Retro Player of the Year Project

[An Unbiased Fan]

Most of the main guys guarded multiple positions at times, but usually stuck with their main position

For LA in 2000, their big defensive advantage came at the SG & C postions

Opposing SG's shot 40.7%, and had efficiency of 18.4
Opposing C's shot 40.7%, and had efficiency of 18.6
http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fa ... 11-1-1-eff

For Minny, Opposing PF's shot 46%/22.7 eff, and SF's shot 42.8%/19.7 effIt should also be noted that Brandon was a solid defender and the PG position gave up 41.3%/20 eff

For Seattle, opposing PG's shot 42.6%/21.4 eff
http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fa ... 12-1-1-eff

For Miami, opposing C's shot 42.8%/19.4 eff
http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fa ... 10-1-1-eff


LA led the league in SG eff differential at 6.1, and C differential at 16.9
http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fa ... iffeff/1-1

Minny was #3 behind Utah & SA(TD & Malone) for PF eff differential at 8.4
http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fa ... iffeff/1-1

Seattle(GP) was #1 in PG eff diff, and Miami(Zo) was #1 behind LA in it.


It's tough to compare eff ratings between positions because pg usually have the lowest & centers the highest by good margin of where they play on the floor, but it's interesting that postional advantage by position would yield these results for the regualr season
http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fa ... iffeff/7-1

1st Team All-Eff Differential:
PG - Payton (7.3)
SG - Kobe (7.0)
SF - Vince (7.7)
PF - Malone (10.5)
C - Shaq (16.6)

2nd Team All-Eff:
PG - Dre Miller (5.3)
SG - Smith (6.7)
SF - Stackhouse (5.0)
PF - TD (9.8)
C - Zo (11.9)

3rd Team All-Eff:
PG - Kidd (5.2)
SG - Penny (4.6)
SF - Pippen (4.0)
PF - KG (8.6)
C - DRob (7.8)


Actually, I just convinced myself that Kidd doesn't belong in the mix anymore. It's looking more like Malone,Zo,Kobe,GP, with TD(no playoffs) & KG(bad playoffs) on the outside looking in right now.

[Baller 24]

Interesting, I think I'm really learning towards putting GP over KG, for a PG his RS was practically just as good on both ends of the court, and had a better playoff outing against a very good team as he led them to game elimination. I don't know about putting Malone over GP at this point, considering Malone was absolutely amazing offensively in the regular season, maybe not as good as Payton defensively, but still a slightly above average defender, and he advanced in the playoffs while playing some good ball. Again though, I need to see some more compelling arguments on why Malone should be moved down, we haven't really heard much on Malone's side of the ball.

[ronnymac2]

Kobe was a fantastic defender this year, but he was better from 01-04 imo. The only thing he was a bit better at this year was blocking shots. He could be taken into the post though. There were times in the playoffs where post-up wings took him down there, iso'd, and got him in foul trouble. A lot of that happened against the Blazers, mainly because of Bonzi's size and Smith's old tricks. Pippen's, too. He sometimes played too aggressively, and experienced ball-handlers would know how to handle the pressure.

Still, he was great on d this year.


I think Karl Malone and Alonzo Mourning will be battling right now. Alonzo was great this year. Karl was great, too, and in general, I think of Malone as the superior player. I'm leaning towards Karl over Alonzo right now.

I'm looking at Vince, Iverson, and Webber. Garnett is interesting. Kobe. Payton. Kidd is out, mainly because he would be borderline to begin with, and partly because he was injured for much of the playoffs.

No to Grant Hill and Tim Duncan. I remember Hill trying to play in that series. He was in a lot of pain. Should have never played.....

Maybe I'll give D-Rob a look, too. He had a pretty good season.

[Baller 24]

What about KG v Kobe in '00?

1) Why should KG get it over Kobe? I guess RS is the main argument here, considering KG in the playoffs wasn't really that great.

2) Why should Kobe get it over KG? Kobe was flat out better in the playoffs, fantastic in the championship run, is that enough to actually give Kobe the nod over KG's RS dominance?

Let the arguments begin!

BTW I think as of the right now, my draft of the '00 list is currently at the following:
1) Shaq
2) Zo
3) Malone
4) Payton
5 Garnett or Bryant ?

[semi-sentient]

Yeah, that's the real question.

Does it really come down to Kobe and Payton though? Personally, I think Payton could go as high as #3. He certainly has the strongest case since he's great on both ends.

In your opinion who does it come down to? I'm down to move Payton up, but I need some evidence for KG/Malone going down on my list.

'

I don't know, really. The only problem with Payton is that of all the candidates, his team was the least successful, but then I don't know how heavily that should be weighed because without the proper supporting cast your just not going to win much. His cast definitely didn't step up to the plate in the post-season where he was by far their best player, and his scoring/efficiency didn't really drop off the way that KG's did. Both of them played in only one series, and awards/recognition is about even, but Payton's stats are definitely superior. Kobe and Malone both played more games in the post-season and had some epic performances, so IMO they have an advantage in that respect (PS) over Payton.

I think a case can be made that Payton's the best offensive player (better than Malone) because he is responsible for not only creating for others, but he's also the primary scorer. Malone has Stockton to set things up, so he doesn't have quite as much responsibility. Kobe and KG aren't as good as he is scoring-wise or facilitating (and this is where KG falls short when compared to Kobe as well, but not by as much), and the fact that he's one of the best guard defenders only adds to his case. I don't know who is better between him and Kobe though (defensively). I'll need more input from others.

KG's impact as a big may well be more significant on defense, but guys like Payton and Kobe have a bigger impact offensively, so it's a question of what you value more from an individual player. For me, it's offense.

And then Payton, KG, and Kobe are better two-way players than Malone (MVP, All-NBA) and were recognized in every way (MVP, DPOY, All-NBA, All-Defense selections), so there's all kinds of angles to consider. Each player has a unique set of pros/cons and it's a question of how to weigh them against each other. That's a hard thing to do.

Right now, I like Payton at #3 because he played great in both the regular season and playoffs, and he was great on both ends. He basically has all the positives and none of the negatives, whereas all the other guys have at least one thing working against them (for Malone, it's defense and minutes... for KG, it's offensive efficiency/scoring in the playoffs... for Kobe, it's games missed).

After that, I'm not really sure. No one else is really making a strong case for Kobe (yet), so I think 4/5 probably goes to Malone and KG with Kobe looking over their shoulders with his chipmunk scowl look.

[semi-sentient]

BTW, ronnymac2, that's a good point on Kobe's defense. He's wasn't as strong on the blocks so guys did post him up. Mark Jackson even posted him up and scored on him in Game 1 (to end the 1st quarter), so that was definitely one of his weaknesses and probably why he bulked up and put on 15+ pounds the next season.

[Baller 24]

You're right about Stockton, I don't like putting much weight on AST%, but Jesus Christ it's off the charts.

[NO-KG-AI]

I don't think PAyton can be justified over KG to be honest. They are exactly even in PER, and KG's team did a little better, and KG finished 2nd in MVP voting to Payton's 6th.

Payton's PER also dropped some in the postseason, and his shooting % didn't drop off like KG's, but his assists dropped off a fair amount, and his turnovers went way up.

That, and I don't think they are that comparable on defense, and it seems to be getting forgotten that KG is a legit anchor and all time great defensive player. That, and I just think Garnett flatout has a bigger impact on offense because his teams overachieve offensively, and GP's style seems a bit hard to build awesome offenses around because he's a ball stopper, not a great outside shooter, and not a prolific playmaker at the PG spot.

If someone values those postseason games really high, that's how I could see justification for Malone or Kobe, but Payton went out as quick as KG.

[An Unbiased Fan]

I just don't understand how Minny allowed opposing PF's to shoot 46% against them, which was slighty below the league average. The Spurs only allowed 42.9% which is way below the league average. The Wolves were basically just a little better than the Jazz with Malone(46.9% for opposing PF's).

Conversely, Shaq, Kobe, TD, Zo, all have significant low opposing FG% at their respective positions. Payton is about equal with KG, and Malone was the worst.

My guess is KG guarded the SF's a lot, 42.8% is way below average for SF's that year, but even still, not as impactful as the first four I mentioned.

Impactwise based on league averages, I would rank defense as:

1) Shaq - 40.7%
2) Zo - 42.8%
3) TD - 42.9%
4) Kobe - 40.7%

These 4 all held opposing position players to significant;y low FG%

5) KG - 46% (If KG guarded mostly SF's, he would still be #5, but have clear seperation from GP at 42.6%)
6) Payton - 42.8%

Slighy below the league average

7) Malone - 46.9%

At this point I'm leaning toward #1 Shaq and #2 Zo. Malone had the best efficiency differential of all PFs, but was the worst defender. GP's defense seems a bit overrated this year, he was good, but not as good as the Top 4 mentioned. KG's D isn't impressing me yet, I still see no evidence of a huge defensive impact, and with his playoff performance, I'm pretty sure he's going to be the odd man out at this point.

[NO-KG-AI]

KG flipped positions a lot, and he played the "point at the top of a 3-2 zone a lot of hte time as well.

Wolves played a lot of "zone" and it's hard to put any number on any single player.

Do you have the entire breakdown of how each positions scored on them?

Also, AUF, did you read my post on the defensive rating? Garnett's was particularly impressive considering his support.

[bastillon]

so let's just toss all that crap aside and focus on the only important factor here which is...

the defense!...
... the rebounding...
...unselfishness ?...

oh, wait, right - got it now !
... which is THE SCORING !111ONEONE
38%, bad performance, period.

I've seen you savage several of Kareem's playoff performances based almost entirely on drops in his scoring and shooting percentage.

that's because I compared KAJ to TOP3 all-time players, not Kobe freakin Bryant in 2000 who barely broke 20 PPG for the first time in his career. I thought it's pretty obvious. also I bashed KAJ because his team underachieved in the playoffs, no such case here as Wolves were ridiculous overachievers.

funniest thing so far: Garnett had help because he had borderline all-star Brandon. I mean... seriously, wtf ? wanna play that card ? Kobe had help in 06! he had Lamar Odom, borderline all-star, on his team. actually Odom was easily better and more impactful than Brandon so I guess Kobe had great help that year. nevermind Smush and his D (Wally) or Kwame and his post-game (rookie Rasho)

my main argument is that KG anchored a 50-win team without another all-star on his team. then his team went on to overachieve in the playoffs because KG anchored their great D against the Blazers, while at the same time producing over 40% of his team's pts. how is this a knock on Garnett when Malone did significantly worse against the same opponent in the playoffs ?

and I won't even get into Kobe being better than Garnett on defense. Bryant was never anything close to defensive anchor and Garnett is one of the best defenders ever and was in his prime as well. just

[Minge]

-snipped-
And whoever voted Iverson for MVP that season needs their ass kicked... lol. That single vote kept Shaq from getting it unanimously.

Fred Hickman of CNN/SI.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/news/2000/05/09/nba_mvp_Hickman/

-snipped-
I won't even get into Kobe being better than (KG) on defense.

Feb. 20, 2000: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyLg15UIRLY

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/news/2000/02/20/lakers_sixers_ap/
*This highlighted Bryant's defensive ability; matched the best perimeter players of the decade, Bryant shutdown Iverson infront of a National audience (NBC). He became the first Laker since Cooper to be named to the All-D 1st Team. Bryant chased Iverson, denied him the ball, cut off straight-line penetration, funneled baseline into help-D, blocked (4) of his shots, held to 0-11 shooting, and scoreless through the entire second-half. Iverson had a rep for 4th quarter play; but it was Bryant that made the clutch shots and stops to secure the win (87-84).

[Silver Bullet]

Why are people consistently giving KG credit for being an elite defensive big ? Didn't he play SF ?

And you guys are totally over rating Payton defensively - his reputation far exceeded his ability at this point.

[semi-sentient]

and I won't even get into Kobe being better than Garnett on defense. Bryant was never anything close to defensive anchor and Garnett is one of the best defenders ever and was in his prime as well. just

1999-00 was the first time Garnett (and Kobe) made the All-Defensive team (1st or 2nd). You're going a bit overboard, don't you think?

A 35 year old Karl Malone made the All-Defensive 1st team in 1998-99, so I don't want to hear anything about competition at his position.

And you've managed to ignore what Kobe did as a defender in the playoffs, in addition to what others have posted about RS opponents (although admittedly, I haven't look deep enough into this). If you believe KG was the better defender, that's fine, but throwing up a is not a valid argument as to why unless you expect everyone to give him the edge based on reputation, which at this point is absurd because neither guy had a reputation as being elite defensively.

[semi-sentient]

Why are people consistently giving KG credit for being an elite defensive big ? Didn't he play SF?

My thoughts exactly, but again, I'd like to see some video of him playing against the Blazers so I can more accurately judge him. I've seen a lot of Kobe, obviously, and I loved his defense. It's only fair that I see KG in action as well. When looking at players defensively, it's difficult to go by stats.

And you guys are totally over rating Payton defensively - his reputation far exceeded his ability at this point.

That's crossed my mind, and we all know that it happens. I'm reminded quickly of how Kobe is currently getting 1st team selections based on his reputation, and it happened to plenty of others before him.

It's worth noting that Kobe received DPOY selections this year (2010), so I'm probably going to throw that out as far as award considerations are concerned. After 2nd place (in 2000) it starts getting very questionable. Even Shaq as the runner-up is questionable. He still had his weaknesses defensively as well, especially when it came to screen/roll defense and guarding his man outside the paint. One has to wonder why guys like Duncan and Robinson didn't get more love. They did have the 2nd best defensive team in the league, after all.

[An Unbiased Fan]

KG flipped positions a lot, and he played the "point at the top of a 3-2 zone a lot of hte time as well.

Wolves played a lot of "zone" and it's hard to put any number on any single player.

Do you have the entire breakdown of how each positions scored on them?

Each position is listed here: http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fa ... 12-1-1-eff

I do rememeber KG's versatility on D, I guess it's hard to guage his effect on opposing FG% with a zone system in play. But it should be noted that Minny gave up 48.1% in the paint, which was bad for that year. Their D on the perimeter was 42.3%, which was above average.

I just feel KG wasn't an enforcer in the paint yet like TD, Shaq, or Zo, or a lockdown perimeter defender like Kobe that year.

Also, AUF, did you read my post on the defensive rating? Garnett's was particularly impressive considering his support

I did, you make some good points. KG anchored Minny's well and had the best DRTG on the T-Wolves by good margin. I just don't value that stat or it's counterpart offensive rating very much. For example, KG was 9 points behind a rookie Wally Z. at 107 ORTG, and was behind Sealy & Brandon too. So are we to think that KG was Minny's 4th best offensive player that year?

[semi-sentient]

Speaking of stats, look at Bobby Jackson's PER in the playoffs for the Wolves.

Edit: Damn, had this guy not voted for AI for MVP, I might have been able to use his argument to boost support for Frobe :

What then was the deciding factor in casting my vote? The simple reality that if you remove Shaquille O'Neal from the Lakers equation, you still have a very, very good basketball team, albeit not the favorite to win it all this season. The supporting cast is exemplary, featuring the likes of Kobe Bryant and Glen Rice on the floor, with Phil Jackson and one of the best coaching staffs on the bench. They make the playoffs, for sure, and maybe stay around for the conference finals.

[Baller 24]

NOKGAI and SB have a point, KG and Kobe were the young defensive jedi's (KG probably better for his overall defensive impact), over Payton who was probably living off of a defensive rep like none other. As for Malone, I thought about it, and I think he's a solid third for me right now. But I guess it's back to the drawing board for the 4th and 5th picks, Garnett, Bryant, and Payton.

[Baller 24]

double post..

[semi-sentient]

Yeah, those are all good points, so back to the drawing board for me as well.

1/2 seems so obvious, but 3-5 is a nightmare.