uberhikari wrote:
1. I can rate West and Wilt because our ability to gauge offensive impact is way better than our ability to gauge defensive impact. Russell was surrounded by an assortment of good/great defenders on the perimeter. How can I attribute all of Boston's defense to just Russell?
To the bolded above, I’d note that we don’t have a great deal of indication that Wilt was a big-impact [like all-time top 10-15ish level] offensive player. He scored a lot of points, yes; but so did Allen Iverson.
I’m not saying Wilt ~= Allen Iverson, because the thing is: Wilt also had a lot of defensive impact. Most of us [on this site] would agree that the lion’s share of Wilt’s impact came on the defensive end (the end that you’re saying is so difficult to gauge).
To the underlined portion, as always, semantics apply pertaining to exactly how liberal or literal you’re being with “surrounded by” and “good/great”, but I want to explore this question a little. Because if you’re questioning it, it’s worth looking into, and Russell is far too relevant a player to brush aside simply because the going gets tough, as it were.
So I’m going to delve into just how “surrounded by” he was [with “good/great” defensive help], as well as look for indications of how much of those great defenses we can attribute specifically to Russell. I’ll examine this in numbered stages (and I’ll state that I’m not sure what I’m going to find, as I’ve never looked into this to the degree that I intend to here).
But first, as sort of a one-off, I feel it’s only fair to mention that even if he did have some good perimeter defensive cores (question to be examined below), he was also paired with WEAK defensive PF’s pretty much his whole career (Tom Heinsohn ‘57-’65, Bailey Howell ‘67-’69). Let’s not forget that as we move thru this.
1) While I’ll also make mention of additional frontcourt players below, I’ll start with listing the principle "perimeter" players surrounding him:
*Bill Sharman (‘57-’61)
*Bob Cousy (‘57-’63)
*Jim Loscutoff (‘57-’64)
Frank Ramsey (‘57-’64)
Sam Jones (‘58-’69, though didn’t really play significant minutes in ‘58)
K.C. Jones (‘59-’67, though didn’t play significant minutes in ‘59)
**Tom Sanders (‘61-’69)
**John Havlicek (‘63-’69)
**Larry Siegfried (‘64-’69)
#Willie Naulls (‘64-’66)
**#Don Nelson (‘66-’69)
**Em Bryant (‘69)
*All three were present on the Celtics in ‘56 (before Russell’s arrival)
**These five were still around the year(s) after Russell’s retirement
#Not sure if these really count as "perimeter players", as they were more combo forwards (though Satch Sanders kinda was too, and I assume you were including consideration of him when you wrote the above underlined statement).
2) Let’s next look at each of these players individually from a defensive standpoint…..
Bill Sharman, by all accounts, was a tenacious and scrappy defender. Otoh, although reportedly a decent athlete [for the era, at least], he stood only 6’1” (sort of short for a SG even in that era), and weighed just 175 lbs. I suspect he was a positive impact defender for much of his career, though I’d be skeptical about any sort of elite or "great" status defensively, especially during the years next to Russell (where Sharman’s ability was no doubt declining due to age, while the median level of athleticism [and size] in the league was on the rise).
Bob Cousy was not a strong defender; in fact, many would even say he was a weak defensive player. The latter may be a fair characterization, too, at least for the last 2-3 seasons played with Russell (Cousy declining, while the league is improving). Even though he’s one of my all-time favorite players, I must acknowledge that he was never better than an average defender, and likely less than that for much of his time as Russell’s teammate.
Jim Loscutoff was 6’5”, built like a tank, and played SF (think of a PJ Tucker sort of body, basically). "Jungle Jim" was indeed a good (great?) defensive perimeter player. That was sort of the basis of his entire NBA career, because he was an utterly putrid offensive player. He could be characterized as tough, physical, and gritty on the defensive side, and also rebounded very well for a SF.
Frank Ramsey was a 6’3” SG (played some at SF, too). I’ve seen only a very limited amount of game footage of Ramsey (most of it very late in his career), but his defense was described as “savvy” in a NY Times article at the time of his death, and he did rebound fairly well for his position (also looks like he had fairly quick hands in the limited amount I’ve seen). However, the bulk of his [positive] reputation as a player comes from his accurate shot and clutch playoff performances, not from his defense. We can likely justifiably label him as a positive defender, though likely not a truly elite defender. Is also worth noting he never averaged as high as 30 mpg in any rs (limits his per game impact).
Sam Jones…..I’ve never heard/read anything positive nor negative stated specifically regarding his defense. Red Auerbach is on record lauding Jones’s work ethic in general, and also said Sam would “do anything you asked him.” So hopefully some of that general sentiment also applies to him on the defensive end. From what I’ve seen of him (there are perhaps a dozen or thereabouts Celtics games I’ve watched with him in them [ranging from ‘61 to ‘69]), he looks like a capable defender: doesn’t jump off the screen as any sort of obviously positive impact defender, but nor does he look bad.
K.C. Jones, by all accounts, is one of the best defensive PG’s of his generation. One-time teammate Willie Naulls once called him “the best defensive guard in the history of the game” in a 2015 interview.
Tom Sanders was 6’6” (though to my eye looks like his effective length [with his reach] might be more like a 6’7” or 6’8” player), of sort of wirey strong build, and played mostly SF (a little PF). Sanders was indeed, first and foremost, a defensive role player who also rebounded pretty well for his position. Fairly assuredly a positive impact defensive player overall (and likely significantly so in some years).
John Havlicek was [likely] also a positive impact defender most years of his career. Quick and physical with unrelenting endurance, he was keyed in pretty much every defensive possession in the games I’ve watched.
Larry Siegfried has a decent defensive reputation (described as “sticky” in his obituary article in the NY Times), though he’s certainly more remembered for his solid shooting and taking good care of the ball. At 6’3” and fairly limited athleticism [even for the time], he doesn’t really jump out at me as someone who looks like a major defensive factor, though I could believe that he may have been a small positive defensively [some years, at least].
Willie Naulls was 6’6” with a decent build, and was something of a combo forward (bbref lists him mostly as a SF (some PF), though other sources classify him as a “PF/C”). He rebounded well for a SF/combo forward (probably NOT so well for a PF/C, if that is indeed more accurate). He has some history playing for teams that favoured pressure defense, though I cannot find any statements specifically about his defensive acumen (good or bad), and I don’t have enough “eye-test” to say one way or the other on him. At any rate, he was just an 18-20 mpg role player as a Celtic, so overall it’s perhaps fair to characterize him as an “average” defender????
Don Nelson was 6’6”, somewhat thick build, but mediocre athlete; played combo forward (though mostly SF, if I’m not mistaken). Though I found one account referring to him as “tough” [in a general sense], most of his reputation as a player comes from being an efficient scorer (and from having that wildly comical FT shot); and I must admit I’ve never noted anything about his play that skewed my opinion toward “defensive stopper” or similar. Also, looking at a lot of his coaching trends (which erred toward offense > defense philosophies), it’s hard for me to peg him as anything better than an average defensive player (even that may be generous???).
Em Bryant was small (6’1”), but a pretty good athlete. I can't find specific indications/comments regarding his defense either way, but I will note that upon graduating from DePaul he was drafted both by the New York Knicks as well as the Dallas Cowboys (as a defensive back). I don’t know if defensive back prowess necessarily translates to being good at basketball defense (though I kinda want to hedge toward “yes” on that). I need to re-watch the ‘69 Finals to better shape an opinion.
So it’s true that Russell had some good perimeter defenders around him during his tenure in the league, though not completely “surrounded” by them. For the first half of his career, anyway, there was fairly consistently one potential weak spot in the perimeter defensive core [Cousy], as well as periodic other average defenders (Sam Jones, Willie Naulls, Don Nelson, perhaps select years of Siegfried or Ramsey).
3) But anyway, now that we’ve looked at each individual perimeter defender----and have listed above what years they played with Russell (and which ones were Celtics before/after Russell’s career)----let’s look at some Celtic team defensive trends in context of roster changes to see if we can tease out just how much Russell is to “blame” for their elite defense (vs crediting these perimeter players [or others])......
I’ll try to use changes in DRtg wherever possible, though I’ll occasionally look at differences in ppg allowed. I suspect, however, that shifts in ppg allowed is going to be less reliable as it’s fairly well established that Red looked to Russell to ignite the fast-break (off a block or DReb and outlet pass), and otherwise wanted shots going up in a hurry when Russell played: this strategy based on the vague notion that with Russell anchoring the defense, the more possessions they could force per game would equate to a larger point-differential; even if they have to take a lot of bad shots, their offense still won’t be as bad as that of their opponent [because of what Russell does defensively]. That’s why I don’t like it when people use the Celtic ORtg’s as the end-all of criticism against Cousy…..but I digress.
3a) Moving from ‘56 to ‘57…….
*the Celtics basically retained their primary perimeter core (lost a 20 mpg Ernie Barnett, but retained ALL THREE of the top-minute perimeter players from ‘56 [Cousy, Sharman, and Loscutoff], as well as a partial season from 11 mpg SF Togo Palazzi). Frank Ramsey was also added, though he wouldn’t arrive until mid-season (and avg just 23.1 mpg).
**Heinsohn replaced most of the minutes at PF (I don’t know if Jack Nichols was any good on defense, but it’s a safe bet that Heinsohn was NOT an improvement defensively).
***Otherwise, the only major roster changes were Bill Russell replaced Ed Macauley/Arnie Risen at C (Macauley traded away).
The result: their rDRTG improved from +1.4 to -4.9 (a -6.3 improvement, which proportionally is even a little more impressive than a 6.3-shift would be today), despite the fact that Russell didn’t even join the team until nearly two months into the season (as he’d been helping Team USA win gold at the Olympics).
That’s a helluva defensive improvement, and I’m going to be assertive and state it almost certainly was NOT a result of Tom Heinsohn. So that basically leaves the arrival of Bill Russell as principle factor in that change.
Unless one wants to argue that the half-season [23 mpg] of Frank Ramsey played a big part in it. That’s a hard sell, though, given Ramsey WAS around for ‘55 but missed ‘56 due to military service, but their rDRTG did NOT worsen without Ramsey in ‘56; in fact, it improved by 1.8.
Now to be fair, that improvement seen in Ramsey’s absence may have been the result of the addition of C Arnie Risen (who had a good defensive reputation) in ‘56. Risen was still there in ‘57, too, however; he was the guy filling in as starting C while Russell was at the Olympics. Fwiw, the Celtics allowed 100.6 ppg in the first 24 games of ‘57 with Risen [again: a more than capable defensive big man] playing big minutes in Russell’s absence; the Celtics allowed 100.0 ppg in the last 48 with Russell starting (despite a likely faster pace for reasons mentioned above).
3b) ‘58
They still had the starting backcourt of Cousy and Sharman, and they get the full season of Frank Ramsey this year, too. Rookie Sam Jones arrives, but doesn’t play relevant minutes. Probably their single-best perimeter defensive player on the team, Jim Loscutoff, misses basically the entire year. Other good defensive perimeter players haven’t yet arrived (as indicated previously), and perhaps worth mentioning that Arnie Risen (in this, his final season) was 33 years old before the rs even started [i.e. likely in decline]. But this doesn’t damage the team’s defensive performance. No, in fact their rDRTG improves marginally [-0.3] to a -5.2, likely a result of having Russell for a full season, instead of just ⅔ of it. I’ll also suggest that Russell likely improves thru his first few/several seasons; this is both common of most players, but also perhaps especially likely for Russell in particular, as he was a very cerebral and studious player. Just putting that out there as something to bear in mind as we move along.
3c) ‘59
Jim Loscutoff is back this season, and K.C. Jones is a rookie (though hardly playing relevant minutes); on the flip-side, aging Arnie Risen has retired. Sam Jones is getting a little more playing time (which is probably neither here nor there wrt defense).
rDRTG improves another -0.5 to -5.7. Fwiw, this was the year Red Auerbach convinced Russell that he didn’t need to be a conventional [scoring] offensive hub, and that he was happy if Russell focused his energies on defense (and we do see a noticeable drop in his shot-attempt rates this year, down to a rate it would sort of level off at before declining still further late in his career--->never returning to the relative higher shot-rates of his first two seasons). Russell also playing more minutes than the previous two seasons.
You parse out the credit as you see fit for the defensive trend here.
3d) ‘60-’63
In ‘60, K.C. Jones is getting more regular playing time (though still only like 17 mpg off the bench), though Jim Loscutoff again misses much of the season. rDRTG improves another -0.5 to -6.2.
In ‘61, K.C. Jones getting marginally more minutes than last year (~20 mpg), Loscutoff is back (though from here on out would be a more limited-minute bench role player, barely getting relevant minutes by '63), and Sam Jones now up to ~26 mpg as Sharman [final season] is in decline; Cousy maybe on the front end of decline, too. A rookie Tom Sanders has arrived (though still playing limited minutes), and Russell’s playing time increases still marginally further (from 42.5 to 44.3). rDRTG improves another -1.4 to a now fairly ridiculous [especially proportionally, as league avg was only around 92] -7.6.
In ‘62 (again: Russell continually improving throughout these years to this point--->a year some consider his peak) Russell’s playing time hits a career high 45.2 mpg. Sharman (a supposedly good perimeter defender) has retired, K.C. Jones now playing closer to 26 mpg (Sam Jones playing a little more too), and Tom Sanders is also a starter playing 29 mpg. rDRTG improves another -0.9 to -8.5.
In ‘63, Sanders, K.C. Jones, and Frank Ramsey all play at least marginally fewer minutes to make room for rookie John Havlicek. rDRTG holds steady at -8.5.
3e) ‘64 and ‘65
In ‘64 Bob Cousy [who’d likely been a poor(ish) defender in his final season] has retired and Frank Ramsey (in his final season) is playing somewhat fewer minutes than years passed. These minutes are largely replaced by the addition of Willie Naulls----an [average??] defender----and increased playing time for K.C. Jones, John Havlicek (who likely improved in his 2nd season, too), and Tom Sanders--->very good defenders these three. rDRTG improves to an historically great -10.8. (The addition of rookie Larry Siegfried doesn’t really bear mentioning, as he barely played as a rookie).
In ‘65, with basically the same roster composition except that Ramsey and Loscutoff have now retired (the latter wasn't really a consistent rotational player in '64)----their minutes replaced by 2nd-year Siegfried and increased time for Sam Jones (career high 36.1 mpg this year); also near-irrelevant minutes from rookie back-up C Mel Counts----their rDRTG drops somewhat to a still stellar -9.4.
3f) ‘66
Tom Heinsohn has now retired. Tom Sanders is largely shifted down to PF to cover that (marginally undersized for the task, though still a very capable defensive player, right?). Don Nelson [average defender at best???] has been added to the roster; he too plays a little PF as the Celtics to some degree “go small” (at PF, anyway; Willie Naulls played a little PF, too). Hondo is the SF, Sam Jones is starting SG, K.C. Jones at PG has his career high in mpg (33.9). Siegfried, now in his third year, is also playing very relevant minutes. Mel Counts gets a little more court-time too.
Team rDRTG falls to -6.6 (despite career-high minutes for K.C. Jones, >30 mpg from Hondo, >26 mpg from Sanders). Bill Russell turns 32 around mid-season, and might be at the very front edge of athletic decline (we do see his rate metrics fall this year).
3g) ‘67-’69 (The Bill Russell player/coach years)
In ‘67, Willie Naulls has retired and Mel Counts has left the club; Bailey Howell [weak defender] has joined the club, and also joining the club this year (though just 10 mpg) is big Wayne Embry as back-up C. Embry stood just 6’8”, but was built kinda like Chuck Hayes (thick and sturdy). I’m not finding a ton of written accounts on his defense, but my own eye-test and memory (iirc) of what I’ve read on this forum indicate he was a tough and physical low-post defender, but not a rim protector at all; decent rebounder.
Sanders plays slightly reduced minutes this season, though Havlicek plays the highest mpg he’d yet done in his career, K.C. Jones has his 2nd-highest mpg avg (31.4), Larry Siegfried (supposedly also a solid defender) has his career high (to that point) in mpg, too.
Russell drops his minutes marginally (nearly 3 mpg) from the previous season, and I recall reading (in The Rivalry by John Taylor) some implications of distraction in his first season as player/coach; also, did I mention something about potential age-related decline? He would turn 33 mid-season.
The team rDRTG falls a bit further to -5.1.
In ‘68 Russell reduces his own minutes 2-3 minutes more, while increasing Howell’s [weak defender] by 2-3 per game. K.C. Jones has retired, which is presumably a big loss (as he averaged 31.4 mpg in his final season). Havlicek, Siegfried, Embry, Nelson, and Sanders all have their minutes increased a little to fill the void, though. The rDRTG falls slightly further to -4.4.
In ‘69 an aging Sam Jones takes a significant reduction in minutes, and Wayne Embry is no longer with the team. Havlicek and Nelson get slightly more minutes, and new back-up PG Em Bryant is added to the roster (limited minutes, like 17 mpg). Aging (turns 35 mid-season), but determined (and now more comfortable in the player/coach role) Bill Russell increases his own playing time by nearly 5 mpg over ‘68.
rDRTG improves to -6.4 (improvement of -2.0 from prior year).
3h) ‘70 (after Russell)
So, Russell has retired (along with Sam Jones). They still had a prime John Havlicek (who would in this season play more minutes than ever before). They still have Tom Sanders too (though he’d miss 25 games, but was otherwise playing more mpg than he had in any of the previous FOUR seasons). Still had Em Bryant (possibly decent defender as above), who played a little more minutes than in ‘69. Still had Larry Siegfried (his minutes reduced from ‘69) and Don Nelson (his minutes increased from ‘69). Bailey Howell (WEAK defender) had his minutes REDUCED significantly. Rookie Jo Jo White (fairly decent man defender to my eye) is now present, too. And Don Chaney (arguably one of the greatest defensive SG’s of all-time, 5-time All-Defensive 2nd team) is in his 2nd year and now getting limited (but significant) minutes off the bench.
Overall [though debatable] I would say the defensive acumen of those filling the time at PG/SG/SF/PF improved marginally from ‘69 to ‘70. But Russell’s minutes at C were replaced by a combination of Hank Finkel, Jim Barnes, and Rich Johnson. And the end result was that the defense worsened by a staggering +6.3 (from -6.4 to -0.1)! Their SRS fell from +5.35 to -1.60.
3i) And beyond….
From ‘71 and beyond the Celtics would continue to have big minutes from John Havlicek, increasing role for defensive specialist Don Chaney, would add Dave Cowens (arriving in ‘71) and subsequently defensive specialist Paul Silas at PF (arriving in '73).......and yet they would never again reach the heights of defensive dominance that they had in Bill Russell’s FINAL (old, post-prime) season: they peaked at a -5.8 rDRTG (in ‘73), and even that was somewhat an outlier---> they’d otherwise never even manage better than a -3.0 rDRTG (significantly worse than the WORST defense of Russell’s 13 seasons).
I’ll also add Elgee’s regressed WOWY studies, where Russell has a career WOWYR of +6.2 (which is in company of the career marks of guys like David Robinson, John Stockton, Russell Westbrook, Steve Nash, Wilt Chamberlain, and Dolph Schayes).
If all of the above (in addition to the near-countless statements by professional peers) doesn’t provide the “extraordinary evidence” you’re looking for…….well, I just don’t know what else to say. The colloquialism “you can lead a horse to water….” comes to mind; I'm being a bit cheeky there, but [and some of this is news to me, as I've never before looked at it to this degree of depth] all that I've laid out above seems fairly clear to me.
LeBron is 0-7 in game winning/tying FGs in the finals. And is 20/116 or 17% in game winning/tying FGs in the 4th/OT for his career. That's historically bad 
