(LOCK THREAD) The LeBron James - 22-23 NBA Season Thread -NBA's All-Time Scoring Leader!

[HeartBreakKid]

MJ was beloved in 80s, 90s and the world was more racist back then.

This is kind of the "I have a black friend" argument.

[HeartBreakKid]

People in here got mad at me for saying LeBron was a lower-level All Star at this point before the season started. What do you think now?

He's almost 38 so still impressive regardless.

He wasn't a lower level all-star last season. As for now, it's October lol.

A bit early to be calling the swan song for Lebron, he's not going to be a scrub for a long time.

For one, a year makes a big difference in your late 30s. Second, I already explained it in a lengthier post, but impact wise, he definitely was. His numbers looked good, but that's because half the time he was playing center where he's most effective offensively at this point in his career. Problem is LeBron at center is basically the worst defender in the league. When LeBron isn't playing center, he's probably solidly average on defense, but his offense isn't up there with the elite offensive players who can truly put pressure on a defense consistently and tend to also have more off-ball shooting value than LeBron.

Half the time? Is that exaggerated?

What were his numbers when he was not playing center?

[yoyoboy]

Is 36 year old Jeff Green more athletic than 37 year old LeBron? Kinda crazy considering how much money Bron spends on his body per year whereas Jeff Green probably does nothing lol.

[Fadeaway_J]

Is 36 year old Jeff Green more athletic than 37 year old LeBron? Kinda crazy considering how much money Bron spends on his body per year whereas Jeff Green probably does nothing lol.

No. Hth

[yoyoboy]

Half the time? Is that exaggerated?

What were his numbers when he was not playing center?

When you're terrible defensively, sure you can. Ask Bradley Beal and James Harden some seasons. Basketball is much more than a simple slash line. LeBron was 182nd in RAPM last season, roughly 70th percentile in the league. 108th in On/Off RAPTOR. His on-court +/- was just -2.1 and his On-Off was +2.1. I don't think he was nearly as good as his box score stats made him seem. So many of his gaudy statlines came while playing the center position, in which sure he was putting up great scoring lines, but he was giving back so much on the other end as the Lakers were absolutely laughable defensively with LeBron providing zero resistance at the rim whatsoever.

With no other centers on the court, LeBron posted 32.2 points, 9.6 rebounds, and 5.8 assists per 75 possessions while scoring on a blistering 64.3% TS. Awesome offensive production obviously. And roughly 45% of his minutes on the season came manning the center position. But what does it matter when during those minutes, the Lakers had an embarrassing DRTG of 114.3, getting outscored by 1.5 points per 100 possessions. And I watched enough Lakers games to remember how awful LeBron at center was defensively, so it's not just everyone else's faults. That strategy is nice for individual numbers but it's not feasible for team-level success.

I think LeBron is a clearly more impactful player playing on the perimeter or the 4 at least and having a traditional center. But the issue is that it neuters his offensive value because he's not as athletic as he used to be, even just 2 years ago, and can't put the same pressure on the defense with his drives. Keep in mind he's also yet another year older this year than he was last. And so during the RS with offensive value that's not top 10 in the league and defense that's probably average at best when he's not out of position at the center spot, is lower-level All Star not fair?

^Older post I made in this thread.

[HeartBreakKid]

Half the time? Is that exaggerated?

What were his numbers when he was not playing center?

When you're terrible defensively, sure you can. Ask Bradley Beal and James Harden some seasons. Basketball is much more than a simple slash line. LeBron was 182nd in RAPM last season, roughly 70th percentile in the league. 108th in On/Off RAPTOR. His on-court +/- was just -2.1 and his On-Off was +2.1. I don't think he was nearly as good as his box score stats made him seem. So many of his gaudy statlines came while playing the center position, in which sure he was putting up great scoring lines, but he was giving back so much on the other end as the Lakers were absolutely laughable defensively with LeBron providing zero resistance at the rim whatsoever.

With no other centers on the court, LeBron posted 32.2 points, 9.6 rebounds, and 5.8 assists per 75 possessions while scoring on a blistering 64.3% TS. Awesome offensive production obviously. And roughly 45% of his minutes on the season came manning the center position. But what does it matter when during those minutes, the Lakers had an embarrassing DRTG of 114.3, getting outscored by 1.5 points per 100 possessions. And I watched enough Lakers games to remember how awful LeBron at center was defensively, so it's not just everyone else's faults. That strategy is nice for individual numbers but it's not feasible for team-level success.

I think LeBron is a clearly more impactful player playing on the perimeter or the 4 at least and having a traditional center. But the issue is that it neuters his offensive value because he's not as athletic as he used to be, even just 2 years ago, and can't put the same pressure on the defense with his drives. Keep in mind he's also yet another year older this year than he was last. And so during the RS with offensive value that's not top 10 in the league and defense that's probably average at best when he's not out of position at the center spot, is lower-level All Star not fair?

^Older post I made in this thread.

Yeah, but doesn't him playing center explain why his impact stats would be bad? If he was playing forward they'd probably be fine.

His boxscore stats would go down but the drop off from a 30 PPG +60 TS% player isn't going to be so drastic he'd be considered a borderline all-star.

[Fadeaway_J]

WTF Russ giving the ball and cutting to the basket

[yoyoboy]

Yeah, but doesn't him playing center explain why his impact stats would be bad? If he was playing forward they'd probably be fine.

His boxscore stats would go down but the drop off from a 30 PPG +60 TS% player isn't going to be so drastic he'd be considered a borderline all-star.

For sure, which is why I don't think LeBron is anywhere close to the 182nd best player in the NBA. But if you put him at a mix of the SF and PF positions, during the RS, I think his defensive value is still a little below average. Is his offense good enough for him to be a top 10 player anymore? I just don't think so. There are a ton of high-level offensive players in the NBA at the top right now.

[Tracymcgoaty]

For sure thought he was checked out in the first half. Kudos to him he came out swinging in the 2nd. Need more of this from Lebron. Lebron and AD two man game is a blueprint to causing problems for opposing defenses. No idea why they dont milk that.

[LukaTheGOAT]

Dang, if Bron ends up having a 2015 year with his jumper, or the officials don't start blowing their whistles a bit more, his efficiency could end up worse than Russ' this year (Russ looks kind of aight off the bench tbh).

[AmIWrongDude]

Clear difference was that the team was able to make 3pt shots. It’s so crucial moving forward.

[dcstanley]

Half the time? Is that exaggerated?

What were his numbers when he was not playing center?

When you're terrible defensively, sure you can. Ask Bradley Beal and James Harden some seasons. Basketball is much more than a simple slash line. LeBron was 182nd in RAPM last season, roughly 70th percentile in the league. 108th in On/Off RAPTOR. His on-court +/- was just -2.1 and his On-Off was +2.1. I don't think he was nearly as good as his box score stats made him seem. So many of his gaudy statlines came while playing the center position, in which sure he was putting up great scoring lines, but he was giving back so much on the other end as the Lakers were absolutely laughable defensively with LeBron providing zero resistance at the rim whatsoever.

With no other centers on the court, LeBron posted 32.2 points, 9.6 rebounds, and 5.8 assists per 75 possessions while scoring on a blistering 64.3% TS. Awesome offensive production obviously. And roughly 45% of his minutes on the season came manning the center position. But what does it matter when during those minutes, the Lakers had an embarrassing DRTG of 114.3, getting outscored by 1.5 points per 100 possessions. And I watched enough Lakers games to remember how awful LeBron at center was defensively, so it's not just everyone else's faults. That strategy is nice for individual numbers but it's not feasible for team-level success.

I think LeBron is a clearly more impactful player playing on the perimeter or the 4 at least and having a traditional center. But the issue is that it neuters his offensive value because he's not as athletic as he used to be, even just 2 years ago, and can't put the same pressure on the defense with his drives. Keep in mind he's also yet another year older this year than he was last. And so during the RS with offensive value that's not top 10 in the league and defense that's probably average at best when he's not out of position at the center spot, is lower-level All Star not fair?

^Older post I made in this thread.

The Lebron at center lineups were the only lineups the Lakers employed that resembled anything close to modern spacing. AD missed large chunks of last year and the only center options the Lakers had (Deandre and Dwight) were untenable offensively. Lebron was still often paired with guys like Russ, THT, Stanley Johnson, Reaves, Bradley, Bazemore, Ariza, Wenyen Gabriel when he played the 5.. basically a whos who of non-shooters and terrible offensive players. Monk and Melo were the only real shooters he shared the floor with but I can't imagine they played much together due to their defensive foibles. So, Lebron at center was still dealing with packed paints and less than ideal spacing with multiple non-shooters on the floor that were being completely ignored on the perimeter. It's not like he was playing with the 2017 Warriors death lineup

[letskissbro]

Yeah there's no way a trade is getting done. Westbrick regains the undying support of the basketball world every time he shoots 50%. Doesn't matter if it happens once every 5 games.

He has to go 0-10 every game AND the Lakers need to look like a 50 win team while he does so for Pelinka to pull the trigger.

If he plays too well guys are gonna delude themselves into thinking they can compete with him. If they continue to lose more than they win they'll just say a trade won't make a difference and isn't worth the picks. Couldn't feel happy about this win if I tried

[nzahir]

Yeah there's no way a trade is getting done. Westbrick regains the undying support of the basketball world every time he shoots 50%. Doesn't matter if it happens once every 5 games.

He has to go 0-10 every game AND the Lakers need to look like a 50 win team while he does so for Pelinka to pull the trigger.

If he plays too well guys are gonna delude themselves into thinking they can compete with him. If they continue to lose more than they win they'll just say a trade won't make a difference and isn't worth the picks. Couldn't feel happy about this win if I tried

Teams will start to realize they should be tanking for Wemby and someone will cave

Russ playing better and having 1/3 to 1/2 his expiring paid for is also positive for us

Side note about the game (from watching hihglights and looking up the numbers)

Lebron stepped up in the 2nd half seems like, 1st half looked ROUGH

AD was pretty damn good, just worried abotu his health

Russ seemed to play very well, but we started to lose the lead in the 4th again when he came back....concerning

I would love for him to not close games

What happened to Nunn btw?

Beverly's shooting has been concerning and the usual bad Lebron luck with shooters

Damian Jones got no run, a bit odd

Somehow need to get some wings who can shoot

[Mos_Heat]

Lebron is either washed or not fully in game shape. He missed like 6 easy lay ups and 3pt still not working

[Slava]

Is 36 year old Jeff Green more athletic than 37 year old LeBron? Kinda crazy considering how much money Bron spends on his body per year whereas Jeff Green probably does nothing lol.

Both him and Wesley Johnson, back when he was still in the league, have a moment or two every game where they make you remember why they were such highly ranked after lottery prospects and then you spend the rest of the game wondering what the hell went wrong.

[mysticOscar]

For anyone who doubted my rants last season about how LeBron hate primarily stems from racism:

https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/yhia02/yahoo_lebron_james_said_elon_musk_needs_to/?sort=new

This would make sense if every Blackman in NBA is hated as much as him.

Why jump to racism when there is other logical reason?

Like being the best at the sport for over a decade? Being compared to MJ as GOAT? Jumping from team to team and creating super teams?

Claiming everything that happens in the world is because of racism just doesn't help anything

MJ was beloved in 80s, 90s and the world was more racist back then.

Just think for a second before u post anything

Yes, famously outspoken Michael Jordan.

I wonder, which group do you feel was more beloved by white NBA audiences at large? Magic Johnson and Wilt Chamberlain, or Kareem and Bill Russell? Who was preferred by those demographics, the racially demure and magnanimous Wes Unseld and Willis Reed, or the more confrontational or “standoffish” Earl Monroe, Elvin Hayes, and Walt Frazier? And that is without looking at the downright hostile treatment of Warren Jabali and Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf, who went too far beyond the bar of… pointing out obvious systemic racial inequities.

You could be black and beloved among those audiences, but only so far as you never challenge dominant positions. Lebron is hardly a revolutionary, but he is willing to take positions unpopular with white audiences more than Jordan ever cared to. Even something as basic as acknowledging the challenges of growing up in a single-parent household can sometimes be too much and garner those ever so funny father figure attacks… Or in this case, “fight against racists using the n-word.”

You need to take off your lens that looks at the world through race.

Some people just have the ability to carry themselves with certain humility and have a likeable trait that seems to just resonate with more people.

This is not unique to the west, this happens in every country and culture. Can we also use the race card for any of the hated non black athletes? It's just so ignorant.

Look at the obvious reasons before jumping into the race card.

Anyway I don't want to derail this thread.

[ty 4191]

LeBron James, as we all know, played ages 19-22, right out of high school.

During those years, he racked up 8,439 points, 2,102 rebounds, and 2,033 assists.

Players were not able to be drafted out of high school until a 1971 Supreme Court Case (Haywood vs. NBA) changed that law.

Kareem came up during his age 22 season after playing 3 years in college. Give him his ages 19-21 seasons, very conservatively averaging 25 ppg, 12 rpg, and 3 apg. (He averaged 28.8/14.5/4.1 his Rookie Year and 31.5/15.7/4.0 his first three years).

--Kareem could have racked up ~44,000 points, ~20,000 rebounds, and ~6,400 assists.

And that's just in the regular season. Forget about playoffs totals and records.

How would this change how we're perceiving this record being broken?

How would this change how we would rank and feel about KAJ? Give him three extra years in his physical prime....

Just some food for thought.

[MyUniBroDavis]

Impact stats when a team is shooting 23% from three are gonna be pretty noisy

Westbrook was good today and yesterday but he’s been horrendous overall, which is obvious on rewatches as well, but his impact stuff have been great

I think if anyone starts switching around on Westbrook cuz his impact stuff is good thus far imma flip out lol

[MyUniBroDavis]

LeBron James, as we all know, played ages 19-22, right out of high school.

During those years, he racked up 8,439 points, 2,102 rebounds, and 2,033 assists.

Players were not able to be drafted out of high school until a 1971 Supreme Court Case (Haywood vs. NBA) changed that law.

Kareem came up during his age 22 season after playing 3 years in college. Give him his ages 19-21 seasons, very conservatively averaging 25 ppg, 12 rpg, and 3 apg. (He averaged 28.8/14.5/4.1 his Rookie Year and 31.5/15.7/4.0 his first three years).

--Kareem could have racked up ~44,000 points, ~20,000 rebounds, and ~6,400 assists.

And that's just in the regular season. Forget about playoffs totals and records.

How would this change how we're perceiving this record being broken?

How would this change how we would rank and feel about KAJ? Give him three extra years in his physical prime....

Just some food for thought.

Lebron has 7.6k playoff points, Kareem has 5.7k, so the forget about playoff points argument is weird

Also three years of west and tear in the nba is different of course