'17-'18 POY discussion

[MartinToVaught]

I can understand it matters to him. I don't see this being a problem long term for his legacy if the warriors keep this run going. Winning this year and next year would really put his legacy up there for anyone who follows the game for decades to come. If the warriors fall off, then perhaps the 2 titles will have less meaning than it normally would.

Anyone who follows the game closely enough to have heard of Durant decades from now will also be aware of the unimpressive context in which these rings have been won.

3 straight titles is never unimpressive, ever, period end of story.

If this was a normal team, I'd agree with you. But this Warriors team should win a ring every year they're together. If they win, they're just doing what they're supposed to do, given how much they've stacked the deck in their favor. If they lose, it's a legacy-defining failure.

You might think that's unfair, but it's the standard that KD set by joining the 73 win team that beat him, and it's the standard that the rest of the Hamptons Five set by recruiting KD to their 73-win team. They put this team together to win easy rings without competing for them, so anything short of non-competitive easy rings is a failure.

[The-Power]

This thread has become unbearable to read – full of weird hot takes, drifting into off-topic all the time, emotions taking completely over – and this on (what used to be) the one board on RealGM where you could have reasonable and rational discussions. With plenty of disagreements, sure, but intellectual instead of emotion-driven ones.

It's a pity and makes me avoid this board, and this thread in particular, during this time of the year even though I used to assign priority to this board and thread in the past. But if that kind of conversation is fun to you guys, then by all means go ahead. Who am I to tell you that it's neither fun, nor informative, nor constructive – maybe it's just me.

Maybe the Warriors, and Durant in particular, have ruined basketball for you. But you're ruining the great culture and discussions on this board as a reaction and I hope I'm allowed to feel pissed as well. I'll go a different route, though, and just avoid this thread instead of going on and on about the same issues in an overly emotional manner. Hope that's okay, too.

[bondom34]

1. Doesn't matter.
2. Lebron came in with another 24/12 guy.
3. Doesn't matter.
4. So Curry is much better than Wade to you then. Ok.
5. How does this hurt Curry's legacy and why shouldn't he get any credit for his 4 finals runs?
6. Another impressive addition to Curry's legacy. Being the clear #1 superstar on the best team of all time and you can add another MVP without fit issues.

I don't see how any of this should affect Curry's, Klay's or Green's legacies.

1 and 3 actually would matter. It's the difference between someone winning as the beat player or being Robert Horry.

2. Picking a random stat line is irrelevant. And Bosh never averaged that. And Durant also joined a DPOY so...

4. You don't think Curry's unanimous MVP season was better than 2009 Wade? Wow.

5 and 6. Wasn't speaking on Curry. These rings don't help as much as they would have without Durant, who they could have easily won without. They needed someone better than .431 TS Harrison Barnes. If.Durant is that, OK. But that's not impressive.

So yes, this is actually how you'd define legacy.

KD is Robert Horry?

Sorry 24/11 on 59% TS on a playoff team as a clear #1 player. Not impressive and irrelevant.

I was speaking on the Lebron fan's post, which said that "Curry and Durant winning doesn't add to their legacy at all", which is absurd. I haven't seen anything on this page to show me why winning 2/4 with Wade, Bosh and Ray Allen adds to a top 3 player's of all time legacy, but winning with Durant, Klay and Green doesn't add to a top 20~ player's of all time legacy.

1. He's not a LeBron fan.

2. Because those Heat teams weren't winning without LeBron. He was why they won rings. Durant isn't the main reason.

3. Did you just compare Klay to 37 year old Ray Allen? Because that's....something

[MartinToVaught]

This thread has become unbearable to read – full of weird hot takes, drifting into off-topic all the time, emotions taking completely over – and this on (what used to be) the one board on RealGM where you could have reasonable and rational discussions. With plenty of disagreements, sure, but intellectual instead of emotion-driven ones.

It's a pity and makes me avoid this board, and this thread in particular, during this time of the year even though I used to assign priority to this board and thread in the past. But if that kind of conversation is fun to you guys, then by all means go ahead. Who am I to tell you that it's neither fun, nor informative, nor constructive – maybe it's just me.

IDK, I'm not really seeing an issue with this thread right now. What in particular stands out to you as "weird hot takes" as opposed to "reasonable and rational discussions"?

[Starboy]

1 and 3 actually would matter. It's the difference between someone winning as the beat player or being Robert Horry.

2. Picking a random stat line is irrelevant. And Bosh never averaged that. And Durant also joined a DPOY so...

4. You don't think Curry's unanimous MVP season was better than 2009 Wade? Wow.

5 and 6. Wasn't speaking on Curry. These rings don't help as much as they would have without Durant, who they could have easily won without. They needed someone better than .431 TS Harrison Barnes. If.Durant is that, OK. But that's not impressive.

So yes, this is actually how you'd define legacy.

KD is Robert Horry?

Sorry 24/11 on 59% TS on a playoff team as a clear #1 player. Not impressive and irrelevant.

I was speaking on the Lebron fan's post, which said that "Curry and Durant winning doesn't add to their legacy at all", which is absurd. I haven't seen anything on this page to show me why winning 2/4 with Wade, Bosh and Ray Allen adds to a top 3 player's of all time legacy, but winning with Durant, Klay and Green doesn't add to a top 20~ player's of all time legacy.

1. He's not a LeBron fan.

2. Because those Heat teams weren't winning without LeBron. He was why they won rings. Durant isn't the main reason.

3. Did you just compare Klay to 37 year old Ray Allen? Because that's....something

1.

2. Curry is, so how does it not add to his legacy. Still haven't heard of a good explanation.

3. Did I compare Klay to a 37 year old Ray Allen?

[MartinToVaught]

1. He's not a LeBron fan.

I am a fan of LeBron, but I'm also a fan of context and facts. And both of those favor LeBron, not Durant.

[bondom34]

KD is Robert Horry?

Sorry 24/11 on 59% TS on a playoff team as a clear #1 player. Not impressive and irrelevant.

I was speaking on the Lebron fan's post, which said that "Curry and Durant winning doesn't add to their legacy at all", which is absurd. I haven't seen anything on this page to show me why winning 2/4 with Wade, Bosh and Ray Allen adds to a top 3 player's of all time legacy, but winning with Durant, Klay and Green doesn't add to a top 20~ player's of all time legacy.

1. He's not a LeBron fan.

2. Because those Heat teams weren't winning without LeBron. He was why they won rings. Durant isn't the main reason.

3. Did you just compare Klay to 37 year old Ray Allen? Because that's....something

1.

2. Curry is, so how does it not add to his legacy. Still haven't heard of a good explanation.

3. Did I compare Klay to a 37 year old Ray Allen?

1. Ok. He's still not. Unless you could be called a Durant fan? But I'd say you're a Warriors fan.

2. It does. Slightly less because of Durant, which is a shame for Curry.

3. You mentioned Allen with Wade and Bosh. So yes, you kinda did. Unless you're saying Durant plays with Curry, Green, and Nick Young. Which seems an odd way to look at the teams. It would be Klay.

[Doctor MJ]

How is LeBron so much better than his peers, especially Curry and Durant. There was a Grand Canyon sized difference in greatness on the court last night by a player in his 15th season with like 50000 minutes on him. Absurd.

Those refs should be fired, what a disgrace to the game, helping out a team with 4 hall of famers with bogus ass calls. Tack that on with the most frontrunning team in sports history, and man that's as unlikable as a team will ever get.

I've obviously been thinking a lot LeBron lately, as have we all. I'm on record having very specific complaints about his interaction with teammates later in his career, and that hasn't changed, but just speaking to what he does as an individual out there on the court, it feels like he just keeps learning and learning.

I think that when we talk about LeBron's defining moment that's always going to be winning the 2016 finals, but I feel like his command of the game has continued to rise unabated since then. In a very real sense, whatever moment we're in can be said to be LeBron's peak, only to be surpassed by the next moment.

LeBron's not alone in being like this, but it's far from the norm with superstars, and LeBron's insane durability and all around talent make him stand out. When the season ends I'm going to for the first time have to seriously question whether I can justify putting anyone ahead of him in my GOAT list. My gut feeling right now is that I'll still give Russell the edge, but that LeBron will move to #2 on my list ahead of Jordan.

[bondom34]

As a final PS, sorry if I'm guilty of this veering too far off course as well. I do however think the parts about legacy are true regarding these players.

[Texas Chuck]

IDK, I'm not really seeing an issue with this thread right now. What in particular stands out to you as "weird hot takes" as opposed to "reasonable and rational discussions"?

no offense, but if you can't see it, you likely aren't going to even if he were to point out specifics to you. Maybe just respect how he feels?

We've always had posters pushing agendas rather than driving real discussion, but its mostly been fairly limited and contained. This thread has turned into more of a GB style which certainly has its place, but its place honestly isn't here.

[The-Power]

IDK, I'm not really seeing an issue with this thread right now. What in particular stands out to you as "weird hot takes" as opposed to "reasonable and rational discussions"?

For instance that this is the POY thread and we're still comparing Durant's move to LeBron's, after the 500 threads and 20000 posts that have been written about that over the past two years. Or talking about how unfair the Warriors are, or how much we dislike them, or how laughable the NBA is in its pro-Warriors agenda. That's GB level of conversation and does not do justice to the standards this board has prided itself with over the past years.

edit: and to be clear, it's not that I don't see some of the points you guys make (at least from an emotional POV) and see why some of you feel the way you do; it's that I don't see the purpose of going on and on about this in this thread, and the value it has for the wider PC board community.

It's terrible to read for everyone who wants to learn, discuss or read about the players performances, and I'm not even sure those who are participating in those seemingly endless discussions about irrelevant topics – for the purpose of this thread – are having fun. It's probably just being constantly emotionally triggered and consequently having the urgent feeling to respond and keep doing that until the fingers and eyes bleed. Just let it go.

But as I said, I'm simply going to avoid this thread for the most part and won't engage. You guys can go ahead if you like it, I'm not going to stand in anybody's way. But if you're not feeling satisfied having this discussion, maybe you should reflect on what you're actually doing there then and disengange as well.

[Starboy]

1. He's not a LeBron fan.

2. Because those Heat teams weren't winning without LeBron. He was why they won rings. Durant isn't the main reason.

3. Did you just compare Klay to 37 year old Ray Allen? Because that's....something

1.

2. Curry is, so how does it not add to his legacy. Still haven't heard of a good explanation.

3. Did I compare Klay to a 37 year old Ray Allen?

1. Ok. He's still not. Unless you could be called a Durant fan? But I'd say you're a Warriors fan.

2. It does. Slightly less because of Durant, which is a shame for Curry.

3. You mentioned Allen with Wade and Bosh. So yes, you kinda did. Unless you're saying Durant plays with Curry, Green, and Nick Young. Which seems an odd way to look at the teams. It would be Klay.

1. He's not a Cavs fan but the overwhelming majority of his posts are about Lebron.

2. That's fine. Slightly less than it would be if he was a clear #1 sure. But he said "winning does nothing to their legacy", which is the exact absurd statement I'm arguing.

3. Well it's not a one to one comparison. It's a supporting cast snapshot. Warriors are better than the Heat, so it's not a surprise that their team is more talented. That doesn't change that Lebron had a fantastic supporting cast. With the lack of "superteams" back then, the talent is fairly even. OKC was the only "superteam" besides Heat and they were very young and inexperienced. Lebron got plenty of praise for winning with those cats and so should Curry and Durant depending on how they play. If Curry or Durant coasted to the ring without any adversity or while playing subpar basketball, don't give them as much credit. If Curry puts up a near 30 point triple double and Durant puts up 35 ppg while hitting a game winner in a crucial game, they deserve just as much credit as Lebron gets for the wins in Heat. It's that simple.

[Starboy]

IDK, I'm not really seeing an issue with this thread right now. What in particular stands out to you as "weird hot takes" as opposed to "reasonable and rational discussions"?

For instance that this is the POY thread and we're still comparing Durant's move to LeBron's, after the 500 threads and 20000 posts that have been written about that over the past two years. Or talking about how unfair the Warriors are, or how much we dislike them, or how laughable the NBA is in its pro-Warriors agenda. That's GB level of conversation and does not do justice to the standards this board has prided itself with over the past years.

It's terrible to read for everyone who wants to learn, discuss or read about the players performances, and I'm not even sure those who are participating in those seemingly endless discussions about irrelevant topics – for the purpose of this thread – are having fun. It's probably just being constantly emotionally triggered and consequently having the urgent feeling to respond and keep doing that until the fingers and eyes bleed. Just let it go.

But as I said, I'm simply going to avoid this thread for the most part and won't engage. You guys can go ahead if you like it, I'm not going to stand in anybody's way. But if you're not feeling satisfied having this discussion, maybe you should reflect on what you're actually doing there then and disengange as well.

This is true. I am part of that conversation as well, so I won't respond any further here. This wouldn't be an issue if posts like his wouldn't be full of and1's with people agreeing with it to prop up a certain player, as they don't add anything to the conversation.

[bondom34]

1.

2. Curry is, so how does it not add to his legacy. Still haven't heard of a good explanation.

3. Did I compare Klay to a 37 year old Ray Allen?

1. Ok. He's still not. Unless you could be called a Durant fan? But I'd say you're a Warriors fan.

2. It does. Slightly less because of Durant, which is a shame for Curry.

3. You mentioned Allen with Wade and Bosh. So yes, you kinda did. Unless you're saying Durant plays with Curry, Green, and Nick Young. Which seems an odd way to look at the teams. It would be Klay.

1. He's not a Cavs fan but the overwhelming majority of his posts are about Lebron.

2. That's fine. Slightly less than it would be if he was a clear #1 sure. But he said "winning does nothing to their legacy", which is the exact absurd statement I'm arguing.

3. Well it's not a one to one comparison. It's a supporting cast snapshot. Warriors are better than the Heat, so it's not a surprise that their team is more talented. That doesn't change that Lebron had a fantastic supporting cast. With the lack of "superteams" back then, the talent is fairly even. OKC was the only "superteam" besides Heat and they were very young and inexperienced. Lebron got plenty of praise for winning with those cats and so should Curry and Durant depending on how they play. If Curry or Durant coasted to the ring without any adversity or while playing subpar basketball, don't give them as much credit. If Curry puts up a near 30 point triple double and Durant puts up 35 ppg while hitting a game winner in a crucial game, they deserve just as much credit as Lebron gets for the wins in Heat. It's that simple.

Those Heat teams were never in any way comparable to the Warriors. It's not close it talent at all.

[microfib4thewin]

As long as there is a rabid fanbase for the player they will get credit for winning rings no matter how bad they performed. How much credit they should get is its own discussion.

[Joey Wheeler]

It's crazy and downright incomprehensible just how good Lebron is in his 15th season. Durant is a great player in his own right, but yesterday it didn't even look he belonged in the same league as Lebron. It's not just the production, but the ease of it all, at times Lebron looked like a college player in a game of middle schoolers such was his control and supremacy.

[MartinToVaught]

IDK, I'm not really seeing an issue with this thread right now. What in particular stands out to you as "weird hot takes" as opposed to "reasonable and rational discussions"?

For instance that this is the POY thread and we're still comparing Durant's move to LeBron's, after the 500 threads and 20000 posts that have been written about that over the past two years. Or talking about how unfair the Warriors are, or how much we dislike them, or how laughable the NBA is in its pro-Warriors agenda. That's GB level of conversation and does not do justice to the standards this board has prided itself with over the past years.

edit: and to be clear, it's not that I don't see some of the points you guys make (at least from an emotional POV) and see why some of you feel the way you do; it's that I don't see the purpose of going on and on about this in this thread, and the value it has for the wider PC board community.

It's terrible to read for everyone who wants to learn, discuss or read about the players performances, and I'm not even sure those who are participating in those seemingly endless discussions about irrelevant topics – for the purpose of this thread – are having fun. It's probably just being constantly emotionally triggered and consequently having the urgent feeling to respond and keep doing that until the fingers and eyes bleed. Just let it go.

But as I said, I'm simply going to avoid this thread for the most part and won't engage. You guys can go ahead if you like it, I'm not going to stand in anybody's way. But if you're not feeling satisfied having this discussion, maybe you should reflect on what you're actually doing there then and disengange as well.

I can see your perspective. I get it, I really do. I just think it's difficult to talk about these Finals without acknowledging the massive talent disparity created by Durant's decision. It's so influential on the outcomes of the games, the legacies of all the star players involved and how fans view them, that any discussion of the Finals is naturally going to come back to Durant's decision.

[Joey Wheeler]

If anything these Finals (and last year's) are vindicating Durant's decision. Warriors dynasty wouldn't have happened without Durant, no way do they stop Lebron last year (and this year) without him, most likely don't even get out of the West this year...

[Ambrose]

This thread has become unbearable to read – full of weird hot takes, drifting into off-topic all the time, emotions taking completely over – and this on (what used to be) the one board on RealGM where you could have reasonable and rational discussions. With plenty of disagreements, sure, but intellectual instead of emotion-driven ones.

It's a pity and makes me avoid this board, and this thread in particular, during this time of the year even though I used to assign priority to this board and thread in the past. But if that kind of conversation is fun to you guys, then by all means go ahead. Who am I to tell you that it's neither fun, nor informative, nor constructive – maybe it's just me.

Maybe the Warriors, and Durant in particular, have ruined basketball for you. But you're ruining the great culture and discussions on this board as a reaction and I hope I'm allowed to feel pissed as well. I'll go a different route, though, and just avoid this thread instead of going on and on about the same issues in an overly emotional manner. Hope that's okay, too.

How did this help? You're like the 4th Warrior fan to come in and whine while ironically also not discuss the main topic of the thread.

LeBron is the clear POY for most people at this point. It's been discussed plenty. Basically it's going to go on tangents until the actual vote can be held.

[Clyde Frazier]

This thread has become unbearable to read – full of weird hot takes, drifting into off-topic all the time, emotions taking completely over – and this on (what used to be) the one board on RealGM where you could have reasonable and rational discussions. With plenty of disagreements, sure, but intellectual instead of emotion-driven ones.

It's a pity and makes me avoid this board, and this thread in particular, during this time of the year even though I used to assign priority to this board and thread in the past. But if that kind of conversation is fun to you guys, then by all means go ahead. Who am I to tell you that it's neither fun, nor informative, nor constructive – maybe it's just me.

Maybe the Warriors, and Durant in particular, have ruined basketball for you. But you're ruining the great culture and discussions on this board as a reaction and I hope I'm allowed to feel pissed as well. I'll go a different route, though, and just avoid this thread instead of going on and on about the same issues in an overly emotional manner. Hope that's okay, too.

I can understand your frustration as there have been some tangents taken in this thread that i'd ultimately call a waste of time. We like to keep the discussion pretty open unless it becomes volatile, though.

That said, I like to drop my thoughts in here throughout the playoffs to get opinions of the rest of the regulars as i value their opinions highly, and that would include you. So i hope you continue to check in even if the thread has gotten a little... "messy" for the lack of a better word.