2021-22 NBA Season Discussion

[ShotCreator]

Some thoughts about the "way too early to discuss MVP" race...

Jokic is the king of direct offensive impact. Steph is the king of combined direct and indirect offensive impact.

As great as Durant is, he doesn't drive offenses the way Jokic and Curry do.

I gotta think that Giannis will be part of this. If they all stay healthy and all play the way they can, it could be an epic race.

Nah not really. Giannis is in the prehistoric era offensively compared to Jokic and Curry and Jokic is playing all league defense.

If Jokic keeps this up, no one in league history will probably even be comparable and Curry would just have to have enough highlight games like last night(because his duds get buried by wins) to get his narrative MVP.

No one is on Jokic’ level right now and should be expected to even come close.

There’s nothing epic and unpredictable about what’s about to happen.

So it's the time when we can finally say that the recency bias has come back this season?

What 35 PER, 15 BPM, literally scorching from every level of half court, elite, truly elite, generational passing, deflections, defensive awareness and dominant defensive rebounding player can you adequately compare Jokic to?


Jokic is coasting to games like last night. He’s not necessarily even on fire when you watch him. He really seems to just be this good.

There’s nothing he’s doing that I don’t think he can replicate with good health. This new skinny Jokic just seems to be an unprecedented monster who’s legitimately mastered a sport inside and out.

[Peregrine01]

Some thoughts about the "way too early to discuss MVP" race...

Jokic is the king of direct offensive impact. Steph is the king of combined direct and indirect offensive impact.

As great as Durant is, he doesn't drive offenses the way Jokic and Curry do.

I gotta think that Giannis will be part of this. If they all stay healthy and all play the way they can, it could be an epic race.

Nah not really. Giannis is in the prehistoric era offensively compared to Jokic and Curry and Jokic is playing all league defense.

If Jokic keeps this up, no one in league history will probably even be comparable and Curry would just have to have enough highlight games like last night(because his duds get buried by wins) to get his narrative MVP.

No one is on Jokic’ level right now and should be expected to even come close.

There’s nothing epic and unpredictable about what’s about to happen.

The only weakness I see in Jokic's offensive game is that too often he becomes passive. Sixers ran away with the game in the 3rd last night because Nuggets wings basically forgot to pass it to him in the 3rd - leading to some horrific offensive possessions ending with Barton and Gordon taking long twos. Jokic has gotten more aggressive but he's gotta be even more so, especially with the cast he has around him.

[falcolombardi]

Some thoughts about the "way too early to discuss MVP" race...

Jokic is the king of direct offensive impact. Steph is the king of combined direct and indirect offensive impact.

As great as Durant is, he doesn't drive offenses the way Jokic and Curry do.

I gotta think that Giannis will be part of this. If they all stay healthy and all play the way they can, it could be an epic race.

Nah not really. Giannis is in the prehistoric era offensively compared to Jokic and Curry and Jokic is playing all league defense.

If Jokic keeps this up, no one in league history will probably even be comparable and Curry would just have to have enough highlight games like last night(because his duds get buried by wins) to get his narrative MVP.

No one is on Jokic’ level right now and should be expected to even come close.

There’s nothing epic and unpredictable about what’s about to happen.

So it's the time when we can finally say that the recency bias has come back this season?

there is always a guy who breaks the regular season boxscore, usually in a unexpected way that gets all the hype and becomes a bit too much during the seasom. then when it predictably slows down, specially if it happens in playoffs there is blowback against said player and he gets underated

happened to giannis in his insane mvp years, to harden 40 point streaks before that, to curry in his goat scoring mvp seasons, Even to lebron before all that in 2009-2010

is jokic turn now, then it will be luka or maybe zion next

[ShotCreator]

Some thoughts about the "way too early to discuss MVP" race...

Jokic is the king of direct offensive impact. Steph is the king of combined direct and indirect offensive impact.

As great as Durant is, he doesn't drive offenses the way Jokic and Curry do.

I gotta think that Giannis will be part of this. If they all stay healthy and all play the way they can, it could be an epic race.

Nah not really. Giannis is in the prehistoric era offensively compared to Jokic and Curry and Jokic is playing all league defense.

If Jokic keeps this up, no one in league history will probably even be comparable and Curry would just have to have enough highlight games like last night(because his duds get buried by wins) to get his narrative MVP.

No one is on Jokic’ level right now and should be expected to even come close.

There’s nothing epic and unpredictable about what’s about to happen.

The only weakness I see in Jokic's offensive game is that too often he becomes passive. Sixers ran away with the game in the 3rd last night because Nuggets wings basically forgot to pass it to him in the 3rd - leading to some horrific offensive possessions ending with Barton and Gordon taking long twos. Jokic has gotten more aggressive but he's gotta be even more so, especially with the cast he has around him.

Thats just losing bias, which again, will feed into an narrative MVP for Curry, predictably.

You don’t expect a guy to do 50 point triple double just to win barely win a home game against an average depleted team like Philly last night.

Your criticism is simply losing. If they’re won, you would never say he would need to do more.

[eminence]

I'll not tear down Jokic, man's been crazy. But build up Steph, I think the only 'dud' so far covered up by winning is probably the home game vs Charlotte.

[70sFan]

Nah not really. Giannis is in the prehistoric era offensively compared to Jokic and Curry and Jokic is playing all league defense.

If Jokic keeps this up, no one in league history will probably even be comparable and Curry would just have to have enough highlight games like last night(because his duds get buried by wins) to get his narrative MVP.

No one is on Jokic’ level right now and should be expected to even come close.

There’s nothing epic and unpredictable about what’s about to happen.

So it's the time when we can finally say that the recency bias has come back this season?

What 35 PER, 15 BPM, literally scorching from every level of half court, elite, truly elite, generational passing, deflections, defensive awareness and dominant defensive rebounding player can you adequately compare Jokic to?


Jokic is coasting to games like last night. He’s not necessarily even on fire when you watch him. He really seems to just be this good.

There’s nothing he’s doing that I don’t think he can replicate with good health. This new skinny Jokic just seems to be an unprecedented monster who’s legitimately mastered a sport inside and out.

Almost like 15 games streaks like that never happened before. I'm a massive Jokic fan, but just stop this.

[parsnips33]

That 4th quarter from Steph was RIDICULOUS. Buried all his teammates duds on that one

[Colbinii]

So it's the time when we can finally say that the recency bias has come back this season?

What 35 PER, 15 BPM, literally scorching from every level of half court, elite, truly elite, generational passing, deflections, defensive awareness and dominant defensive rebounding player can you adequately compare Jokic to?


Jokic is coasting to games like last night. He’s not necessarily even on fire when you watch him. He really seems to just be this good.

There’s nothing he’s doing that I don’t think he can replicate with good health. This new skinny Jokic just seems to be an unprecedented monster who’s legitimately mastered a sport inside and out.

Almost like 15 games streaks like that never happened before. I'm a massive Jokic fan, but just stop this.

I think it is fair to say what Jokic is doing has never been done before given his uniqueness. I do agree with you 70sFan in that other 15-game stretches have been as dominate but in different fashion.

LeBron (2009 - 18 G): 15.9 BPM; 41.7 AST% to 9.7 TOV% on 33.5 USG%, 2.4 STL% and 2.4 BLK%

Jokic (2022 - 14 G): 15.1 BPM; 38.1 AST% to 14 TOV% on 31.4 USG%, 1.9 STL% and 2.9 BLK%

Jordan has a stretch in 1988 at 19 BPM over 15 games.

[70sFan]

What 35 PER, 15 BPM, literally scorching from every level of half court, elite, truly elite, generational passing, deflections, defensive awareness and dominant defensive rebounding player can you adequately compare Jokic to?


Jokic is coasting to games like last night. He’s not necessarily even on fire when you watch him. He really seems to just be this good.

There’s nothing he’s doing that I don’t think he can replicate with good health. This new skinny Jokic just seems to be an unprecedented monster who’s legitimately mastered a sport inside and out.

Almost like 15 games streaks like that never happened before. I'm a massive Jokic fan, but just stop this.

I think it is fair to say what Jokic is doing has never been done before given his uniqueness. I do agree with you 70sFan in that other 15-game stretches have been as dominate but in different fashion.

LeBron (2009 - 18 G): 15.9 BPM; 41.7 AST% to 9.7 TOV% on 33.5 USG%, 2.4 STL% and 2.4 BLK%

Jokic (2022 - 14 G): 15.1 BPM; 38.1 AST% to 14 TOV% on 31.4 USG%, 1.9 STL% and 2.9 BLK%

Jordan has a stretch in 1988 at 19 BPM over 15 games.

Yeah, that's my point - I don't want to take away anything from Jokic, he's an amazing player and he's quietly becoming my favorite player in the league right now (still has a long way to catch Steven Adams though ).

By the way, you made me check some of the best 15 games stretches ever and I found this one from Kareem:

Kareem (1972 - 15 G): 40.5 ppg, 15.9 rpg, 5.9 apg on 60. FG% and +13.1 rTS%

Of course, we don't have advanced boxscore stats for him and he did play a lot of minutes with higher but it's just an absurd production. Sorry for changing the topic, but it's always good to remember people how good Kareem truly was at his peak

[Outside]

Breakdown of Steph's 4th quarter in Cleveland by Ben Taylor that highlights both his direct and indirect impact.

Watch on YouTube

RAPTOR WAR has Jokic and Curry tied at the top. Given Curry's huge plus/minus numbers so far this season -- he's +205, second place Luke Kennard is +139, Jokic is tied for 7th at +120 -- it will be interesting to see what the other plus/minus metrics show once they accumulate enough games to release data.

EDIT: Posted this before seeing that the video was already posted in the Curry thread.

[falcolombardi]

Nah not really. Giannis is in the prehistoric era offensively compared to Jokic and Curry and Jokic is playing all league defense.

If Jokic keeps this up, no one in league history will probably even be comparable and Curry would just have to have enough highlight games like last night(because his duds get buried by wins) to get his narrative MVP.

No one is on Jokic’ level right now and should be expected to even come close.

There’s nothing epic and unpredictable about what’s about to happen.

So it's the time when we can finally say that the recency bias has come back this season?

What 35 PER, 15 BPM, literally scorching from every level of half court, elite, truly elite, generational passing, deflections, defensive awareness and dominant defensive rebounding player can you adequately compare Jokic to?


Jokic is coasting to games like last night. He’s not necessarily even on fire when you watch him. He really seems to just be this good.

There’s nothing he’s doing that I don’t think he can replicate with good health. This new skinny Jokic just seems to be an unprecedented monster who’s legitimately mastered a sport inside and out.

for a full season? probably none

but jokic has not played a full season nor playoffs yet, the league is only a month old

[eminence]

Agreed that Giannis has also been great carrying the Bucks early. I've got him a bit behind the other two, but a clear #3.

KD I don't see all that close to the others so far. Shout out to Derozan for being a strong 2nd tier contender.

[yoyoboy]

I don’t want to sound like too much of a hater because I think Steph would be my MVP if I voted today and I have a lot of respect for Draymond’s impact on the court. But it really was extremely frustrating as a Cavs fan playing the Warriors the other day and having to deal with moving screen after holding screen and so on, especially later in the game. Even subtle little things like this.

Read on Twitter

Steph was no doubt unbelievable in the 4th. But those illegal screens that aren’t getting called just make it absolutely impossible to guard an off ball god like Steph. Okoro’s trash defense didn’t help, and I’ve long said he’s overrated on that end and most likely won’t be in the NBA much longer imo. But Steph was getting absolutely wide open looks at times because guys are running into GS players who are acting like offensive linemen here and there, with not one called by the refs. And they would’ve beat us regardless, because guys on our team were clearly running out of gas playing with a short rotation and on a b2b with GS finally deciding to play with some urgency late in the game. But after the league finally cleaned up the BS unnatural shooting motion fouls, I’d really like them to try to clean up these screens because it’s just really irritating to watch them go uncalled.

[falcolombardi]

for sure, the other side to the common criticisms by warriors fans about how much curry is hounded off ball is how much offensive hounding warriors themselves do to get curry open

both trends go back all the way to 2015

[Doctor MJ]

for sure, the other side to the common criticisms by warriors fans about how much curry is hounded off ball is how much offensive hounding warriors themselves do to get curry open

both trends go back all the way to 2015

Sure, but the only reason the team has to work to get Curry open is because the defense is dedicated to making sure above all else that Curry is not left open.

What we have seen from 2012-13 to the present is essentially an arms race between GS and opposing defenses to try to help/hurt GS’ ability to use the most dangerous attack in the history of basketball.

The concept of “gravity” itself has come into our vocabulary specifically not based on Curry’s shot, but based on his team’s ability to exploit the defense’s response to his shot.

So now what we’re seeing with Curry is essentially a mature eco-system that has grown up around him because he’s stayed with the same franchise. It reminds me of Dirk in the early 10s.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[falcolombardi]

for sure, the other side to the common criticisms by warriors fans about how much curry is hounded off ball is how much offensive hounding warriors themselves do to get curry open

both trends go back all the way to 2015

Sure, but the only reason the team has to work to get Curry open is because the defense is dedicated to making sure above all else that Curry is not left open.

What we have seen from 2012-13 to the present is essentially an arms race between GS and opposing defenses to try to help/hurt GS’ ability to use the most dangerous attack in the history of basketball.

The concept of “gravity” itself has come into our vocabulary specifically not based on Curry’s shot, but based on his team’s ability to exploit the defense’s response to his shot.

So now what we’re seeing with Curry is essentially a mature eco-system that has grown up around him because he’s stayed with the same franchise. It reminds me of Dirk in the early 10s.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

agree, but i am talking only about the reffing

the refs give some and take some in the warriors case, if they called fouls by the rulebook strictly warriors games would be insane free throw fests (both ways)

[GSP]

Fun stat:

Steph Curry has a total +/- so far of +203.

2nd in the league (Luke Kennard) is +139.

So Curry is already getting all the love around here and rightfully so obviously. But I love seeing Kennard has found a role on a team where he can succeed. Over on the trade board everyone killed the Clippers for that Kennard trade and then killed them harder on the extension and it sort of became a running meme about only Chuck likes Kennard and why?

But he's such a skilled and smart offensive player and because he has good size, teams can't just target him with immunity at the other end. And being a lefty, he just feels like a slightly poor man's Joe Ingles when I watch him. Doesn't have quite the same defense Joe used to have, but can shoot, can pass, really has a good feel for the game. Great pairing with what Mann brings on that 2nd unit.

Teams targeted Kennard immensely last season something has changed this year but he was a liability on defense last year

[GSP]

I don’t want to sound like too much of a hater because I think Steph would be my MVP if I voted today and I have a lot of respect for Draymond’s impact on the court. But it really was extremely frustrating as a Cavs fan playing the Warriors the other day and having to deal with moving screen after holding screen and so on, especially later in the game. Even subtle little things like this.

Read on Twitter

Steph was no doubt unbelievable in the 4th. But those illegal screens that aren’t getting called just make it absolutely impossible to guard an off ball god like Steph. Okoro’s trash defense didn’t help, and I’ve long said he’s overrated on that end and most likely won’t be in the NBA much longer imo. But Steph was getting absolutely wide open looks at times because guys are running into GS players who are acting like offensive linemen here and there, with not one called by the refs. And they would’ve beat us regardless, because guys on our team were clearly running out of gas playing with a short rotation and on a b2b with GS finally deciding to play with some urgency late in the game. But after the league finally cleaned up the BS unnatural shooting motion fouls, I’d really like them to try to clean up these screens because it’s just really irritating to watch them go uncalled.

The illegal screens were insane in 2015/16. It went down when Kd joined and they didn't use screens as much but it's back now. Warriors also get away with fouling a ton on defense. That was the case back then too. Draymond, Iggy, Steph hack the **** out of other players specially the latter 2. Klay was like the only one on the core consistently playing textbook clean legal defense.

It reminds me a lot of the Chiefs in Nfl. When they're allowed to get away with holding which they did or do a lot it feels the exact same

[The-Power]

The illegal screens were insane in 2015/16. It went down when Kd joined and they didn't use screens as much but it's back now. Warriors also get away with fouling a ton on defense. That was the case back then too. Draymond, Iggy, Steph hack the **** out of other players specially the latter 2. Klay was like the only one on the core consistently playing textbook clean legal defense.

It reminds me a lot of the Chiefs in Nfl. When they're allowed to get away with holding which they did or do a lot it feels the exact same

I also heard they lower the rim and widen the hoop on one side of the court for the Warriors.

[eminence]

I can't remember a decent team ever being as reliant on their bench as this Knicks teams. It's kinda nuts how bad lineups with the starters have been.