'17-'18 POY discussion

[dhsilv2]

I mean, where exactly do you think Draymond was going with that left arm extending forward?

It was a non-basketball play above the shoulders against a vulnerable player, somewhere between a Flagrant 1 and a Flagrant 2. It's a joke that TT's actions merited immediate rejection + 25k fine but to my knowledge the refs didn't even review Draymond's more dangerous act (I believe he was given a technical for arguing, then yelled something that looked an awful lot like F*** P***)

- Airborne
- Vulnerable
- Non-basketball play
- Arguably unnatural act. Lebron had the ball so he couldn't even prevent it.

Flagrant 1: push (lol jeez play on Lebron was way worse)
http://videorulebook.nba.com/archive/flagrant-foul-penalty-1-non-basketball-push-to-opponents-chest/

Flagrant 2: Unnatural Act (hit to the groin). In this case the eye.
http://videorulebook.nba.com/archive/unnatural-act-flagrant-foul-penalty-2-unnatural-kick-to-opponents-groin/

Flagrant 2: Hard airborne contact to the player's head
http://videorulebook.nba.com/archive/flagrant-foul-penalty-2-hard-airborne-contact-to-opponents-head/

I don't get what you're talking about here at all. You're comparing a basketball player who was allowed to be on the court to a guy who'd been thrown off the court.

We had a guy make contact with a closed hand in the face of another player (not during the play of basketball). That has been an instant suspension no matter what under any circumstances.

The dray play is nothing remotely like it. I can't even discuss it unless you have examples of a similar play CONSISTENTLY being used to suspend a player for the following game. Or in simpler terms Dray was allowed on the court. TT had been told to get the hell off the court and instead he goes, confronts a player, throws the ball at him, follows through and hits the guy in his face with a closed fist. If you think these are comparable, you're being crazy man.

No he didn't, he went to ask the ref why he was ejected and was interrupted by classless Draymond taunting him, which should have been a technical on Draymond.

Oh give me a break, there were 3 seconds left. Just walk off the court. Nothing anyone has or will ever say justifies what he did.

[dhsilv2]

A) TT shouldn't have been tossed for the first foul.

B) The move to Dray's face after being tossed should be a suspension.

This is dead on! I truly believe TT walks off the court, the NBA removes the flagrant foul call and everyone agrees with it. Instead he acted like a child on the play ground and I'm really shocked to see the NBA let that go as they did.

[INKtastic]

I don't get what you're talking about here at all. You're comparing a basketball player who was allowed to be on the court to a guy who'd been thrown off the court.

We had a guy make contact with a closed hand in the face of another player (not during the play of basketball). That has been an instant suspension no matter what under any circumstances.

The dray play is nothing remotely like it. I can't even discuss it unless you have examples of a similar play CONSISTENTLY being used to suspend a player for the following game. Or in simpler terms Dray was allowed on the court. TT had been told to get the hell off the court and instead he goes, confronts a player, throws the ball at him, follows through and hits the guy in his face with a closed fist. If you think these are comparable, you're being crazy man.

No he didn't, he went to ask the ref why he was ejected and was interrupted by classless Draymond taunting him, which should have been a technical on Draymond.

Oh give me a break, there were 3 seconds left. Just walk off the court. Nothing anyone has or will ever say justifies what he did.

But you're find with justifying Draymond's classless taunting? For most players, taunting is a technical.

[dhsilv2]

No he didn't, he went to ask the ref why he was ejected and was interrupted by classless Draymond taunting him, which should have been a technical on Draymond.

Oh give me a break, there were 3 seconds left. Just walk off the court. Nothing anyone has or will ever say justifies what he did.

But you're find with justifying Draymond's classless taunting? For most players, taunting is a technical.

I can't hear what was said so unless you've got audio how do you know it was classless taunting? Also what is the difference in trash talk and taunting? I've never understood that distinction because the NBA for decades has hyped up how it has some of the best trash talkers in the world, that's part of the lore of guys like Jordan and Bird.

But taunting is suddenly some awful thing?

Anyway, I'm discussing what TT did which has been a 1 game suspension automatically for a LONG time. I don't understand why we're trying to compare players here. I really should stop engaging when people are using "what about" in a discussion as these never lead anywhere productive.

Or in short, I'm not going to discuss Green in a response to what TT did.

[INKtastic]

Oh give me a break, there were 3 seconds left. Just walk off the court. Nothing anyone has or will ever say justifies what he did.

But you're find with justifying Draymond's classless taunting? For most players, taunting is a technical.

I can't hear what was said so unless you've got audio how do you know it was classless taunting? Also what is the difference in trash talk and taunting? I've never understood that distinction because the NBA for decades has hyped up how it has some of the best trash talkers in the world, that's part of the lore of guys like Jordan and Bird.

But taunting is suddenly some awful thing?

Anyway, I'm discussing what TT did which has been a 1 game suspension automatically for a LONG time. I don't understand why we're trying to compare players here. I really should stop engaging when people are using "what about" in a discussion as these never lead anywhere productive.

Or in short, I'm not going to discuss Green in a response to what TT did.

I've seen multiple players called for a taunting technical in these playoffs for doing less than Draymond did in game 1. Last year Richard Jefferson was called for a taunting technical for winking at KD.

[dhsilv2]

But you're find with justifying Draymond's classless taunting? For most players, taunting is a technical.

I can't hear what was said so unless you've got audio how do you know it was classless taunting? Also what is the difference in trash talk and taunting? I've never understood that distinction because the NBA for decades has hyped up how it has some of the best trash talkers in the world, that's part of the lore of guys like Jordan and Bird.

But taunting is suddenly some awful thing?

Anyway, I'm discussing what TT did which has been a 1 game suspension automatically for a LONG time. I don't understand why we're trying to compare players here. I really should stop engaging when people are using "what about" in a discussion as these never lead anywhere productive.

Or in short, I'm not going to discuss Green in a response to what TT did.

I've seen multiple players called for a taunting technical in these playoffs for doing less than Draymond did in game 1. Last year Richard Jefferson was called for a taunting technical for winking at KD.

Thank you for making my point. Now lets focus on the punch and TT.

[Mystical Apples]

That was an open hand on lebron's face. I don't see how you can compare the two. Lets added TT was already ejected, he shouldn't have still been on the court.

Do you have a comparable example of when a player was given a technical let alone suspended for a game for a similar open hand palm to the face act?

I mean, where exactly do you think Draymond was going with that left arm extending forward?

It was a non-basketball play above the shoulders against a vulnerable player, somewhere between a Flagrant 1 and a Flagrant 2. It's a joke that TT's actions merited immediate rejection + 25k fine but to my knowledge the refs didn't even review Draymond's more dangerous act (I believe he was given a technical for arguing, then yelled something that looked an awful lot like F*** P***)

- Airborne
- Vulnerable
- Non-basketball play
- Arguably unnatural act. Lebron had the ball so he couldn't even prevent it.

Flagrant 1: push (lol jeez play on Lebron was way worse)
http://videorulebook.nba.com/archive/flagrant-foul-penalty-1-non-basketball-push-to-opponents-chest/

Flagrant 2: Unnatural Act (hit to the groin). In this case the eye.
http://videorulebook.nba.com/archive/unnatural-act-flagrant-foul-penalty-2-unnatural-kick-to-opponents-groin/

Flagrant 2: Hard airborne contact to the player's head
http://videorulebook.nba.com/archive/flagrant-foul-penalty-2-hard-airborne-contact-to-opponents-head/

I don't get what you're talking about here at all. You're comparing a basketball player who was allowed to be on the court to a guy who'd been thrown off the court.

We had a guy make contact with a closed hand in the face of another player (not during the play of basketball). That has been an instant suspension no matter what under any circumstances.

The dray play is nothing remotely like it. I can't even discuss it unless you have examples of a similar play CONSISTENTLY being used to suspend a player for the following game. Or in simpler terms Dray was allowed on the court. TT had been told to get the hell off the court and instead he goes, confronts a player, throws the ball at him, follows through and hits the guy in his face with a closed fist. If you think these are comparable, you're being crazy man.

Not sure if you're addressing another poster or strawmanning here. At no time did I state Draymond should be suspended. Therefore I'm not gonna waste time finding examples of players CONSISTENTLY getting suspended for similar actions to satisfy whatever it is you believe I'm asserting.

It was a dangerous play. I was surprised it wasn't reviewed or assessed at least a Flagrant 1 and getting more scrutinee after the game. So I responded with Flagrant 1 and Flagrant 2 examples from my perspective.

That's it. If you're not looking for perspective, then don't ask.

[Mystical Apples]

That was an open hand on lebron's face. I don't see how you can compare the two. Lets added TT was already ejected, he shouldn't have still been on the court.

Do you have a comparable example of when a player was given a technical let alone suspended for a game for a similar open hand palm to the face act?

I mean, where exactly do you think Draymond was going with that left arm extending forward?

It was a non-basketball play above the shoulders against a vulnerable player, somewhere between a Flagrant 1 and a Flagrant 2. It's a joke that TT's actions merited immediate rejection + 25k fine but to my knowledge the refs didn't even review Draymond's more dangerous act (I believe he was given a technical for arguing, then yelled something that looked an awful lot like F*** P***)

- Airborne
- Vulnerable
- Non-basketball play
- Arguably unnatural act. Lebron had the ball so he couldn't even prevent it.

Flagrant 1: push (lol jeez play on Lebron was way worse)
http://videorulebook.nba.com/archive/flagrant-foul-penalty-1-non-basketball-push-to-opponents-chest/

Flagrant 2: Unnatural Act (hit to the groin). In this case the eye.
http://videorulebook.nba.com/archive/unnatural-act-flagrant-foul-penalty-2-unnatural-kick-to-opponents-groin/

Flagrant 2: Hard airborne contact to the player's head
http://videorulebook.nba.com/archive/flagrant-foul-penalty-2-hard-airborne-contact-to-opponents-head/

This is a classic example of the bias on this forum.

Draymond went straight up. Lebron initiated the contact. When someone is attacking you in the face with their elbow it's a natural reaction to put an arm forward to try to slow them down. Do you seriously expect Green to allow Lebron to take his head off there without even trying to defend himself?

-Since Lebron initiated the contact whether they were airborne is irrelevant.
-Draymond looked a lot more vulnerable on that play. Green was the one being barreled into.
-Jumping straight up to contest a drive is unquestionably a basketball play.
-You want to talk about an unnatural act? How about Lebron elbowing Green in the face?
-"Hard airborne contact to the player's head". You mean like how Lebron initiated the play and elbowed Green in the face?

But fine. Let's agree to disagree even though we are theoretically looking at the same play. I would settle for Lebron and Green being suspended for game 2. But only Green being suspended for that play would be an obscene joke.

I know I can't possibly ever win here because I am outnumbered by too much. Human psychology forbids it. But it is obvious that the deafening silence regarding the indefensible lack of a Thompson suspension is a strong data point in my favor. This forum actually has become the Lebron homer club.

Not a fan of either team. I was knocked out cold by a similar play, suffered weeks of concussion symptoms, and almost lost an eye.

TBH it's sad I even have to mention this but here we are. Carry on.

[dhsilv2]

I mean, where exactly do you think Draymond was going with that left arm extending forward?

It was a non-basketball play above the shoulders against a vulnerable player, somewhere between a Flagrant 1 and a Flagrant 2. It's a joke that TT's actions merited immediate rejection + 25k fine but to my knowledge the refs didn't even review Draymond's more dangerous act (I believe he was given a technical for arguing, then yelled something that looked an awful lot like F*** P***)

- Airborne
- Vulnerable
- Non-basketball play
- Arguably unnatural act. Lebron had the ball so he couldn't even prevent it.

Flagrant 1: push (lol jeez play on Lebron was way worse)
http://videorulebook.nba.com/archive/flagrant-foul-penalty-1-non-basketball-push-to-opponents-chest/

Flagrant 2: Unnatural Act (hit to the groin). In this case the eye.
http://videorulebook.nba.com/archive/unnatural-act-flagrant-foul-penalty-2-unnatural-kick-to-opponents-groin/

Flagrant 2: Hard airborne contact to the player's head
http://videorulebook.nba.com/archive/flagrant-foul-penalty-2-hard-airborne-contact-to-opponents-head/

I don't get what you're talking about here at all. You're comparing a basketball player who was allowed to be on the court to a guy who'd been thrown off the court.

We had a guy make contact with a closed hand in the face of another player (not during the play of basketball). That has been an instant suspension no matter what under any circumstances.

The dray play is nothing remotely like it. I can't even discuss it unless you have examples of a similar play CONSISTENTLY being used to suspend a player for the following game. Or in simpler terms Dray was allowed on the court. TT had been told to get the hell off the court and instead he goes, confronts a player, throws the ball at him, follows through and hits the guy in his face with a closed fist. If you think these are comparable, you're being crazy man.

Not sure if you're addressing another poster or strawmanning here. At no time did I state Draymond should be suspended. Therefore I'm not gonna waste time finding examples of players CONSISTENTLY getting suspended for similar actions to satisfy whatever it is you believe I'm asserting.

It was a dangerous play. I was surprised it wasn't reviewed or assessed at least a Flagrant 1 and getting more scrutinee after the game. So I responded with Flagrant 1 and Flagrant 2 examples from my perspective.

That's it. If you're not looking for perspective, then don't ask.

I don't understand why you quoted me to bring it up when I was discussing a punch that didn't even happen during the play of the game.

[Mystical Apples]

I don't get what you're talking about here at all. You're comparing a basketball player who was allowed to be on the court to a guy who'd been thrown off the court.

We had a guy make contact with a closed hand in the face of another player (not during the play of basketball). That has been an instant suspension no matter what under any circumstances.

The dray play is nothing remotely like it. I can't even discuss it unless you have examples of a similar play CONSISTENTLY being used to suspend a player for the following game. Or in simpler terms Dray was allowed on the court. TT had been told to get the hell off the court and instead he goes, confronts a player, throws the ball at him, follows through and hits the guy in his face with a closed fist. If you think these are comparable, you're being crazy man.

Not sure if you're addressing another poster or strawmanning here. At no time did I state Draymond should be suspended. Therefore I'm not gonna waste time finding examples of players CONSISTENTLY getting suspended for similar actions to satisfy whatever it is you believe I'm asserting.

It was a dangerous play. I was surprised it wasn't reviewed or assessed at least a Flagrant 1 and getting more scrutinee after the game. So I responded with Flagrant 1 and Flagrant 2 examples from my perspective.

That's it. If you're not looking for perspective, then don't ask.

I don't understand why you quoted me to bring it up when I was discussing a punch that didn't even happen during the play of the game.

Because 2 examples of potential bodily harm in the same game seemed topical and related.

I had no idea it would require research so as to request an audience.

[dhsilv2]

Not sure if you're addressing another poster or strawmanning here. At no time did I state Draymond should be suspended. Therefore I'm not gonna waste time finding examples of players CONSISTENTLY getting suspended for similar actions to satisfy whatever it is you believe I'm asserting.

It was a dangerous play. I was surprised it wasn't reviewed or assessed at least a Flagrant 1 and getting more scrutinee after the game. So I responded with Flagrant 1 and Flagrant 2 examples from my perspective.

That's it. If you're not looking for perspective, then don't ask.

I don't understand why you quoted me to bring it up when I was discussing a punch that didn't even happen during the play of the game.

Because 2 examples of potential bodily harm in the same game seemed topical and related.

I had no idea it would require research so as to request an audience.

I was focused on a player not being suspended for an act that the NBA has strictly enforced for more than a decade. The other is a basketball play which they have not done so with. My point of surprise is that a player made contact with a closed fist and wasn't suspended as that just doesn't happen and hasn't since what the 80's?

[Heej]

Lebron
Harden
AD
Curry
Giannis

I really wanna put Curry above AD, but I really can't shake the fact that AD dominated the Blazers in a pseudo upset. I know logically that it wasn't a real 3-6 matchup due to how congealed that whole morass of team records were for the other 6 in the West, but it's still an awesome accomplishment to me. I feel like his off ball prowess is really 2nd best in the league after Curry and he'll likely end up top 5 all time as an off ball threat after Curry, Bird, Miller, and Allen. His defense really took a leap this season despite Cousins' best efforts to sabotage it. Curry is still clearly the second best player in the league. Him and LeBron are in their own tiers, though somehow LeBron might be in his own tier again after 3 years.

Hard to leave out Oladipo who I thought had one of the best defensive 2 guard seasons for a legit superstar since 09 Wade. The way he's able to cover so much ground is awe inspiring. He's the only guy I've seen with the footspeed to muck up a LeBron drive in the paint and do a textbook choppy feet closeout on Kyle Korver and make him pick up his dribble. That was 2011-13 LeBron or 2015 Kawhi's specialty. Oladipo can basically play 2 people's worth of defense by doing that since he's able to help off the opponent's best shooter.

That being said Giannis was too good end to end. You guys remember when he was basically putting Prime Shaq to shame and shooting like 80% in the restricted area while scoring 32+ PPG to start the season? I know it's easy to forget what happened early on but I don't wanna give in to recency bias. End to end he was clearly better than Oladipo imo, even on defense. I'm also sad I have to leave Lillard off, but Jrue Holiday kinda took his lunch money. Sure he had a tweaked ankle, but we can't make excuses here we can only evaluate the results.

[ardee]

Lebron
Harden
AD
Curry
Giannis

I really wanna put Curry above AD, but I really can't shake the fact that AD dominated the Blazers in a pseudo upset. I know logically that it wasn't a real 3-6 matchup due to how congealed that whole morass of team records were for the other 6 in the West, but it's still an awesome accomplishment to me. I feel like his off ball prowess is really 2nd best in the league after Curry and he'll likely end up top 5 all time as an off ball threat after Curry, Bird, Miller, and Allen. His defense really took a leap this season despite Cousins' best efforts to sabotage it. Curry is still clearly the second best player in the league. Him and LeBron are in their own tiers, though somehow LeBron might be in his own tier again after 3 years.

Hard to leave out Oladipo who I thought had one of the best defensive 2 guard seasons for a legit superstar since 09 Wade. The way he's able to cover so much ground is awe inspiring. He's the only guy I've seen with the footspeed to muck up a LeBron drive in the paint and do a textbook choppy feet closeout on Kyle Korver and make him pick up his dribble. That was 2011-13 LeBron or 2015 Kawhi's specialty. Oladipo can basically play 2 people's worth of defense by doing that since he's able to help off the opponent's best shooter.

That being said Giannis was too good end to end. You guys remember when he was basically putting Prime Shaq to shame and shooting like 80% in the restricted area while scoring 32+ PPG to start the season? I know it's easy to forget what happened early on but I don't wanna give in to recency bias. End to end he was clearly better than Oladipo imo, even on defense. I'm also sad I have to leave Lillard off, but Jrue Holiday kinda took his lunch money. Sure he had a tweaked ankle, but we can't make excuses here we can only evaluate the results.

You'd have to think Curry was WAAAAY better than Giannis if 24 games in the RS AND a whole round in the PS missed can be overcome.

[Texas Chuck]

Curry is way better than Giannis tho. I get we all freak out over his length and some of his highlights and that he does so many things. But Curry is just still the superior player.

[eminence]

Curry is way better than Giannis tho. I get we all freak out over his length and some of his highlights and that he does so many things. But Curry is just still the superior player.

Pretty much. If someone doesn't want to take Curry due to games played I get it. But when available he's still a class above.

[Heej]

Lebron
Harden
AD
Curry
Giannis

I really wanna put Curry above AD, but I really can't shake the fact that AD dominated the Blazers in a pseudo upset. I know logically that it wasn't a real 3-6 matchup due to how congealed that whole morass of team records were for the other 6 in the West, but it's still an awesome accomplishment to me. I feel like his off ball prowess is really 2nd best in the league after Curry and he'll likely end up top 5 all time as an off ball threat after Curry, Bird, Miller, and Allen. His defense really took a leap this season despite Cousins' best efforts to sabotage it. Curry is still clearly the second best player in the league. Him and LeBron are in their own tiers, though somehow LeBron might be in his own tier again after 3 years.

Hard to leave out Oladipo who I thought had one of the best defensive 2 guard seasons for a legit superstar since 09 Wade. The way he's able to cover so much ground is awe inspiring. He's the only guy I've seen with the footspeed to muck up a LeBron drive in the paint and do a textbook choppy feet closeout on Kyle Korver and make him pick up his dribble. That was 2011-13 LeBron or 2015 Kawhi's specialty. Oladipo can basically play 2 people's worth of defense by doing that since he's able to help off the opponent's best shooter.

That being said Giannis was too good end to end. You guys remember when he was basically putting Prime Shaq to shame and shooting like 80% in the restricted area while scoring 32+ PPG to start the season? I know it's easy to forget what happened early on but I don't wanna give in to recency bias. End to end he was clearly better than Oladipo imo, even on defense. I'm also sad I have to leave Lillard off, but Jrue Holiday kinda took his lunch money. Sure he had a tweaked ankle, but we can't make excuses here we can only evaluate the results.

You'd have to think Curry was WAAAAY better than Giannis if 24 games in the RS AND a whole round in the PS missed can be overcome.

He is

[Peregrine01]

Good article on the awkwardness between Kevin Durant and the rest of the Warriors: https://www.actionnetwork.com/nba/article/strange-vibes-kevin-durant-warriors

Considering everything, not surprised that the Warriors have danced around the whole KD-iso thing. It seems like they've actively tried to placate him which has actually ended up hurting the team's performance.

[Doctor MJ]

Curry is way better than Giannis tho. I get we all freak out over his length and some of his highlights and that he does so many things. But Curry is just still the superior player.

I agree, buy I’ll add:

I think it’s key to recognize at the very least that the characteristic shape of Curry’s impact is drastically different from Giannis which makes skill-based comparison very difficult.

Giannis can do a lot Curry cannot. I side with Curry because I think him ability to impact is much more proven, particularly so in contending contexts.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

[Heej]

Good article on the awkwardness between Kevin Durant and the rest of the Warriors: https://www.actionnetwork.com/nba/article/strange-vibes-kevin-durant-warriors

Considering everything, not surprised that the Warriors have danced around the whole KD-iso thing. It seems like they've actively tried to placate him which has actually ended up hurting the team's performance.

Disease of More

[Joey Wheeler]

There's no way Curry is WAY better than Giannis. If he's better at all, it's by a small margin. If Curry was in Milwaukee and Giannis a part of this GSW roster no one would be peddling this 100%-results driven narrative.