2013-14 Player of the Year Discussion Thread

Moderators: Doctor MJ, trex_8063, penbeast0, PaulieWal, Clyde Frazier

User avatar
mopper8
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 42,618
And1: 4,870
Joined: Jul 18, 2004
Location: Petting elephants with the coolest dude alive

Re: 2013-14 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#441 » by mopper8 » Sat May 17, 2014 8:51 pm

ElGee wrote:(1) Late-Game Bias.

If you acknowledge that all points are the same, and all plays count the same, then why is the end of the game ever more important? As an example (since I'm quoting Chuck), if you believe "pressure" is greater at the end of games, then why does it matter that the pressure is greater? All the possessions are still the same...


All points are the same, but not all possessions are the same. Pressure doesn't matter. But here's a really simple way to think about:

A team that is down 4 points with roughly 75 possessions ahead of them will probably have roughly the same probability of winning as they did when it was 0-0, or at least something decently close to it. Certainly something non-zero and in fact far great than zero.

A team that is down 4 points with 1 possession ahead of it has essentially zero chance of winning the game.

Now, everything that lead up to that 4 point differential at the end of the game matters, but there is a larger margin of error in the first quarter than there is in the fourth quarter, because you will have more opportunities to make up ground, fix mistakes, etc. As the number of remaining possessions shrinks, the margin of error per possession reduces to zero, until a team (and its constituent players) has to literally play perfectly to win (or conversely to play truly terribly to lose).
DragicTime85 wrote:[Ric Bucher] has a tiny wiener and I can prove it.
Doctor MJ
Senior Mod
Senior Mod
Posts: 53,863
And1: 22,802
Joined: Mar 10, 2005
Location: Cali
     

Re: 2013-14 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#442 » by Doctor MJ » Sat May 17, 2014 9:17 pm

Just chiming in her on the relative value of different points & possessions in the game:

The answer to that to me is always about understanding what a team's actual capabilities are and their ability to summon them as needed.

The traditional fan model to me is something along the lines of a superstar being able to turn it on and hit every shot when it matters. Obviously, to the extent that exists, that's going to make 4th quarter play indirectly more valuable than 1st quarter play.

The more informed statistical view has in general seemed to show that no such thing exists, and that the results in the clutch have a whole lot of randomness, and you'd want then to say that all quarters are equal in value, both directly and indirectly.

However, there's no doubt that teams change how they play in the clutch, oftentimes drastically. It seems hard to fathom then that all things line up to being truly equal. The question then is largely a question of whether a particular team's adjustments are helping them or hurting them relative to the similarly adjusted opponent in the clutch.

And there it's not so clear. We've had years where a team appears to be phenomenally "clutch" all year long. The best example I can think of is the '11 Mavericks. When something lasts an entire season I'm disinclined to attribute it to luck, but that's not entirely rational of me.

It's all been interesting to watch the progression of LeBron on this front. While Kobe became the poster boy for those asserting old school clutchness and those asserting new school absence-of-clutchness, LeBron's gone through multiple years where his teams are utterly insane in the clutch. Had LeBron come into the league in '96 instead of '03 then, it's quite likely the conversation of the new school would have been very different.

But it's still not necessarily clear how "real" that clutchness is. LeBron's the best in general so it hardly seems like luck when his team is able to turn it up when it counts...but why haven't his teams been able to do it more consistently? Why does the clutchness seem to ebb & flow so much if it's not luck that's causing it?
Getting ready for the RealGM 100 on the PC Board

Come join the WNBA Board if you're a fan!
sp6r=underrated
RealGM
Posts: 20,927
And1: 13,769
Joined: Jan 20, 2007
 

Re: 2013-14 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#443 » by sp6r=underrated » Sat May 17, 2014 9:33 pm

sigh, Mark Jackson is calling the remainder of the playoffs. Prepare yourself for some brain dead commentary.
colts18
Head Coach
Posts: 7,434
And1: 3,255
Joined: Jun 29, 2009

Re: 2013-14 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#444 » by colts18 » Sat May 17, 2014 9:45 pm

sp6r=underrated wrote:sigh, Mark Jackson is calling the remainder of the playoffs. Prepare yourself for some brain dead commentary.
I'm guessing Mark Jackson is now the Motivator commentator and Van Gundy is the X and O commentator
HeartBreakKid
RealGM
Posts: 22,395
And1: 18,828
Joined: Mar 08, 2012
     

Re: 2013-14 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#445 » by HeartBreakKid » Sat May 17, 2014 10:08 pm

sp6r=underrated wrote:sigh, Mark Jackson is calling the remainder of the playoffs. Prepare yourself for some brain dead commentary.

mama there goes that man

hand down, man down
User avatar
Texas Chuck
Senior Mod - NBA TnT Forum
Senior Mod - NBA TnT Forum
Posts: 92,814
And1: 99,405
Joined: May 19, 2012
Location: Purgatory
   

Re: 2013-14 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#446 » by Texas Chuck » Sat May 17, 2014 10:11 pm

Breen, Jackson, and JVG are maybe my favorite NBA broadcast team ever.
ThunderBolt wrote:I’m going to let some of you in on a little secret I learned on realgm. If you don’t like a thread, not only do you not have to comment but you don’t even have to open it and read it. You’re welcome.
HeartBreakKid
RealGM
Posts: 22,395
And1: 18,828
Joined: Mar 08, 2012
     

Re: 2013-14 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#447 » by HeartBreakKid » Sat May 17, 2014 11:06 pm

Texas Chuck wrote:Breen, Jackson, and JVG are maybe my favorite NBA broadcast team ever.


Ugh they're the worst, Mike Breen makes me cringe.
sp6r=underrated
RealGM
Posts: 20,927
And1: 13,769
Joined: Jan 20, 2007
 

Re: 2013-14 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#448 » by sp6r=underrated » Sat May 17, 2014 11:22 pm

HeartBreakKid wrote:
Texas Chuck wrote:Breen, Jackson, and JVG are maybe my favorite NBA broadcast team ever.


Ugh they're the worst, Mike Breen makes me cringe.


He's the Baghdad Bob of announcers.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using RealGM Forums mobile app
User avatar
PaulieWal
Forum Mod
Forum Mod
Posts: 13,909
And1: 16,218
Joined: Aug 28, 2013

Re: 2013-14 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#449 » by PaulieWal » Sat May 17, 2014 11:24 pm

HeartBreakKid wrote:
Texas Chuck wrote:Breen, Jackson, and JVG are maybe my favorite NBA broadcast team ever.


Ugh they're the worst, Mike Breen makes me cringe.


Breen is too PC and you can see that irks JVG at times but his "Bangggg!!" alone makes up for all the other times when he is annoying.

I prefer Breen and JVG by themselves.

JVG gets to be the quirky, opinionated, and smart basketball guy, Breen can be the company man who does a good job with the play-by-play announcing.

Not a fan of Jackson as I think he takes away from JVG and he isn't particularly insightful.
JordansBulls wrote:The Warriors are basically a good college team until they meet a team with bigs in the NBA.
microfib4thewin
Head Coach
Posts: 6,275
And1: 454
Joined: Jun 20, 2008
 

Re: 2013-14 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#450 » by microfib4thewin » Sat May 17, 2014 11:38 pm

The only good thing about having Jackson back is so JVG will have someone to ridicule again.
HeartBreakKid
RealGM
Posts: 22,395
And1: 18,828
Joined: Mar 08, 2012
     

Re: 2013-14 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#451 » by HeartBreakKid » Sat May 17, 2014 11:48 pm

Breen makes watching Knicks games a double edged sword. Clyde Frazier is a great color commentator, but Breen...ugh..such a yes man.
sp6r=underrated
RealGM
Posts: 20,927
And1: 13,769
Joined: Jan 20, 2007
 

Re: 2013-14 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#452 » by sp6r=underrated » Sun May 18, 2014 12:54 am

It sucks about Ibaka. It truly does. I still think OKC has a chance at a title but this is the 2nd straight year they've had to endure something like this. That is really tough for them and their fans.

I'll be paying special attention to Collison if his minutes get upped.
User avatar
bondom34
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 66,716
And1: 50,290
Joined: Mar 01, 2013

Re: 2013-14 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#453 » by bondom34 » Sun May 18, 2014 12:55 am

I'm with Cuck, I just like Breen's voice, JVG's attitude, and Jackson's just brain dead fun with a small amount of analysis. I wonder if coaching will change how he calls games though?

As to the whole clutch arguement, I think that's some of why a few people (myself included), have dropped Love out of the top 5. All stats lead to him being there pretty clearly, but the lack of winning is tough to overcome, and it seems his game is really not well equipped for tight situations down the stretch. Its hard to build around a poor defending big, and I think Minny is proving it. He's a dominant offensive force, but I feel like there's just something missing.
MyUniBroDavis wrote: he was like YALL PEOPLE WHO DOUBT ME WILL SEE YALLS STATS ARE WRONG I HAVE THE BIG BRAIN PLAYS MUCHO NASTY BIG BRAIN BIG CHUNGUS BRAIN YOU BOYS ON UR BBALL REFERENCE NO UNDERSTANDO
ElGee
Assistant Coach
Posts: 4,041
And1: 1,208
Joined: Mar 08, 2010
Contact:

Re: 2013-14 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#454 » by ElGee » Sun May 18, 2014 1:13 am

mopper8 wrote:
ElGee wrote:(1) Late-Game Bias.

If you acknowledge that all points are the same, and all plays count the same, then why is the end of the game ever more important? As an example (since I'm quoting Chuck), if you believe "pressure" is greater at the end of games, then why does it matter that the pressure is greater? All the possessions are still the same...


All points are the same, but not all possessions are the same. Pressure doesn't matter. But here's a really simple way to think about:

A team that is down 4 points with roughly 75 possessions ahead of them will probably have roughly the same probability of winning as they did when it was 0-0, or at least something decently close to it. Certainly something non-zero and in fact far great than zero.

A team that is down 4 points with 1 possession ahead of it has essentially zero chance of winning the game.

Now, everything that lead up to that 4 point differential at the end of the game matters, but there is a larger margin of error in the first quarter than there is in the fourth quarter, because you will have more opportunities to make up ground, fix mistakes, etc. As the number of remaining possessions shrinks, the margin of error per possession reduces to zero, until a team (and its constituent players) has to literally play perfectly to win (or conversely to play truly terribly to lose).


Apologies I can't link you to this article and research right now. This is all addressed there. In short:

What you've described is why people feel pressure and why they perceive possessions to be more important -- It doesn't actually change the importance of the possession. We do this because we can assign consequences to an action with greater confidence, and thus overemphasize THAT one action. When Horry's shot was in the air at the buzzer of Game 5 in 2002, by definition, everyone knew the game hinged on that shot. But this is just a temporal bias -- just because no one knew the outcome of the second did they attach the same meaning to Walker's buzzer beater. Only once the entire game is finished (all possessions completed) can we see the game hinged on Walker's shot and every other shot, because it was a one-point game.

An easy way to see this: In soccer, is the 5th penalty kick the most important?

Doctor MJ wrote:The answer to that to me is always about understanding what a team's actual capabilities are and their ability to summon them as needed.


To be clear -- the data show the opposite pattern. Basketball players aren't selective procrastinators -- most good teams create separation early, they certainly don't wait to turn it on till the end. You cite the 2011 Mavs as a rare example of crazy clutch play in a small sample. By quarter that year they were: +1.5 +0.5 +0.4 +1.5. Certainly a team that was better at getting into their stuff when the game tightened up...and to me that's just called a good team, perhaps with better resilience. NBA teams take a sub-optimal Game Theory approach at times at the end of games -- the teams who don't change their offenses are historically the one's that stand out in those tightened possessions. Some teams also have better depth. Neither of those changes that every possession is equally important until there is essentially no change of winning the game.

I'm actually wondering what I'm missing on Love -- does he/Minny have some pattern of underperforming down the stretch? I thought they were just abnormally unlucky this year -- is this a multi-year thing?
Check out and discuss my book, now on Kindle! http://www.backpicks.com/thinking-basketball/
microfib4thewin
Head Coach
Posts: 6,275
And1: 454
Joined: Jun 20, 2008
 

Re: 2013-14 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#455 » by microfib4thewin » Sun May 18, 2014 1:56 am

ElGee wrote:I'm actually wondering what I'm missing on Love -- does he/Minny have some pattern of underperforming down the stretch? I thought they were just abnormally unlucky this year -- is this a multi-year thing?


I just saw this linked on reddit. (Click for a bigger image)

Image

According to this the Wolves are pretty close to being the worst 4th quarter team this year. Given how bad they have been prior to this season I am not sure if digging up their 4th quarter differential from recent years would say much.
User avatar
RSCD3_
RealGM
Posts: 13,932
And1: 7,342
Joined: Oct 05, 2013
 

Re: 2013-14 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#456 » by RSCD3_ » Sun May 18, 2014 3:06 am

microfib4thewin wrote:
ElGee wrote:I'm actually wondering what I'm missing on Love -- does he/Minny have some pattern of underperforming down the stretch? I thought they were just abnormally unlucky this year -- is this a multi-year thing?


I just saw this linked on reddit. (Click for a bigger image)

Image

According to this the Wolves are pretty close to being the worst 4th quarter team this year. Given how bad they have been prior to this season I am not sure if digging up their 4th quarter differential from recent years would say much.


Yeah any person who has watched piston fans would see how they are the last place team, they had a lot of huge leads blown and it all had to do with terrible jumpshot after jumpshot.
I came here to do two things: get lost and slice **** up & I'm all out of directions.

Butler removing rearview mirror in his car as a symbol to never look back

Peja Stojakovic wrote:Jimmy butler, with no regard for human life
JordansBulls
RealGM
Posts: 60,472
And1: 5,350
Joined: Jul 12, 2006
Location: HCA (Homecourt Advantage)

Re: 2013-14 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#457 » by JordansBulls » Sun May 18, 2014 3:42 am

Texas Chuck wrote:Breen, Jackson, and JVG are maybe my favorite NBA broadcast team ever.

No. Bob Costas, Doug Collins and Isiah Thomas are.
Image
"Talent wins games, but teamwork and intelligence wins championships."
- Michael Jordan
User avatar
PaulieWal
Forum Mod
Forum Mod
Posts: 13,909
And1: 16,218
Joined: Aug 28, 2013

Re: 2013-14 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#458 » by PaulieWal » Sun May 18, 2014 4:01 am

JordansBulls wrote:
Texas Chuck wrote:Breen, Jackson, and JVG are maybe my favorite NBA broadcast team ever.

No. Bob Costas, Doug Collins and Isiah Thomas are.


That's why he said *his* (my) favorite broadcast team, not yours.
JordansBulls wrote:The Warriors are basically a good college team until they meet a team with bigs in the NBA.
User avatar
Dr Positivity
RealGM
Posts: 63,016
And1: 16,448
Joined: Apr 29, 2009
       

Re: 2013-14 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#459 » by Dr Positivity » Sun May 18, 2014 6:51 am

I'm treating Love's case as if he made the PS and put up disappointing numbers like Harden and Dirk. That's not entirely fair perhaps, but there's no real fair answer, since voting him or Melo over a Harden or Dirk who only screwed their top 5 chances in the playoffs because they got the chance to, isn't really right either.

Considering I may be <50% sure I'd have Love in my top 5 even i he made the playoffs, it's NBD for me to leave him off for equivalent players, personally. He isn't 2005 KG or 1976 Kareem. He had Harden and Curry's RS and they didn't make my last top 5 either. Harden and Love are comparable in that their offensive numbers are amazing but you feel their skill-set has holes. If someone made the argument guys Melo is better than them because they like his offensive skillset more I wouldn't call it inane
It's going to be a glorious day... I feel my luck could change
mysticbb
Banned User
Posts: 8,205
And1: 713
Joined: May 28, 2007
Contact:
   

Re: 2013-14 Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#460 » by mysticbb » Sun May 18, 2014 9:51 am

mopper8 wrote:Now, everything that lead up to that 4 point differential at the end of the game matters, but there is a larger margin of error in the first quarter than there is in the fourth quarter, because you will have more opportunities to make up ground, fix mistakes, etc. As the number of remaining possessions shrinks, the margin of error per possession reduces to zero, until a team (and its constituent players) has to literally play perfectly to win (or conversely to play truly terribly to lose).


While that is completely true (and I pointed out the fact that the probability of winning a game changes depending on the time left), we are running into a bigger problem than the probability change with time left, when we focus on that too much: Sample size! If we would just look at the 4th quarter performance of players, we would only take about 1/4th of the playing time into account. And the result we are getting is less reliable than taking the whole game into account.
I tried to illustrate this point a bit with Paul's "clutch +/- numbers", where a marginal change leads to a completely different conclusion.

The whole "the last part of the game is more important, etc." or "minutes with a big lead at the end of a game doesn't matter" was tested a lot of times, and there is no evidence that the predictive power would become better when either of that (or both) is taken into account. The best prediction comes out of using the whole sample, and at that even unweighted for any felt importance of a possession. And while the "last possession of a one-possession-game" matters a lot in regard to the outcome of the game, it is just not really decided by something which the players can replicate in that fashion to give a good enough hint for the outcome of future similar situations. That's the important point to understand here. While it is important, it just doesn't say us a lot about the players.

I looked into that matter for a myriad of players in 2011 in a sample from 2005 to 2011, and only 2 players showed to be a part of a team which performed in clutch situation significant above the level of their normal level; Nowitzki and James. For everybody else was the difference based on the sample size and the distribution not significant. But guess what? Chris Paul's teams did also about 5 points per 75 poss better in clutch minutes as in non-clutch minutes.

So, being important in that one particular game, doesn't mean that we have really something to work with for a player evaluation. And this thread is about the best players in the game, not those who were especially lucky in close game situations (at least from my perspective).

Return to Player Comparisons