RealGM Top 100 List #2

[An Unbiased Fan]

Like I said, that scale is just an estimate, and was made in response to the post wondering how much more impact a great offensive player has in comparison to a great defender. Also, it had little to do with "the eye test", and everything to do with on court play. The "All-D", "DPOY" labels, and so on, are just to illustrate the relative level of impact I was estimating.

Keep in mind, this is pretty much the same thing that's been done with Russell for the first 2 votes. We've been debating what his actual defensive impact was, and how it compares to other greats. Does Russell's offensive/defensive impact trump KAJ's offensive/defensive impact...I don't see it. KAJ also has more career value since his prime was longer.

Well, from what I know about you as a poster, you don't just make estimates without believing what you're writing Case and point, you knew you'd be called out for this. And isn't eye test part of on court play?
I mean, what do you think most use to come up to the conclusion of Kobe's impact persay? Cause if they were looking at advanced stats...that would tell you.......I understand you like Kobe, but you need to keep your bias from overflowing to detract other players for that sole purpose.

As for the rest of your post, you can challenge whatever you like my friend. But some of your statement are like saying KAJ wasn't over 7 feet tall.

Huh?? I was responding to a post asking for how we measure offensive impacts vs defensive impacts. I posted an estimate of my scale, and then went over the Top 11 or 12 players and rated them. I've spent this whole project arguing MJ/KAJ/Russell. You're the only one bringing up Lebron/Kobe here, both of whom aren't getting my #2 vote.

And then you call me out for bias? Again, I was giving Lebron credit. I rated him at the top with 3-4 other guys. I do think he's a 9 in offensive imapct because his style of play has marginalized star power around him, been saying that since 2009 and do the same with Wilt. But I also gave Kobe, Shaq, KAJ, KG, Duncan, all the same treatment.

Its just so random that you would focus on a couple of sentences and then extrapolate it into something its not.

[DQuinn1575]

Then Kareem's first 3 seasons he wasn't in his prime either. (which I don't agree with, but I don't understand the basis that Bill wasn't in his prime in his 3rd season)

Doesn't really change anything, Kareem was good for a very long time, but I don't see how he has a longer prime than Bill Russell.

What is Kareem's prime years and what is Russell's prime years?

Kareem's prime was 1971-1981
I think 1958-1965 is pretty fair for Russell's prime.

[HeartBreakKid]

Then Kareem's first 3 seasons he wasn't in his prime either. (which I don't agree with, but I don't understand the basis that Bill wasn't in his prime in his 3rd season)

Doesn't really change anything, Kareem was good for a very long time, but I don't see how he has a longer prime than Bill Russell.

What is Kareem's prime years and what is Russell's prime years?

Kareem's prime was 1971-1981
I think 1958-1965 is pretty fair for Russell's prime.

Wouldn't 1965 represent Bill Russell's peak?

Was 66 Russell really a worse player than 58 Russell?

[An Unbiased Fan]

Then Kareem's first 3 seasons he wasn't in his prime either. (which I don't agree with, but I don't understand the basis that Bill wasn't in his prime in his 3rd season)

Doesn't really change anything, Kareem was good for a very long time, but I don't see how he has a longer prime than Bill Russell.

What is Kareem's prime years and what is Russell's prime years?

Kareem's prime was 1971-1981
I think 1958-1965 is pretty fair for Russell's prime.

I think 1959-1968 for Russell in terms of prime.

[Texas Chuck]

Kareem's prime was 1971-1981

This is what's insane about Kareem. Yeah his rebounding and defense really dropped off in his late 30s but still such a great offensive weapon for ShowTime. I'd give him his rookie season as prime as well btw. Only thing really different about that year was he didn't shoot it quite as well.

I started really watching basketball when Dallas was awarded an expansion team and my basketball-crazy uncle took me to a bunch of games when I was 6-7 years old. I grew up on old man Kareem and wish I had gotten to see the younger version way more than I have.

[Purch]

Shaq also has an insanely long prime if you think about his Orlando seasons up until Probally 04 or so

[DQuinn1575]

Then Kareem's first 3 seasons he wasn't in his prime either. (which I don't agree with, but I don't understand the basis that Bill wasn't in his prime in his 3rd season)

Doesn't really change anything, Kareem was good for a very long time, but I don't see how he has a longer prime than Bill Russell.

What is Kareem's prime years and what is Russell's prime years?

Kareem's prime was 1971-1981
I think 1958-1965 is pretty fair for Russell's prime.

Wouldn't 1965 represent Bill Russell's peak?

Was 66 Russell really a worse player than 58 Russell?

I'm not set in stone on it, but

What I looked at was:

58 .442 fg%/15.6 pts per 36/21.3 reb per 36
66 .415 fg%/10.7 pts per 36/18.9 reb per 36
So, rebounding 10% less, scoring and shooting much less.
I also was influenced by drop from 1965 to 1966
Lastly they were 1st and last MVP seasons.

[Owly]

In comparison, I would say prime MJ was 10/7, Russell was 4/10(for his era), KAJ was 10/7 to start, but 9/6 for most of his prime. Magic is 10/4. Bird is 10/4. Prime Lebron is 9/6, could be 10 offensively if I didn't feel his style of play didn't marginalize others a bit. Peak Shaq was 10/7 maybe even 10/8 for 2000...but for most of his career he was more like 10/5, he had the potential to be GOAT, damn. Prime Kobe was from 10/6 to 10/5 depending on the year. prime Duncan is 6/8, maybe 6/9 for 2002-03. KG is 6/7, maybe 7/7 for 03-05. Wilt's hard to gauge frankly, on both off/def. 94-95 Hakeem was 7/8, and 7/9 in the playoffs

I am really curious how you have LeBron as a player who "marginalized" talent around him when Scottie Pippen had his best 2 years without MJ.

Just curious that you didn't bring it up for MJ. Pippen was best in his career as a 26-27% usage guy, yet when he played with MJ, was only a 19-24% usage guy.

This is the best thread I have ever read on this forum. Lot's of great knowledge and excellent posters with knowledge of players before my time. Keep up the good work

Pippen's skillset was fully utilized next to MJ. He was a point-forward on those teams, and his production was pretty much the same too. Sure he had more USG% considering MJ was gone in 94/95, but that's a far cry from someone like Bosh who was a 24/10 MVP candidate in 2010, and then a one-dimensional spot up shooter next to Lebron.

This is one of the things I praised Russell for earlier, because besides defense, he was GOAT level at utilizing the talent around him. In stark contrast to Wilt who was putting up the great boxscores, but not getting the most out of his casts, especially in Philly.

Does "in Philly" mean 76ers (or the Philadelphia Warriors, or both?).

Assuming the former, when? '67 when they were one of the greatest teams of all time? '68 when they posted a 7.96 SRS and were clearly the leagues best RS team then got crippled by injuries in the playoffs. Or '66 when Chet Walker was a full 6 years from his peak, rookie Cunningham 4-7 from his, his pg (Wali Jones) was sub-replacement level in his first significant season (2nd year) and yet his team managed to get homecourt over Boston (though realistically Boston was much better, with slightly better SRS despite injuries and generally low minutes for core guys but a good 8 man rotation available for the playoffs - not counting Willie Naulls here, he wasn't good at this point. So he didn't get them that close to winning but then, but the pieces weren't there/ready yet).

[DQuinn1575]

Kareem's prime was 1971-1981

This is what's insane about Kareem. Yeah his rebounding and defense really dropped off in his late 30s but still such a great offensive weapon for ShowTime. I'd give him his rookie season as prime as well btw. Only thing really different about that year was he didn't shoot it quite as well.

I started really watching basketball when Dallas was awarded an expansion team and my basketball-crazy uncle took me to a bunch of games when I was 6-7 years old. I grew up on old man Kareem and wish I had gotten to see the younger version way more than I have.

I've changed since I've been on this board from calling his rookie year prime since his numbers were better his second year.

He was so much more athletic in the early 70s.
It was really noticeable as when he started to decline was when he faced Moses.

[MacGill]

Luv it AUF playing the victim card already! If you're going to put anything in writing at any vote position, then anyone has the right extrapolate it into something it's not

Being real for a second: After these first two threads, I can honestly say that I am more impressed by KAJ and I feel my previous ranking of him wasn't totally fair and based on a full assessment. The game footage that was provided (thx RealBig3) I watched in full and I can say he is every bit the player those who champion him speak of.

If anyone has a moment and wants to type out a Coles version: Just looking for reasons why he is placed above Magic who I had at #3? I then had Shaq, Hakeem, Duncan. In all honesty, not that a top 10 order matters but to place him at #3, I'd have to really be convinced he was a much better player than Magic, which I am struggling with at this moment.

[An Unbiased Fan]

Does "in Philly" mean 76ers (or the Philadelphia Warriors, or both?).

Assuming the former, when? '67 when they were one of the greatest teams of all time? '68 when they posted a 7.96 SRS and were clearly the leagues best RS team then got crippled by injuries in the playoffs. Or '66 when Chet Walker was a full 6 years from his peak, rookie Cunningham 4-7 from his, his pg (Wali Jones) was sub-replacement level in his first significant season (2nd year) and yet his team managed to get homecourt over Boston (though realistically Boston was much better, with slightly better SRS despite injuries and generally low minutes for core guys but a good 8 man rotation available for the playoffs - not counting Willie Naulls here, he wasn't good at this point. So he didn't get them that close to winning but then, but the pieces weren't there/ready yet).

You know I just realized that the Philly Warriors turned into the SF warriors, and that's who I meant, lol. I was watching old video earlier, and had the Philly Warriors on the brain.

[Jim Naismith]

Kareem's prime was 1971-1981

This is what's insane about Kareem. Yeah his rebounding and defense really dropped off in his late 30s but still such a great offensive weapon for ShowTime. I'd give him his rookie season as prime as well btw. Only thing really different about that year was he didn't shoot it quite as well.

I started really watching basketball when Dallas was awarded an expansion team and my basketball-crazy uncle took me to a bunch of games when I was 6-7 years old. I grew up on old man Kareem and wish I had gotten to see the younger version way more than I have.

I've changed since I've been on this board from calling his rookie year prime since his numbers were better his second year.

He was so much more athletic in the early 70s.
It was really noticeable as when he started to decline was when he faced Moses.

His second year was better, but rookie Alcindor finished 3rd in MVP voting.

You have pretty high standards if that's not considered prime.

[An Unbiased Fan]

Luv it AUF playing the victim card already! If you're going to put anything in writing at any vote position, then anyone has the right extrapolate it into something it's not

I have no need to play a "victim", and stand by the estimates on the scale. My whole point is that you're reading it wrong, especially when you extrapolated that I was discrediting Lebron, since I was actually giving him praise based on his overall rating. FYI, Magic is my favorite player ever, and he was given 10/4.

[Quotatious]

His second year was better, but rookie Alcindor finished 3rd in MVP voting.

You have pretty high standards if that's not considered prime.

Yep, and he got the upper hand in his EDF matchup against the reigning MVP Willis Reed. Kareem very well may've been the best player in the league in his rookie season (I think it was West, and obviously Oscar was still great, too, but KAJ seems to have a case).

[Reservoirdawgs]

Not to back-seat moderate, but how about everyone stick with the discussion of KAJ and Russell instead of arguing about Lebron and Kobe?

[MacGill]

Luv it AUF playing the victim card already! If you're going to put anything in writing at any vote position, then anyone has the right extrapolate it into something it's not

I have no need to play a "victim", and stand by the estimates on the scale. My whole point is that you're reading it wrong, especially when you extrapolated that I was discrediting Lebron, since I was actually giving him praise based on his overall rating. FYI, Magic is my favorite player ever, and he was given 10/4.

Wait...so now, in this post you 'STAND BY' your estimates? You just said that I took them the wrong way? And your previous posts stated that they were just estimates as you were giving an example for another poster, hence why I quoted you....anyway, we don't need to continue this as we have all seen your LBJ thread posts of giving him praise.

So let me ask you a question to get back onto basketball. Whay KAJ over Magic in your opinion?

[ceiling raiser]

Does "in Philly" mean 76ers (or the Philadelphia Warriors, or both?).

Assuming the former, when? '67 when they were one of the greatest teams of all time? '68 when they posted a 7.96 SRS and were clearly the leagues best RS team then got crippled by injuries in the playoffs. Or '66 when Chet Walker was a full 6 years from his peak, rookie Cunningham 4-7 from his, his pg (Wali Jones) was sub-replacement level in his first significant season (2nd year) and yet his team managed to get homecourt over Boston (though realistically Boston was much better, with slightly better SRS despite injuries and generally low minutes for core guys but a good 8 man rotation available for the playoffs - not counting Willie Naulls here, he wasn't good at this point. So he didn't get them that close to winning but then, but the pieces weren't there/ready yet).

You know I just realized that the Philly Warriors turned into the SF warriors, and that's who I meant, lol. I was watching old video earlier, and had the Philly Warriors on the brain.

You have video of the Philadelphia Warriors? Would you mind sharing?

I ask because from my understanding, there's no game footage of the Philadelphia Warriors that exists within the trading community:

http://ihaveplanet.com/Trading/TradingB ... x?Board=29

If you have footage of any of their games, it would be a tremendous asset to avid traders and to posters on this board who are looking to watch new games from the era.

[kayess]

Luv it AUF playing the victim card already! If you're going to put anything in writing at any vote position, then anyone has the right extrapolate it into something it's not

Being real for a second: After these first two threads, I can honestly say that I am more impressed by KAJ and I feel my previous ranking of him wasn't totally fair and based on a full assessment. The game footage that was provided (thx RealBig3) I watched in full and I can say he is every bit the player those who champion him speak of.

If anyone has a moment and wants to type out a Coles version: Just looking for reasons why he is placed above Magic who I had at #3? I then had Shaq, Hakeem, Duncan. In all honesty, not that a top 10 order matters but to place him at #3, I'd have to really be convinced he was a much better player than Magic, which I am struggling with at this moment.

I can't believe some of the things he was saying.

His logic for the #2 vote was "let's look at who's the best player from each position; #2 has to come from one of them!" as if it were impossible that one position were so stacked, the next few in the list would come from them (Center!!)

And of course, when he lists them - Magic, Kobe, Bird, Duncan, Kareem/Russell, it becomes obvious why he chose this line of reasoning.

Can't wait to hear all the "it's about skill and dominance" logic when Kobe time finally rolls around.

Staying OT, my vote is still for Kareem.

[DQuinn1575]

This is what's insane about Kareem. Yeah his rebounding and defense really dropped off in his late 30s but still such a great offensive weapon for ShowTime. I'd give him his rookie season as prime as well btw. Only thing really different about that year was he didn't shoot it quite as well.

I started really watching basketball when Dallas was awarded an expansion team and my basketball-crazy uncle took me to a bunch of games when I was 6-7 years old. I grew up on old man Kareem and wish I had gotten to see the younger version way more than I have.

I've changed since I've been on this board from calling his rookie year prime since his numbers were better his second year.

He was so much more athletic in the early 70s.
It was really noticeable as when he started to decline was when he faced Moses.

His second year was better, but rookie Alcindor finished 3rd in MVP voting.

You have pretty high standards if that's not considered prime.

I can go either way on 70, as I said in the post.
Kareem set some pretty high standards.

[penbeast0]

MacGill, I'm sorry the PM system is not working for me right now and I have to post this here but knock it off. You were attacking another poster, rather than his argument. You get one warning on this issue and this is it. Feel free to call his arguments foolish or dead wrong; when you call him on "playing the victim card," that's making it about him.

And seriously, if that's what he's doing, do you really think it's likely to persuade anyone to side with him on an issue?