2021-22 NBA Season Discussion

[Jaivl]

My issue with Steph is the front running vibes. When they are winning its the shimmy and the posing and the prancing and when they face any adversity he's throwing tantrums and hurling his mouthpiece at fans and not fighting to the end. Draymond the same way at this point. He's getting kicked out of playoff games or getting blown out by 50 and prancing around like its all a joke.

I can't imagine too many not Warriors fans, or theorists like Doc actually enjoy this team much at all. Tons of admiration for their talent, particularly Draymond, but they are absolutely insufferable.

I have zero issues with them chirping and dancing when they win, but when you get your ass kicked, you then have to deal with it much better than they do. It's like that whole organization thinks its their birthright to win every single game.

Warriors always reminded me of FC Barcelona, and I didn't know why until now.

[Dr Positivity]

Doncic vs prime Harden is an example of why you can't just go with regular season stats. Harden still easily has the better peak regular season numbers but Doncic is just a more talented player than he ever was.

[jalengreen]

My issue with Steph is the front running vibes. When they are winning its the shimmy and the posing and the prancing and when they face any adversity he's throwing tantrums and hurling his mouthpiece at fans and not fighting to the end. Draymond the same way at this point. He's getting kicked out of playoff games or getting blown out by 50 and prancing around like its all a joke.

I can't imagine too many not Warriors fans, or theorists like Doc actually enjoy this team much at all. Tons of admiration for their talent, particularly Draymond, but they are absolutely insufferable.

I have zero issues with them chirping and dancing when they win, but when you get your ass kicked, you then have to deal with it much better than they do. It's like that whole organization thinks its their birthright to win every single game.

definitely agree with steph but i don't think draymond's a front runner. draymond goes on with his antics win or lose IMO, he's chirping to fans and talkin **** up 30 or down 30. he was lowkey hilarious in g4

he also made sure to go find lebron and congratulate him after losing g7 in 2016. IIRC steph and klay did not and just left. (i never blame athletes for not immediately going to congratulate their opponents after losing a championship BTW so no hate to steph/klay for that, i do think it's commendable when they do it though)

always thought of steph and klay as front runners but i'm not sure dray deserves the label

with that said he has given fans other reasons to not like him.

[falcolombardi]

draymond is a talk **** but take it in the chin kind of guy

i dislike his dirty play at tines or how he is allowed to scream at refs face as much as he wants but i think he is a great competitor

[Outside]

Just to add an observation regarding Steph and his mouthpiece, being married to someone with ADHD and having two ADHD kids, Steph shows numerous signs to me of being ADHD. My wife has to fiddle with something with her hands all the time. With one son, it's a family joke about having an earthquake when we're stopped in the car at a light because his leg bouncing shakes the whole car (his leg never stops bouncing). I haven't noticed it as much recently, but Steph used to chew his fingernails all the time when he sat on the bench. The mouthpiece chewing is just another thing in that vein. Too much ADHD energy that has to get out somehow.

Again, I don't know for a fact that he has ADHD, but that's what it looks like to me. I get how the mouthpiece stuff bugs some people, but because I've been surrounded by that type of thing, I can easily ignore it.

[falcolombardi]

honestly why should we care about players stress tics?

[Outside]

Am I a hater for being still extremely skeptical about Kidd as a head coach?

I don't see how you could be labeled a hater considering how his first two tenures ended. I freely admit I hated the hire and thought it was made because Dirk and Cuban like the guy because he helped them win a championship. Didn't feel like their reason for choosing him was coming from an ideal spot.

But he's benefited that the team was clearly ready for a new voice and were over Rick Carlisle. And he's certainly gotten them to buy in defensively. But man is the offensive system underwhelming. Would love to see the team hire a guy to help them expand what they do because I'm not convinced Kidd has the chops for that.

The other thing that encourages me was how open he was about why he failed in his previous spots. That he was too arrogant and didn't listen and he really praises Vogel highly for helping him to see that it needs to be collaborative.

But skepticism should certainly still be there. It is for me too.

I'm glad to see Kidd grow as a coach instead of digging in his heels and acting like he knows more than everybody else in the room. He's obviously a very smart guy. I've liked his demeanor throughout these playoffs. I hope he figures out that adding an offensive specialist to his staff would help tremendously.

[parsnips33]

I find the more people hate the Warriors the more I like them

The "play with joy" media fawning they got in 2015 just read as so corny to me, or treating Steph like this relatable humble superstar

They are a-holes who win a lot of basketball games and I love them for it

[parsnips33]

I know 3-1 lead in 2016 conjures up memories of a very specific series, but I think it's a bit strange to call them frontrunners after that OKC series. About as come from behind as you can get

[itsxtray]

I just want Bucks and Grizzlies to win these games.

i agree, is hard not to root for the underdog grizzlies, and bucks are just a very likeable small market team

btw what was it you disliked about warriors?

Probably combination of being tired of Warriors winning and my lack of appeal to Steph/Klay style of basketball. I appreciate greatness, they are amazing but that's not the type of basketball I like watching. I am also probably in minority here, but for some unnamed reasons Curry always frustrated me with his on-court behaviour. The last one is completely irrational, so let's not go into that.

I like watching Green playing defense and Wiggins became likeable, but that's not enough for me. Especially with Green antics...

Interesting, I'm not a Warriors fan but to me there's nothing more exciting in all of basketball than Steph or Klay getting hot and rattling off 3 or 4 3's in a row. Also after every big game like that people would always talk about how steph curry is the most exciting player in the league, the warriors local numbers seem to back that up to. Still, i get that it's not your thing. What do you find exciting?

[falcolombardi]

I find the more people hate the Warriors the more I like them

The "play with joy" media fawning they got in 2015 just read as so corny to me, or treating Steph like this relatable humble superstar

They are a-holes who win a lot of basketball games and I love them for it

i respect this honesty a lot more than the dudes who go "nooo, you cannot like this player mpre than curry, domt you see how humble he is!!"

which yeah gets pretty corny, as annoying as as*hole whitewashing gets in sports ("noo dude, mike was just punching kerr to give him character amd make him a winner!")

the "soo humble!" obsession is just as weird lol

[falcolombardi]

i agree, is hard not to root for the underdog grizzlies, and bucks are just a very likeable small market team

btw what was it you disliked about warriors?

Probably combination of being tired of Warriors winning and my lack of appeal to Steph/Klay style of basketball. I appreciate greatness, they are amazing but that's not the type of basketball I like watching. I am also probably in minority here, but for some unnamed reasons Curry always frustrated me with his on-court behaviour. The last one is completely irrational, so let's not go into that.

I like watching Green playing defense and Wiggins became likeable, but that's not enough for me. Especially with Green antics...

Interesting, I'm not a Warriors fan but to me there's nothing more exciting in all of basketball than Steph or Klay getting hot and rattling off 3 or 4 3's in a row. Also after every big game like that people would always talk about how steph curry is the most exciting player in the league, the warriors local numbers seem to back that up to. Still, i get that it's not your thing. What do you find exciting?

warriors are cool, their off ball movement is nice to watch

but many of us prefer 3 point shooting to be a second option after a inside out play rather than seemingly the main focus

i prefer my rim attacking stars which is probably why i becane a russ and lebron fan in the first place

[yoyoboy]

I have zero issues with them chirping and dancing when they win, but when you get your ass kicked, you then have to deal with it much better than they do. It's like that whole organization thinks its their birthright to win every single game.

This is a good way to put it and it's why they rub me the wrong way as well, aside from my obvious bias as a Cavs fan. I like Steph and Draymond off the court and I appreciate their abilities and entertainment factors as well, but I find their attitudes on the court to be pretty insufferable at times. It's definitely a sense of entitlement and condescension that seems to extend all throughout the organization, as well. I'd even say the fanbase. Maybe that's an unfair generalization, but I find that the Bay Area and California in general tend to have at the very least a disproportionate amount of unbearable people, which then carries over to the fans of their sports teams, lol.

The mouthpiece stuff doesn't bother me personally.

[Doctor MJ]

So I'll say:

I'm rooting for the Warriors to win by playing truly beautiful basketball, which is how I feel about them when they are in their groove.

And what I'll say right now:

I think the Warriors are going to beat the Grizz...the Warriors aren't doing that thing, and I'm not sure if they can do it against tough playoff competition at this point.

And I'll add:

For a lot of folks - Kevin Durant included - that feels like a cop out because they believe that the beautiful play of the Warriors just doesn't work against great competition. This is one reason why I'd love to see the Warriors do it to show people they can do it definitively.

I'm shaped here in part based on the '13-14 Spurs who to me were not just a champion, but a very strong champion. I wouldn't pick those Spurs over, say, the '16-17 Warriors, but I don't think the issue there is style of play but talent differential.

One of the things that I think frustrates all of us about the Warriors:

It's not the fact that they are turnover-prone - which is natural when you pass a lot - but the fact that they make so many careless passes. While that Spurs team still managed to be slightly above average in TO% despite the passing, the Warriors are often very poor by this metric and have gotten by by having shooters that are vastly more dangerous than anyone the Spurs had. If only they had developed the former along with the latter...

So anyway, I'd say that's a bias for me. With the other two series in play right now (Phx-Dal & Bos-Mil), I have pros and cons on each side, and whoever Miami faces in the next round, it'll be similar. There isn't any team left that screams to me "It's good for basketball if this team doesn't win" the way I'd feel about the Lakers, Nets, or 76ers.

I totally get were you are coming from with hoping a Warriors win would convince fans that a motion based offense with top players spending a lot of times off ball works but I'm skeptical. The reason is the other example you cited in the thread: Spurs.

I point this out all the time but San Antonio from 2013-17 turned in a 7.8 SRS, won 1 title and lost in G7 in the others. They were also never outscored in a single post-season series during that run. It didn't do anything to persuade skeptics that motion based offenses in which shots are allocated to the open player rather than a designatated scorer works.

I generally dislike the media bias critique but this is one area were it matters. If you watch basketball coverage you are told ad nauseam that "teams need closers" or "give the best player your ball and get out of the way." That tilted coverage does influence people's thinking.

And I don't think it will go away. Basketball is a weird sport. It is a team sport but a significant % of fans primarily following individual superstars rather than teams. The NBA knows this. The media companies that cover it know it. And the coverage gives the fans what they want

Wow. Great insights sp6r. Seriously well said.

A couple points though:

1. I'm not asking for Jordan-ball to go away, but I'd like for there to be more to the NBA than 32 teams of Jordan-ball. When we see success come in different ways, it fosters this and facilitates innovation.

2. I think things would have shifted in the NBA more had either SAS or GSW motion offense become an indisputable dynasty.

[MyUniBroDavis]

My issue with Steph is the front running vibes. When they are winning its the shimmy and the posing and the prancing and when they face any adversity he's throwing tantrums and hurling his mouthpiece at fans and not fighting to the end. Draymond the same way at this point. He's getting kicked out of playoff games or getting blown out by 50 and prancing around like its all a joke.

I can't imagine too many not Warriors fans, or theorists like Doc actually enjoy this team much at all. Tons of admiration for their talent, particularly Draymond, but they are absolutely insufferable.

I have zero issues with them chirping and dancing when they win, but when you get your ass kicked, you then have to deal with it much better than they do. It's like that whole organization thinks its their birthright to win every single game.

In my experience I feel most of my friends/people I know that aren’t mad about the Warriors run have the Warriors as their 2nd or 3rd team, but I think everyone just loves steph lol

There are ALOT of people that don’t like the Warriors for that run though (I’d be one of them too if I didn’t like steph a lot)

[Texas Chuck]

I know 3-1 lead in 2016 conjures up memories of a very specific series, but I think it's a bit strange to call them frontrunners after that OKC series. About as come from behind as you can get

A lot has changed for them since that series that might have them be a different group of people though right? My perception of Steph and the rest was certainly different 6 years ago which feels correct.

[falcolombardi]

So I'll say:

I'm rooting for the Warriors to win by playing truly beautiful basketball, which is how I feel about them when they are in their groove.

And what I'll say right now:

I think the Warriors are going to beat the Grizz...the Warriors aren't doing that thing, and I'm not sure if they can do it against tough playoff competition at this point.

And I'll add:

For a lot of folks - Kevin Durant included - that feels like a cop out because they believe that the beautiful play of the Warriors just doesn't work against great competition. This is one reason why I'd love to see the Warriors do it to show people they can do it definitively.

I'm shaped here in part based on the '13-14 Spurs who to me were not just a champion, but a very strong champion. I wouldn't pick those Spurs over, say, the '16-17 Warriors, but I don't think the issue there is style of play but talent differential.

One of the things that I think frustrates all of us about the Warriors:

It's not the fact that they are turnover-prone - which is natural when you pass a lot - but the fact that they make so many careless passes. While that Spurs team still managed to be slightly above average in TO% despite the passing, the Warriors are often very poor by this metric and have gotten by by having shooters that are vastly more dangerous than anyone the Spurs had. If only they had developed the former along with the latter...

So anyway, I'd say that's a bias for me. With the other two series in play right now (Phx-Dal & Bos-Mil), I have pros and cons on each side, and whoever Miami faces in the next round, it'll be similar. There isn't any team left that screams to me "It's good for basketball if this team doesn't win" the way I'd feel about the Lakers, Nets, or 76ers.

I totally get were you are coming from with hoping a Warriors win would convince fans that a motion based offense with top players spending a lot of times off ball works but I'm skeptical. The reason is the other example you cited in the thread: Spurs.

I point this out all the time but San Antonio from 2013-17 turned in a 7.8 SRS, won 1 title and lost in G7 in the others. They were also never outscored in a single post-season series during that run. It didn't do anything to persuade skeptics that motion based offenses in which shots are allocated to the open player rather than a designatated scorer works.

I generally dislike the media bias critique but this is one area were it matters. If you watch basketball coverage you are told ad nauseam that "teams need closers" or "give the best player your ball and get out of the way." That tilted coverage does influence people's thinking.

And I don't think it will go away. Basketball is a weird sport. It is a team sport but a significant % of fans primarily following individual superstars rather than teams. The NBA knows this. The media companies that cover it know it. And the coverage gives the fans what they want

Wow. Great insights sp6r. Seriously well said.

A couple points though:

1. I'm not asking for Jordan-ball to go away, but I'd like for there to be more to the NBA than 32 teams of Jordan-ball. When we see success come in different ways, it fosters this and facilitates innovation.

2. I think things would have shifted in the NBA more had either SAS or GSW motion offense become an indisputable dynasty.

the salary caps makes true mega stars like lebron, jordan or other "the man" players so underpaid relative to value that they become the best way to build a contender

the nba makes it so bradley beal takes as much of your cap as lebron james, and nicolas batum 80% of what stephen curry makes

under that market inefficiency, building around a superstar will be always easier that having 5 great starters and a deep bench as the 2014 spurs or 2004 pistons

the warriors you use as an example had peak ~ curry making 12 millions a year and then added durant thanks to a cap spike which let them have the money to also pay overqualified role players like iguodala or bogut

is all a money game at the end of the day

[itsxtray]

I find the more people hate the Warriors the more I like them

The "play with joy" media fawning they got in 2015 just read as so corny to me, or treating Steph like this relatable humble superstar

They are a-holes who win a lot of basketball games and I love them for it

Remnids me of this lol:

Watch on YouTube

[falcolombardi]

I know 3-1 lead in 2016 conjures up memories of a very specific series, but I think it's a bit strange to call them frontrunners after that OKC series. About as come from behind as you can get

A lot has changed for them since that series that might have them be a different group of people though right? My perception of Steph and the rest was certainly different 6 years ago which feels correct.

every new star goes through the same process

1- they are beloved, charismstic, humble but also cocky as a veteran (which is good!) somehow and the greatest thingh to ever happen tl basketball

2- they stsrt winning and beating people favorite teams or alternatively they fail to win, which annoys people or makes them a mocking target to question them

3- they are talked so much about that those who are not fans start rooting against them

4- comparision to nostalgia glasses views of older stsrs happen, he is a disgrace compared to the actual greats (aka, the guys who you watched play when you were younger) and a example of the disgraceful softness of baby boomers, gen x, millenials, zoomeers ad infinitum

4- when they become older they start being compared positively to new stars which are cocky, act like they have won somethingh (you cannot enjoy basketball or dare to celebrate wins until you win a ring, so are the rules) but not them, the older veteran who knows to win and is not a cocky kid

5- they retire and go on tnt to lament how much worse basketball and its stars are than they were

[sp6r=underrated]

I totally get were you are coming from with hoping a Warriors win would convince fans that a motion based offense with top players spending a lot of times off ball works but I'm skeptical. The reason is the other example you cited in the thread: Spurs.

I point this out all the time but San Antonio from 2013-17 turned in a 7.8 SRS, won 1 title and lost in G7 in the others. They were also never outscored in a single post-season series during that run. It didn't do anything to persuade skeptics that motion based offenses in which shots are allocated to the open player rather than a designatated scorer works.

I generally dislike the media bias critique but this is one area were it matters. If you watch basketball coverage you are told ad nauseam that "teams need closers" or "give the best player your ball and get out of the way." That tilted coverage does influence people's thinking.

And I don't think it will go away. Basketball is a weird sport. It is a team sport but a significant % of fans primarily following individual superstars rather than teams. The NBA knows this. The media companies that cover it know it. And the coverage gives the fans what they want

Wow. Great insights sp6r. Seriously well said.

A couple points though:

1. I'm not asking for Jordan-ball to go away, but I'd like for there to be more to the NBA than 32 teams of Jordan-ball. When we see success come in different ways, it fosters this and facilitates innovation.

2. I think things would have shifted in the NBA more had either SAS or GSW motion offense become an indisputable dynasty.

the salary caps makes true mega stars like lebron, jordan or other "the man" players so underpaid relative to value that they become the best way to build a contender

the nba makes it so bradley beal takes as much of your cap as lebron james, and nicolas batum 80% of what stephen curry makes

under that market inefficiency, building around a superstar will be always easier that having 5 great starters and a deep bench as the 2014 spurs or 2004 pistons

the warriors you use as an example had peak ~ curry making 12 millions a year and then added durant thanks to a cap spike which let them have the money to also pay overqualified role players like iguodala or bogut

is all a money game at the end of the day

I love your point about max salaries and the way it makes superstars overly important. They're grossly underpaid. Take Lebron and Wade. Both are HOFers. But everyone Wade included, would concede Lebron was a better player. You could not pay Lebron more. If there were no max salaries we would see granular salary differences. Obviously it wouldn't strictly be merit based. Some players will get paid more for marketability reasons as example. But it'd be a lot better than current system.

The rookie scale is also harmful