2021-22 NBA Season Discussion

[falcolombardi]

I find the more people hate the Warriors the more I like them

The "play with joy" media fawning they got in 2015 just read as so corny to me, or treating Steph like this relatable humble superstar

They are a-holes who win a lot of basketball games and I love them for it

Remnids me of this lol:

Watch on YouTube

i thought of this instead lol

Watch on YouTube

[Doctor MJ]

Probably combination of being tired of Warriors winning and my lack of appeal to Steph/Klay style of basketball. I appreciate greatness, they are amazing but that's not the type of basketball I like watching. I am also probably in minority here, but for some unnamed reasons Curry always frustrated me with his on-court behaviour. The last one is completely irrational, so let's not go into that.

I like watching Green playing defense and Wiggins became likeable, but that's not enough for me. Especially with Green antics...

Interesting, I'm not a Warriors fan but to me there's nothing more exciting in all of basketball than Steph or Klay getting hot and rattling off 3 or 4 3's in a row. Also after every big game like that people would always talk about how steph curry is the most exciting player in the league, the warriors local numbers seem to back that up to. Still, i get that it's not your thing. What do you find exciting?

warriors are cool, their off ball movement is nice to watch

but many of us prefer 3 point shooting to be a second option after a inside out play rather than seemingly the main focus

i prefer my rim attacking stars which is probably why i becane a russ and lebron fan in the first place

What's so interesting about that observation is that traditionally motion offense was used to get the ball closer to the rim through zone defenses. They killed the zone, they greatly injured motion offense, and this has been said to have not been a coincidence. That they wanted to more individualize the game to let the stars shine.

So the fact that motion offense has now become associated with a perimeter assault is something of a significant reversal.

And what it also means is that I shouldn't act like there isn't an appeal to individually-oriented play, but I like team sports to be team sports. I love all sorts of individual sports - tennis, gymnastics, sumo wrestling, whatever - but if you're going to have multiple people on a field of play together where play is continuous, I'd like to see everyone appear as if they are actually in action toward a collective end. The whole "the best thing you can do is just stand there out of the way" thing strikes me as sub-optimal.

Doesn't mean I can't enjoy play that fits within this halo, but I don't want people to forget that you can play this game very differently.

[falcolombardi]

Interesting, I'm not a Warriors fan but to me there's nothing more exciting in all of basketball than Steph or Klay getting hot and rattling off 3 or 4 3's in a row. Also after every big game like that people would always talk about how steph curry is the most exciting player in the league, the warriors local numbers seem to back that up to. Still, i get that it's not your thing. What do you find exciting?

warriors are cool, their off ball movement is nice to watch

but many of us prefer 3 point shooting to be a second option after a inside out play rather than seemingly the main focus

i prefer my rim attacking stars which is probably why i becane a russ and lebron fan in the first place

What's so interesting about that observation is that traditionally motion offense was used to get the ball closer to the rim through zone defenses. They killed the zone, they greatly injured motion offense, and this has been said to have not been a coincidence. That they wanted to more individualize the game to let the stars shine.

So the fact that motion offense has now become associated with a perimeter assault is something of a significant reversal.

And what it also means is that I shouldn't act like there isn't an appeal to individually-oriented play, but I like team sports to be team sports. I love all sorts of individual sports - tennis, gymnastics, sumo wrestling, whatever - but if you're going to have multiple people on a field of play together where play is continuous, I'd like to see everyone appear as if they are actually in action toward a collective end. The whole "the best thing you can do is just stand there out of the way" thing strikes me as sub-optimal.

Doesn't mean I can't enjoy play that fits within this halo, but I don't want people to forget that you can play this game very differently.

i think is a mistake to associate rim attacking as a intrinsically individualistic basketball approach any more than 3 point shooting is

i like the warriors when they use ball movement and motion offense to create cuts or drives to the rim, i like then less when it leads to 3 point spamming

and it was the same for me with the morey rockets, i liked them when they did actions i enjoyed, like drives to the rim, pick and roll lobs to capela, even isos that were not just spamming 3's against centers

but i liked then less when harden would just start settling into stepback 3's

is about cool basketball vs boring basketball for me, not team bssketball vs indovidualistic basketball

[Peregrine01]

There is definitely a certain level of arrogance that permeates the Warriors from management all the way to the players. They looked like the favorites to win it all the first two games of the playoffs but the way they loafed around ever since has me thinking different. They seem to think they can just turn it on anytime they want when they’re no where near that type of team anymore. It wouldn’t surprise me at all if they lost this series.

[Doctor MJ]

There is definitely a certain level of arrogance that permeates the Warriors from management all the way to the players. They looked like the favorites to win it all the first two games of the playoffs but the way they loafed around ever since has me thinking different. They seem to think they can just turn it on anytime they want when they’re no where near that type of team anymore. It wouldn’t surprise me at all if they lost this series.

Interesting perspective. Whether you're right about how they think about things, I don't think they can just flip the switch, and they should know that from previous experience. They've always been a streaky team, and that streakiness caught up with them in 2016 on a scale should sear permanently into the brain.

[itsxtray]

Probably combination of being tired of Warriors winning and my lack of appeal to Steph/Klay style of basketball. I appreciate greatness, they are amazing but that's not the type of basketball I like watching. I am also probably in minority here, but for some unnamed reasons Curry always frustrated me with his on-court behaviour. The last one is completely irrational, so let's not go into that.

I like watching Green playing defense and Wiggins became likeable, but that's not enough for me. Especially with Green antics...

Interesting, I'm not a Warriors fan but to me there's nothing more exciting in all of basketball than Steph or Klay getting hot and rattling off 3 or 4 3's in a row. Also after every big game like that people would always talk about how steph curry is the most exciting player in the league, the warriors local numbers seem to back that up to. Still, i get that it's not your thing. What do you find exciting?

warriors are cool, their off ball movement is nice to watch

but many of us prefer 3 point shooting to be a second option after a inside out play rather than seemingly the main focus

i prefer my rim attacking stars which is probably why i becane a russ and lebron fan in the first place

I feel you, i came up in SoCal near the end of the lakers 3peat and truly became immersed in the mid to late 2000's watching the Lakers resurgence after Shaq left, so I was a Kobe guy for a looooong time. One of my favorite memories is watching Kobe hit that game winner vs the suns in 06 i was running around my house like crazy and woke my grandmother up lol, just remembering it is bringing a smile to my face.

Whats funny is i actually stopped following the Nba for a couple years, i just lost all interest even tho i loved the game and played it in hs, the warriors 73-9 season and Kobe retiring are what brought me back in. Funnily enough I watched no games from that season and didn't know about the record until i saw the warriors had broken it on my youtube feed, that made me watch the playoffs which made me interested in the game again.

That's also how i found out about this place, i was looking for some Steph analysis cause i remembered him from davidson and i watched his playoff series vs the nuggets and spurs in 13 but apparently he was the best player now? Which kinda shocked me and i stumbled across the 15-16 steph thread and read thru the whole thing and it was awesome to see the reactions to what he'd done that season. Anyway this is wayyy too long and i wen't on a huge tangent but i think thats part of the reason why i love watching Steph, he helped pull me back in after a couple years of me not following the game.

[MyUniBroDavis]

So I'll say:

I'm rooting for the Warriors to win by playing truly beautiful basketball, which is how I feel about them when they are in their groove.

And what I'll say right now:

I think the Warriors are going to beat the Grizz...the Warriors aren't doing that thing, and I'm not sure if they can do it against tough playoff competition at this point.

And I'll add:

For a lot of folks - Kevin Durant included - that feels like a cop out because they believe that the beautiful play of the Warriors just doesn't work against great competition. This is one reason why I'd love to see the Warriors do it to show people they can do it definitively.

I'm shaped here in part based on the '13-14 Spurs who to me were not just a champion, but a very strong champion. I wouldn't pick those Spurs over, say, the '16-17 Warriors, but I don't think the issue there is style of play but talent differential.

One of the things that I think frustrates all of us about the Warriors:

It's not the fact that they are turnover-prone - which is natural when you pass a lot - but the fact that they make so many careless passes. While that Spurs team still managed to be slightly above average in TO% despite the passing, the Warriors are often very poor by this metric and have gotten by by having shooters that are vastly more dangerous than anyone the Spurs had. If only they had developed the former along with the latter...

So anyway, I'd say that's a bias for me. With the other two series in play right now (Phx-Dal & Bos-Mil), I have pros and cons on each side, and whoever Miami faces in the next round, it'll be similar. There isn't any team left that screams to me "It's good for basketball if this team doesn't win" the way I'd feel about the Lakers, Nets, or 76ers.

I totally get were you are coming from with hoping a Warriors win would convince fans that a motion based offense with top players spending a lot of times off ball works but I'm skeptical. The reason is the other example you cited in the thread: Spurs.

I point this out all the time but San Antonio from 2013-17 turned in a 7.8 SRS, won 1 title and lost in G7 in the others. They were also never outscored in a single post-season series during that run. It didn't do anything to persuade skeptics that motion based offenses in which shots are allocated to the open player rather than a designatated scorer works.

I generally dislike the media bias critique but this is one area were it matters. If you watch basketball coverage you are told ad nauseam that "teams need closers" or "give the best player your ball and get out of the way." That tilted coverage does influence people's thinking.

And I don't think it will go away. Basketball is a weird sport. It is a team sport but a significant % of fans primarily following individual superstars rather than teams. The NBA knows this. The media companies that cover it know it. And the coverage gives the fans what they want

Wow. Great insights sp6r. Seriously well said.

A couple points though:

1. I'm not asking for Jordan-ball to go away, but I'd like for there to be more to the NBA than 32 teams of Jordan-ball. When we see success come in different ways, it fosters this and facilitates innovation.

2. I think things would have shifted in the NBA more had either SAS or GSW motion offense become an indisputable dynasty.

In terms of heliocentric offenses

I’m not going to pretend that I watch their games and understand their offense, but I think

When it comes to success in general, I think it’s a combination of the facts that

The elite superstar impact players team s are built around are generally the best value for contract players in the league (max guys essentially). Not necessarily in terms of opportunity cost but because a guy like Jokic or giannis for example would be paid more than the current max if teams could do that.

When you invest heavily into one player like that, who is your best value for contract guy, it makes sense to build the offense around them

Max Players generally would want the same too, for an offense to be built them

I don’t think it’s suboptimal depending on the roster, but I think the prerequisites for the roster make it kind of difficult

Also with how fast the nba changes a lot of coaches do get “left in the dust” which is esp apparent nowadays

So along with the type of good decision makers u need for a motion offense, the type of players people go for (max players) make it so most teams don’t have a roster that would be optimized with that kind of offense

Coaching wise im not sure how many coaches would even have a great motion offense, most of them focus on staying at the forefront of heliocentric offenses or pick and roll offenses and knowing how to counter different things.

The bucks r prolly the most obvious example, they didn’t necessarily learn to counter but switched from a 5 out offense where people would build a wall stunting the drive, to a 4 out 1 in dunker offense so the spacing made stunting on drives a bit less effective, and they’d occasional get the non big in the dunker spot so the help would be someone giannis wouldn’t be effected by (the alignment went from top of the key, the wings, the corners, to the wings, the corners, and someone on the opposite dunker spot)

Or you have the nuggets who are pretty much the gold standard when it comes to knowing how to deal with post help, in terms of counters depending on where the defenses are coming from

I haven’t checked the doc recently but they amount some teams aren’t good at countering in this regard is already pretty suprising. The Lakers did it in the playoffs more so in isolation but the Lakers are horrendously bad at countering in this regard, which is partially why their offense hasn’t been effective with ad and bron outside the bubble

While motion based offenses are gonna be harder to counter because of more actions, countering those counters is also much more complicated

Essentially I feel the coaches that could run a strong elite motion offense arent necessarily as readily available as one might think and team construction doesn’t favor it.

And most of the coaches that could do so are probably on teams with max players (more successful teams)

And even in those teams with those qualities it’s not really a garuntee it’s more effective than a more simple pick and roll based offense for example

I think there’s a place for it and it’s fun to watch, but I feel factors work against it being so prevelant. Currys unique in his role and he’s the best ever in hat kind of situation but even with him you could argue they over complicate things at times

[jalengreen]

havent seen giannis this aggressive out of the gate this series. celtics have no answer

[falcolombardi]

i dont know if celtics should be worried they are 100% from 3 and losing

or bucks worried giannis is in pace for 100 points and they are barely up

[jalengreen]

i dont know if celtics should be worried they are 100% from 3 and losing

or bucks worried giannis is in pace for 100 points and they are barely up

i think i'm more concerned for the celtics

grant williams in foul trouble isnt ideal and rob williams still out too ofc, they're gonna need another good performance from theis or they'll be asking for a lot from horford

[falcolombardi]

marcus smart redemption game

[Peregrine01]

There is definitely a certain level of arrogance that permeates the Warriors from management all the way to the players. They looked like the favorites to win it all the first two games of the playoffs but the way they loafed around ever since has me thinking different. They seem to think they can just turn it on anytime they want when they’re no where near that type of team anymore. It wouldn’t surprise me at all if they lost this series.

Interesting perspective. Whether you're right about how they think about things, I don't think they can just flip the switch, and they should know that from previous experience. They've always been a streaky team, and that streakiness caught up with them in 2016 on a scale should sear permanently into the brain.

I used to be a big fan of the Warriors and still am a fan. But I've gotten disenchanted with how sloppy they play and it's opened my eyes to some of the other things that have long been criticisms about them and their key guys. The way Curry and Klay just jack up ill-advised threes when they've gone 0-5 up until then is a microcosm for the team's "flip the switch anytime I want" arrogance. They just play way too dumb and carelessly way too much. They used to be able to get away with that but not anymore.

[falcolombardi]

smart becoming 2016 curry and giannis becoming shaquille olajuwon with dirk free throw shooting

[jalengreen]

i've actively rooted against the warriors in every playoff series they've played since 2015 so i certainly respect the energy here but i'm not sure i understand some of these criticisms

steph's the greatest shooter ever, i don't care how cold he is at a point in a game, he's still the greatest shooter ever and i'll be worried any time he shoots

2019 r2 game 6 a great example. IIRC he had 0 points in the first half and then 33 points in the second half to steal the game without KD against the harden/cp3 rockets.

does he sometimes make poor decisions? yeah. good example would be in 2016 finals g7 when he had love on him out on the perimeter but adamantly insisted on taking a three despite the easy blow by opportunity. but it's not like that's exclusive to him

[falcolombardi]

boston ultra hot shooting coming down to human percentages

they are gonna miss it against bucks interior defense

[jalengreen]

genuinely impressive how awful grayson allen has been

[AussieBuck]

genuinely impressive how awful grayson allen has been

He wasn't a good defender at all before that but late in the season he hurt his hip and has been terrible since. Was ok when he was hitting but he's looked scared all series. The double hit is Bud's love of George hill who has also been injured and is absolutely cooked. Neither guy has any business being in a game against the Celtics but here we are.

[Peregrine01]

What's interesting is that the Celts have looked like the better team for maybe 2/3 of the series yet they're down 3-2.

[falcolombardi]

i dont see how bucks wins against this boston shooting

not with their sloppy offense

[jalengreen]

i dont know if celtics should be worried they are 100% from 3 and losing

or bucks worried giannis is in pace for 100 points and they are barely up

i think i'm more concerned for the celtics

grant williams in foul trouble isnt ideal and rob williams still out too ofc, they're gonna need another good performance from theis or they'll be asking for a lot from horford

this hasnt aged well so far

giannis just picked up his 4th foul so far too, that could get interesting