All-Season Player of the Year Discussion thread

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Re: All-Season Player of the Year Discussion thread 

Post#441 » by RSCD3_ » Fri May 15, 2015 7:10 pm

Chuck Texas wrote:
RSCD3_ wrote:It feels weird to say that but Chris Paul might truly be cursed to never the the past the second round

I cant put him above 4th if he is the lead guy of a team that blew a 3-1 lead

198/207 teams have been able to win it in these cases


Huh? You do realize Chris Paul missed 2 game completely right? Including one of the losses? It was his fadult that Jamal played 35 minutes and took 22 shots? Making all of 6? And the games he played where they have lost, do you really think he played that poorly? Because I've watched all those games and I'm completely missing the part where Chris Paul is costing them this series.

Just seems like a really arbitrary decison here and I'm probably higher on team success in evaluating individuals than just about any regular on the PC board.


those missing games do in fact hurt his case and its seems he's been injury prone every single year in the playoffs so I dont know if one could say " if he was healthy " because healthy postseason paul hasnt existed in a long while .

Jamal is a horribad chucker lately and Barnes couldnt hit an ocean with a rock. Still expect the clippers to win game 7 but he needs to take more of a role in the closing minutes as it seemed the clippers lost all their poise in the 4th.
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Re: All-Season Player of the Year Discussion thread 

Post#442 » by Texas Chuck » Fri May 15, 2015 9:00 pm

RSCD3_ wrote:
those missing games do in fact hurt his case and its seems he's been injury prone every single year in the playoffs so I dont know if one could say " if he was healthy " because healthy postseason paul hasnt existed in a long while .




That's a fair criticism of Paul except you were specifically speaking in the context of this season where he played 82 games and was the hero in the game 7 win over the defending champion Spurs despite the injury that bothers you so much.

I mean its your list and you can obviously choose your own reasoning, but it really feels like you are using your frustrations from previous years to rank him lower this year specifically. I guess I just don't really think that's fair. And I'm certainly no Paul apologist as I think less of him than most. But I find almost nothing to fault him for this year. He's been brilliant from stem to stern.
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Re: All-Season Player of the Year Discussion thread 

Post#443 » by E-Balla » Fri May 15, 2015 11:07 pm

Chuck Texas wrote:
RSCD3_ wrote:
those missing games do in fact hurt his case and its seems he's been injury prone every single year in the playoffs so I dont know if one could say " if he was healthy " because healthy postseason paul hasnt existed in a long while .




That's a fair criticism of Paul except you were specifically speaking in the context of this season where he played 82 games and was the hero in the game 7 win over the defending champion Spurs despite the injury that bothers you so much.

I mean its your list and you can obviously choose your own reasoning, but it really feels like you are using your frustrations from previous years to rank him lower this year specifically. I guess I just don't really think that's fair. And I'm certainly no Paul apologist as I think less of him than most. But I find almost nothing to fault him for this year. He's been brilliant from stem to stern.

He said that in the context of a season where Chris Paul missed the first 2 games of the second round (including a loss) and is now facing the reality of losing after being up 3-1. You can say you don't fault him for that but most care about players missing playoff games in their rankings. Its probably the only reason Kobe wasn't top 5 in 2013.
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Re: All-Season Player of the Year Discussion thread 

Post#444 » by Jaivl » Sat May 16, 2015 12:25 am

E-Balla wrote:Its probably the only reason Kobe wasn't top 5 in 2013.

Hmmm defense?
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Re: All-Season Player of the Year Discussion thread 

Post#445 » by fuzzy_dunlop » Sat May 16, 2015 12:35 am

^
not sure I follow. Have you seen Kobe's alpha scowl? His epic floor slapping?

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Re: All-Season Player of the Year Discussion thread 

Post#446 » by RSCD3_ » Sat May 16, 2015 4:05 am

Big game by curry, helped keep the lead from shrinking too much in the 4th.

Glances at Chris Paul

32 PTS,10 assists on 62 TS% in the closeout game
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Re: All-Season Player of the Year Discussion thread 

Post#447 » by PaulieWal » Sat May 16, 2015 4:16 am

RSCD3_ wrote:Big game by curry, helped keep the lead from shrinking too much in the 4th.

Glances at Chris Paul

32 PTS,10 assists on 62 TS% in the closeout game


I don't say this often but the refs were a disgrace in that game. Sorry, I know your post has nothing to do with my point but I just feel very cheesed right now lol. Good thing GSW held on for the win.
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Re: All-Season Player of the Year Discussion thread 

Post#448 » by RSCD3_ » Sat May 16, 2015 4:23 am

PaulieWal wrote:
RSCD3_ wrote:Big game by curry, helped keep the lead from shrinking too much in the 4th.

Glances at Chris Paul

32 PTS,10 assists on 62 TS% in the closeout game


I don't say this often but the refs were a disgrace in that game. Sorry, I know your post has nothing to do with my point but I just feel very cheesed right now lol. Good thing GSW held on for the win.


Want to know something else?

Grizzlies had 21 assists and only 3 turnovers and they get +16 advantage on the FTA's

Still lost by 13, most of the time those numbers lead to that team winning by a lot.

Alas the Warriors were efficient as Hell

Memphis TS% = 45.6
Golden State TS% = 62.0!!! :onfire:
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Re: All-Season Player of the Year Discussion thread 

Post#449 » by PaulieWal » Sat May 16, 2015 4:26 am

RSCD3_ wrote:
PaulieWal wrote:
RSCD3_ wrote:Big game by curry, helped keep the lead from shrinking too much in the 4th.

Glances at Chris Paul

32 PTS,10 assists on 62 TS% in the closeout game


I don't say this often but the refs were a disgrace in that game. Sorry, I know your post has nothing to do with my point but I just feel very cheesed right now lol. Good thing GSW held on for the win.


Want to know something else?

Grizzlies had 21 assists and only 3 turnovers and they get +16 advantage on the FTA's

Still lost by 13, most of the time those numbers lead to that team winning by a lot.

Alas the Warriors were efficient as Hell

Memphis TS% = 45.6
Golden State TS% = 62.0!!! :onfire:


3>2 :D.

Sorry Barkley, you were wrong for once.
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Re: All-Season Player of the Year Discussion thread 

Post#450 » by RSCD3_ » Sat May 16, 2015 7:50 pm

ON/Off numbers for the playoffs among the " big 4 "

Curry +20
Paul +7
Harden -3
James -6
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Re: All-Season Player of the Year Discussion thread 

Post#451 » by Doctor MJ » Sat May 16, 2015 8:03 pm

PaulieWal wrote:
RSCD3_ wrote:
PaulieWal wrote:
I don't say this often but the refs were a disgrace in that game. Sorry, I know your post has nothing to do with my point but I just feel very cheesed right now lol. Good thing GSW held on for the win.


Want to know something else?

Grizzlies had 21 assists and only 3 turnovers and they get +16 advantage on the FTA's

Still lost by 13, most of the time those numbers lead to that team winning by a lot.

Alas the Warriors were efficient as Hell

Memphis TS% = 45.6
Golden State TS% = 62.0!!! :onfire:


3>2 :D.

Sorry Barkley, you were wrong for once.


Let me also say: I can't tell you how embarrassed I am for Phil Jackson when he chimed in gleefully mocking teams shooting 3's. Anyone talking like that now sounds so silly given that there was an era where people said the same type of stuff for teams who shot a fraction of the 3's teams make today. Heck, Jackson himself last won a championship with a team that shot 1500+ 3's 5 years ago. The notion of "1500 is totally reasonable and not at all 3-centric, but 2000 is crazy!" is absurd.
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Re: All-Season Player of the Year Discussion thread 

Post#452 » by therealbig3 » Sat May 16, 2015 8:11 pm

My candidates so far, in no order:

James Harden
Stephen Curry
LeBron James
Russell Westbrook
Chris Paul
Anthony Davis

Curry, Harden, Davis, and LeBron are virtual locks to make my top 5. Probably in that order. So the real debate for me comes down to Paul vs Westbrook.
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Re: All-Season Player of the Year Discussion thread 

Post#453 » by fuzzy_dunlop » Sat May 16, 2015 8:17 pm

why lebron over CP? the latter has been a substantially better IMO.
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Re: All-Season Player of the Year Discussion thread 

Post#454 » by HeartBreakKid » Sat May 16, 2015 8:19 pm

choking narrative is getting big again.
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Re: All-Season Player of the Year Discussion thread 

Post#455 » by therealbig3 » Sat May 16, 2015 8:26 pm

LeBron has struggled for sure, specifically with his outside shot. And he's turned the ball over a lot too. It's been his worst playoffs from a statistical perspective in a while, no doubt about it. CP3 is being CP3 and putting up his typical highly efficient stats.

But I feel like LeBron is being asked to do so much more for his team at this point, with Kyrie being hurt and Love out. And for example, even when LeBron is not making shots, his ability to draw defensive attention and create for others will always mean that he's a net positive impact offensive player on the court. And his defense has been excellent in these playoffs imo.

Paul is great though, and he has an argument over LeBron for sure. I just think that LeBron's inefficient scoring can cause people to underrate the impact he's still having for his team. I also feel like one of the only criticisms you can make of Paul is still holding true: part of the reason why he's so ultra efficient is because he plays really safe and can disappear for large stretches of games as a result. It's hard to really point out when LeBron isn't making a significant impact on the game though. Paul put up great numbers in the last 2 games, but it's hard to really praise him too much for it though, because he was a -8 and a -9 on the court during those games, and it's been noted by a few people how invisible he seemed to be down the stretch of the last game. And they were blown out in game 5 anyway.

And Paul did miss 2 playoff games.
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Re: All-Season Player of the Year Discussion thread 

Post#456 » by Doctor MJ » Sat May 16, 2015 10:02 pm

I'll refrain from updating my top 5 until after the 2nd round is totally done, but some thoughts:

Curry remains the clear #1 for me. The other superstars remaining all have the ability to pass him with stellar enough play, but there's no serious debate in my mind who is on top right now.

LeBron stands as the guy with the most straight forward path to passing Curry up. As much as we all lament that LeBron isn't more LeBron-y this year, and as much as I don't expect the Cavs to win the title, we all basically still think of LeBron as the best player in the game, and if he finishes that way with a team performance that's impressive enough, it won't be easy to rank him lower than 1st. Obviously that means getting to the Finals, but even if he doesn't win the title, it might be enough to sway me. It will probably take him making whoever the lead star of the Western finalist look like a boy next to him.

Paul & Griffin. It's interesting where we stand right now because the genius of each of this due now makes it hard for me to see either of them finishing 1st. It may happen anyway of course, but it will almost certainly require winning a championship with one of the two standing out above the other.

Harden. He's a superstar who is still playing, so he's still in the race, but I don't think anyone expects him to end up winning a title this year, and I'll be surprised if many people end up voting him #1 if his team falls short of that. Maybe I'm wrong, but I actually think the knives would already be out against him if not for his team epic comeback with him on the bench. That comeback may end up being the match to the flame when all is said & done, but I think most of us are going to wait and see how everything responds here. A loss to the Clippers though at this point means Harden will be remembered not simply for seeing his team lose with HCA (you're welcome JB), but that that they largely got outgunned without or without Chris Paul going against them, and that the only reason the series became anything more than a blowout is because of what his team did without him. This is not "doing more with less".

On that note: While Griffin is still trying to play his way into my Top 5, to me it seems at this point that Harden is the one most vulnerable to dropping out. Davis is on vacation now and so a #1 finish for him seems next to impossible, but he was also fundamentally solid in his playoff play further cementing that he's moved past the brief phase where his impact was much lower than his stats. Curry's pretty much clinched Top 5 status, LeBron will clinch it if he gets to the finals almost certainly. That leaves Chris Paul who has been amazing all year and was all the more so against the Spurs.

If Houston wins the series then Griffin simply isn't making my top 5, and that means none of the top 5 probably falls out, but if the Clippers win the title with Griffin as their alpha, it's pretty easy to me to see Harden falling below the 5 other guys mentioned.
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Re: All-Season Player of the Year Discussion thread 

Post#457 » by Doctor MJ » Sat May 16, 2015 10:04 pm

HeartBreakKid wrote:choking narrative is getting big again.


And it's so so annoying. Realistically I wouldn't be a regular on RealGM if I found it easy to simply ignore fools, but truly: Anyone bringing up that narrative is basically admitting that they don't know how to evaluate basketball players and simply follows the NBA as if its a soap opera. A choker would not have done what Paul did against the Spurs. End of story.
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Re: All-Season Player of the Year Discussion thread 

Post#458 » by fuzzy_dunlop » Sat May 16, 2015 10:07 pm

Why do you still think of him as the best player in the game? I mean I get the appeal of playing it safe and betting on one of the greatest players ever, but I don't see much in the way of an analytical argument for that position.
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Re: All-Season Player of the Year Discussion thread 

Post#459 » by HeartBreakKid » Sat May 16, 2015 10:24 pm

therealbig3 wrote:LeBron has struggled for sure, specifically with his outside shot. And he's turned the ball over a lot too. It's been his worst playoffs from a statistical perspective in a while, no doubt about it. CP3 is being CP3 and putting up his typical highly efficient stats.

But I feel like LeBron is being asked to do so much more for his team at this point, with Kyrie being hurt and Love out. And for example, even when LeBron is not making shots, his ability to draw defensive attention and create for others will always mean that he's a net positive impact offensive player on the court. And his defense has been excellent in these playoffs imo.

Paul is great though, and he has an argument over LeBron for sure. I just think that LeBron's inefficient scoring can cause people to underrate the impact he's still having for his team. I also feel like one of the only criticisms you can make of Paul is still holding true: part of the reason why he's so ultra efficient is because he plays really safe and can disappear for large stretches of games as a result. It's hard to really point out when LeBron isn't making a significant impact on the game though. Paul put up great numbers in the last 2 games, but it's hard to really praise him too much for it though, because he was a -8 and a -9 on the court during those games, and it's been noted by a few people how invisible he seemed to be down the stretch of the last game. And they were blown out in game 5 anyway.

And Paul did miss 2 playoff games.


The super efficient criticism that CP3 gets is the same exact thing that James gets. Both are effecient, and both are criticized for playing safe and taking safe shots, which I don't think either one has that much basis for.

At the end of the day, CP3 might have played better down the stretch, but he still put up 28 points - with 11 or 12 assist on top of that. How can a player be passive when they nearly had 30 points?

He's ultra efficient because he's a good decision maker, has the best handles and has an elite jump shot, he's not a game manager.


While Paul did miss 2 games, he still played all 82 games in the RS, and he's playing against much better competition than Lebron is - really the Clippers have had harder opponents than anyone in this playoff stretch. The Rockets are just a downgrade from the Spurs, so people are looking as if the Rockets are a scrub team, when they're a solid Western team - which would make them a contender in the East (pretty much better than every team in the East but a healthy Cleveland).



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The Clippers losing to the Rockets will look bad because they are a much better team, but I don't know how Blake Griffin can be penalized heavily for it. The real truth it, if CP3 had been healthy during this series, they could have even swept the Rockets - Blake Griffin has been a constant force and even won game 1 (almost game 2) without CP3 against a playoff caliber team. He seems to be a much more effective player than James Harden in the post season.
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Re: All-Season Player of the Year Discussion thread 

Post#460 » by Doctor MJ » Sat May 16, 2015 10:45 pm

fuzzy_dunlop wrote:Why do you still think of him as the best player in the game? I mean I get the appeal of playing it safe and betting on one of the greatest players ever, but I don't see much in the way of an analytical argument for that position.


Through the end of last season he was the best player in the game, and had been for a half decade. We know that that won't last forever, but until we actually see him outplayed when it counts, he looms on my mind.
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