James Harden is a superstar

C-izMe · Post #481 » by **C-izMe** » Thu Nov 8, 2012 3:45 am

If he stinks against Memphis, Detroit, and Miami it might be a cold moment or variance. If he only plays bad against Miami and Memphis he might have a serious flaw in his game...

Still too many prematurely calling him a star. Funny how one game can change his stardom.

Krodis · Post #482 » by **Krodis** » Thu Nov 8, 2012 3:48 am

I mean, he's not going to play as well against good defenses, but that's true of just about everyone. If he continuously drops off a cliff against good defenses, that might be a concern though. But still, Iguodala is a great defender and held Wade to 14 a couple days ago. Deron Williams put up 14 on bad shooting and 7 turnovers today. Bad games happen. No reason to overreact to this one any more than there was reason to overreact to his first two.

Mavericksfan · Post #483 » by **Mavericksfan** » Thu Nov 8, 2012 3:51 am

Two amazing games, two terrible ones.

We'll see what happens against Memphis.

If he does continue to struggle against good teams thought would he really be a legit 1st option for a championship team?

Krodis · Post #484 » by **Krodis** » Thu Nov 8, 2012 4:00 am

Remember this picture from like two years ago?

http://cbswysp.files.wordpress.com/2011 ... =385&h=602

Iguodala is really darn good at man defense.

MisterWestside · Post #485 » by **MisterWestside** » Thu Nov 8, 2012 4:03 am

C-izMe wrote:If he stinks against Memphis, Detroit, and Miami it might be a cold moment or variance. If he only plays bad against Miami and Memphis he might have a serious flaw in his game...

And even then, you're basing this on what, two games? How many games do they play in a season?

Mavericksfan · Post #486 » by **Mavericksfan** » Thu Nov 8, 2012 4:14 am

I love how when Harden has two bad games we over react to it but when Harden has two great games it's "I knew he could do it all along!" " He was doing this in the 5:43 he was in the game without Durant/Westbrook!"

Krodis · Post #487 » by **Krodis** » Thu Nov 8, 2012 4:17 am

Goes both ways. People overreacted to the good (Probably myself included, although my high opinion of Harden is hardly solely based off of two games, I watched him for three years in OKC), people overreact to the bad.

CKRT · Post #488 » by **CKRT** » Thu Nov 8, 2012 5:24 am

having a good pick and roll big would help out Harden a lot. If Houston can get LMA that'd be amazing.

Post #489 » by **tsherkin** » Thu Nov 8, 2012 11:35 am

Mavericksfan wrote:I love how when Harden has two bad games we over react to it but when Harden has two great games it's "I knew he could do it all along!" " He was doing this in the 5:43 he was in the game without Durant/Westbrook!"

I don't follow; people have overreacted to Harden in both directions, as expected. It was bound to happen, it as inevitable. Now the sensible among us just shake our heads, lean back and wait to see what really happens.

C-izMe · Post #490 » by **C-izMe** » Thu Nov 8, 2012 1:29 pm

MisterWestside wrote:
C-izMe wrote:If he stinks against Memphis, Detroit, and Miami it might be a cold moment or variance. If he only plays bad against Miami and Memphis he might have a serious flaw in his game...

And even then, you're basing this on what, two games? How many games do they play in a season?

No at that point it will be based off last years PS and the first 7-8 games of this year.

therealbig3 · Post #491 » by **therealbig3** » Thu Nov 8, 2012 1:44 pm

C-izMe wrote:
MisterWestside wrote:
C-izMe wrote:If he stinks against Memphis, Detroit, and Miami it might be a cold moment or variance. If he only plays bad against Miami and Memphis he might have a serious flaw in his game...

And even then, you're basing this on what, two games? How many games do they play in a season?

No at that point it will be based off last years PS and the first 7-8 games of this year.

In last year's PS, he struggled against LA and Miami, and he lit up Dallas and SA. How does that show that he can't play against good teams?

When he dominates as the 2nd/3rd option, it doesn't prove anything about him as a #1 option, because Durant and Westbrook are taking SO much pressure off him, but when he struggles as the 2nd/3rd option, that clearly shows he doesn't cut it as the #1 option. I don't get that logic.

BTW, what about how Durant, Westbrook, and OKC as a whole have struggled so far without Harden? Durant is barely above 20 ppg with a big dropoff in his efficiency, Westbrook is sub-50% TS, and OKC's offense has been pretty average out of the gate.

G35 · Post #492 » by **G35** » Thu Nov 8, 2012 1:55 pm

tsherkin wrote:
Mavericksfan wrote:I love how when Harden has two bad games we over react to it but when Harden has two great games it's "I knew he could do it all along!" " He was doing this in the 5:43 he was in the game without Durant/Westbrook!"

I don't follow; people have overreacted to Harden in both directions, as expected. It was bound to happen, it as inevitable. Now the sensible among us just shake our heads, lean back and wait to see what really happens.

Which is 20/20 hindsight. It is expected to have these reactions. Which is why people are on this forum. I've realized that if we waited for the dust to clear and evaluate with all the facts this site would be barren of threads....

Post #493 » by **tsherkin** » Thu Nov 8, 2012 1:56 pm

therealbig3 wrote:BTW, what about how Durant, Westbrook, and OKC as a whole have struggled so far without Harden? Durant is barely above 20 ppg with a big dropoff in his efficiency, Westbrook is sub-50% TS, and OKC's offense has been pretty average out of the gate.

Should point out:

Harden was drafted in 2009, by which point Durant already had a season of 25+ ppg on 57.7% TS. Then Harden played 22.9 mpg as a rook while KD popped 30.3 ppg on 60.7% TS for the first of his three-straight scoring titles.

I don't think you can draw any serious conclusions saying KD relies on Harden from the opening few games of the season... much as you and I agree that 2 great performances against weak teams followed by 2 bad performances against good teams don't make for an enlightening sample for analyzing Harden.

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therealbig3 · Post #494 » by **therealbig3** » Thu Nov 8, 2012 2:05 pm

tsherkin wrote:
therealbig3 wrote:BTW, what about how Durant, Westbrook, and OKC as a whole have struggled so far without Harden? Durant is barely above 20 ppg with a big dropoff in his efficiency, Westbrook is sub-50% TS, and OKC's offense has been pretty average out of the gate.

Should point out:

Harden was drafted in 2009, by which point Durant already had a season of 25+ ppg on 57.7% TS. Then Harden played 22.9 mpg as a rook while KD popped 30.3 ppg on 60.7% TS for the first of his three-straight scoring titles.

I don't think you can draw any serious conclusions saying KD relies on Harden from the opening few games of the season... much as you and I agree that 2 great performances against weak teams followed by 2 bad performances against good teams don't make for an enlightening sample for analyzing Harden.

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I think since the emergence of Westbrook as a volume scoring threat, Durant has greatly benefitted from Harden's play to create easy looks for him.

But I pointed that out partly to just use the same logic that was used against Harden, but I also do think you'll see a slight decline in KD's numbers this year, even though he obviously will still be one of the elite scorers in the game. I do think Harden made a difference for him, and Westbrook for that matter. And I wouldn't be surprised if OKC's offense is significantly worse this year than last year.

Post #495 » by **tsherkin** » Thu Nov 8, 2012 2:27 pm

therealbig3 wrote:I think since the emergence of Westbrook as a volume scoring threat, Durant has greatly benefitted from Harden's play to create easy looks for him.

And I just definitively proved you wrong. 25 ppg on 58% TS kind of disproves that notion, especially since that happened in his second season in the league. Harden doesn't hurt, for sure, but don't overestimate his value to Durant individually.

To the team as a whole, that's something else, of course.

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ahonui06 · Post #496 » by **ahonui06** » Thu Nov 8, 2012 5:53 pm

2 contending teams and 2 atrocious games for Harden. Not sure he has what it takes to be a #1 option in the NBA especially with a weak supporting cast in Houston.

MisterWestside · Post #497 » by **MisterWestside** » Thu Nov 8, 2012 6:06 pm

ahonui06 wrote:2 contending teams and 2 atrocious games for Harden. Not sure he has what it takes to be a #1 option in the NBA especially with a weak supporting cast in Houston.

I'm not sure if you or other posters understand the importance of sample size.

ahonui06 · Post #498 » by **ahonui06** » Thu Nov 8, 2012 8:56 pm

MisterWestside wrote:
ahonui06 wrote:2 contending teams and 2 atrocious games for Harden. Not sure he has what it takes to be a #1 option in the NBA especially with a weak supporting cast in Houston.

I'm not sure if you or other posters understand the importance of sample size.

Also, had a terrible Finals against a solid defensive team. Nothing to do with sample size. For now, we can only go off of the data available. Once this season is over, I believe I will be proved correct in the fact that Harden isn't a true #1 option.

Post #499 » by **tsherkin** » Thu Nov 8, 2012 9:01 pm

ahonui06 wrote: For now, we can only go off of the data available.

The wiser option would be to hold off making any kind of half-assed judgement based on less than a half-dozen games, don't you think?

You can't learn much of value about a player's suitability to a role in 4 games and trying to extract such knowledge is an exercise in futility. Give it at least to the quarter mark before you start trying to see anything in the data. Let him start seeing teams more than once, get used to his all-new teammates/coach/offensive system/role for a bit, I mean seriously.

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Post #500 » by **Texas Chuck** » Thu Nov 8, 2012 9:16 pm

not to mention give Houston a little time to build a roster around him. That roster is a mismatched mess right now.