People who don't have Jordan as GOAT: What metric(s) would make you change your mind?

[Stalwart]

You guys really think Horace Grant was a superstar. Wow.

Who in the whole thread said this? Dont make strawmen arguments like these

Right back at cha

Jordan never played with other high volume scorers so of course he never "diminished" their games by making them take less shots per game

[AEnigma]

That is not a strawman, that is a statement of fact. Notice how you are imposing an invented stance onto a collective, whereas he is directly responding to your specific criticism of diminishment. Do you intend to meaningfully engage with these situational differences at any point?

[Stalwart]

I am not arguing that Lebron diminishes players by making them take less shots. Ive gone to great lengths to explain this. Yet the strawman persists.

[AEnigma]

Probably because your “great lengths” have not been separated from logical changes in offensive primacy or style. As has been explained in much greater length, without much from you in response.

Chris Bosh became a better player in Miami. He “sacrificed” his way into becoming more well-rounded offensively and defensively. Wade could not do the same, but you have done nothing to show why that should reflect more on Lebron than on Wade’s own limitations, or how the same would not be true next to Jordan. You have criticised Lebron for Kevin Love’s ineffectiveness without Lebron — without backing up any claims with real data — while simultaneously trying to hold up Kevin Love as a superstar player in general.

All Jordan has ever really been asked to do is stick to his strengths. Lebron has been forced to adapt constantly and add new strengths to accommodate teammates. Yet you continually treat this as an advantage for Jordan and a disadvantage for Lebron.

[Mazter]

How was the league worse?

Of course the league wasn't worse. These guys just say stuff.

So the fact that more is invested into player health, more is invested into development, more is invested into overseas talent, more is invested into analytical models of the game… no effect, league basically unchanged from the 1990s.

Always a riot how thick Jordan stans need to be about this point.

Not to mention the fact that 40-75% was hooked on coke mid 80's. Even rotational players nowadays invest in personal chefs and trainers to have themselves in the best condition for pre-season. Back then players were dropping like flies due to substance abuse.
Dumas averaged 15.8 ppg on 58.7 TS% in 26 minutes against Pippen and Jordan in Finals in 1993 while being hooked on coke, weed and alcohol since high school. I don't think he would make it through college today.

[prolific passer]

Of course the league wasn't worse. These guys just say stuff.

So the fact that more is invested into player health, more is invested into development, more is invested into overseas talent, more is invested into analytical models of the game… no effect, league basically unchanged from the 1990s.

Always a riot how thick Jordan stans need to be about this point.

Not to mention the fact that 40-75% was hooked on coke mid 80's. Even rotational players nowadays invest in personal chefs and trainers to have themselves in the best condition for pre-season. Back then players were dropping like flies due to substance abuse.
Dumas averaged 15.8 ppg on 58.7 TS% in 26 minutes against Pippen and Jordan in Finals in 1993 while being hooked on coke, weed and alcohol since high school. I don't think he would make it through college today.

Noice numbers for having to deal with all that.

[prolific passer]

Probably because your “great lengths” have not been separated from logical changes in offensive primacy or style. As has been explained in much greater length, without much from you in response.

Chris Bosh became a better player in Miami. He “sacrificed” his way into becoming more well-rounded offensively and defensively. Wade could not do the same, but you have done nothing to show why that should reflect more on Lebron than on Wade’s own limitations, or how the same would not be true next to Jordan. You have criticised Lebron for Kevin Love’s ineffectiveness without Lebron — without backing up any claims with real data — while simultaneously trying to hold up Kevin Love as a superstar player in general.

All Jordan has ever really been asked to do is stick to his strengths. Lebron has been forced to adapt constantly and add new strengths to accommodate teammates. Yet you continually treat this as an advantage for Jordan and a disadvantage for Lebron.

How many strengths did Lebron add? He was already a 27 7 7 guy since his 2nd year in the league.

[LukaTheGOAT]

Probably because your “great lengths” have not been separated from logical changes in offensive primacy or style. As has been explained in much greater length, without much from you in response.

Chris Bosh became a better player in Miami. He “sacrificed” his way into becoming more well-rounded offensively and defensively. Wade could not do the same, but you have done nothing to show why that should reflect more on Lebron than on Wade’s own limitations, or how the same would not be true next to Jordan. You have criticised Lebron for Kevin Love’s ineffectiveness without Lebron — without backing up any claims with real data — while simultaneously trying to hold up Kevin Love as a superstar player in general.

All Jordan has ever really been asked to do is stick to his strengths. Lebron has been forced to adapt constantly and add new strengths to accommodate teammates. Yet you continually treat this as an advantage for Jordan and a disadvantage for Lebron.

How many strengths did Lebron add? He was already a 27 7 7 guy since his 2nd year in the league.

Better midrange shooting, better 3-point shooting, better post-game, some might argue better cutter. His finishing numbers at the rim in Mia are arguably better. I think you could argue maybe he a gambled a bit less on defense for steals. He increased his efficiency.

[AEnigma]

Probably because your “great lengths” have not been separated from logical changes in offensive primacy or style. As has been explained in much greater length, without much from you in response.

Chris Bosh became a better player in Miami. He “sacrificed” his way into becoming more well-rounded offensively and defensively. Wade could not do the same, but you have done nothing to show why that should reflect more on Lebron than on Wade’s own limitations, or how the same would not be true next to Jordan. You have criticised Lebron for Kevin Love’s ineffectiveness without Lebron — without backing up any claims with real data — while simultaneously trying to hold up Kevin Love as a superstar player in general.

All Jordan has ever really been asked to do is stick to his strengths. Lebron has been forced to adapt constantly and add new strengths to accommodate teammates. Yet you continually treat this as an advantage for Jordan and a disadvantage for Lebron.

How many strengths did Lebron add? He was already a 27 7 7 guy since his 2nd year in the league.

Are you saying that you think Lebron has never deviated much from the 2005 version of himself?

[Stalwart]

Probably because your “great lengths” have not been separated from logical changes in offensive primacy or style. As has been explained in much greater length, without much from you in response.

Chris Bosh became a better player in Miami. He “sacrificed” his way into becoming more well-rounded offensively and defensively. Wade could not do the same, but you have done nothing to show why that should reflect more on Lebron than on Wade’s own limitations, or how the same would not be true next to Jordan. You have criticised Lebron for Kevin Love’s ineffectiveness without Lebron — without backing up any claims with real data — while simultaneously trying to hold up Kevin Love as a superstar player in general.

All Jordan has ever really been asked to do is stick to his strengths. Lebron has been forced to adapt constantly and add new strengths to accommodate teammates. Yet you continually treat this as an advantage for Jordan and a disadvantage for Lebron.

Uh..it was Lebron who cost the Heat the 2011 NBA Championship because he was "uncomfortable". It was Wade who pulled back his game for Lebron. He did it specifically to make Lebron "feel comfortable". If Lebron doesn't choke in the finals theres no need for Wade to pull back his game.

And its Lebron fans who have criticized Bosh and Love when they claim Lebron had no help. If only Lebron had a true superstar PF like Horace Grant he would have won more titles they say. Yet they won't address how Love and Bosh were forced to reinvent themselves as basketball players and never given a consistent role in the offense.

So which is it. Did Lebron have two superstar power forwards who adapted and became even better basketball players and providing massive support for the team. Or did Lebron need more help from all time greats like Horace Grant and John Paxson to win more titles? I'm just trying to figure this out.

[capfan33]

Couple of general observations I have regarding this thread which has once again devolved into Jordan v Lebron for the umpteenth time lol:

1. Yes the league is better today than in MJs era or any other period. It's just common sense and basic logic. Ignoring subjective statements like "look at all the great players in the 90s, of course, it was better than today," which anyone can make about any era.

The major factors that I would say constitute league strength are talent pool, the economic value generated by a sport, divided by the number of teams/players. Using this, the league is inarguably stronger today than it ever has been. Basketball is more globalized, popular, and generates more revenue than it ever has, and the number of NBA teams/players has basically been stagnant for 25 years. The last 3 MVPs make this trend blatantly obvious. The game has gotten more and more specialized, competitive and advanced in terms of tactics and strategy. This is just objectively true.

This doesn't mean Lebron is better than MJ, that MJ would suck today, whatever, but in the most basic sense, the league is better today than it ever has been. If the NBA adds 4 teams next year then we can start arguing about league strength.

2. There seems to be this idea that Lebron has never had to adapt, specifically in Miami, and that he's this goliath getting in the way of all his teammate's success. This is untrue, you can argue about fit and portability/scalability, but to argue that Lebron just got his way in Miami with no regard for his teammates is completely wrong.

His impact stats all went down in Miami compared to Cleveland and so did most of his counting stats. He changed his game, in terms of shooting, post-up play, playing off-ball more, and playing as a small-ball 4. You can argue he was less portable than MJ but don't pretend Lebron was just unilaterally forcing his team to adapt without any changes of his own.

And in both Miami and 2nd-stint Cleveland, the way the rosters were constructed fundamentally meant that numbers were going to go down. You can't have 3 primary scorers on one team and expect their numbers to be the same. There is only 1 basketball. KD and Curry's scoring both went down significantly and they are like the picture-perfect "portable" superstars. It's just a basic law of how basketball works.

And the fact that Wade and Lebron, especially with Wade's decline, had as much success fitting as poorly as they did together should be a positive mark on Lebron's portability resume, not a negative. And as others have said, Bosh and Love were arguably more impactful in their roles as champions than they were piloting 8th seeds lmao. One final quick note to this point, impact isn't a 1-to-1 equation, boosting a team from 25 to 40 wins is not the same as boosting them from 40-55.

[capfan33]

Probably because your “great lengths” have not been separated from logical changes in offensive primacy or style. As has been explained in much greater length, without much from you in response.

Chris Bosh became a better player in Miami. He “sacrificed” his way into becoming more well-rounded offensively and defensively. Wade could not do the same, but you have done nothing to show why that should reflect more on Lebron than on Wade’s own limitations, or how the same would not be true next to Jordan. You have criticised Lebron for Kevin Love’s ineffectiveness without Lebron — without backing up any claims with real data — while simultaneously trying to hold up Kevin Love as a superstar player in general.

All Jordan has ever really been asked to do is stick to his strengths. Lebron has been forced to adapt constantly and add new strengths to accommodate teammates. Yet you continually treat this as an advantage for Jordan and a disadvantage for Lebron.

How many strengths did Lebron add? He was already a 27 7 7 guy since his 2nd year in the league.

If your trying to evaluate Lebron's skillset and impact from points, rebounds and assists there's nothing else to discuss here lol. By that logic, he's been essentially the same player since 2005.

[Stalwart]

Couple of general observations I have regarding this thread which has once again devolved into Jordan v Lebron for the umpteenth time lol:

1. Yes the league is better today than in MJs era or any other period. It's just common sense and basic logic. Ignoring subjective statements like "look at all the great players in the 90s, of course, it was better than today," which anyone can make about any era.

The major factors that I would say constitute league strength are talent pool, the economic value generated by a sport, divided by the number of teams/players. Using this, the league is inarguably stronger today than it ever has been. Basketball is more globalized, popular, and generates more revenue than it ever has, and the number of NBA teams/players has basically been stagnant for 25 years. The last 3 MVPs make this trend blatantly obvious. The game has gotten more and more specialized, competitive and advanced in terms of tactics and strategy. This is just objectively true.

This doesn't mean Lebron is better than MJ, that MJ would suck today, whatever, but in the most basic sense, the league is better today than it ever has been. If the NBA adds 4 teams next year then we can start arguing about league strength.

2. There seems to be this idea that Lebron has never had to adapt, specifically in Miami, and that he's this goliath getting in the way of all his teammate's success. This is untrue, you can argue about fit and portability/scalability, but to argue that Lebron just got his way in Miami with no regard for his teammates is completely wrong.

His impact stats all went down in Miami compared to Cleveland and so did most of his counting stats. He changed his game, in terms of shooting, post-up play, playing off-ball more, and playing as a small-ball 4. You can argue he was less portable than MJ but don't pretend Lebron was just unilaterally forcing his team to adapt without any changes of his own.

And in both Miami and 2nd-stint Cleveland, the way the rosters were constructed fundamentally meant that numbers were going to go down. You can't have 3 primary scorers on one team and expect their numbers to be the same. There is only 1 basketball. KD and Curry's scoring both went down significantly and they are like the picture-perfect "portable" superstars. It's just a basic law of how basketball works.

And the fact that Wade and Lebron, especially with Wade's decline, had as much success fitting as poorly as they did together should be a positive mark on Lebron's portability resume, not a negative. And as others have said, Bosh and Love were arguably more impactful in their roles as champions than they were piloting 8th seeds lmao. One final quick note to this point, impact isn't a 1-to-1 equation, boosting a team from 25 to 40 wins is not the same as boosting them from 40-55.

One thing you've failed to observe is that Im mot talking about PPG dropping or getting less shot attempts. Like what is wrong with you guys. How many times do I have to repeat this.

[AEnigma]

Probably because your “great lengths” have not been separated from logical changes in offensive primacy or style. As has been explained in much greater length, without much from you in response.

Chris Bosh became a better player in Miami. He “sacrificed” his way into becoming more well-rounded offensively and defensively. Wade could not do the same, but you have done nothing to show why that should reflect more on Lebron than on Wade’s own limitations, or how the same would not be true next to Jordan. You have criticised Lebron for Kevin Love’s ineffectiveness without Lebron — without backing up any claims with real data — while simultaneously trying to hold up Kevin Love as a superstar player in general.

All Jordan has ever really been asked to do is stick to his strengths. Lebron has been forced to adapt constantly and add new strengths to accommodate teammates. Yet you continually treat this as an advantage for Jordan and a disadvantage for Lebron.

Uh..it was Lebron who cost the Heat the 2011 NBA Championship because he was "uncomfortable". It was Wade who pulled back his game for Lebron.

Yes. Do you feel Wade would have not needed to pull back next to Jordan? Why not? In this context, what do you think “pulling back” means in a way distinct from offensive load? Seeing as you insist that is not what you mean.

And its Lebron fans who have criticized Bosh and Love when they claim Lebron had no help.

Where was that claimed.

If only Lebron had a true superstar PF like Horace Grant

Where was Grant called that.

he would have won more titles they say.

This is more in reference to Love, and in reference to Love, do you understand how a team can change out an offensive “star” and become better?

Yet they won't address how Love and Bosh were forced to reinvent themselves as basketball players and never given a consistent role in the offense.

Both have these have been addressed repeatedly, you just reject or otherwise the data and thought processes behind those responses.

So which is it.

They were asked to scale back their scoring with Lebron and improve their defence and ability to play within a system in which they were no longer the primary option. Bosh did this well. Love struggled to improve his defence and to maintain his outlier 2014 level of play when Lebron was off the court.

Did Lebron have two superstar power forwards who adapted and became even better basketball players.

Bosh did, Love did not. The superstar label being used here is either irrelevant in a third option role or inaccurate to what either were as players.

Or did Lebron need more help from all time greats like Horace Grant and John Paxson? I'm just trying to figure this out.

Where was this claimed. Lebron could have used better defensive support than Love from 2015-18, but the biggest issue was running into the Warriors — a substantially better team than any Jordan faced outside of his brief encounter with the 1986 Celtics. He could have used better team fit, depth, and scheming in 2011, but most acknowledge that he needed to adjust his game and that the Finals proved to him why (although the way you tell it, Lebron never changed and in fact it was everyone else ). He could have used better overall team fit, health, and uh aging in 2014, but again the bigger issue was running into an all-time postseason squad beyond pretty much any Jordan encountered.

Please let me know if you ever become interested in good faith, non-hagiographic analysis of the sport.

[AEnigma]

Couple of general observations I have regarding this thread which has once again devolved into Jordan v Lebron for the umpteenth time lol:

1. Yes the league is better today than in MJs era or any other period. It's just common sense and basic logic. Ignoring subjective statements like "look at all the great players in the 90s, of course, it was better than today," which anyone can make about any era.

The major factors that I would say constitute league strength are talent pool, the economic value generated by a sport, divided by the number of teams/players. Using this, the league is inarguably stronger today than it ever has been. Basketball is more globalized, popular, and generates more revenue than it ever has, and the number of NBA teams/players has basically been stagnant for 25 years. The last 3 MVPs make this trend blatantly obvious. The game has gotten more and more specialized, competitive and advanced in terms of tactics and strategy. This is just objectively true.

This doesn't mean Lebron is better than MJ, that MJ would suck today, whatever, but in the most basic sense, the league is better today than it ever has been. If the NBA adds 4 teams next year then we can start arguing about league strength.

2. There seems to be this idea that Lebron has never had to adapt, specifically in Miami, and that he's this goliath getting in the way of all his teammate's success. This is untrue, you can argue about fit and portability/scalability, but to argue that Lebron just got his way in Miami with no regard for his teammates is completely wrong.

His impact stats all went down in Miami compared to Cleveland and so did most of his counting stats. He changed his game, in terms of shooting, post-up play, playing off-ball more, and playing as a small-ball 4. You can argue he was less portable than MJ but don't pretend Lebron was just unilaterally forcing his team to adapt without any changes of his own.

And in both Miami and 2nd-stint Cleveland, the way the rosters were constructed fundamentally meant that numbers were going to go down. You can't have 3 primary scorers on one team and expect their numbers to be the same. There is only 1 basketball. KD and Curry's scoring both went down significantly and they are like the picture-perfect "portable" superstars. It's just a basic law of how basketball works.

And the fact that Wade and Lebron, especially with Wade's decline, had as much success fitting as poorly as they did together should be a positive mark on Lebron's portability resume, not a negative. And as others have said, Bosh and Love were arguably more impactful in their roles as champions than they were piloting 8th seeds lmao. One final quick note to this point, impact isn't a 1-to-1 equation, boosting a team from 25 to 40 wins is not the same as boosting them from 40-55.

One thing you've failed to observe is that Im mot talking about PPG dropping or getting less shot attempts. Like what is wrong with you guys. How many times do I have to repeat this.

Repetition means nothing without practice. It will stop being said once you start using actual evidence to showcase your claimed non-scoring criticisms. Thus far, looks mostly like narrativising, with some added mourning for Bosh being asked to shoot and defend better.

[Stalwart]

Couple of general observations I have regarding this thread which has once again devolved into Jordan v Lebron for the umpteenth time lol:

1. Yes the league is better today than in MJs era or any other period. It's just common sense and basic logic. Ignoring subjective statements like "look at all the great players in the 90s, of course, it was better than today," which anyone can make about any era.

The major factors that I would say constitute league strength are talent pool, the economic value generated by a sport, divided by the number of teams/players. Using this, the league is inarguably stronger today than it ever has been. Basketball is more globalized, popular, and generates more revenue than it ever has, and the number of NBA teams/players has basically been stagnant for 25 years. The last 3 MVPs make this trend blatantly obvious. The game has gotten more and more specialized, competitive and advanced in terms of tactics and strategy. This is just objectively true.

This doesn't mean Lebron is better than MJ, that MJ would suck today, whatever, but in the most basic sense, the league is better today than it ever has been. If the NBA adds 4 teams next year then we can start arguing about league strength.

2. There seems to be this idea that Lebron has never had to adapt, specifically in Miami, and that he's this goliath getting in the way of all his teammate's success. This is untrue, you can argue about fit and portability/scalability, but to argue that Lebron just got his way in Miami with no regard for his teammates is completely wrong.

His impact stats all went down in Miami compared to Cleveland and so did most of his counting stats. He changed his game, in terms of shooting, post-up play, playing off-ball more, and playing as a small-ball 4. You can argue he was less portable than MJ but don't pretend Lebron was just unilaterally forcing his team to adapt without any changes of his own.

And in both Miami and 2nd-stint Cleveland, the way the rosters were constructed fundamentally meant that numbers were going to go down. You can't have 3 primary scorers on one team and expect their numbers to be the same. There is only 1 basketball. KD and Curry's scoring both went down significantly and they are like the picture-perfect "portable" superstars. It's just a basic law of how basketball works.

And the fact that Wade and Lebron, especially with Wade's decline, had as much success fitting as poorly as they did together should be a positive mark on Lebron's portability resume, not a negative. And as others have said, Bosh and Love were arguably more impactful in their roles as champions than they were piloting 8th seeds lmao. One final quick note to this point, impact isn't a 1-to-1 equation, boosting a team from 25 to 40 wins is not the same as boosting them from 40-55.

One thing you've failed to observe is that Im mot talking about PPG dropping or getting less shot attempts. Like what is wrong with you guys. How many times do I have to repeat this.

Repetition means nothing without practice. It will stop being said once you start using actual evidence to showcase your actual non-scoring criticisms. Thus far, looks mostly like narrativising, with some added mourning for Bosh being asked to shoot and defend better.

I gave you Bosh and Wades own statements explaining how they had to 'reinvent', 'morph', and 'pull back"theor games in order to complement Lebron. There is no debate here.

[AEnigma]

Which were all responded to, and you ignored those responses, because you have no real argument here outside of narrative gestures.

[capfan33]

Couple of general observations I have regarding this thread which has once again devolved into Jordan v Lebron for the umpteenth time lol:

1. Yes the league is better today than in MJs era or any other period. It's just common sense and basic logic. Ignoring subjective statements like "look at all the great players in the 90s, of course, it was better than today," which anyone can make about any era.

The major factors that I would say constitute league strength are talent pool, the economic value generated by a sport, divided by the number of teams/players. Using this, the league is inarguably stronger today than it ever has been. Basketball is more globalized, popular, and generates more revenue than it ever has, and the number of NBA teams/players has basically been stagnant for 25 years. The last 3 MVPs make this trend blatantly obvious. The game has gotten more and more specialized, competitive and advanced in terms of tactics and strategy. This is just objectively true.

This doesn't mean Lebron is better than MJ, that MJ would suck today, whatever, but in the most basic sense, the league is better today than it ever has been. If the NBA adds 4 teams next year then we can start arguing about league strength.

2. There seems to be this idea that Lebron has never had to adapt, specifically in Miami, and that he's this goliath getting in the way of all his teammate's success. This is untrue, you can argue about fit and portability/scalability, but to argue that Lebron just got his way in Miami with no regard for his teammates is completely wrong.

His impact stats all went down in Miami compared to Cleveland and so did most of his counting stats. He changed his game, in terms of shooting, post-up play, playing off-ball more, and playing as a small-ball 4. You can argue he was less portable than MJ but don't pretend Lebron was just unilaterally forcing his team to adapt without any changes of his own.

And in both Miami and 2nd-stint Cleveland, the way the rosters were constructed fundamentally meant that numbers were going to go down. You can't have 3 primary scorers on one team and expect their numbers to be the same. There is only 1 basketball. KD and Curry's scoring both went down significantly and they are like the picture-perfect "portable" superstars. It's just a basic law of how basketball works.

And the fact that Wade and Lebron, especially with Wade's decline, had as much success fitting as poorly as they did together should be a positive mark on Lebron's portability resume, not a negative. And as others have said, Bosh and Love were arguably more impactful in their roles as champions than they were piloting 8th seeds lmao. One final quick note to this point, impact isn't a 1-to-1 equation, boosting a team from 25 to 40 wins is not the same as boosting them from 40-55.

One thing you've failed to observe is that Im mot talking about PPG dropping or getting less shot attempts. Like what is wrong with you guys. How many times do I have to repeat this.

Well, I said general observations for a reason. These weren't targeted at any one person and I never said all my arguments are relevant to just one person. Also, I included the last paragraph as well to address the more general impact argument.

And to expand on the impact part specifically, the argument is pretty much the same. You can't have 3 guys who are used to being option 1a on offense join together and not have some serious changes. With the exception of pure shooters who basically only play off-ball (Reggie Miller, Klay), there are going to be redundancies. That's not the fault of the players, that's just the nature of building a roster like that (which I generally disagree with).

Even with that, Love in his diminished role "handicapped" by Lebron played a major role in the GOAT playoff offenses. If you're arguing that's a bad thing, go ahead.

Bosh became one of the most versatile defenders in the NBA and made the Heat's unique trapping scheme work in a way that very few other players could have, which was a huge part of them winning 2 titles. I fail to see how that's worse than putting up 24PPG on an 8th seed. Moreover, in his case especially I'm not sure he lost much in the way of opportunities to show his skillset other than post-ups (which are good for like 10 players in the NBA anyways) or shooting face-up midrange jumpers lol.

Lots of guys can put up numbers on mediocre teams, contributing to championship-level teams is a lot rarer and more meaningful. And both Love and Bosh did that, despite the fact that in Love's case specifically, I don't think he was a great choice as a 3rd option. I still fail to see the issue.

[Stalwart]

Actually they were brushed off and ignored. "Oh Bosh just had to become a better player. Lebron had to adapt too".

None of you have addressed the point that Bosh and Love was a) forced to play away from his strengths, b) had reinvent and morph, not 'adapt', c) never given a consistent role in the offense. And you've never acknowledged how forcing a player to morph his entire game might neutralize his superstar talent and ability to help.

And I bet you still won't address those points.

[falcolombardi]

Probably because your “great lengths” have not been separated from logical changes in offensive primacy or style. As has been explained in much greater length, without much from you in response.

Chris Bosh became a better player in Miami. He “sacrificed” his way into becoming more well-rounded offensively and defensively. Wade could not do the same, but you have done nothing to show why that should reflect more on Lebron than on Wade’s own limitations, or how the same would not be true next to Jordan. You have criticised Lebron for Kevin Love’s ineffectiveness without Lebron — without backing up any claims with real data — while simultaneously trying to hold up Kevin Love as a superstar player in general.

CAll Jordan has ever really been asked to do is stick to his strengths. Lebron has been forced to adapt constantly and add new strengths to accommodate teammates. Yet you continually treat this as an advantage for Jordan and a disadvantage for Lebron.

How many strengths did Lebron add? He was already a 27 7 7 guy since his 2nd year in the league.

Too many to count