2022-23 NBA Season Discussion

[OhayoKD]

Remember the time when people said that size isn't relevant anymore, you have to live with threes and you can't have a post player leading his way into the title? Well, I love Denver for shutting down this discussion for the final time.

Miami are way too small to defend Denver. It's not only a matter of Jokic, but they are losing the rebounding battle by massive amount and the Heat has no paint protector outside of Bam, who is forced to defend Jokic at all cost.

Of course, you can't rule out the Heat chances at this point, but it seems that their only hope for 3 next wins is to shoot threes above 40%... which isn't impossible for them in this run at all.

Who said you can't have a post player lead a team to a title? It just so happens that top-tier post players tend to be limited("good for a big") or bad at passing or ball-handling. Jokic is very obviously not.

[Colbinii]

Remember the time when people said that size isn't relevant anymore, you have to live with threes and you can't have a post player leading his way into the title? Well, I love Denver for shutting down this discussion for the final time.

Miami are way too small to defend Denver. It's not only a matter of Jokic, but they are losing the rebounding battle by massive amount and the Heat has no paint protector outside of Bam, who is forced to defend Jokic at all cost.

Of course, you can't rule out the Heat chances at this point, but it seems that their only hope for 3 next wins is to shoot threes above 40%... which isn't impossible for them in this run at all.

Who said you can't have a post player lead a team to a title? It just so happens that top-tier post players tend to be limited("good for a big") or bad at passing or ball-handling. Jokic is very obviously not.

I don't recall ever hearing size isn't relevant. Wasn't the 2020 Lakers title all about their size?

I still think back to 2015 and "how a jump shooting team can never win" when every team in the NBA is now a jump shooting team.

[Doctor MJ]

Remember the time when people said that size isn't relevant anymore, you have to live with threes and you can't have a post player leading his way into the title? Well, I love Denver for shutting down this discussion for the final time.

Miami are way too small to defend Denver. It's not only a matter of Jokic, but they are losing the rebounding battle by massive amount and the Heat has no paint protector outside of Bam, who is forced to defend Jokic at all cost.

Of course, you can't rule out the Heat chances at this point, but it seems that their only hope for 3 next wins is to shoot threes above 40%... which isn't impossible for them in this run at all.

Who said you can't have a post player lead a team to a title? It just so happens that top-tier post players tend to be limited("good for a big") or bad at passing or ball-handling. Jokic is very obviously not.

Yeah I think what Jokic is showing is that you can definitely win with a great post player if he's even better at passing and shooting than he is at backing guys down.

Doesn't mean anything damning about post offense per se, it's just that "post offense" in the past was not expected to rely on the player in question also being a BBIQ genius.

[Colbinii]

I still wouldn't think Moses Malone or Hakeem Olajuwon could lead you to a title in the current era with their post play.

[Doctor MJ]

I still wouldn't think Moses Malone or Hakeem Olajuwon could lead you to a title in the current era with their post play.

Of course with Olajuwon there's the thing that his defense was arguably even more valuable than his offense.

[Colbinii]

I still wouldn't think Moses Malone or Hakeem Olajuwon could lead you to a title in the current era with their post play.

Of course with Olajuwon there's the thing that his defense was arguably even more valuable than his offense.

Yup--I still wouldn't be happy with "His defense is so good we can still run a mediocre offense through him".

Maybe he could play like Bam as a high-post and perimeter passing hub, but even that type of offense is falling flat against a good [albeit not great] Nuggets defense.

The idea that you can now win playing through the post and using Jokic as an example is the same as citing Curry as an example that you can win a championship with your best player being your smallest player. These guys are exceptions to the general rule.

[RCM88x]

While a lot of it is just how the game has changed, Jokic is arguably the least post play oriented C to ever (possibly) lead a title team.

Duncan, Shaq, Hakeem, Kareem, Reed, Wilt, Russell, etc... all played in the post significantly more than Jokic does.

[MyUniBroDavis]

Yeah, no, Hakeem would absolutely be good enough to be the best player on a title team lol

[70sFan]

Who said you can't have a post player lead a team to a title?

Go back to 2016-19 period and find so many posts about how post game is extinct and the future of basketball is all about shooting guards (not the position, the skill). You have been here for a year, I have been here for almost a decade.

[eminence]

While a lot of it is just how the game has changed, Jokic is arguably the least post play oriented C to ever (possibly) lead a title team.

Duncan, Shaq, Hakeem, Kareem, Reed, Wilt, Russell, etc... all played in the post significantly more than Jokic does.

Sort of? Wilt/Russell (title winning versions), had a higher percentage of their offensive play in the post, but they didn't do nearly as much on offense.

[70sFan]

While a lot of it is just how the game has changed, Jokic is arguably the least post play oriented C to ever (possibly) lead a title team.

Duncan, Shaq, Hakeem, Kareem, Reed, Wilt, Russell, etc... all played in the post significantly more than Jokic does.

I don't think Reed played more in the post than Jokic.

[70sFan]

I still wouldn't think Moses Malone or Hakeem Olajuwon could lead you to a title in the current era with their post play.

So you don't think you can win a title with Hakeem being your best player? Is this what you're trying to say?

[MyUniBroDavis]

Who said you can't have a post player lead a team to a title?

Go back to 2016-19 period and find so many posts about how post game is extinct and the future of basketball is all about shooting guards (not the position, the skill). You have been here for a year, I have been here for almost a decade.

X to doubt


But yeah post play is just a form of one on one play, I think people assume that offenses can’t evolve in terms of how they utilize it compared to pick and roll and isolation play and that’s not really the case. Hell, post play is a lot easier to counter defenses than iso play honestly

[70sFan]

The idea that you can now win playing through the post and using Jokic as an example is the same as citing Curry as an example that you can win a championship with your best player being your smallest player. These guys are exceptions to the general rule.

Yeah, that's my point. Post game was never a great way to play basketball unless you have a top tier talent. I have never argued that you can win the title solely by running your offense through Elvin Hayes post ups - that wasn't possible even in the older era without dominant defense and having actually better offensive players.

Are you going to tell me that Kareem or Shaq were not exceptions?

[MyUniBroDavis]

Saying Jokic isn’t post oriented as centers in the past is about as meaningful as saying player X isn’t as iso oriented as in the past, one on one possessions are down in general, Jokic leads the league in post possessions

If Jokic wasn’t this ridiculous scoring force the passing wouldn’t be as effective. He can score in a variety of ways but the fact that this dude is unstoppable in the post matters alot. Guarding him in single coverage isn’t more viable than helping or anything, and passes in the post aren’t inherently worse

Guys like Shaq would for sure be able to lead a top offense well, guys like Hakeem might not = best offensive player in the nba but he wasn’t in his own time either

If anything help defense is harder nowadays so I don’t see why Hakeem struggles more today, one on one scoring is more enhanced now than it was before, and bro was like the definition of nice wit it lol

[MyUniBroDavis]

I think a lot of people on this forum really underestimated how important guard defense is. Because guys like Monte and Will Barton died on screens over and over again, Jokic had to show higher on pick and rolls and against the Steph/Draymond pick and roll (the underpinning of the Warriors dynasty) that's just death. Now Jokic has guys like KCP, Brown, Braun and even MPJ fighting over screens and bothering the pick and roll ballhandler and now he isn't pulled away from the paint and suddenly his defense looks a lot better.

I thought the criticisms about Jokic's defense hamstringing his team's championship hopes was always very shortsighted. You need solid defenders around you to have a great defense, particularly in today's NBA.

He’s been fine in space and on switches in general this playoffs lol, at least for sure relative to other years, the only guys he struggles with are the guys with that athletic burst that can also just finish over him since he’s not gonna block shots more be a wall to getting right to the spot, but most centers aren’t doing great against that type anyway

[Texas Chuck]

I feel like JJ Redick addressed this whole Jokic can't dominate in the post question for us all. The guy can do whatever he wants to do. But if JJ is right, then a Jokic post-up has been the most efficient offensive play in the league over the past what 5 years? Or was it 10? Just saw a glimpse of the clip.

He's a beast. And we need to stop having "rules" about how you can and can't win. The closest thing we have to a relevant must is that you must have one of the 3 best players in the world. But how he is one of the best isn't particularly important. You can be Steph, you can be Russell, you can be Dream, you can be Wade, you can be Duncan, you can be Magic, etc...

And even that "rule" has 4 exceptions in the last 40 years. So that's not even a must, though its near as.

[Colbinii]

I still wouldn't think Moses Malone or Hakeem Olajuwon could lead you to a title in the current era with their post play.

So you don't think you can win a title with Hakeem being your best player? Is this what you're trying to say?

I never said that. I don't think you can win a championship with Hakeem being your primary offensive engine.

[70sFan]

I feel like JJ Redick addressed this whole Jokic can't dominate in the post question for us all. The guy can do whatever he wants to do. But if JJ is right, then a Jokic post-up has been the most efficient offensive play in the league over the past what 5 years? Or was it 10? Just saw a glimpse of the clip.

He's a beast. And we need to stop having "rules" about how you can and can't win. The closest thing we have to a relevant must is that you must have one of the 3 best players in the world. But how he is one of the best isn't particularly important. You can be Steph, you can be Russell, you can be Dream, you can be Wade, you can be Duncan, you can be Magic, etc...

And even that "rule" has 4 exceptions in the last 40 years. So that's not even a must, though its near as.

You nailed my point, we shouldn't use the archetypes to decide who can and who can't win when we talk about the best players in the world.

[Colbinii]

Yeah, no, Hakeem would absolutely be good enough to be the best player on a title team lol

Right, nobody said otherwise.

It's like you post here and everybody just draws their own conclusions based on what someone says when they never said it.