Mutombo or the Twin Towers.

[Jim Naismith]

Vote: Earvin Magic Johnson

This was between him and Duncan to me. I basically go with Magic here because I think from '85 to '91 he put up a consistent stretch of GOAT level basketball that Duncan never matched. As much as Duncan supporters rave about his '01 to '07 prime, he doesn't really have a consistent prime stretch. He was injured in 2005 and arguably outplayed by his own teammate in the Playoffs. 2006 he was a shadow of himself in the regular season.

Really, Duncan IMO has three, maybe four seasons that are on the same level as a prime Magic: 2001, 2002, 2003 and 2007.

How about LeBron '08-'14?

Why do you put Magic above LeBron?

[DQuinn1575]

Vote: Earvin Magic Johnson

The trouble I have with Magic that until 1986, when his usage increased, he really is a great point guard, but not a Top 10 all-time player.
Compare 84 and 85 to Stockton's 4 best years:


TS%/TRB%/AST%/USG%/DfRtg/WS per season
84-85 Magic 63.3/10.3/42.5/20.0/106 /11.5
88-91 Stockton 61.9/4.4/56.0/19.5/103/14.6




stockton is shooting almost as well, with similar usage, much higher assist, and better defense.

This is a Top 30 player of all-time; not a Top 10.

Magic has 80-85 - 6 years where he is at this level, and then 6 years where he shows as Top 10.



TS%/TRB%/AST%/USG%/DfRtg/WS per season

88-91 Stockton 61.9/4.4/56.0/19.5/103/14.6
80-85 Magic 60.8/11.9/34.6/103/12.1


He wasn't 1st team all-NBA by either the writers (official) or players (Sporting News) until 1983.

From 1983-85 he was solid Top 5 player in the league, but in the 3 years combined he got 8 first place votes for MVP-

Besides Bird definitely being better, guys like Moses, Doctor J, and Bernard King would have a case - so Magic is 2-5 in this top period.

Win shares for this time shows him 4th, behind Bird, sidney Moncrief, and Moses

http://bkref.com/tiny/9CJjD

for his first 6 years, he is 5th, trailing Bird,Moses,Kareem, and Doc, barely beating out Moncrief.
He is way behind Bird for his first 6 years in the league. Relatively same for 3, then has 3 seasons better.


http://bkref.com/tiny/WyVZL


So with Magic I get 6 years of Stockton/Moncrief, and 6 years of superstar.

It makes me put him behind Bird, LeBron, and Shaq.

[pancakes3]

My vote goes to Tim Duncan. Best resume IMO of players, which didnt voted. Slightly worse peak than Hakeem and Shaq, but more consistent prime, better longevity and less of-court stuff and shortcomings. 4 Championship, intangibles, leadership, two-way impact. All inclusive at elite level.

I think Magic has the best resume of the guys left. 5 rings, 3 MVP's, and most importantly: 3 finals MVPs. It's that extra finals MVP that really boosts Magic and Shaq over Duncan, Bird, Hakeem, and Kobe.

One of those Finals MVP is from 1980 where Kareem averaged 33 ppg, and missed game 6 where Magic scored 40 pts. Reportedly the tv network got the voters to change their votes so Magic could get the award on tv.
Even if he did deserve the award, you are basically given him the nod over 5 other players due to 1 game where he scored 42 points.

And 2 other finals games where he notched triple doubles. Kareem did have a great series but I don't think it's a media conspiracy that Magic undeservedly got the finals MVP. He earned it more than Parker or Leonard did theirs. But hey, agree to disagree. You think he sniped that as a media darling who got lucky. I see it as a GOAT performance from a transcendent rookie.

I really don't think the only reason you should give him the nod is that one game. I would appreciate it if you could state why he should be ahead of Bird and Shaq.

I think Bird has case contending with Magic. Larry arguably has a "robbed" FMVP from Maxwell in '81. In my opinion Magic gets the edge because despite being Tragic Johnson in '84, he owned the 80's. 5 rings. Unbelievable passer, great stats, and if possible understated that he was 6'8.

Why over Shaq? I just never got the feeling outside of the 3peat that Shaq was GOAT-caliber. I'll give Shaq his due that those 3 years are as impressive a 3 year run as anyone else in the league but what about the rest of that bell curve? In the 90's he was clearly good yet not quite in Hakeem's league. Post-3peat his game fell into a steady decline. For all his scoring prowess he only has 2 scoring titles. In Shaq's 20 year career he only showed up to the finals 6 times - losing 3 of them. Magic went 8 times, winning 5. It's just hard for me to put him as the #5 player of all time.

[Clyde Frazier]

Vote: Earvin Magic Johnson

This was between him and Duncan to me. I basically go with Magic here because I think from '85 to '91 he put up a consistent stretch of GOAT level basketball that Duncan never matched. As much as Duncan supporters rave about his '01 to '07 prime, he doesn't really have a consistent prime stretch. He was injured in 2005 and arguably outplayed by his own teammate in the Playoffs. 2006 he was a shadow of himself in the regular season.

Really, Duncan IMO has three, maybe four seasons that are on the same level as a prime Magic: 2001, 2002, 2003 and 2007.

Now Duncan obviously has a bunch of other solid old man years, but going off rico's post earlier: longevity is great but to me the prime gap is more important. Having 6-7 years of a prime Magic who is the best offensive player in the league gives you a better chance of winning titles than a few years of prime Duncan, along with a series of lesser years where he gives you a few percent chance of winning the title.

It's close, it's not as if Duncan's longevity doesn't matter. These guys are even in a lot of ways, including ability to lift lesser supporting casts: check Magic's teams from '89 to '91. Those are nice names but you have to watch the games to see how much guys like Scott and Cooper depended on Magic to help them score. Magic's post-Kareem work more than matches '01-'03 Duncan on a bad team.

So yeah, I could go either way here, and probably will vote for Duncan in a runoff against Shaq. But for now, this is my vote.

In your opinion how many candidates here have a post Prime year as impressive as Duncan 2013 season?

Shaq's 09 season isn't quite as impressive, but the suns fountain of youth medical staff certainly revived the guy:

http://bkref.com/tiny/z9oVO

In the crazy west, they missed the playoffs at 46-36, but he still made all NBA 3rd team and production-wise was rather impressive. It's just a coincidence that they were both 36. Wasn't going for exact same age.

[ardee]

Vote: Earvin Magic Johnson

This was between him and Duncan to me. I basically go with Magic here because I think from '85 to '91 he put up a consistent stretch of GOAT level basketball that Duncan never matched. As much as Duncan supporters rave about his '01 to '07 prime, he doesn't really have a consistent prime stretch. He was injured in 2005 and arguably outplayed by his own teammate in the Playoffs. 2006 he was a shadow of himself in the regular season.

Really, Duncan IMO has three, maybe four seasons that are on the same level as a prime Magic: 2001, 2002, 2003 and 2007.

How about LeBron '08-'14?

Why do you put Magic above LeBron?

My bad, should've discussed LeBron as well. I guess there hasn't been as much talk about him as there has about others in this thread.

I would probably vote LeBron next actually if Magic made it in this thread, above Duncan.

Magic vs LeBron comes down, to me, as two offensive players who affect the game in very differing ways. I'm not hating or making an unreasonable statement, but one has to admit that as great as he is, his teammates tend to see a drop in their individual performance. Now normally that doesn't matter because he's a GOAT candidate anyway.... But when you look at a guy like Magic, who in his prime can give you ridiculous production anyway, but yet also causes a clear uptick in his team-mates' production as well.

I think a better way to look at it would be the team results Magic and LeBron had as leaders of a unipolar offense. In 1990, Magic's cast consisted of an older James Worthy, Byron Scott and AC Green as his 2-3-4 options. Worthy is still a good player obviously, but the others... That's not really amazing. Magic produces a 114 ORtg for the Lakers, +6 over the LA... That's better than anything LeBron has approached, even with BETTER teammates at Miami.

I just think Magic's offense is more conducive to great team results.

It's close, like I said, I'd probably vote LeBron next (internal debate with Duncan still raging), but it's Magic for now.

[colts18]

I'm not hating or making an unreasonable statement, but one has to admit that as great as he is, his teammates tend to see a drop in their individual performance.

You mean like how his team went from 66 wins to 19 wins without him. He was like 90% responsible for that drop unless you think old fat Shaq and old Big Z were the big catalysts of that team.

[Moonbeam]

My internet connection has been unreliable, so I'm sad to see I've missed a few votes. Can't complain about the results, though!

My number 5 votes goes to my second least favorite player of all-time, Shaquille O'Neal. While he ranks 7th in my formula ranking metric, I can't honestly put him any lower than 5th. Shaq at his peak was the single most dominant player of the last 20 years, in my view. His crazy athleticism was only trumped by his crazy strength, and when interested, he was completely unstoppable. I tend to value peak more than longevity, and it is for this reason that Shaq gets the nod over Magic Johnson, Tim Duncan, and (for now) LeBron James. Had he not been so blasé about the regular season after having won a few rings, he'd surely be even higher.

[shutupandjam]

Quick hypos:

If LeBron played the first 10 years of his career with Kareem, how many titles does he win?

If LeBron played with McHale/Maxwell, Parish, and DJ/Archibald for the first 10 years of his career how many titles does he win?

If LeBron was put on any team in the 40s, 50s, 60s, is he not winning literally every year? I mean, imagine anyone trying to guard LeBron in that era. MAYBE Russell could, but then you'd be able to exploit the matchup on your starting center.


No one has been able to match LeBron's ability to create offense. His combination of scoring and assisting baskets is unparalleled. Here's a list of players with career averages of at least 25 pts and 6 ast (pace adj per 36) in the RS since 1952:

1. LeBron James
2. Dwyane Wade

And here's a complete list of players with those career averages in the playoffs:

1. LeBron James

And players that have done this in a season:

1. LeBron James (9 times)
2. Dwyane Wade (5 times)
3. Michael Jordan (4 times)
4. Russell Westbrook (3 times)
4. Allen Iverson (3 times)
6. Derrick Rose (2 times)
7. Tiny Archibald (1 time)
7. Larry Bird (1 time)
7. Clyde Drexler (1 time)
7. Tracy McGrady (1 time)
7. Tony Parker (1 time)
7. Kyrie Irving (1 time)

Everyone else there but Bird is a guard - LeBron is an absolute matchup nightmare that doesn't give up an advantage on the defensive end because he can guard practically every position. This is why I believe he is arguably the most portable player in history and one of the easiest to build around - just get role players with focused skills (rebounding, defending, shooting, rim protecting) and you're a legit title contender in any era.

[Colbinii]

Magic vs LeBron comes down, to me, as two offensive players who affect the game in very differing ways. I'm not hating or making an unreasonable statement, but one has to admit that as great as he is, his teammates tend to see a drop in their individual performance. Now normally that doesn't matter because he's a GOAT candidate anyway.... But when you look at a guy like Magic, who in his prime can give you ridiculous production anyway, but yet also causes a clear uptick in his team-mates' production as well.

So you admit that the offense is close, but are you not factoring in defense? Just curious. LeBron has been a defensive anchor for a top 5 defense from 09-12.

Worthy was 28 that season, he wasn't "older". He put up his 2nd best PER of his career and most WS in his career that season. He was also all-nba 3rd team, so let's not call him over the hill. He was better than any second option LeBron had in cleveland.

So, even if offense is slightly in Magic's favor, what about ability to close out playoff games or defense come into account?

I am really confused on how I could possibly put Magic over LeBron at this point, I really am having a hard time.

[Texas Chuck]

Here's a list of players with career averages of at least 25 pts and 6 ast (pace adj per 36) in the RS since 1952:

Spoiler:

1. LeBron James
2. Dwyane Wade

And here's a complete list of players with those career averages in the playoffs:

1. LeBron James

And players that have done this in a season:

1. LeBron James (9 times)
2. Dwyane Wade (5 times)
3. Michael Jordan (4 times)
4. Russell Westbrook (3 times)
4. Allen Iverson (3 times)
6. Derrick Rose (2 times)
7. Tiny Archibald (1 time)
7. Larry Bird (1 time)
7. Clyde Drexler (1 time)
7. Tracy McGrady (1 time)
7. Tony Parker (1 time)
7. Kyrie Irving (1 time)

Why did you choose those arbitrary numbers? Do you think there is something particularly valuable in this arbitrary benchmark?

Lebron is a fantastic player, but be careful in setting the criteria in such a way as to influence the results.

[ronnymac2]

Vote: Shaquille O'Neal

I've been hemming and hawing on O'Neal vs. Olajuwon. To be honest, they are similar in terms of longevity. They had all-time great rookie years that I can't count as prime years simply because they were waayy too flawed. But then they have dominant sophomore seasons. They arrive. We've got superstars now. Top-5 players in the league. Each would stay like that for the next dozen years. Shaq hit his peak in year 8. Hakeem hit his peak in year 9. Even that part is similar.

I'm voting for Shaq because...well, it's so close that on any given day, one could be ahead of the other for me. Today is a Shaq day.

Really though, Shaq had a great career. He's a wonderful 5 vs. 5 basketball player because of his creative, unselfish passing, which he displayed from day 1. It took him a year or two to acclimate himself to handling doubles and triples and pseudo zones and the speed of the NBA defenses, but once he learned that, he did a great job of melding his own offensive talents with the talents of other players on his team. He had a lot of different types of offensive support in his career, with pretty much amazing results each time. Unipolar offense in 1994 with very little help (good ball-handling since Skiles was still there). 1995-1996, ridiculous offensive talent in the starting lineup, one of the best offensive players even in Penny, GOAT role player in HoGrant, and 2 40 percent shooters from 3. The offense was flawed for sure (only one reliable ball-handler, and they didn't need Anderson's individual offense), but they were dominant offensively. I'd say the flaws could be more detrimental for Penny since he had all the pressure as the lone ball-handler. Pretty amazing what Penny was able to do.

1997-1999, flawed but talented peripheral scorers but no true second creator, no system, no PF, and a really stupid team in general. Pretty sure they were top-3 in 1998 and 1999.

2000, finally gets an elite perimeter creator. Crap 3-point shooting and peripheral individual scoring talent, but excellent spacing because of the Triangle and having smarter players playing more minutes. That's basically how it'd be for all of his remaining Laker tenure, except at certain times when Fisher/Horry/Fox would get hot from 3 in the playoffs. Actually 2005 is similar but with better 3-point shooting (Eddie and Damon Jones were crazy that year) and Wade replacing Kobe as the elite creator.

Defensively, Shaq has clear weaknesses. Even when he was 100% svelte and fit, he was too big and too heavy to be able to shift his monentum and his weight to combat misdirection plays and pick-n-rolls. That's one part of his genetic talent that I always thought got brushed aside. He was perfectly built for offense in basketball, but he was always going to be limited defensively relative to the other all-time great defensive Cs. He'd be able to do the basic things like protect the rim, defend post players REALLY well, and blocks shots and knock people down, but shooters and misdirection would always give him trouble.

Just an observation: I sometimes wish teams had built around Shaq more like the 2001 team. For the first several years of his career, teams were built around him and had the same problem as the 2004 Mavericks had. If you've got Nash and Nowitzki, there's no point in adding additional scorers and creators and 20 PPG players. Just give them defensive support. I don' think Shaq had great defensive support pre-2001. Even in 2000, having Rice and Green at the forward positions is horrific. I would shifted the emphasis offensively and went more for a defense-first approach if I were building around Shaq, because I think I could build a dominant defense around Shaq and still have awesome offense even with...simpler talent.

I can't say I have ever seen one guy take more of a beating than Shaq. Check out highlights of Game 2 of the 2000 NBA Finals. Indiana was mauling him. If that stuff happened today to say, Andre Drummond or DeAndre Jordan, the guys fouling them would be kicked out of the game. I think Shaq took 39 foul shots that game. Still dropped 40 and 24.

[shutupandjam]

Why did you choose those arbitrary numbers? Do you think there is something particularly valuable in this arbitrary benchmark?

Lebron is a fantastic player, but be careful in setting the criteria in such a way as to influence the results.

Obviously I did this to show that LeBron is at the very elite end of the combination of scoring and assisting. I could do a similar exercise with say, Stockton and assist rates, Jordan and scoring rates, or Rodman and rebound rates, but everyone already knows they basically stand alone in these categories. I don't think LeBron's similar prowess in ability to score and assist is common knowledge in the same way those things are.

[Quotatious]

Vote count:

Shaquille O'Neal - 12 (colts18, PCProductions, O_6, tsherkin, therealbig3, RayBan-Sematra, MacGill, DQuinn1575, Chuck Texas, Moonbeam, ronnymac2, Notanoob)
Hakeem Olajuwon - 3 (90sAllDecade, Quotatious, fpliii)
Tim Duncan - 11 (Jaivl, magicmerl, Baller2014, batmana, Gregoire, penbeast0, trex_8063, Narigo, andrewww, Greatness, TrueLAfan)
Magic Johnson - 5 (JordansBulls, ardee, Clyde Frazier, GC Pantalones, john248)
Kevin Garnett 1 - (Doctor MJ)
LeBron James - 2 (SactoKingsFan, rico381)
Larry Bird - 1 (Warspite)

Total votes: 32

Shaq and Duncan still close, but seems like O'Neal will take it.