'17-'18 POY discussion

[The High Cyde]

How is LeBron so much better than his peers, especially Curry and Durant. There was a Grand Canyon sized difference in greatness on the court last night by a player in his 15th season with like 50000 minutes on him. Absurd.

Those refs should be fired, what a disgrace to the game, helping out a team with 4 hall of famers with bogus ass calls. Tack that on with the most frontrunning team in sports history, and man that's as unlikable as a team will ever get.

[Clyde Frazier]

And Curry was only still on the board when the Warriors picked him because he pulled a Kobe and manipulated the Timberwolves into not drafting him.

Huh?

Edit - in the middle of reading the article about this...

[Starboy]

isn't it crazy to think that this title might end up doing nothing for Curry/Durant in an all-time sense? their expectations have been so high with significant underperformance, their flaws have gotten the spotlight, they're getting outshone by a guy on the other team, and they're turning more and more people off with each passing game. what if they lose an FMVP to Lebron?

I mean it'd be one thing if it was GP on the 06 Heat but it's two superstars in the middle of their prime and yet...I couldn't see them vaulting up an all-time list.

Durant joined the 73-win team that beat him, and Curry helped recruit him. This title shouldn't do anything positive for their legacies. Nothing they ever win together should.

When you collude to stack the deck at a level that is structurally impossible for any other team to match, and there's no real competition, winning a ring every year is what you're supposed to do. Praising them for that is like praising them for showing up to the arena on time for the games.

And yes, the fact that they're getting exposed this badly and still winning due to their team's unfair talent advantage + biased officiating makes it even worse.

Interesting.

That's kind of unfortunate for Lebron's legacy considering he has nothing going for him besides making finals against weak competition and 1 championship ring. The rings with Wade and Bosh don't add anything positive to his legacy. Kind of sad.

[bondom34]

isn't it crazy to think that this title might end up doing nothing for Curry/Durant in an all-time sense? their expectations have been so high with significant underperformance, their flaws have gotten the spotlight, they're getting outshone by a guy on the other team, and they're turning more and more people off with each passing game. what if they lose an FMVP to Lebron?

I mean it'd be one thing if it was GP on the 06 Heat but it's two superstars in the middle of their prime and yet...I couldn't see them vaulting up an all-time list.

Durant joined the 73-win team that beat him, and Curry helped recruit him. This title shouldn't do anything positive for their legacies. Nothing they ever win together should.

When you collude to stack the deck at a level that is structurally impossible for any other team to match, and there's no real competition, winning a ring every year is what you're supposed to do. Praising them for that is like praising them for showing up to the arena on time for the games.

And yes, the fact that they're getting exposed this badly and still winning due to their team's unfair talent advantage + biased officiating makes it even worse.

Interesting.

That's kind of unfortunate for Lebron's legacy considering he has nothing going for him besides making finals against weak competition and 1 championship ring. The rings with Wade and Bosh don't add anything positive to his legacy. Kind of sad.

There is a pretty significant gap between the two. Chasm.

[MartinToVaught]

I can understand it matters to him. I don't see this being a problem long term for his legacy if the warriors keep this run going. Winning this year and next year would really put his legacy up there for anyone who follows the game for decades to come. If the warriors fall off, then perhaps the 2 titles will have less meaning than it normally would.

Anyone who follows the game closely enough to have heard of Durant decades from now will also be aware of the unimpressive context in which these rings have been won.

[MartinToVaught]

Interesting.

That's kind of unfortunate for Lebron's legacy considering he has nothing going for him besides making finals against weak competition and 1 championship ring. The rings with Wade and Bosh don't add anything positive to his legacy. Kind of sad.

Durant's defenders can keep trying to force this comparison, but it's never going to work. There is no comparable move in sports history to Durant joining the Warriors.

[Starboy]

Durant joined the 73-win team that beat him, and Curry helped recruit him. This title shouldn't do anything positive for their legacies. Nothing they ever win together should.

When you collude to stack the deck at a level that is structurally impossible for any other team to match, and there's no real competition, winning a ring every year is what you're supposed to do. Praising them for that is like praising them for showing up to the arena on time for the games.

And yes, the fact that they're getting exposed this badly and still winning due to their team's unfair talent advantage + biased officiating makes it even worse.

Interesting.

That's kind of unfortunate for Lebron's legacy considering he has nothing going for him besides making finals against weak competition and 1 championship ring. The rings with Wade and Bosh don't add anything positive to his legacy. Kind of sad.

There is a pretty significant gap between the two. Chasm.

Not really.

[fanofthegreats]

Interesting.

That's kind of unfortunate for Lebron's legacy considering he has nothing going for him besides making finals against weak competition and 1 championship ring. The rings with Wade and Bosh don't add anything positive to his legacy. Kind of sad.

There is a pretty significant gap between the two. Chasm.

Not really.

Yes really.

[bondom34]

Interesting.

That's kind of unfortunate for Lebron's legacy considering he has nothing going for him besides making finals against weak competition and 1 championship ring. The rings with Wade and Bosh don't add anything positive to his legacy. Kind of sad.

There is a pretty significant gap between the two. Chasm.

Not really.

Yes, really. Not even going into heavier detail but:

1. LeBron left a bad, aging, and starless Cavs team. Durant left Westbrook, Oladipo, and likely Horford.

2. LeBron joined a team much worse than the 73 win juggernaut.

3. James didn't lose to the Heat the year prior.

4. LeBron joined a 0 time MVP. Durant joined a 2 time MVP.

5. The Heat weren't a title level team without LeBron. The Warriors were well one without Durant.

6. The Heat had some doubt due to fit and competition. The Warriors did not

It's the same in the way that a child pocketing a pack of gum is robbery just like stealing 100K from a store is robbery.

[MartinToVaught]

Not really.

Were we watching the same game?

LeBron dropped 51/8/8 and made it look easy. Durant's name was barely called, other than when the refs were bailing him out with bogus calls.

LeBron was playing with scrubs against an all-star team. Durant was on said all-star team.

It's not even close. The gap has actually increased between LeBron and Durant, not decreased. And people need to stop comparing Durant to LeBron anyway. He isn't even better than Curry or a healthy Kawhi.

[ronnymac2]

isn't it crazy to think that this title might end up doing nothing for Curry/Durant in an all-time sense? their expectations have been so high with significant underperformance, their flaws have gotten the spotlight, they're getting outshone by a guy on the other team, and they're turning more and more people off with each passing game. what if they lose an FMVP to Lebron?

I mean it'd be one thing if it was GP on the 06 Heat but it's two superstars in the middle of their prime and yet...I couldn't see them vaulting up an all-time list.

Why does it not help Curry? He might get his Finals MVP, and I don't have that much criticism over how he's approached the game these playoffs compared to Durant

Really? I see that teams can lower his USG% AND his efficiency by doing simple things like switching and playing physical. This does not require tremendous personnel. He has basically one way to hurt you, and you can tamp down how much he hurts you in that one way.

IF one is to argue that Curry's not playing like normal because of Kevin Durant (which is not something I agree with, just following the logic), then Curry is at fault because he is playing too passively. Curry is the point guard who ultimately has second-by-second control of the action; he can take matters into his own hands instead of passing the ball off to KD just to never get it back. Please note that this is not my criticism of Curry, because I don't think Durant passing the ball to Durant is a huge issue (though he probably does do it too much).

[fanofthegreats]

Let the Golden state fans live in their delusion. It makes their paper championships mean something to them.

[Pillendreher]

My theory is that it's insecurity on Durant's part. It really got under his skin that nobody respected his ring last year. That was evident from his burner accounts, how visibly upset he was about Peyton Manning's joke at the ESPYs, and all the defensive comments he's made in the media all year.

So now he's playing isoball, desperately trying to make it look like he's carrying a team that needs him to win. In the process, he's actually just exposing all his flaws as a player and leader.

There might be something to this, I think. Even without playing "armchair psychologist", I think we can all agree that Durant is very insecure and dumbfounded by the lack of global praise for him. Maybe he thought that he has to show people something special so that they finally respect him the way he wants them to. Like "Last season I was part of the team and nobody cared; I'll show them this year" or something along those lines.

Or maybe it's just what he's always done, only this time there's no Westbrook around to take the blame for it

[Pillendreher]

There is a pretty significant gap between the two. Chasm.

Not really.

Yes, really. Not even going into heavier detail but:

1. LeBron left a bad, aging, and starless Cavs team. Durant left Westbrook, Oladipo, and likely Horford.

You forgot to mention that Dion "AND ONE" Waiters was still on the team at that point. And hell, even Thunder legend Cam Payne was still there.

EDIT: Seriously though...

Westbrook-Roberson-Durant-Horford-Adams

with Oladipo coming off the bench...not even Donovan could have screwed that up

[fanofthegreats]

Not really.

Yes, really. Not even going into heavier detail but:

1. LeBron left a bad, aging, and starless Cavs team. Durant left Westbrook, Oladipo, and likely Horford.

You forgot to mention that Dion "AND ONE" Waiters was still on the team at that point. And hell, even Thunder legend Cam Payne was still there.

EDIT: Seriously though...

Westbrook-Roberson-Durant-Horford-Adams

with Oladipo coming off the bench...not even Donovan could have screwed that up

lol no. That wasn't good enough for KD. Ironically, had he won with that team. His legacy and reputation would have been light years ahead of his current pathetic state.

[Starboy]

There is a pretty significant gap between the two. Chasm.

Not really.

Yes, really. Not even going into heavier detail but:

1. LeBron left a bad, aging, and starless Cavs team. Durant left Westbrook, Oladipo, and likely Horford.

2. LeBron joined a team much worse than the 73 win juggernaut.

3. James didn't lose to the Heat the year prior.

4. LeBron joined a 0 time MVP. Durant joined a 2 time MVP.

5. The Heat weren't a title level team without LeBron. The Warriors were well one without Durant.

6. The Heat had some doubt due to fit and competition. The Warriors did not

It's the same in the way that a child pocketing a pack of gum is robbery just like stealing 100K from a store is robbery.

1. Doesn't matter.
2. Lebron came in with another 24/12 guy.
3. Doesn't matter.
4. So Curry is much better than Wade to you then. Ok.
5. How does this hurt Curry's legacy and why shouldn't he get any credit for his 4 finals runs?
6. Another impressive addition to Curry's legacy. Being the clear #1 superstar on the best team of all time and you can add another MVP without fit issues.

I don't see how any of this should affect Curry's, Klay's or Green's legacies.

[MartinToVaught]

Yes, really. Not even going into heavier detail but:

1. LeBron left a bad, aging, and starless Cavs team. Durant left Westbrook, Oladipo, and likely Horford.

2. LeBron joined a team much worse than the 73 win juggernaut.

3. James didn't lose to the Heat the year prior.

4. LeBron joined a 0 time MVP. Durant joined a 2 time MVP.

5. The Heat weren't a title level team without LeBron. The Warriors were well one without Durant.

6. The Heat had some doubt due to fit and competition. The Warriors did not

7. The Heat were vulnerable. They lost in the Finals twice and could have easily lost to the Celtics and Pacers had LeBron not carried them. In contrast, the Warriors+KD have played in one series ever that went longer than 5 games - and even that was only because Durant choked multiple games away.

8. Wade declined after 2011 due to severe knee injuries.

9. Bosh was never the superstar he was hyped up to be. (He does deserve credit for becoming a better defensive player in Miami, though.)

10. The Heat had very little depth - to the point where haters whined that Miami adding a 37-year-old Ray Allen was "unfair." The Warriors have a Finals MVP on their bench (yes, I know he's injured right now).

[bondom34]

Not really.

Yes, really. Not even going into heavier detail but:

1. LeBron left a bad, aging, and starless Cavs team. Durant left Westbrook, Oladipo, and likely Horford.

2. LeBron joined a team much worse than the 73 win juggernaut.

3. James didn't lose to the Heat the year prior.

4. LeBron joined a 0 time MVP. Durant joined a 2 time MVP.

5. The Heat weren't a title level team without LeBron. The Warriors were well one without Durant.

6. The Heat had some doubt due to fit and competition. The Warriors did not

It's the same in the way that a child pocketing a pack of gum is robbery just like stealing 100K from a store is robbery.

1. Doesn't matter.
2. Lebron came in with another 24/12 guy.
3. Doesn't matter.
4. So Curry is much better than Wade to you then. Ok.
5. How does this hurt Curry's legacy and why shouldn't he get any credit for his 4 finals runs?
6. Another impressive addition to Curry's legacy. Being the clear #1 superstar on the best team of all time and you can add another MVP without fit issues.

I don't see how any of this should affect Curry's, Klay's or Green's legacies.

1 and 3 actually would matter. It's the difference between someone winning as the beat player or being Robert Horry.

2. Picking a random stat line is irrelevant. And Bosh never averaged that. And Durant also joined a DPOY so...

4. You don't think Curry's unanimous MVP season was better than 2009 Wade? Wow.

5 and 6. Wasn't speaking on Curry. These rings don't help as much as they would have without Durant, who they could have easily won without. They needed someone better than .431 TS Harrison Barnes. If.Durant is that, OK. But that's not impressive.

So yes, this is actually how you'd define legacy.

[dhsilv2]

I can understand it matters to him. I don't see this being a problem long term for his legacy if the warriors keep this run going. Winning this year and next year would really put his legacy up there for anyone who follows the game for decades to come. If the warriors fall off, then perhaps the 2 titles will have less meaning than it normally would.

Anyone who follows the game closely enough to have heard of Durant decades from now will also be aware of the unimpressive context in which these rings have been won.

3 straight titles is never unimpressive, ever, period end of story.

[Starboy]

Yes, really. Not even going into heavier detail but:

1. LeBron left a bad, aging, and starless Cavs team. Durant left Westbrook, Oladipo, and likely Horford.

2. LeBron joined a team much worse than the 73 win juggernaut.

3. James didn't lose to the Heat the year prior.

4. LeBron joined a 0 time MVP. Durant joined a 2 time MVP.

5. The Heat weren't a title level team without LeBron. The Warriors were well one without Durant.

6. The Heat had some doubt due to fit and competition. The Warriors did not

It's the same in the way that a child pocketing a pack of gum is robbery just like stealing 100K from a store is robbery.

1. Doesn't matter.
2. Lebron came in with another 24/12 guy.
3. Doesn't matter.
4. So Curry is much better than Wade to you then. Ok.
5. How does this hurt Curry's legacy and why shouldn't he get any credit for his 4 finals runs?
6. Another impressive addition to Curry's legacy. Being the clear #1 superstar on the best team of all time and you can add another MVP without fit issues.

I don't see how any of this should affect Curry's, Klay's or Green's legacies.

1 and 3 actually would matter. It's the difference between someone winning as the beat player or being Robert Horry.

2. Picking a random stat line is irrelevant. And Bosh never averaged that. And Durant also joined a DPOY so...

4. You don't think Curry's unanimous MVP season was better than 2009 Wade? Wow.

5 and 6. Wasn't speaking on Curry. These rings don't help as much as they would have without Durant, who they could have easily won without. They needed someone better than .431 TS Harrison Barnes. If.Durant is that, OK. But that's not impressive.

So yes, this is actually how you'd define legacy.

KD is Robert Horry?

Sorry 24/11 on 59% TS on a playoff team as a clear #1 player. Not impressive and irrelevant.

I was speaking on the Lebron fan's post, which said that "Curry and Durant winning doesn't add to their legacy at all", which is absurd. I haven't seen anything on this page to show me why winning 2/4 with Wade, Bosh and Ray Allen adds to a top 3 player's of all time legacy, but winning with Durant, Klay and Green doesn't add to a top 20~ player's of all time legacy.