People who don't have Jordan as GOAT: What metric(s) would make you change your mind?

[Stalwart]

But how do you know you he had weaker opposition?

By his opposition performing worse against a worse league.

How was the league worse?

Of course the league wasn't worse. These guys just say stuff.

[prolific passer]

By his opposition performing worse against a worse league.

How was the league worse?

By having less talent and worse schematic (and institutional) approaches to the sport.

These are not tricky concepts.

But you said Jordan's era had more decent teams which means more parity? Wouldn't that make for better competition overall for the league then what Lebron had?

[AEnigma]

By his opposition performing worse against a worse league.

How was the league worse?

Of course the league wasn't worse. These guys just say stuff.

So the fact that more is invested into player health, more is invested into development, more is invested into overseas talent, more is invested into analytical models of the game… no effect, league basically unchanged from the 1990s.

Always a riot how thick Jordan stans need to be about this point.

[Homer38]

But how do you know you he had weaker opposition?

By his opposition performing worse against a worse league.

How was the league worse?

Outside of Shaq and Tim Duncan at the end,the 1990s had not many young talent like now.Karl Malone won 2 MVP at 33 and 35 years old.Since 2000,every MVP outside of Steve Nash have been under 30 years old

[AEnigma]

How was the league worse?

By having less talent and worse schematic (and institutional) approaches to the sport.

These are not tricky concepts.

But you said Jordan's era had more decent teams which means more parity? Wouldn't that make for better competition overall for the league then what Lebron had?

No, I said he faced more decent teams in his conference, in the context of playoff opposition. That is fundamentally distinct from league quality, which is why I pointed out the 2008 Celtics and 2007/14 Spurs and 2015-18 Warriors were better relative to their respective leagues without even a base level analysis of what that means if we did try to quantify league improvement as it pertains to “real” team quality relative to predecessors. I think the 2011 Mavericks, 2012 Thunder, and 2013 Spurs were all better than Jordan’s top opposition 1988-90 and 1996-98, but there I cannot as easily just point to SRS to evidence that concept, so I did not do it.

[prolific passer]

By his opposition performing worse against a worse league.

How was the league worse?

Outside of Shaq and Tim Duncan at the end,the 1990s had not many young talent like now.Karl Malone won 2 MVP at 33 and 35 years old.Since 2000,every MVP outside of Steve Nash have been under 30 years old

Is it wrong with players winning mvps in their 30s?

[AEnigma]

How was the league worse?

Outside of Shaq and Tim Duncan at the end,the 1990s had not many young talent like now.Karl Malone won 2 MVP at 33 and 35 years old.Since 2000,every MVP outside of Steve Nash have been under 30 years old

Is it wrong with players winning mvps in their 30s?

How many years would you say Karl Malone would be a top two player from say 2009 to now.

[Homer38]

How was the league worse?

Outside of Shaq and Tim Duncan at the end,the 1990s had not many young talent like now.Karl Malone won 2 MVP at 33 and 35 years old.Since 2000,every MVP outside of Steve Nash have been under 30 years old

Is it wrong with players winning mvps in their 30s?

This is not my point.The point,this is the young talent and also the international talent is crazy good right now

[prolific passer]

Outside of Shaq and Tim Duncan at the end,the 1990s had not many young talent like now.Karl Malone won 2 MVP at 33 and 35 years old.Since 2000,every MVP outside of Steve Nash have been under 30 years old

Is it wrong with players winning mvps in their 30s?

How many years would you say Karl Malone would be a top two player from say 2009 to now.

Don't know. Nobody will ever know.

[AEnigma]

Okay cool I guess we will also never know whether Jordan could even make the modern league.

Why are you on this forum if that is your approach.

[prolific passer]

Okay cool I guess we will also never know whether Jordan could even make the modern league.

Why are you on this forum if that is your approach.

Just like we will never know how Lebron would do in Jordan's era.

[AEnigma]

Do we know how good Jordan was? What if he had actually been bad. How do we know?????

What are you gaining from being deliberately obtuse.

[LukaTheGOAT]

So yeah. It's like I said. Chris Bosh had to completely 'reinvent' and 'morph' his game to fit in next to Lebron. He didn't have to do it just once but over and over again. Some nights he'd be asked to score and other nights he'd just be setting a bunch of screens. A guy who was capable of carrying a playoff level offense was never given a consistent role in Lebron's offense. He was asked to play in different areas of the floor than where he truly excels at.

He was asked to play a role which made sense based on the other talent on the roster. Why do you make this sound like a profound thing? It was alarmingly obvious that both Lebron and Wade were better-suited to carrying the offense than Bosh, particularly come the playoffs.

I mean, it's not like Harper (a career 19 ppg at the time) joined the Bulls, focussed mainly on D and averaged 7.5 ppg alongside Jordan and Pippen.

Right. And in mind my, whose to say that Lebron was stiff in adapting his game. Lebron certainly had more aggression as a scorer when Wade or Kyrie was out.

LeBron in the playoffs with Wade off the court from 2012-14:

▫️ 36.5 PTS/75 on 65.2 TS%
▫️ 7.7 REB/75 and 7.8 AST/75
▫️ Led a +18.1 NRTG outside of garbage time
(stats opponent and inflation adjusted)

And if you want a bigger sample size that has the RS:

12-'14 Lebron without Wade on the floor:

34.4 IA PTS/75 (4th Ever)
+9.5 rTS%
7.2 IA AST/75
39.5% from 3
67.7 Points Generated (2nd Ever)

(3700 Minutes Played Sample)


LeBron adjusted scoring w/o kyrie (16-18) playoffs:

•33.8 PTS on +8.6 rTS%

These teams were well served with Wade and Kyrie being there, but that's the point. Pretty much almost all players who heavily create their own shot sacrifice some scoring volume for the good of the team in the long-run.

Lebron's scoring numbers look much prettier here than they do normally when he didn't have to defer as much.

[falcolombardi]

He was asked to play a role which made sense based on the other talent on the roster. Why do you make this sound like a profound thing? It was alarmingly obvious that both Lebron and Wade were better-suited to carrying the offense than Bosh, particularly come the playoffs.

I mean, it's not like Harper (a career 19 ppg at the time) joined the Bulls, focussed mainly on D and averaged 7.5 ppg alongside Jordan and Pippen.

Right. And in mind my, whose to say that Lebron was stiff in adapting his game. Lebron certainly had more aggression as a scorer when Wade or Kyrie was out.

LeBron in the playoffs with Wade off the court from 2012-14:

▫️ 36.5 PTS/75 on 65.2 TS%
▫️ 7.7 REB/75 and 7.8 AST/75
▫️ Led a +18.1 NRTG outside of garbage time
(stats opponent and inflation adjusted)

And if you want a bigger sample size that has the RS:

12-'14 Lebron without Wade on the floor:

34.4 IA PTS/75 (4th Ever)
+9.5 rTS%
7.2 IA AST/75
39.5% from 3
67.7 Points Generated (2nd Ever)

(3700 Minutes Played Sample)


LeBron adjusted scoring w/o kyrie (16-18) playoffs:

•33.8 PTS on +8.6 rTS%

These teams were well served with Wade and Kyrie being there, but that's the point. Pretty much almost all players who heavily create their own shot sacrifice some scoring volume for the good of the team in the long-run.

Lebron's scoring numbers look much prettier here than they do normally when he didn't have to defer as much.

One could argue jordan game which had a heavy dose of off ball curls for jumpers was more "portable" alongside other offensive talent

But the issue is that the argument is still only theorical cause we never got to see jordan having to adapt to play with high volume isolationists and ball handlers (like wade and irving)

Jordan never played with other high volume scorers so of course he never "diminished" their games by making them take less shots per game

[tone wone]

I mean, it's not like Harper (a career 19 ppg at the time) joined the Bulls, focussed mainly on D and averaged 7.5 ppg alongside Jordan and Pippen.

Right. And in mind my, whose to say that Lebron was stiff in adapting his game. Lebron certainly had more aggression as a scorer when Wade or Kyrie was out.

LeBron in the playoffs with Wade off the court from 2012-14:

▫️ 36.5 PTS/75 on 65.2 TS%
▫️ 7.7 REB/75 and 7.8 AST/75
▫️ Led a +18.1 NRTG outside of garbage time
(stats opponent and inflation adjusted)

And if you want a bigger sample size that has the RS:

12-'14 Lebron without Wade on the floor:

34.4 IA PTS/75 (4th Ever)
+9.5 rTS%
7.2 IA AST/75
39.5% from 3
67.7 Points Generated (2nd Ever)

(3700 Minutes Played Sample)


LeBron adjusted scoring w/o kyrie (16-18) playoffs:

•33.8 PTS on +8.6 rTS%

These teams were well served with Wade and Kyrie being there, but that's the point. Pretty much almost all players who heavily create their own shot sacrifice some scoring volume for the good of the team in the long-run.

Lebron's scoring numbers look much prettier here than they do normally when he didn't have to defer as much.

One could argue jordan game which had a heavy dose of off ball curls for jumpers was more "portable" alongside other offensive talent

But the issue is that the argument is still only theorical cause we never got to see jordan having to adapt to play with high volume isolationists and ball handlers (like wade and irving)

Jordan never played with other high volume scorers so of course he never "diminished" their games by making them take less shots per game

One of my favorite stats..

2013 FInals 3pt shooting:
LBJ: 13/34
Bosh: 0/6
Wade: 0/0

Who turned who into a jumpshooter?

This is absolutely amazing. The guy ended up taking the 2nd most 3s of anyone that series (Danny Green took 40). His haters want him to become a 20ppg player so they can scream about how Wade/Kyrie/AD all carried him. But, instead he maintained his usual 27/7/7 so they lie about how everyone bends their games towards him and completely and intentionaly ignore all the shape-shifting Lebron has done the last decade. And they get away with the lies because of how constant his production is. The average fan cant really tell the difference if the end result is still 27/7/7. We scream and scream about how different those titles teams in MIA-CLE-LAL were. How different his roles were on them. How they all required something a little different from him. And instead of being praised for finding the right formula for all these different teams; its actually used against him.

Its truly diabolical how his Miami years have been twisted and honestly worm-holed. No one added more to their game; while also shifted their focus more than he did those years. And here we are, a decade later and its all about how Wade and Bosh (though CB really had to change ) had to sacrifice sooooo much. Like he didn't become a 1. dead-eye spot up threat 2. elite off-ball cutter and 3. like he didnt give up ball-handling duties to freaking Mario Chalmers. Its startling how little Lebron handles the ball and initiates post 2011.

This isnt Durant walking into a well-oiled machine in Golden State. All these teams were complete blank slates. No foundation. No chemistry or history to speak. They all had to learn on the fly from scratch how to play together. All while dealing with insane expectations.

10 Final appearances with 5 different coaches.
4 Titles with 3 different coaches.

For anyone to have the nerve to question his adaptibility is insane.

[tone wone]

He was asked to play a role which made sense based on the other talent on the roster. Why do you make this sound like a profound thing? It was alarmingly obvious that both Lebron and Wade were better-suited to carrying the offense than Bosh, particularly come the playoffs.

Maybe you didn't read what Chris Bosh actually said so let me post it again:

"But, I’d say just getting used to being uncomfortable took… a season and a half to fit into my rolling in. Even after that I had to get used to things changing.”

"It was one of those things where I constantly had to reinvent myself."

He wasn't asked to play a role that best suited the other talent. He was asked to constantly change the role he played. And he was asked to do that in order to specifically suit Lebron James. Instead of playing to and utilizing his strengths as a basketball player he was asked to constantly reinvent himself. He had to morph. He had to be uncomfortable.

Is the goal of basketball to not adapt next to players better at your primary skills, or is it to win a championship.

Why do you think this was unique to Bosh. Lebron had to adapt immensely. Developed a post-game, developed his shooting, developed his off-ball game. Lebron changes his approach on every team for every circumstance, but you are not lamenting how “uncomfortable” that must make him.

Yeah, he had to learn to be good at defence. Everyone should.

Yeah, he had to learn to shoot threes. In the modern league, everyone should. Grant and Pippen would have needed to as well, but they played in the 1990s, not the 2010s.

He had to evolve… because that is how they won two championships. Time and time again you pretend Jordan would never force anyone to adapt. How. How do you think Jordan would have no impact on Wade or Bosh. It is completely disconnected from reality, but of course so far you have shown absolutely zero inclination to engage with that hypothetical. Grant and Pippen grew around Jordan. From the beginning, their entire games were structured around him. How did Jordan work to accommodate them. Learn the triangle? Focus more on fourth quarter scoring? Such sacrifice.

Jordan never needed to adapt to playing next to legitimately high volume scorers. He never needed to adapt to playing with bad defenders. He never needed to adapt to deal with terrible spacing relative to other teams. The only marginally valid point here is that he does take less away from lead creators… because he is an underwhelming lead creator. What other player gets coddled like this and then praised for that coddling.

Is it any wonder why a player like Chris Bosh and Kevin Love eventually lost the ability to produce consistently and reliably on the offensive end? And by "offensive end" Im not referring to raw PPG. Im talking about being able to produce points, rebounds, and finish plays on a consistent and reliable basis independent of Lebron. Like when he goes to the bench or gets leg cramps.

Any real numbers here, or just more invented narrative.

Wade also had to adapt to Lebron in order to make him feel comfortable:

“Taking a step back to ‘Bron, that was the toughest part for me at the time,” Wade told Michael Lee of The Athletic. “Obviously, before my injuries, I was a bad boy. It was my city, my team. (If) we win the Finals that year (in 2011), I’m arguably Finals MVP. I didn’t need to… but we got two out of the next three championships and I’d still do it all over again.”

“I just felt, sitting back, watching the way he played and playing against him for so long, he wasn’t as comfortable as he needed to be,” Wade continued. “And it was too much of him looking over his shoulder or looking at me. He wasn’t just playing. It wasn’t clear mind. He was always thinking about me or looking for me and I just wanted him to be play and allow him to be great.”

The only reason Wade had to take a step back was because Lebron was uncomfortable and flamed out in the 2011 Finals. Why does everyone have to change, adapt, and reinvent themselves when playing next to Lebron?

Because it cost them a title, and then with a declining Wade they won the next two titles. Such a mystery!

Players don't have to do that when they play next to Kobe.

Based on what.

Or Jordan.

Based on what, he played with the same co-star his entire career and only had specialists past that.

Or Wade.

Bruh. Wade was the reason the Heat struggled so badly to fit. Which two of the trio had to learn to shoot? Which two had to learn to fundamentally change their off-ball game? It was not Wade!

If it were not already obvious that you were incapable of any honest assessment on these players, this would make it undeniable. Wade’s “sacrifice” was recognising Lebron needed to lead the team by virtue of being a better player. Imagine if Pippen complained about Jordan taking away his primacy after returning from retirement.

Or Steph.

Again, Steph’s team collapses without him, so by your own standards, he is actually bad for teammates.

Or KD.

Lol everyone in Golden State worked to accommodate him. In Brooklyn, Harden scaled back his scoring to accommodate him — and oh wow, it seems he has since become a worse player, what did Durant do to him.

Again, when it comes to Lebron James its high floor, low ceiling(relatively speaking).

Relative to what. Kobe winning three titles next to Shaq? You sincerely think that would be an issue for Lebron? Do you think Lebron would have a hard time winning with Klay and Durant?

The reason his teams have a low ceiling is because his all star teammates have to adjust, change, and reinvent themselves.

Because that is what usually happens when you pair up random scoring stars. Which, again, Jordan never had to do.

Jordan has a lower floor than Lebron James but he has a much higher ceiling due to his diverse skillset, adaptability, and portability as a player. And its that higher ceiling that brings you championships.

Ceiling to what? Jordan had a top ten player next to him for a decade, a top three coach, an elite supporting cast, a worse league, and consistently worse opposition. Yeah, he won more titles — when Lebron had anything close to the same, so did he.

Why do we continue to praise Jordan for having the perfect set-up? Imagine if the Cavaliers had drafted clones of Manu and Al Horford in 2006, and then hired Popovich — oh, and ensured they never encountered any team with an 8 SRS or higher. That is as a base analogy for the situation in which Jordan won his six.

MJ took 28 shots his 1st game back from baseball. This was not a guy who'd bend his game to fit other scorers. Shoot, shoot and keep shooting was his mentality. Pure fantasy to think he'd align his game perfectly with other volume scorers. Lucky for him, he never had to.

We've seen this before. Where, the best way to get maximum credit for success is to be the 30pt scorer on a defensive driven team. Since your scoring will be so far above everyone else no one could possibly credit anyone else. This is how Pippen becomes just a complimentery star and Grant becomes just a role player.

[Stalwart]

You guys really think Horace Grant was a superstar. Wow.

[Colbinii]

You guys really think Horace Grant was a superstar. Wow.

This is good news. You said yourself your goal here is to learn and now you get to learn about different opinions, backed up by far more evidence than your own about topics people know far more about than yourself.

This thread is an Excellent piece of learning about basketball in an abstract sense beyond the box-score.

[penbeast0]

Question for you Stalwart.

Do you think Chris Bosh was a better player than Horace Grant in terms of best 5 year prime?

[falcolombardi]

You guys really think Horace Grant was a superstar. Wow.

Who in the whole thread said this? Dont make strawmen arguments like these