2019-20 NBA Season Discussion

[Fadeaway_J]

Is what Siakam is doing sustainable?

Sent from my SM-A505F using RealGM mobile app

He's in the category of Kawhi a few years ago where he seems to recalibrate what is "sustainable" every year. His skill development has been ridiculous.

More than anything else I'm watching his three-point shooting. If he's comfortably bombing away from above the break (even if the percentage itself settles in at something like last season's 36-37%) then the gambit of switching your 5 onto him is no longer viable.

[Dr Spaceman]

I find this whole “load management” discussion incredibly frustrating.

Look, the science is unclear on whether load management prevents incidence of acute injury.

What is absolutely, 100% ****ing clear is that load management helps symptoms of chronic, degenerative conditions. If you ever wanted to see players like Bill Walton, Tracy McGrady, Amar’e Soutdemire, and Brandon Roy have long and productive careers, load management is the solution.

But people are unable to differentiate between the two in their mind. They think that guys sitting out due to arthritis is the same as saying they’re sitting out to avoid ankle sprains.

And of course here I’m mainly talking about Kawhi. I don’t know how you can watch him and not notice he is in pain, sometimes very severe pain, pretty much all the time. He was badly and noticeably limping during the entire last two rounds of the playoffs.

Take all the games off you want to Kawhi. Honestly. Don’t be another McGrady or Walton.

[Fadeaway_J]

I find this whole “load management” discussion incredibly frustrating.

Look, the science is unclear on whether load management prevents incidence of acute injury.

What is absolutely, 100% ****ing clear is that load management helps symptoms of chronic, degenerative conditions. If you ever wanted to see players like Bill Walton, Tracy McGrady, Amar’e Soutdemire, and Brandon Roy have long and productive careers, load management is the solution.

But people are unable to differentiate between the two in their mind. They think that guys sitting out due to arthritis is the same as saying they’re sitting out to avoid ankle sprains.

And of course here I’m mainly talking about Kawhi. I don’t know how you can watch him and not notice he is in pain, sometimes very severe pain, pretty much all the time. He was badly and noticeably limping during the entire last two rounds of the playoffs.

Take all the games off you want to Kawhi. Honestly. Don’t be another McGrady or Walton.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it doesn't appear that the Clippers/Kawhi have put out enough information for people to appreciate why the load management is necessary.

[MisterHibachi]

I find this whole “load management” discussion incredibly frustrating.

Look, the science is unclear on whether load management prevents incidence of acute injury.

What is absolutely, 100% ****ing clear is that load management helps symptoms of chronic, degenerative conditions. If you ever wanted to see players like Bill Walton, Tracy McGrady, Amar’e Soutdemire, and Brandon Roy have long and productive careers, load management is the solution.

But people are unable to differentiate between the two in their mind. They think that guys sitting out due to arthritis is the same as saying they’re sitting out to avoid ankle sprains.

And of course here I’m mainly talking about Kawhi. I don’t know how you can watch him and not notice he is in pain, sometimes very severe pain, pretty much all the time. He was badly and noticeably limping during the entire last two rounds of the playoffs.

Take all the games off you want to Kawhi. Honestly. Don’t be another McGrady or Walton.

I don't care either way, but if I recall correctly, the messaging from both Kawhi and the Clippers before the season was that his load management was over and he was completely healthy. Then we find out they have pre-planned rest days. They should have communicated that better before hand. No one had an issue with his rest days last year, and that's because the Raptors communicated correctly from the beginning.

[liamliam1234]

No one had an issue because no one cares about the Raptors. The complete and utter meltdown was because people were apparently hyping up the Kawhi/Giannis rematch to mythic proportions. Even though it makes more sense for the Clippers to give full effort against a division rival. I have basically abandoned the general board because of their response to it all. Literally four threads of at least eight pages each, all at the same time, with people wailing about heartbroken children and intercontinental travellers and the terrible unfairness of what this means for ESPN/TNT. I had no idea a seemingly random group could be so collectively out of touch with anything meaningful. They missed out on a fun regular season game, so Kawhi is now an unforgivable scumbag who can never be a true all-time great.

And of course the Lakers and Spurs fans were as vehement as possible with their I am sure totally just outrage.

Nauseating all around.

[Dr Spaceman]

I find this whole “load management” discussion incredibly frustrating.

Look, the science is unclear on whether load management prevents incidence of acute injury.

What is absolutely, 100% ****ing clear is that load management helps symptoms of chronic, degenerative conditions. If you ever wanted to see players like Bill Walton, Tracy McGrady, Amar’e Soutdemire, and Brandon Roy have long and productive careers, load management is the solution.

But people are unable to differentiate between the two in their mind. They think that guys sitting out due to arthritis is the same as saying they’re sitting out to avoid ankle sprains.

And of course here I’m mainly talking about Kawhi. I don’t know how you can watch him and not notice he is in pain, sometimes very severe pain, pretty much all the time. He was badly and noticeably limping during the entire last two rounds of the playoffs.

Take all the games off you want to Kawhi. Honestly. Don’t be another McGrady or Walton.

I don't care either way, but if I recall correctly, the messaging from both Kawhi and the Clippers before the season was that his load management was over and he was completely healthy. Then we find out they have pre-planned rest days. They should have communicated that better before hand. No one had an issue with his rest days last year, and that's because the Raptors communicated correctly from the beginning.

Did they actually say he was 100% healthy? Or did they just say he was healthy to play? Because those are two different things.

[Peregrine01]

I find this whole “load management” discussion incredibly frustrating.

Look, the science is unclear on whether load management prevents incidence of acute injury.

What is absolutely, 100% ****ing clear is that load management helps symptoms of chronic, degenerative conditions. If you ever wanted to see players like Bill Walton, Tracy McGrady, Amar’e Soutdemire, and Brandon Roy have long and productive careers, load management is the solution.

But people are unable to differentiate between the two in their mind. They think that guys sitting out due to arthritis is the same as saying they’re sitting out to avoid ankle sprains.

And of course here I’m mainly talking about Kawhi. I don’t know how you can watch him and not notice he is in pain, sometimes very severe pain, pretty much all the time. He was badly and noticeably limping during the entire last two rounds of the playoffs.

Take all the games off you want to Kawhi. Honestly. Don’t be another McGrady or Walton.

What was TMac's degenerative condition? As far as I'm aware he had chronic knee tendonitis which pretty much all ball players dealt with.

[MisterHibachi]

I find this whole “load management” discussion incredibly frustrating.

Look, the science is unclear on whether load management prevents incidence of acute injury.

What is absolutely, 100% ****ing clear is that load management helps symptoms of chronic, degenerative conditions. If you ever wanted to see players like Bill Walton, Tracy McGrady, Amar’e Soutdemire, and Brandon Roy have long and productive careers, load management is the solution.

But people are unable to differentiate between the two in their mind. They think that guys sitting out due to arthritis is the same as saying they’re sitting out to avoid ankle sprains.

And of course here I’m mainly talking about Kawhi. I don’t know how you can watch him and not notice he is in pain, sometimes very severe pain, pretty much all the time. He was badly and noticeably limping during the entire last two rounds of the playoffs.

Take all the games off you want to Kawhi. Honestly. Don’t be another McGrady or Walton.

I don't care either way, but if I recall correctly, the messaging from both Kawhi and the Clippers before the season was that his load management was over and he was completely healthy. Then we find out they have pre-planned rest days. They should have communicated that better before hand. No one had an issue with his rest days last year, and that's because the Raptors communicated correctly from the beginning.

Did they actually say he was 100% healthy? Or did they just say he was healthy to play? Because those are two different things.

https://clipperholics.com/2019/10/18/la-clippers-kawhi-leonard-load-manage/amp/

When asked whether or not he would continue with the same load management plan he operated with last season with the Toronto Raptors, Leonard said the following, per a video shared by the LA Times’ Andrew Greif:

“No. I mean, I was injured last year coming in, so that was the only way I could play the schedule and not really affect the team and the outcomes. So this year will be a lot different.”

Leonard has hinted at his improved health a few times since joining the Clippers, but this is the first time he’s given a definitive answer as to whether or not he’ll be on a load management plan this season.

Reading it again, the quote doesn't necessarily mean he won't take games off, but it still implies load management won't be a a big thing this year. I'm sure everyone read it that way at the time and it's on Kawhi and the Clippers for not communicating that properly.

[Dr Spaceman]

I find this whole “load management” discussion incredibly frustrating.

Look, the science is unclear on whether load management prevents incidence of acute injury.

What is absolutely, 100% ****ing clear is that load management helps symptoms of chronic, degenerative conditions. If you ever wanted to see players like Bill Walton, Tracy McGrady, Amar’e Soutdemire, and Brandon Roy have long and productive careers, load management is the solution.

But people are unable to differentiate between the two in their mind. They think that guys sitting out due to arthritis is the same as saying they’re sitting out to avoid ankle sprains.

And of course here I’m mainly talking about Kawhi. I don’t know how you can watch him and not notice he is in pain, sometimes very severe pain, pretty much all the time. He was badly and noticeably limping during the entire last two rounds of the playoffs.

Take all the games off you want to Kawhi. Honestly. Don’t be another McGrady or Walton.

What was TMac's degenerative condition? As far as I'm aware he had chronic knee tendonitis which pretty much all ball players dealt with.

He had scoliosis (misaligned spine) which caused him back spasms for years and I believe a degenerative disk condition. He also had arthritis in his knee which was treated with micro fracture. He was a zombie by the end of his Rockets tenure

[Dr Spaceman]

I don't care either way, but if I recall correctly, the messaging from both Kawhi and the Clippers before the season was that his load management was over and he was completely healthy. Then we find out they have pre-planned rest days. They should have communicated that better before hand. No one had an issue with his rest days last year, and that's because the Raptors communicated correctly from the beginning.

Did they actually say he was 100% healthy? Or did they just say he was healthy to play? Because those are two different things.

https://clipperholics.com/2019/10/18/la-clippers-kawhi-leonard-load-manage/amp/

When asked whether or not he would continue with the same load management plan he operated with last season with the Toronto Raptors, Leonard said the following, per a video shared by the LA Times’ Andrew Greif:

“No. I mean, I was injured last year coming in, so that was the only way I could play the schedule and not really affect the team and the outcomes. So this year will be a lot different.”

Leonard has hinted at his improved health a few times since joining the Clippers, but this is the first time he’s given a definitive answer as to whether or not he’ll be on a load management plan this season.

Reading it again, the quote doesn't necessarily mean he won't take games off, but it still implies load management won't be a a big thing this year. I'm sure everyone read it that way at the time and it's on Kawhi and the Clippers for not communicating that properly.

This is fair.

I think booth he and the Clippers stand to lose a lot financially if the actual details of his injury become public though. Remember Amar’e’s contract with the Knicks was famously uninsured. Kawhi could also potentially lose out on lots of endorsements if it’s believed his playing career won’t last long.

I think the key wording in that quote though is “injured”. He may genuinely not be injured in the traditional sense, which I think is where the backlash comes from. He can not be “injured” and still absolutely need the rest as treatment for a chronic condition.

But you’re right, it is a failure in communication. I think the Raptors screwed up too by calling it load management instead of, I don’t know, chronic condition management. Load management sounds like he’s sitting on a beach relaxing.

[Dr Spaceman]

I find this whole “load management” discussion incredibly frustrating.

Look, the science is unclear on whether load management prevents incidence of acute injury.

What is absolutely, 100% ****ing clear is that load management helps symptoms of chronic, degenerative conditions. If you ever wanted to see players like Bill Walton, Tracy McGrady, Amar’e Soutdemire, and Brandon Roy have long and productive careers, load management is the solution.

But people are unable to differentiate between the two in their mind. They think that guys sitting out due to arthritis is the same as saying they’re sitting out to avoid ankle sprains.

And of course here I’m mainly talking about Kawhi. I don’t know how you can watch him and not notice he is in pain, sometimes very severe pain, pretty much all the time. He was badly and noticeably limping during the entire last two rounds of the playoffs.

Take all the games off you want to Kawhi. Honestly. Don’t be another McGrady or Walton.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it doesn't appear that the Clippers/Kawhi have put out enough information for people to appreciate why the load management is necessary.

They haven’t, but are they obligated to? Kawhi has been suffering from this injury since 2012 per some reports. I think people need to understand that what happened to Kawhi in the playoffs in 2019 was not a random injury, it is a condition he has to deal with for the rest of his life. If he doesn’t manage his load properly he is going to start limping again, and possibly not be able to play. It’s not a question of “if” but “when”.

Regardless, there are huge financial stakes involved in this so im not going to blame the Clippers or Kawhi for not going into detail and rather just saying “I need rest.” He may be out of the league at 30 due to this or he may have a login and successful career on a minutes limit and playing 55-60 games a year. We don’t know.

If the Clippers come out and say “Kawhi is healthy and we’re resting him” that is a mistake and that’s why Doc was fine. They have an obligation to not make false statements. But they have no obligation to reveal anything about Kawhi’s condition except what the league mandates on injury reports.

[Fadeaway_J]

I find this whole “load management” discussion incredibly frustrating.

Look, the science is unclear on whether load management prevents incidence of acute injury.

What is absolutely, 100% ****ing clear is that load management helps symptoms of chronic, degenerative conditions. If you ever wanted to see players like Bill Walton, Tracy McGrady, Amar’e Soutdemire, and Brandon Roy have long and productive careers, load management is the solution.

But people are unable to differentiate between the two in their mind. They think that guys sitting out due to arthritis is the same as saying they’re sitting out to avoid ankle sprains.

And of course here I’m mainly talking about Kawhi. I don’t know how you can watch him and not notice he is in pain, sometimes very severe pain, pretty much all the time. He was badly and noticeably limping during the entire last two rounds of the playoffs.

Take all the games off you want to Kawhi. Honestly. Don’t be another McGrady or Walton.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it doesn't appear that the Clippers/Kawhi have put out enough information for people to appreciate why the load management is necessary.

They haven’t, but are they obligated to? Kawhi has been suffering from this injury since 2012 per some reports. I think people need to understand that what happened to Kawhi in the playoffs in 2019 was not a random injury, it is a condition he has to deal with for the rest of his life. If he doesn’t manage his load properly he is going to start limping again, and possibly not be able to play. It’s not a question of “if” but “when”.

Regardless, there are huge financial stakes involved in this so im not going to blame the Clippers or Kawhi for not going into detail and rather just saying “I need rest.” He may be out of the league at 30 due to this or he may have a login and successful career on a minutes limit and playing 55-60 games a year. We don’t know.

If the Clippers come out and say “Kawhi is healthy and we’re resting him” that is a mistake and that’s why Doc was fine. They have an obligation to not make false statements. But they have no obligation to reveal anything about Kawhi’s condition except what the league mandates on injury reports.

I mean... They aren't "obligated" to do anything, but if they don't then this is the predictable result. Especially when the nature of the condition was so opaque going back to when Kawhi was still a Spur. I've always assumed the resting was done for legitimate injury reasons, but that's not down to any concrete information that Kawhi or his teams have provided.

[Peregrine01]

I find this whole “load management” discussion incredibly frustrating.

Look, the science is unclear on whether load management prevents incidence of acute injury.

What is absolutely, 100% ****ing clear is that load management helps symptoms of chronic, degenerative conditions. If you ever wanted to see players like Bill Walton, Tracy McGrady, Amar’e Soutdemire, and Brandon Roy have long and productive careers, load management is the solution.

But people are unable to differentiate between the two in their mind. They think that guys sitting out due to arthritis is the same as saying they’re sitting out to avoid ankle sprains.

And of course here I’m mainly talking about Kawhi. I don’t know how you can watch him and not notice he is in pain, sometimes very severe pain, pretty much all the time. He was badly and noticeably limping during the entire last two rounds of the playoffs.

Take all the games off you want to Kawhi. Honestly. Don’t be another McGrady or Walton.

What was TMac's degenerative condition? As far as I'm aware he had chronic knee tendonitis which pretty much all ball players dealt with.

He had scoliosis (misaligned spine) which caused him back spasms for years and I believe a degenerative disk condition. He also had arthritis in his knee which was treated with micro fracture. He was a zombie by the end of his Rockets tenure

I feel like all players who play long enough had degenerative conditions by the time their careers ended. Hell, Nash and Kobe, the two modern exemplars of preparation and conditioning, just physically couldn’t go on anymore in their last few seasons. Nash had a degenerative condition in his back even in his prime and Kobe was basically playing with no cartilage in his right knee by 2011. It seems to me just a matter of how early you get there.

Kawhi seems to be trading some mild criticism now for long-term longevity. He and his team seem highly intelligent.

[Dr Spaceman]

What was TMac's degenerative condition? As far as I'm aware he had chronic knee tendonitis which pretty much all ball players dealt with.

He had scoliosis (misaligned spine) which caused him back spasms for years and I believe a degenerative disk condition. He also had arthritis in his knee which was treated with micro fracture. He was a zombie by the end of his Rockets tenure

I feel like all players who play long enough had degenerative conditions by the time their careers ended. Hell, Nash and Kobe, the two modern exemplars of preparation and conditioning, just physically couldn’t go on anymore in their last few seasons. Nash had a degenerative condition in his back even in his prime and Kobe was basically playing with no cartilage in his right knee by 2011. It seems to me just a matter of how early you get there.

Kawhi seems to be trading some mild criticism now for long-term longevity. He and his team seem highly intelligent.

I wouldn’t say that. We see Barkley and Shaq every day on TV and they seem perfectly healthy and mobile. Dirk, Duncan, Garnett, David Robinson all have made plenty of appearances and don’t seem very hindered. Not to say that these guys don’t have problems related to playing basketball but it doesn’t seem like they are dealing with super serious conditions like Nash is.

[Dr Spaceman]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it doesn't appear that the Clippers/Kawhi have put out enough information for people to appreciate why the load management is necessary.

They haven’t, but are they obligated to? Kawhi has been suffering from this injury since 2012 per some reports. I think people need to understand that what happened to Kawhi in the playoffs in 2019 was not a random injury, it is a condition he has to deal with for the rest of his life. If he doesn’t manage his load properly he is going to start limping again, and possibly not be able to play. It’s not a question of “if” but “when”.

Regardless, there are huge financial stakes involved in this so im not going to blame the Clippers or Kawhi for not going into detail and rather just saying “I need rest.” He may be out of the league at 30 due to this or he may have a login and successful career on a minutes limit and playing 55-60 games a year. We don’t know.

If the Clippers come out and say “Kawhi is healthy and we’re resting him” that is a mistake and that’s why Doc was fine. They have an obligation to not make false statements. But they have no obligation to reveal anything about Kawhi’s condition except what the league mandates on injury reports.

I mean... They aren't "obligated" to do anything, but if they don't then this is the predictable result. Especially when the nature of the condition was so opaque going back to when Kawhi was still a Spur. I've always assumed the resting was done for legitimate injury reasons, but that's not down to any concrete information that Kawhi or his teams have provided.

He missed an entire season due to this condition and was visibly affected by it as recently as games 3-6 of the ECF and the entire Finals. How often does he need to remind people he has a bad knee?

[Peregrine01]

He had scoliosis (misaligned spine) which caused him back spasms for years and I believe a degenerative disk condition. He also had arthritis in his knee which was treated with micro fracture. He was a zombie by the end of his Rockets tenure

I feel like all players who play long enough had degenerative conditions by the time their careers ended. Hell, Nash and Kobe, the two modern exemplars of preparation and conditioning, just physically couldn’t go on anymore in their last few seasons. Nash had a degenerative condition in his back even in his prime and Kobe was basically playing with no cartilage in his right knee by 2011. It seems to me just a matter of how early you get there.

Kawhi seems to be trading some mild criticism now for long-term longevity. He and his team seem highly intelligent.

I wouldn’t say that. We see Barkley and Shaq every day on TV and they seem perfectly healthy and mobile. Dirk, Duncan, Garnett, David Robinson all have made plenty of appearances and don’t seem very hindered. Not to say that these guys don’t have problems related to playing basketball but it doesn’t seem like they are dealing with super serious conditions like Nash is.

Not saying that they're crippled, they just can't play day in/day out in the NBA anymore. Jordan at 50 years old used to scrimmage some with his team and more than hold his own but his problem was that it would take weeks for him to recover. By the way, Nash has been fine ever since he retired - he said that his nerve issues basically disappeared once he stopped playing.

I just don't think the human body is physically capable of playing an NBA schedule for very long.

[Fadeaway_J]

They haven’t, but are they obligated to? Kawhi has been suffering from this injury since 2012 per some reports. I think people need to understand that what happened to Kawhi in the playoffs in 2019 was not a random injury, it is a condition he has to deal with for the rest of his life. If he doesn’t manage his load properly he is going to start limping again, and possibly not be able to play. It’s not a question of “if” but “when”.

Regardless, there are huge financial stakes involved in this so im not going to blame the Clippers or Kawhi for not going into detail and rather just saying “I need rest.” He may be out of the league at 30 due to this or he may have a login and successful career on a minutes limit and playing 55-60 games a year. We don’t know.

If the Clippers come out and say “Kawhi is healthy and we’re resting him” that is a mistake and that’s why Doc was fine. They have an obligation to not make false statements. But they have no obligation to reveal anything about Kawhi’s condition except what the league mandates on injury reports.

I mean... They aren't "obligated" to do anything, but if they don't then this is the predictable result. Especially when the nature of the condition was so opaque going back to when Kawhi was still a Spur. I've always assumed the resting was done for legitimate injury reasons, but that's not down to any concrete information that Kawhi or his teams have provided.

He missed an entire season due to this condition and was visibly affected by it as recently as games 3-6 of the ECF and the entire Finals. How often does he need to remind people he has a bad knee?

Kawhi himself is the one who put it out there before the season that "this year will be a lot different" in terms of load management. Even now Doc is telling people that Kawhi "feels great".

[Dr Spaceman]

I feel like all players who play long enough had degenerative conditions by the time their careers ended. Hell, Nash and Kobe, the two modern exemplars of preparation and conditioning, just physically couldn’t go on anymore in their last few seasons. Nash had a degenerative condition in his back even in his prime and Kobe was basically playing with no cartilage in his right knee by 2011. It seems to me just a matter of how early you get there.

Kawhi seems to be trading some mild criticism now for long-term longevity. He and his team seem highly intelligent.

I wouldn’t say that. We see Barkley and Shaq every day on TV and they seem perfectly healthy and mobile. Dirk, Duncan, Garnett, David Robinson all have made plenty of appearances and don’t seem very hindered. Not to say that these guys don’t have problems related to playing basketball but it doesn’t seem like they are dealing with super serious conditions like Nash is.

Not saying that they're crippled, they just can't play day in/day out in the NBA anymore. Jordan at 50 years old used to scrimmage some with his team and more than hold his own but his problem was that it would take weeks for him to recover. By the way, Nash has been fine ever since he retired - he said that his nerve issues basically disappeared once he stopped playing.

I just don't think the human body is physically capable of playing an NBA schedule for very long.

But you are equating very different things.

McGrady had osteoarthritis at 28. That is an old person condition. It’s the equivalent of an NFL player developing Alzheimer’s (which does seem to happen unfortunately). It’s not equivalent to Kobe developing some cartilage degeneration (which according to his trainer is the extent of the problem) which is a fairly normal thing for professional athletes.

If you believe Kawhi and his doctors he is much more on the McGrady side of the issue than the Kobe side. It’s not about preventing the normal wear that NBA players get, it’s about managing a condition that threatens to end his playing days right now.

[Dr Spaceman]

Towns vs. Jokic! (And a timeslot I can watch and still get a reasonable amount of sleep!)

[Dr Spaceman]

Defense double teams Karl Towns on the catch- Towns passes out and the 4 perimeter guys all stare at each other and pass the ball around hoping someone else will shoot..

Every single Minnesota possession this season.