'17-'18 POY discussion

[Doctor MJ]

So, where I'm at:

Top 2 slots are between LeBron and Harden. I'll be thinking further on this.

Next 3 spots I currently have:

3. Durant - superstar who carried the load for the champs
4. Curry - vital component of champs, brilliant peaks, but injuries and spotty play
5. Davis - great year that feels like a step forward

Honorable Mention:
Paul - great year that further shapes his legacy regardless of just missing out
Giannis - clearly a Top 10 player
Gobert - I think he's a Top 10 players
Oladipo - feels like a clear Top 10 season
Draymond - still worthy of this shout out

The guy I'm sad to leave off her is Horford, but oh well.

[mihail_petkov]

Immediately after the season I would say:
1. LeBron
2. Harden
3. KD
4. Curry
5. Paul
6. Davis
7. Oladipo
8. Horford
9. Giannis
10. Lillard

Without factoring the injuries and missed time from CP3 and Curry, my top 5 would be

1. LeBron
2. Harden/Curry
4. Paul
5. KD

[Joey Wheeler]

I'd go:

1-Lebron James
2-Anthony Davis
3-Kevin Durant
4-James Harden
5-Giannis Antetokounmpo

Clear top 5 to me, only the order of 2-4 is really dicey.

[ardee]

Vote hasn't changed since the last time.

LeBron
Harden
Davis
Giannis
Lillard

I just don't understand how you (and others) have players like Lillard over Curry and KD after he embarrassed himself on the biggest stage. It's just absurd. He had single digit PER while playing an inferior team and he's the top 5 POY? Absurd.

I'm holding Curry's missed time against him, just like I am with Paul.

With Durant, it's about whether or not you buy into the hype or find him overrated.

With that said, I don't understand the Lillard selection at all either. Feel like if you're not going either Durant or Curry, there are guys like Oladipo or even Westbrook that deserve far stronger consideration than Lillard.

It can't be Durant or Curry and I'm not a believer with Dipo. Westbrook can be in the mix yeah.

Lillard's RS was highly impressive though, I know his Playoffs were a miss but the RS keeps him in the discussion. 5 is the only spot I'm wavering on.

[Basileus777]

Holding missed games against a player is reasonable, but such a position necessitates a list based heavily on the regular season or else it doesn't logically work. If you're heavily weighting the postseason, especially the later rounds, then missed regular season games don't seem especially relevant.

[GSP]

I just don't understand how you (and others) have players like Lillard over Curry and KD after he embarrassed himself on the biggest stage. It's just absurd. He had single digit PER while playing an inferior team and he's the top 5 POY? Absurd.

I'm holding Curry's missed time against him, just like I am with Paul.

With Durant, it's about whether or not you buy into the hype or find him overrated.

With that said, I don't understand the Lillard selection at all either. Feel like if you're not going either Durant or Curry, there are guys like Oladipo or even Westbrook that deserve far stronger consideration than Lillard.

It can't be Durant or Curry and I'm not a believer with Dipo. Westbrook can be in the mix yeah.

Lillard's RS was highly impressive though, I know his Playoffs were a miss but the RS keeps him in the discussion. 5 is the only spot I'm wavering on.

The warriors just had one of the most dominant playoffs again. Its just been overshadowed by the Goat one they had last year

its strange that it cant be Kd or Curry considering theyre basically a 5 man team..........

How can u not be a believe in Dipo but prop up Lillard so much? Has Damian ever had a series as impressive as Dipos? Indy outscored the Cavs by 40 and were the better team when Dipo was on the court all series. He was a top 3 perimeter defender and it showed in the Cavs series and he some great offensive games too

[dhsilv2]

And a legit top 5 remains difficult.

1. harden - this has been locked in for some time now.
2. Lebron - really still dumbfounded that he moved up so much for me in the playoffs.

And this is where it gets really hard.

3. Giannis
4. AD

And now I'm just at a loss. Dipo is the no question stat choice...heck there's a case he should be 3 on this list if we use RPM. I want to give Simmons the award and I wasn't overly upset with his Boston series. Then we have Curry and Paul who are the best two players actually maybe the best two period this year, but missed games in the post season and regular season are a huge issue. I have to give KD some love here as well I feel like, but I can't see voting him here. Draymond actually has the better RPM over KD and honestly Dray was the key to that rockets series (the real nba finals).

Anyway the more I think about it, I'd just be remiss to not put Dipo at 5 and I still have to debate the Giannis/AD spot or if Dipo should move up.

If I were to round out the top 10 it would look something like

6. Draymond
7. Horford
8. Curry
9. Paul
10. Simmons
11. Gobert (I can't leave him out he was just too good).

Again that last grouping do not argue with me, I don't trust it myself. It's just where my head is at right this moment.

[dhsilv2]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vSzp3G5rwP9xgCgluVGmR3Qj4-BMoGSYiuTKM6o_pzES6s95oQE1nQvB2CXed-4fRc_MMGgpULtDaJ_/pubhtml?gid=730970445&single=true

2018 playoff RAPM(without finals game 4)

playoff RAPM, RAPM needing another 20-40 games before it'll be useful

Cool thing to have though. Thank you.

[dhsilv2]

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

Man, every now and then I'll be watching and then it hits me how hyped and talked about that guy was coming into the league. It's legit like a punch in the face. Really really feel glad for that guy and I just want to say. He is a legit good player who sometimes gets forgotten on this team, but he's a real value add!

[therealbig3]

Holding missed games against a player is reasonable, but such a position necessitates a list based heavily on the regular season or else it doesn't logically work. If you're heavily weighting the postseason, especially the later rounds, then missed regular season games don't seem especially relevant.

Not necessarily, because winning RS games is important for seeding and HCA. Steph is lucky to be in a situation where he can miss a lot of RS games and his team still wins a lot of games, while other stars don't have that luxury. Doesn't seem fair to essentially reward him for that by discounting the RS games.

Not to mention, he DID miss PS games. He missed the entire 1st round and the first game of the 2nd round. Again, how many other stars can afford to do that in the playoffs and their team still goes 5-1 in those games?

And, when he did come back, he didn't really play all that amazing anyway.

All in all, missing so much time really holds him back in comparison to other stars that were actually available for their teams...and pretty much all of them HAD to be available for their teams to have any sort of success at all.

[Dr Spaceman]

So, where I'm at:

Top 2 slots are between LeBron and Harden. I'll be thinking further on this.

Next 3 spots I currently have:

3. Durant - superstar who carried the load for the champs
4. Curry - vital component of champs, brilliant peaks, but injuries and spotty play
5. Davis - great year that feels like a step forward

Honorable Mention:
Paul - great year that further shapes his legacy regardless of just missing out
Giannis - clearly a Top 10 player
Gobert - I think he's a Top 10 players
Oladipo - feels like a clear Top 10 season
Draymond - still worthy of this shout out

The guy I'm sad to leave off her is Horford, but oh well.

I’m with you on a lot of these, but man, Curry over Davis is tough for me.

Curry missed a full 1/3rd of both his team’s regular and post season and was limited when he did play for much of the rest of the PS.

And to be frank, o don’t even think he played well this year. I struggle to remember him putting together a full 48 minutes of good basketball. Even the games he was great in he’d often sleep walk through the first two quarters and then just blitz them with 7 threes in the third quarters. I mean it won his team games but realistically how many guys have a cast who could hold serve against Finals-caliber opponents and wait for him to get his **** together? Certainly not LeBron who was averaging 47 minutes and certainly not Davis who’s team was just wrecked every moment he sat.

I just don’t see it with Curry. I almost grade out his season as a GOAT-level sixth man. His minute load was Ginobili-esque and while his team obviously played by far their best ball with him running the show he just didn’t have it in him to run the show consistently. Ranking Curry this high means you think essentially the 7 good quarters he had outweigh full playoff rounds worth of lesser, but still superstar impact.

[GSP]

So, where I'm at:

Top 2 slots are between LeBron and Harden. I'll be thinking further on this.

Next 3 spots I currently have:

3. Durant - superstar who carried the load for the champs
4. Curry - vital component of champs, brilliant peaks, but injuries and spotty play
5. Davis - great year that feels like a step forward

Honorable Mention:
Paul - great year that further shapes his legacy regardless of just missing out
Giannis - clearly a Top 10 player
Gobert - I think he's a Top 10 players
Oladipo - feels like a clear Top 10 season
Draymond - still worthy of this shout out

The guy I'm sad to leave off her is Horford, but oh well.

I’m with you on a lot of these, but man, Curry over Davis is tough for me.

Curry missed a full 1/3rd of both his team’s regular and post season and was limited when he did play for much of the rest of the PS.

And to be frank, o don’t even think he played well this year. I struggle to remember him putting together a full 48 minutes of good basketball. Even the games he was great in he’d often sleep walk through the first two quarters and then just blitz them with 7 threes in the third quarters. I mean it won his team games but realistically how many guys have a cast who could hold serve against Finals-caliber opponents and wait for him to get his **** together? Certainly not LeBron who was averaging 47 minutes and certainly not Davis who’s team was just wrecked every moment he sat.

I just don’t see it with Curry. I almost grade out his season as a GOAT-level sixth man. His minute load was Ginobili-esque and while his team obviously played by far their best ball with him running the show he just didn’t have it in him to run the show consistently. Ranking Curry this high means you think essentially the 7 good quarters he had outweigh full playoff rounds worth of lesser, but still superstar impact.

the 6th man comparison is interesting since he buried the Pelicans in game 2 coming off the bench

Obviously Kd was easily their best player in the playoffs but was Steph better then Draymond given Draymond didnt miss a game, played the most minutes on the team and was back to his Dpoy self?

Kd will have a big lead in playoff on/off after game 4 and Draymond or Iggy will be 2nd

[dhsilv2]

So, where I'm at:

Top 2 slots are between LeBron and Harden. I'll be thinking further on this.

Next 3 spots I currently have:

3. Durant - superstar who carried the load for the champs
4. Curry - vital component of champs, brilliant peaks, but injuries and spotty play
5. Davis - great year that feels like a step forward

Honorable Mention:
Paul - great year that further shapes his legacy regardless of just missing out
Giannis - clearly a Top 10 player
Gobert - I think he's a Top 10 players
Oladipo - feels like a clear Top 10 season
Draymond - still worthy of this shout out

The guy I'm sad to leave off her is Horford, but oh well.

I’m with you on a lot of these, but man, Curry over Davis is tough for me.

Curry missed a full 1/3rd of both his team’s regular and post season and was limited when he did play for much of the rest of the PS.

And to be frank, o don’t even think he played well this year. I struggle to remember him putting together a full 48 minutes of good basketball. Even the games he was great in he’d often sleep walk through the first two quarters and then just blitz them with 7 threes in the third quarters. I mean it won his team games but realistically how many guys have a cast who could hold serve against Finals-caliber opponents and wait for him to get his **** together? Certainly not LeBron who was averaging 47 minutes and certainly not Davis who’s team was just wrecked every moment he sat.

I just don’t see it with Curry. I almost grade out his season as a GOAT-level sixth man. His minute load was Ginobili-esque and while his team obviously played by far their best ball with him running the show he just didn’t have it in him to run the show consistently. Ranking Curry this high means you think essentially the 7 good quarters he had outweigh full playoff rounds worth of lesser, but still superstar impact.

You think Manu as a top 3 player would have been insane in a few of his years? I'll just say right now I doubt I'd do it, but I'd not consider that argument for Manu weak at all. Given he's your comp you're either way more down on Manu than I think or you're saying Curry has a good case.

[dhsilv2]

So, where I'm at:

Top 2 slots are between LeBron and Harden. I'll be thinking further on this.

Next 3 spots I currently have:

3. Durant - superstar who carried the load for the champs
4. Curry - vital component of champs, brilliant peaks, but injuries and spotty play
5. Davis - great year that feels like a step forward

Honorable Mention:
Paul - great year that further shapes his legacy regardless of just missing out
Giannis - clearly a Top 10 player
Gobert - I think he's a Top 10 players
Oladipo - feels like a clear Top 10 season
Draymond - still worthy of this shout out

The guy I'm sad to leave off her is Horford, but oh well.

I’m with you on a lot of these, but man, Curry over Davis is tough for me.

Curry missed a full 1/3rd of both his team’s regular and post season and was limited when he did play for much of the rest of the PS.

And to be frank, o don’t even think he played well this year. I struggle to remember him putting together a full 48 minutes of good basketball. Even the games he was great in he’d often sleep walk through the first two quarters and then just blitz them with 7 threes in the third quarters. I mean it won his team games but realistically how many guys have a cast who could hold serve against Finals-caliber opponents and wait for him to get his **** together? Certainly not LeBron who was averaging 47 minutes and certainly not Davis who’s team was just wrecked every moment he sat.

I just don’t see it with Curry. I almost grade out his season as a GOAT-level sixth man. His minute load was Ginobili-esque and while his team obviously played by far their best ball with him running the show he just didn’t have it in him to run the show consistently. Ranking Curry this high means you think essentially the 7 good quarters he had outweigh full playoff rounds worth of lesser, but still superstar impact.

the 6th man comparison is interesting since he buried the Pelicans in game 2 coming off the bench

Obviously Kd was easily their best player in the playoffs but was Steph better then Draymond given Draymond didnt miss a game, played the most minutes on the team and was back to his Dpoy self?

Kd will have a big lead in playoff on/off after game 4 and Draymond or Iggy will be 2nd

Why was KD clearly better than Draymond? dray was clearly the best warrior against the rockets. If that's the series we judge them on shouldn't he get more credit?

[Dr Spaceman]

So, where I'm at:

Top 2 slots are between LeBron and Harden. I'll be thinking further on this.

Next 3 spots I currently have:

3. Durant - superstar who carried the load for the champs
4. Curry - vital component of champs, brilliant peaks, but injuries and spotty play
5. Davis - great year that feels like a step forward

Honorable Mention:
Paul - great year that further shapes his legacy regardless of just missing out
Giannis - clearly a Top 10 player
Gobert - I think he's a Top 10 players
Oladipo - feels like a clear Top 10 season
Draymond - still worthy of this shout out

The guy I'm sad to leave off her is Horford, but oh well.

I’m with you on a lot of these, but man, Curry over Davis is tough for me.

Curry missed a full 1/3rd of both his team’s regular and post season and was limited when he did play for much of the rest of the PS.

And to be frank, o don’t even think he played well this year. I struggle to remember him putting together a full 48 minutes of good basketball. Even the games he was great in he’d often sleep walk through the first two quarters and then just blitz them with 7 threes in the third quarters. I mean it won his team games but realistically how many guys have a cast who could hold serve against Finals-caliber opponents and wait for him to get his **** together? Certainly not LeBron who was averaging 47 minutes and certainly not Davis who’s team was just wrecked every moment he sat.

I just don’t see it with Curry. I almost grade out his season as a GOAT-level sixth man. His minute load was Ginobili-esque and while his team obviously played by far their best ball with him running the show he just didn’t have it in him to run the show consistently. Ranking Curry this high means you think essentially the 7 good quarters he had outweigh full playoff rounds worth of lesser, but still superstar impact.

You think Manu as a top 3 player would have been insane in a few of his years? I'll just say right now I doubt I'd do it, but I'd not consider that argument for Manu weak at all. Given he's your comp you're either way more down on Manu than I think or you're saying Curry has a good case.

There is no case MAnu was ever a top 3 player. 05 is the closest but at the very least he’s behind Garnett, Nash, Nowitzki, and Tim. Davis isn’t on the level of those guys, but he’s not terribly far. And in 05 you could make a great case for Wade and/or Shaq above Manu as well.

[dhsilv2]

I’m with you on a lot of these, but man, Curry over Davis is tough for me.

Curry missed a full 1/3rd of both his team’s regular and post season and was limited when he did play for much of the rest of the PS.

And to be frank, o don’t even think he played well this year. I struggle to remember him putting together a full 48 minutes of good basketball. Even the games he was great in he’d often sleep walk through the first two quarters and then just blitz them with 7 threes in the third quarters. I mean it won his team games but realistically how many guys have a cast who could hold serve against Finals-caliber opponents and wait for him to get his **** together? Certainly not LeBron who was averaging 47 minutes and certainly not Davis who’s team was just wrecked every moment he sat.

I just don’t see it with Curry. I almost grade out his season as a GOAT-level sixth man. His minute load was Ginobili-esque and while his team obviously played by far their best ball with him running the show he just didn’t have it in him to run the show consistently. Ranking Curry this high means you think essentially the 7 good quarters he had outweigh full playoff rounds worth of lesser, but still superstar impact.

You think Manu as a top 3 player would have been insane in a few of his years? I'll just say right now I doubt I'd do it, but I'd not consider that argument for Manu weak at all. Given he's your comp you're either way more down on Manu than I think or you're saying Curry has a good case.

There is no case MAnu was ever a top 3 player. 05 is the closest but at the very least he’s behind Garnett, Nash, Nowitzki, and Tim. Davis isn’t on the level of those guys, but he’s not terribly far. And in 05 you could make a great case for Wade and/or Shaq above Manu as well.

08 Manu had just as good or better case for top 3. I stand by Manu has been criminally under valued and while yeah I don't have him top 3 in 08 either, there's a DARN good case.

FYI 05 I'll take Many over nash

[Dr Spaceman]

You think Manu as a top 3 player would have been insane in a few of his years? I'll just say right now I doubt I'd do it, but I'd not consider that argument for Manu weak at all. Given he's your comp you're either way more down on Manu than I think or you're saying Curry has a good case.

There is no case MAnu was ever a top 3 player. 05 is the closest but at the very least he’s behind Garnett, Nash, Nowitzki, and Tim. Davis isn’t on the level of those guys, but he’s not terribly far. And in 05 you could make a great case for Wade and/or Shaq above Manu as well.

08 Manu had just as good or better case for top 3. I stand by Manu has been criminally under valued and while yeah I don't have him top 3 in 08 either, there's a DARN good case.

FYI 05 I'll take Many over nash

I do think Manu himself was better in 05 but I suppose the 08 argument is interesting. Still though I essentially can’t see him above KG, Kobe, Paul or LeBron so he’s disqualified for me.

As far as Nash in 05, I’m flabbergasted honestly. Nash had like one of the GOAT series ever against Dallas and was spectacular against SA as well. Given Manu’s main argument is his playoff performance I can’t get there with him over Nash.

Manu is underrated in general I agree, but on this board he may be overrated. It’s just hard to compare him favorably to guys who actually play star minutes for their teams and are within the same ballpark impact wise. The Spurs obviously played best with him out here, but most teams can Bank on 37 minutes of that impact as opposed to 28-31.

[dhsilv2]

There is no case MAnu was ever a top 3 player. 05 is the closest but at the very least he’s behind Garnett, Nash, Nowitzki, and Tim. Davis isn’t on the level of those guys, but he’s not terribly far. And in 05 you could make a great case for Wade and/or Shaq above Manu as well.

08 Manu had just as good or better case for top 3. I stand by Manu has been criminally under valued and while yeah I don't have him top 3 in 08 either, there's a DARN good case.

FYI 05 I'll take Many over nash

I do think Manu himself was better in 05 but I suppose the 08 argument is interesting. Still though I essentially can’t see him above KG, Kobe, Paul or LeBron so he’s disqualified for me.

As far as Nash in 05, I’m flabbergasted honestly. Nash had like one of the GOAT series ever against Dallas and was spectacular against SA as well. Given Manu’s main argument is his playoff performance I can’t get there with him over Nash.

Manu is underrated in general I agree, but on this board he may be overrated. It’s just hard to compare him favorably to guys who actually play star minutes for their teams and are within the same ballpark impact wise. The Spurs obviously played best with him out here, but most teams can Bank on 37 minutes of that impact as opposed to 28-31.

Oh man off to get me heated! lol. Manu was nearly 35 a game in the 05 playoffs (23 games). What's this 28-31 crap? Even in the season it was 30. Really 37 is that big a difference? Oh and Manu league the league in RAPM in 05. Nash was 26th in RAPM.

Manu played super star minutes in the playoffs. This seems odd here in the POY discussion, but I think it has to be discussed. The "manu" model is being used for more and more stars today. Coaches are more and more trying to cut minutes to preserve stars and Manu in his prime wasn't playing crazy low minutes when you compare it to today. A bit less sure but it wasn't the same gap. Why should he get downgraded because Pop figured things out sooner?

[AdagioPace]

this year looks like 2016, 2014, 2002
Two clearly better players than the rest.

A summary: The run for the 3rd becomes murky. Even with games missed Curry was still the best when he played but he missed too much time. Lots of competitors for the RS,each with a convincing argument. Durant gets the advantage for the PS.

[iggymcfrack]

I feel really, really solid about:

1. LeBron James
2. James Harden
3. Anthony Davis
4. Giannis Antetokounmpo
5. Victor Oladipo

After that, it’s a total crapshoot. Steph, KD, CP3, Draymond, Horford, take your pick.

Oladipo was a monster though and was CLEARLY better than KD and Steph in my mind. The argument for the Warriors guys is supposed to be playoffs, but Oladipo had similar postseason numbers while playing much better defense, and his playoff on/off was +19.7. That’s right the Pacers were 20 points a game better with him on the court than on the bench. For comparison’s sake, KD was +8.2, Dray was +4.6, and Steph was +3.6. I think if anything the postseason strengthens Oladipo’s case to keep a Top 5 spot. The fact that 3 top 10 players playing together didn’t choke away their one losable series after Chris Paul got hurt doesn’t change that.