'17-'18 POY discussion

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Re: '17-'18 POY discussion 

Post#4821 » by mihail_petkov » Wed Jun 13, 2018 5:57 pm

ztejas wrote:I have to make a case for Kevin Durant being one of the 5 best players in the league this season?

He had the 5th highest TS% in NBA History for a 25/5/5 season.

He's the 5th player in NBA history to qualify for leading in 3P% with 1.7+ blocks per game, and had the most blocks per game of any 40%+ 3P shooter in NBA history.

He had the 3rd most efficient 600 point playoff run in league history, behind '84 Larry Bird and '18 LeBron.

He outplayed Davis in their playoff matchup and was at least as good as Harden in theirs, despite a couple of poor showings, and was 5-1 in playoff games without Curry on the floor.

He averaged 28.8/10.8/7.5 in the Finals on absolutely off the charts splits of .526/.409/.963 and remains the only player in the league where, when playing against LeBron, LeBron sometimes isn't the best player on the floor. (he outplayed LeBron on Christmas sans Curry and outplayed him in game 3 effectively sans Curry)

It's fine if you don't like the man, but considering him as less than the 5th best player in the world is insane

Durant was awful during the RS. Really don't see a case for top 5, maybe even top 10 during the RS.
During the playoffs Durant was better but he had good matchups. In the one when he didn't have good matchup, he didn't perform well and almost lost the series for the Warriors with his iso and bad playmaking, helping the Rockets to shut the passing lanes to Curry/Klay easily.

P.S. I don't say he is not top 5, but I can' see why people put him outside of their top 5. His impact is just not that huge.
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Re: '17-'18 POY discussion 

Post#4822 » by ShotCreator » Wed Jun 13, 2018 5:58 pm

OPOY:
Harden
LeBron
Curry
Paul
Jokic

HM:, Westbrook, Durant, Lowry, Lillard.




DPOY:
Gobert
Embiid
Draymond(Peaked second-highest in the entire season during the PS though).
Covington
Davis

HM: Whiteside, Roberson, Giannis.
Swinging for the fences.
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Re: '17-'18 POY discussion 

Post#4823 » by ztejas » Wed Jun 13, 2018 6:07 pm

Durant was awful during the RS. Really don't see a case for top 5, maybe even top 10 during the RS.
During the playoffs Durant was better but he had good matchups. In the one when he didn't have good matchup, he didn't perform well and almost lost the series for the Warriors with his iso and bad playmaking, helping the Rockets to shut the passing lanes to Curry/Klay easily.

P.S. I don't say he is not top 5, but I can' see why people put him outside of their top 5. His impact is just not that huge.


Media awards aren't perfect, but you don't make first-team all NBA by being awful during the regular season. As for the Rockets series, they do not win that series without Durant. Curry was extremely inconsistent in that series so placing the blame for it going 7 on Durant's shoulders is turning him into a scapegoat that he doesn't deserve to be.

His Finals numbers on their own should be enough to put him in any top 5 ranking.
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Re: '17-'18 POY discussion 

Post#4824 » by Joey Wheeler » Wed Jun 13, 2018 6:08 pm

Got to agree with some posts in the previous page, hard to justify keeping Durant out of the top 5, especially in favor of someone like Oladipo. It wasn't like last year, where GSW were running riot through the entire playoffs and blowing out everyone, this year Durant carried them for significant stretches - almost singlehandedly winning game 1 in Houston (which turned out to be decisive) and game 3 in Cleveland.

ztejas wrote:I have to make a case for Kevin Durant being one of the 5 best players in the league this season?

He had the 5th highest TS% in NBA History for a 25/5/5 season.

He's the 5th player in NBA history to qualify for leading in 3P% with 1.7+ blocks per game, and had the most blocks per game of any 40%+ 3P shooter in NBA history.

He had the 3rd most efficient 600 point playoff run in league history, behind '84 Larry Bird and '18 LeBron.

He outplayed Davis in their playoff matchup and was at least as good as Harden in theirs, despite a couple of poor showings, and was 5-1 in playoff games without Curry on the floor.

He averaged 28.8/10.8/7.5 in the Finals on absolutely off the charts splits of .526/.409/.963 and remains the only player in the league where, when playing against LeBron, LeBron sometimes isn't the best player on the floor. (he outplayed LeBron on Christmas sans Curry and outplayed him in game 3 effectively sans Curry)

It's fine if you don't like the man, but considering him as less than the 5th best player in the world is insane


He also had the second most efficient Finals ever for a player averaging 28+ behind... Durant in 2017 and just slightly ahead of Durant 2012 in 3rd place.
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Re: '17-'18 POY discussion 

Post#4825 » by Missing Rings » Wed Jun 13, 2018 6:09 pm

ztejas wrote:I have to make a case for Kevin Durant being one of the 5 best players in the league this season?

He had the 5th highest TS% in NBA History for a 25/5/5 season.

He's the 5th player in NBA history to qualify for leading in 3P% with 1.7+ blocks per game, and had the most blocks per game of any 40%+ 3P shooter in NBA history.

He had the 3rd most efficient 600 point playoff run in league history, behind '84 Larry Bird and '18 LeBron.

He outplayed Davis in their playoff matchup and was at least as good as Harden in theirs, despite a couple of poor showings, and was 5-1 in playoff games without Curry on the floor.

He averaged 28.8/10.8/7.5 in the Finals on absolutely off the charts splits of .526/.409/.963 and remains the only player in the league where, when playing against LeBron, LeBron sometimes isn't the best player on the floor. (he outplayed LeBron on Christmas sans Curry and outplayed him in game 3 effectively sans Curry)

It's fine if you don't like the man, but considering him as less than the 5th best player in the world is insane


Sure, he had a good resume, but so did many other players. What's Durant's argument over a player like Anthony Davis, Giannis Antetokounmpo, Chris Paul, Stephen Curry, and Victor Oladipo.

It is easy to sit here and list of a laundry list of statistical accomplishment but no where in your post are you comparing him to another player. You are posting on the Player Comparison Board; making comparisons between two or more players should be at the root of the discussion.
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Re: '17-'18 POY discussion 

Post#4826 » by clyde21 » Wed Jun 13, 2018 6:13 pm

ztejas wrote:I have to make a case for Kevin Durant being one of the 5 best players in the league this season?

He had the 5th highest TS% in NBA History for a 25/5/5 season.

He's the 5th player in NBA history to qualify for leading in 3P% with 1.7+ blocks per game, and had the most blocks per game of any 40%+ 3P shooter in NBA history.

He had the 3rd most efficient 600 point playoff run in league history, behind '84 Larry Bird and '18 LeBron.

He outplayed Davis in their playoff matchup and was at least as good as Harden in theirs, despite a couple of poor showings, and was 5-1 in playoff games without Curry on the floor.

He averaged 28.8/10.8/7.5 in the Finals on absolutely off the charts splits of .526/.409/.963 and remains the only player in the league where, when playing against LeBron, LeBron sometimes isn't the best player on the floor. (he outplayed LeBron on Christmas sans Curry and outplayed him in game 3 effectively sans Curry)

It's fine if you don't like the man, but considering him as less than the 5th best player in the world is insane


I think everyone has him as a top 3 player in the world. That's different than POY this season. He and Steph both get an honorable mention from me.
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Re: '17-'18 POY discussion 

Post#4827 » by dhsilv2 » Wed Jun 13, 2018 6:22 pm

ztejas wrote:
Durant was awful during the RS. Really don't see a case for top 5, maybe even top 10 during the RS.
During the playoffs Durant was better but he had good matchups. In the one when he didn't have good matchup, he didn't perform well and almost lost the series for the Warriors with his iso and bad playmaking, helping the Rockets to shut the passing lanes to Curry/Klay easily.

P.S. I don't say he is not top 5, but I can' see why people put him outside of their top 5. His impact is just not that huge.


Media awards aren't perfect, but you don't make first-team all NBA by being awful during the regular season. As for the Rockets series, they do not win that series without Durant. Curry was extremely inconsistent in that series so placing the blame for it going 7 on Durant's shoulders is turning him into a scapegoat that he doesn't deserve to be.

His Finals numbers on their own should be enough to put him in any top 5 ranking.


Why would I place value on the finals, a series that was never going to go more than 5 games and the warriors were expected to win rather easily?
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Re: '17-'18 POY discussion 

Post#4828 » by Joey Wheeler » Wed Jun 13, 2018 6:30 pm

dhsilv2 wrote:
ztejas wrote:
Durant was awful during the RS. Really don't see a case for top 5, maybe even top 10 during the RS.
During the playoffs Durant was better but he had good matchups. In the one when he didn't have good matchup, he didn't perform well and almost lost the series for the Warriors with his iso and bad playmaking, helping the Rockets to shut the passing lanes to Curry/Klay easily.

P.S. I don't say he is not top 5, but I can' see why people put him outside of their top 5. His impact is just not that huge.


Media awards aren't perfect, but you don't make first-team all NBA by being awful during the regular season. As for the Rockets series, they do not win that series without Durant. Curry was extremely inconsistent in that series so placing the blame for it going 7 on Durant's shoulders is turning him into a scapegoat that he doesn't deserve to be.

His Finals numbers on their own should be enough to put him in any top 5 ranking.


Why would I place value on the finals, a series that was never going to go more than 5 games and the warriors were expected to win rather easily?


Well, for starters it wasn't going past 5 games because of Kevin Durant. Without him on the Warriors, the series would most definitely have gone past 5 games... or rather it'd not have even happened because sans-KD Warriors might not even get past the Spurs in R1 with Curry out too and certainly not past the Pelicans in R2.
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Re: '17-'18 POY discussion 

Post#4829 » by Outside » Wed Jun 13, 2018 6:33 pm

Joey Wheeler wrote:Got to agree with some posts in the previous page, hard to justify keeping Durant out of the top 5, especially in favor of someone like Oladipo. It wasn't like last year, where GSW were running riot through the entire playoffs and blowing out everyone, this year Durant carried them for significant stretches - almost singlehandedly winning game 1 in Houston (which turned out to be decisive) and game 3 in Cleveland.

Just want to comment on the part I bolded above.

Game 1 vs Houston was a complete team victory. The Warriors showed themselves to be superior on both sides of the ball, and they did it using the synergistic team play they've become known for. It was not Durant carrying them single-handedly. You can say that about game 3 vs the Cavs, but not game 1 vs Houston.

In game 1 vs Houston, Durant had 37 points but only 3 rebounds, 1 assist, 1 block, and zero steals. Klay was 9-18 on FGs for 28 points plus 4 rebounds, 2 assists, and 2 steals, and Curry was 8-15 for 18 points, plus 6 rebounds, 8 assists, 2 steals, and a block. Draymond had only 5 points but added 9 rebounds, 9 assists, 2 steals, and 2 blocks. No one on the Warriors had a negative plus-minus, and Durant had only the third best (Draymond with his unimpressive scoring was team-high in that category). That was a team win.

The other point is that I don't see how you can call that game 1 win decisive. The series went 7 games, so I suppose any one win for the Warriors could be considered decisive, but that one doesn't qualify.
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Re: '17-'18 POY discussion 

Post#4830 » by Joey Wheeler » Wed Jun 13, 2018 6:41 pm

Outside wrote:
Joey Wheeler wrote:Got to agree with some posts in the previous page, hard to justify keeping Durant out of the top 5, especially in favor of someone like Oladipo. It wasn't like last year, where GSW were running riot through the entire playoffs and blowing out everyone, this year Durant carried them for significant stretches - almost singlehandedly winning game 1 in Houston (which turned out to be decisive) and game 3 in Cleveland.

Just want to comment on the part I bolded above.

Game 1 vs Houston was a complete team victory. The Warriors showed themselves to be superior on both sides of the ball, and they did it using the synergistic team play they've become known for. It was not Durant carrying them single-handedly. You can say that about game 3 vs the Cavs, but not game 1 vs Houston.

In game 1 vs Houston, Durant had 37 points but only three rebounds, one assist, one block, and zero steals. Klay was 9-18 on FGs for 28 points plus 4 rebounds, 2 assists, and 2 steals, and Curry was 8-15 for 18 points, plus 6 rebounds, 8 assists, 2 steals, and a block. Draymond had only 5 points but added 9 rebounds, 9 assists, 2 steals, and 2 blocks. No one on the Warriors had a negative plus-minus, and Durant had only the third best (Draymond with his unimpressive scoring was team-high in that category). That was a team win.

The other point is that I don't see how you can call that game 1 win decisive. The series went 7 games, so I suppose any one win for the Warriors could be considered decisive, but that one doesn't qualify.


Maybe the wording was too strong but he was clearly their best player in that match and GSW would not have won it without his hyperefficient ISO scoring.

Well yeah, but that one stands out because it was (1) on the road (2) not a complete blowout and (3) a match they'd have lost without him. It's hard to credit one player too much in 30+ point blowouts.
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Re: '17-'18 POY discussion 

Post#4831 » by Outside » Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:13 pm

Joey Wheeler wrote:
Outside wrote:
Joey Wheeler wrote:Got to agree with some posts in the previous page, hard to justify keeping Durant out of the top 5, especially in favor of someone like Oladipo. It wasn't like last year, where GSW were running riot through the entire playoffs and blowing out everyone, this year Durant carried them for significant stretches - almost singlehandedly winning game 1 in Houston (which turned out to be decisive) and game 3 in Cleveland.

Just want to comment on the part I bolded above.

Game 1 vs Houston was a complete team victory. The Warriors showed themselves to be superior on both sides of the ball, and they did it using the synergistic team play they've become known for. It was not Durant carrying them single-handedly. You can say that about game 3 vs the Cavs, but not game 1 vs Houston.

In game 1 vs Houston, Durant had 37 points but only three rebounds, one assist, one block, and zero steals. Klay was 9-18 on FGs for 28 points plus 4 rebounds, 2 assists, and 2 steals, and Curry was 8-15 for 18 points, plus 6 rebounds, 8 assists, 2 steals, and a block. Draymond had only 5 points but added 9 rebounds, 9 assists, 2 steals, and 2 blocks. No one on the Warriors had a negative plus-minus, and Durant had only the third best (Draymond with his unimpressive scoring was team-high in that category). That was a team win.

The other point is that I don't see how you can call that game 1 win decisive. The series went 7 games, so I suppose any one win for the Warriors could be considered decisive, but that one doesn't qualify.


Maybe the wording was too strong but he was clearly their best player in that match and GSW would not have won it without his hyperefficient ISO scoring.

Well yeah, but that one stands out because it was (1) on the road (2) not a complete blowout and (3) a match they'd have lost without him. It's hard to credit one player too much in 30+ point blowouts.

I can't go down these "they never would've won without him" hypotheticals. You make it sound like they would take away his scoring in that game and replace it with nothing. That's not how it works. Remove Durant from that game and whoever gets his minutes almost certainly doesn't score as much, but the others would take up the slack.

Game 1 vs Houston was one of the Warriors' best performances of the season. They moved the ball and had excellent flow on offense, had only 9 turnovers, and found a nice balance between getting everyone involved (24 assists) and taking advantage of Durant in mismatches. Harden got his, Paul had a nice game, but they limited the damage from the others. They played with confidence that they were the better team. They walked onto that court with a mission to take home court advantage and show the Rockets who was the better team in what most people considered the de facto finals, and they did exactly that. They all did it, and they did it together.

That is completely different from game 3 in the finals, where Steph and Klay couldn't get it going, no one else could get it going, and they would've been sunk without Durant's scoring. In game 3 of the finals, the Warriors didn't lead at all until the third quarter, and then only by a few points, and trailed with three minutes to go. In game 1 vs Houston, the Warriors got the lead in the second quarter, were tied at the half, trailed for less than a minute to start the third, and pulled away steadily with one of their third-quarter runs to lead by 17 going into the fourth.

In the Cleveland game, Durant shot 65.2%, and Klay/Steph combined shot 25.9%. In the Houston game, Durant shot 51.9%, and Klay/Steph combined shot 51.5%. In the Cleveland game, Durant had 43 points, 13 rebounds, and 7 assists; in the Houston game, he had 37/3/1. They just aren't comparable.
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Re: '17-'18 POY discussion 

Post#4832 » by ztejas » Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:24 pm

Missing Rings wrote:
ztejas wrote:I have to make a case for Kevin Durant being one of the 5 best players in the league this season?

He had the 5th highest TS% in NBA History for a 25/5/5 season.

He's the 5th player in NBA history to qualify for leading in 3P% with 1.7+ blocks per game, and had the most blocks per game of any 40%+ 3P shooter in NBA history.

He had the 3rd most efficient 600 point playoff run in league history, behind '84 Larry Bird and '18 LeBron.

He outplayed Davis in their playoff matchup and was at least as good as Harden in theirs, despite a couple of poor showings, and was 5-1 in playoff games without Curry on the floor.

He averaged 28.8/10.8/7.5 in the Finals on absolutely off the charts splits of .526/.409/.963 and remains the only player in the league where, when playing against LeBron, LeBron sometimes isn't the best player on the floor. (he outplayed LeBron on Christmas sans Curry and outplayed him in game 3 effectively sans Curry)

It's fine if you don't like the man, but considering him as less than the 5th best player in the world is insane


Sure, he had a good resume, but so did many other players. What's Durant's argument over a player like Anthony Davis, Giannis Antetokounmpo, Chris Paul, Stephen Curry, and Victor Oladipo.

It is easy to sit here and list of a laundry list of statistical accomplishment but no where in your post are you comparing him to another player. You are posting on the Player Comparison Board; making comparisons between two or more players should be at the root of the discussion.


For starters, none of them won FMVP with all time Finals numbers. If Curry won FMVP people on here would be slotting him at #2 behind LeBron despite missing 30 games and not even playing in their first playoff series. You can weigh Golden State's success differently as it pertains to each player, but you cannot separate their leading scorer and win share getter from the championship they won.

Durant had another fantastic regular season on a 58 win team. His numbers were as good as Giannis, better than Oladipo and Paul's, and he played more games than Curry. He outplayed Davis in their playoff series and left little doubt that he was the more experienced playoff performer.

In my mind, he is the 2nd best player in the league and demonstrated that across 21 playoff games while facing intense media scrutiny and pressure to repeat as an NBA champion. He did not play flawlessly, but looking at the big picture he did everything that was expected of him and when they needed him most he delivered. He did not always score efficiently, but he did so more consistently than any player save LeBron. He did not always play defense at a high level, but he had stretches where he dominated the floor on both ends in a way that few players are capable of.

Was Durant capable of more? Did he leave us wanting at times? Yes. I wouldn't argue against that. But is what he gave us this season less impressive or less quieting of criticism than what 5 other players gave us? I don't think so. A list that read Jordan, Olajuwon, O'Neal, Bryant, James at the beginning of the season now reads Jordan, Olajuwon, O'Neal, Bryant, James, Durant.

He's 6th on that list, but I don't think he's 6th on this one. Certainty not behind Oladipo
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Re: '17-'18 POY discussion 

Post#4833 » by Joey Wheeler » Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:37 pm

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Re: '17-'18 POY discussion 

Post#4834 » by Joey Wheeler » Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:39 pm

Outside wrote:
Joey Wheeler wrote:
Outside wrote:Just want to comment on the part I bolded above.

Game 1 vs Houston was a complete team victory. The Warriors showed themselves to be superior on both sides of the ball, and they did it using the synergistic team play they've become known for. It was not Durant carrying them single-handedly. You can say that about game 3 vs the Cavs, but not game 1 vs Houston.

In game 1 vs Houston, Durant had 37 points but only three rebounds, one assist, one block, and zero steals. Klay was 9-18 on FGs for 28 points plus 4 rebounds, 2 assists, and 2 steals, and Curry was 8-15 for 18 points, plus 6 rebounds, 8 assists, 2 steals, and a block. Draymond had only 5 points but added 9 rebounds, 9 assists, 2 steals, and 2 blocks. No one on the Warriors had a negative plus-minus, and Durant had only the third best (Draymond with his unimpressive scoring was team-high in that category). That was a team win.

The other point is that I don't see how you can call that game 1 win decisive. The series went 7 games, so I suppose any one win for the Warriors could be considered decisive, but that one doesn't qualify.


Maybe the wording was too strong but he was clearly their best player in that match and GSW would not have won it without his hyperefficient ISO scoring.

Well yeah, but that one stands out because it was (1) on the road (2) not a complete blowout and (3) a match they'd have lost without him. It's hard to credit one player too much in 30+ point blowouts.

I can't go down these "they never would've won without him" hypotheticals. You make it sound like they would take away his scoring in that game and replace it with nothing. That's not how it works. Remove Durant from that game and whoever gets his minutes almost certainly doesn't score as much, but the others would take up the slack.

Game 1 vs Houston was one of the Warriors' best performances of the season. They moved the ball and had excellent flow on offense, had only 9 turnovers, and found a nice balance between getting everyone involved (24 assists) and taking advantage of Durant in mismatches. Harden got his, Paul had a nice game, but they limited the damage from the others. They played with confidence that they were the better team. They walked onto that court with a mission to take home court advantage and show the Rockets who was the better team in what most people considered the de facto finals, and they did exactly that. They all did it, and they did it together.

That is completely different from game 3 in the finals, where Steph and Klay couldn't get it going, no one else could get it going, and they would've been sunk without Durant's scoring. In game 3 of the finals, the Warriors didn't lead at all until the third quarter, and then only by a few points, and trailed with three minutes to go. In game 1 vs Houston, the Warriors got the lead in the second quarter, were tied at the half, trailed for less than a minute to start the third, and pulled away steadily with one of their third-quarter runs to lead by 17 going into the fourth.

In the Cleveland game, Durant shot 65.2%, and Klay/Steph combined shot 25.9%. In the Houston game, Durant shot 51.9%, and Klay/Steph combined shot 51.5%. In the Cleveland game, Durant had 43 points, 13 rebounds, and 7 assists; in the Houston game, he had 37/3/1. They just aren't comparable.


Alright I concede your point about game 1 in Houston. Let's change it to 'played a crucial role' in a the 7-game win over Houston being the team's leading scorer.

That said, can we agree it's unlikely they even get to WCF without Durant? With Curry sidelined, don't think GSW are any better than the Spurs without KD, would take Pop in that series. Don't think they beat the Pelicans either. It's not like 2017 where the Warriors only really needed KD in the Finals.

I don't see how you can justify KD out of the top 5; all the numbers and accolades seem to indicate he's top 5. Without him, the NBA champions might not even have got out of the first round. Historic Finals number is always an extra since it's the most important stage.
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Re: '17-'18 POY discussion 

Post#4835 » by dhsilv2 » Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:53 pm

Joey Wheeler wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:
ztejas wrote:
Media awards aren't perfect, but you don't make first-team all NBA by being awful during the regular season. As for the Rockets series, they do not win that series without Durant. Curry was extremely inconsistent in that series so placing the blame for it going 7 on Durant's shoulders is turning him into a scapegoat that he doesn't deserve to be.

His Finals numbers on their own should be enough to put him in any top 5 ranking.


Why would I place value on the finals, a series that was never going to go more than 5 games and the warriors were expected to win rather easily?


Well, for starters it wasn't going past 5 games because of Kevin Durant. Without him on the Warriors, the series would most definitely have gone past 5 games... or rather it'd not have even happened because sans-KD Warriors might not even get past the Spurs in R1 with Curry out too and certainly not past the Pelicans in R2.


If you drop the 15th best player in the NBA off a title winning team almost anytime in the history of the game, they'd not win the title. That doesn't mean I should look at one of their least competitive series to evaluate the player.
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Re: '17-'18 POY discussion 

Post#4836 » by Joey Wheeler » Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:23 pm

dhsilv2 wrote:
Joey Wheeler wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:
Why would I place value on the finals, a series that was never going to go more than 5 games and the warriors were expected to win rather easily?


Well, for starters it wasn't going past 5 games because of Kevin Durant. Without him on the Warriors, the series would most definitely have gone past 5 games... or rather it'd not have even happened because sans-KD Warriors might not even get past the Spurs in R1 with Curry out too and certainly not past the Pelicans in R2.


If you drop the 15th best player in the NBA off a title winning team almost anytime in the history of the game, they'd not win the title. That doesn't mean I should look at one of their least competitive series to evaluate the player.


We're not just talking about not winning the title, they could easily have lost in the first round to a mediocre Spurs team.

Even if you want to ignore the Finals for some reason, looking at the entire playoffs keeps supporting Durant as top 5, be it raw or advanced numbers, or just the eye test. Pretty sure he led the entire league in playoff plus/minus, if that had been Curry he'd be a lock to finish #2 in this vote...
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Re: '17-'18 POY discussion 

Post#4837 » by dhsilv2 » Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:28 pm

Joey Wheeler wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:
Joey Wheeler wrote:
Well, for starters it wasn't going past 5 games because of Kevin Durant. Without him on the Warriors, the series would most definitely have gone past 5 games... or rather it'd not have even happened because sans-KD Warriors might not even get past the Spurs in R1 with Curry out too and certainly not past the Pelicans in R2.


If you drop the 15th best player in the NBA off a title winning team almost anytime in the history of the game, they'd not win the title. That doesn't mean I should look at one of their least competitive series to evaluate the player.


We're not just talking about not winning the title, they could easily have lost in the first round to a mediocre Spurs team.

Even if you want to ignore the Finals for some reason, looking at the entire playoffs keeps supporting Durant as top 5, be it raw or advanced numbers, or just the eye test. Pretty sure he led the entire league in playoff plus/minus, if that had been Curry he'd be a lock to finish #2 in this vote...


Curry was night and day better than KD in the regular season. Again, PLAYER OF THE YEAR. KD has a nice playoffs, but it wasn's such that I feel a need to move him over players who were far better in the regular season. In the rockets series I'd firmly contend that Draymond was the best warrior.
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Re: '17-'18 POY discussion 

Post#4838 » by ztejas » Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:56 pm

dhsilv2 wrote:
Joey Wheeler wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:
If you drop the 15th best player in the NBA off a title winning team almost anytime in the history of the game, they'd not win the title. That doesn't mean I should look at one of their least competitive series to evaluate the player.


We're not just talking about not winning the title, they could easily have lost in the first round to a mediocre Spurs team.

Even if you want to ignore the Finals for some reason, looking at the entire playoffs keeps supporting Durant as top 5, be it raw or advanced numbers, or just the eye test. Pretty sure he led the entire league in playoff plus/minus, if that had been Curry he'd be a lock to finish #2 in this vote...


Curry was night and day better than KD in the regular season. Again, PLAYER OF THE YEAR. KD has a nice playoffs, but it wasn's such that I feel a need to move him over players who were far better in the regular season. In the rockets series I'd firmly contend that Draymond was the best warrior.


By what metric was Curry "night and day" better than Durant in the regular season? He only played 51 games.

The only players that were objectively better than Durant in the regular season were James, Harden and Davis. The only playeR that was better in the playoffs was James.

"Nice" playoffs is a funny way of qualifying one of the greatest playoff scoring runs in NBA history, and he tacked on 8 boards and 4 dimes a night for good measure. His WS/48 and BPM were better in the playoffs.

I mean, are you looking at Durant's numbers on the season in a larger context or are you just assuming they're not as good as they actually are and taking them for granted?
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Re: '17-'18 POY discussion 

Post#4839 » by dhsilv2 » Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:06 pm

ztejas wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:
Joey Wheeler wrote:
We're not just talking about not winning the title, they could easily have lost in the first round to a mediocre Spurs team.

Even if you want to ignore the Finals for some reason, looking at the entire playoffs keeps supporting Durant as top 5, be it raw or advanced numbers, or just the eye test. Pretty sure he led the entire league in playoff plus/minus, if that had been Curry he'd be a lock to finish #2 in this vote...


Curry was night and day better than KD in the regular season. Again, PLAYER OF THE YEAR. KD has a nice playoffs, but it wasn's such that I feel a need to move him over players who were far better in the regular season. In the rockets series I'd firmly contend that Draymond was the best warrior.


By what metric was Curry "night and day" better than Durant in the regular season? He only played 51 games.

The only players that were objectively better than Durant in the regular season were James, Harden and Davis. The only playeR that was better in the playoffs was James.

"Nice" playoffs is a funny way of qualifying one of the greatest playoff scoring runs in NBA history, and he tacked on 8 boards and 4 dimes a night for good measure. His WS/48 and BPM were better in the playoffs.

I mean, are you looking at Durant's numbers on the season in a larger context or are you just assuming they're not as good as they actually are and taking them for granted?


Well the default stat we all look at is RPM to get a feel for the player. He was 24th. He played 68 games so while he played more than curry, he wasn't an iron man. WINS from RPM gets KD to 22nd so even if we adjust for minutes and get out some lower minute guys, no reason to think KD was a top 10 guy yet. Moving to box score metrics to see where KD sits. He's 12th and essentially tied with Dipo in VORP. He makes it to 9th in WS. 10th in WS/48 once we clear out some noise. 12th in BPM.

I see zero reason to think KD was a top 5 regular season player. I don't see a reason to move him over Ben Simmons for regular season play only. Sure I agree that his playoffs were worth upgrading that status but you're asking me to move him up a lot here. Not just a few places.
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Re: '17-'18 POY discussion 

Post#4840 » by ztejas » Wed Jun 13, 2018 10:26 pm

dhsilv2 wrote:
ztejas wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:
Curry was night and day better than KD in the regular season. Again, PLAYER OF THE YEAR. KD has a nice playoffs, but it wasn's such that I feel a need to move him over players who were far better in the regular season. In the rockets series I'd firmly contend that Draymond was the best warrior.


By what metric was Curry "night and day" better than Durant in the regular season? He only played 51 games.

The only players that were objectively better than Durant in the regular season were James, Harden and Davis. The only playeR that was better in the playoffs was James.

"Nice" playoffs is a funny way of qualifying one of the greatest playoff scoring runs in NBA history, and he tacked on 8 boards and 4 dimes a night for good measure. His WS/48 and BPM were better in the playoffs.

I mean, are you looking at Durant's numbers on the season in a larger context or are you just assuming they're not as good as they actually are and taking them for granted?


Well the default stat we all look at is RPM to get a feel for the player. He was 24th. He played 68 games so while he played more than curry, he wasn't an iron man. WINS from RPM gets KD to 22nd so even if we adjust for minutes and get out some lower minute guys, no reason to think KD was a top 10 guy yet. Moving to box score metrics to see where KD sits. He's 12th and essentially tied with Dipo in VORP. He makes it to 9th in WS. 10th in WS/48 once we clear out some noise. 12th in BPM.

I see zero reason to think KD was a top 5 regular season player. I don't see a reason to move him over Ben Simmons for regular season play only. Sure I agree that his playoffs were worth upgrading that status but you're asking me to move him up a lot here. Not just a few places.


RPM puts LeBron 12th. So LeBron's playoffs was enough to move him up 11 spots to #1 but Durant's playoffs wasn't enough to move him up more than a few places? Did Robert Covington have the 8th best regular season in the league? That's what RPM is telling us.

As for the other advanced stats you're just splitting hairs. His VORP was 4.5 compared to 5.6 for 5th place. His WS/48 was .215 to .230 for 6th place. He was 6th in the league in PER, 6th in ppg, 7th in "ESPN rating", 9th in NBA's PIE, 10th in TS%, 12th in Net RTG. He was in the top 10 or close to it for literally everything outside of RPM, which, not only do I have issues with using as an end-all-be-all, but also ranks everyone's #1 POY 12th.

All of this is on top of the Warriors coasting for significant stretches, them missing key parts of their rotation for the entire year, and Durant being asked to do about as much as anyone else in the league on both sides of the ball.

Even if you give him 10th best regular season, he had the 2nd best postseason (which I would have to give more weight) and won Finals MVP on the best team in the league. That, to me, is a better season than everyone but LeBron, Harden and MAYBE Davis.

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