RealGM Top 100 List #11

[Baller2014]

Yeh, this Dantley myth as a bad team mate was born out of a false narrative about the Pistons titles. They'd have won those titles with Dantley too, trading him did nothing to help increase their title chances IMO. Dantley was a better scorer than Kobe was, yet nobody will mention him until after the top 50 is done prolly.

If anyone is wondering the vote is currently KG (18) to Kobe (9*)
*I'm counting Tsherkin's unexplained vote in this 9.

[Reservoirdawgs]

If you're unsure, I'd encourage you to go back and read my Dr J v.s Kobe post on page 1. It's very troubling and telling that nobody has even tried to address the negatives Kobe brings with him.

Alright, this part is getting tiring. People have addressed his negatives, as they have for other players with reputations for poor attitudes (real or perceived). You are intentionally overstating Kobe's attitude issues and are now being intellectually dishonest with yourself. We can acknowledge attitude issues while placing the focus on what happened on the court. After all, Jordan was fairly unanimous as the #1 and he came with a host of attitude issues as well.

[Baller2014]

If you're unsure, I'd encourage you to go back and read my Dr J v.s Kobe post on page 1. It's very troubling and telling that nobody has even tried to address the negatives Kobe brings with him.

Alright, this part is getting tiring. People have addressed his negatives, as they have for other players with reputations for poor attitudes (real or perceived). You are intentionally overstating Kobe's attitude issues and are now being intellectually dishonest with yourself. We can acknowledge attitude issues while placing the focus on what happened on the court. After all, Jordan was fairly unanimous as the #1 and he came with a host of attitude issues as well.

It's not the same at all. For instance, one poster tried to compare it to Jordan's negatives and cited the example of MJ punching Steve Kerr. My reply is simple- we know that didn't hurt the team. Right after it happened Jordan went and apologised to Steve, and the 2 became best buddies. Phil Jackson wrote in his book, 11 Rings, about how it was the moment where Jordan fully came to understand the importance of leadership. That mistake made Jordan look inwards, realise he had been in the wrong, admit it, and start to use better team work. Kobe's didn't learn from his mistakes really, and constantly refused to recognise them, because he wasn't just about winning- he was about winning "his way". I covered this in depth on page 1, with a large amount of evidence to back it up. It just happened.

I won't hold Karl Malone's off court behaviour against him, because there is no evidence it impacted on court performance. Kobe's behaviour clearly did. To the extent Jordan's did we hold that against him in the early years, but I've certainly never heard anything remotely resembling the stuff Kobe pulled on Jordan's rap sheet.

[Black Feet]

If you're unsure, I'd encourage you to go back and read my Dr J v.s Kobe post on page 1. It's very troubling and telling that nobody has even tried to address the negatives Kobe brings with him.

Alright, this part is getting tiring. People have addressed his negatives, as they have for other players with reputations for poor attitudes (real or perceived). You are intentionally overstating Kobe's attitude issues and are now being intellectually dishonest with yourself. We can acknowledge attitude issues while placing the focus on what happened on the court. After all, Jordan was fairly unanimous as the #1 and he came with a host of attitude issues as well.

It's not the same at all. For instance, one poster tried to compare it to Jordan's negatives and cited the example of MJ punching Steve Kerr. My reply is simple- we know that didn't hurt the team. Right after it happened Jordan went and apologised to Steve, and the 2 became best buddies. Phil Jackson wrote in his book, 11 Rings, about how it was the moment where Jordan fully came to understand the importance of leadership. That mistake made Jordan look inwards, realise he had been in the wrong, admit it, and start to use better team work. Kobe's didn't learn from his mistakes really, and constantly refused to recognise them, because he wasn't just about winning- he was about winning "his way". I covered this in depth on page 1, with a large amount of evidence to back it up. It just happened.

I won't hold Karl Malone's off court behaviour against him, because there is no evidence it impacted on court performance. Kobe's behaviour clearly did. To the extent Jordan's did we hold that against him in the early years, but I've certainly never heard anything remotely resembling the stuff Kobe pulled on Jordan's rap sheet.

"We're beating a lot of poor teams. So what? We won a lot of games last year, too. Will Horace and Bill still be playing at this level in the playoffs...Can Pip keep it up?"

"I hate being out there with those garbagemen. They don't get you the ball."

"They've got no idea what it's all about. The white guys, they work hard, but they don't have the talent. And the rest of them? Who knows what to expect? They're not good for much of anything."

"I know what's gonna happen. We'll wait until the last minute and then they'll say something like they couldn't get a deal done because of the cap or somebody pulled out at the last minute. It happens here all the time. I don't know why I'm surprised every year."

"He can't do anything with the ball. Don't give it to him." - Michael yelling at Paxson who passed the ball to Perdue

"You ever hear of a guy, six-eleven maybe and two hundred sixty pounds, a guy big and fat like that and he can't get but two rebounds, if that many, running all over the damn court and he gets two rebounds? Big guy like that and he gets one rebound. Can't even stick his ass into people and get more than that...Big, fat, fat guy. One rebound in three games. Power forward. Maybe they should call it powerless forward." - Michael ripping Stacey King a new one

"He was scared in there and panicking. He just lost it when Stockton scored." - Michael on B.J. Armstrong's mental fragility

I'll let them stand up and take responsibility for themselves."

"We have to do some things. We need to make some changes."

"...I call them 'the Looney Tunes.' Physically, they were the best. Mentally, they weren't even close."

"He's scared. He's got no heart...Nobody told me that. If I had spoken up, he wouldn't have been here."

"I know I can recognize what to do, but I'm not sure they can."

"It's a hell of a lot easier to make Earl Monroe look good than it is Brad Sellers."

"I hope there's a jumpshot in there." - Michael to Stacey King who was walking into the locker room with a box

"They don't need a ticket to watch you sitting on the bench. They can go to your house for that." - Michael to Charles Davis who was sorting through his tickets for his family and friends

"Give me the fu*king ball." - Michael to Doug Collins who drew up a play for Dave Corzine

"I hate when I have to read that in the papers the next day, that I couldn't do something. It wasn't my fault."

"You're an idiot. You've screwed up every play we ever ran. You're too stupid to even remember the plays. We ought to get rid of you." - Michael to Horace Grant

"If you [pass the ball to Bill Cartwright], you'll never get the ball from me."

"We're not winning because of talent. We're just beating bad teams."

"Headache tonight, Scottie?" - Michael asks Scottie, while showing him his 2-for-16 line

"It's probably a twelve-day. He needs two days to wake up." - Michael on a ten-day contract teammate

"Five more years and I'm out of here. I'm marking these days on a calendar, like I'm in jail. I'm tired of being used by this organization, by the league, by the writers, by everyone."

"They're not interested in winning. They just want to sell tickets, which they can do because of me. They won't make any deals to make us better. And this Kukoc thing. I hate that. They're spending all their time chasing this guy."

"If I were a general manager, we'd be a better team."


"Will Vanderbilt. He doesn't deserve to be named after a Big Ten school." - Michael on Will Perdue - AWESOME!

"I want to prove the critics wrong...I want to see some serious moves from management, which I really haven't seen that much of yet, and I want to see more serious attitudes from my teammates this year when it comes to the playoffs. In the past, it's been more or less a joking thing, sort of a 'Well, we're here, so let's have a good time.'"..........

"I'm sure everything will be fine if we win, but if we start losing, I'm shooting."

"I know what I would do if I were coach. I'd determine our strengths and weaknesses and utilize them. And it's pretty clear what our strength is."

"Your boy doesn't want to play. I'm tired of bailing his ass out." - Michael yelling at Jim Cleamons about Dennis Hopson

"I don't know about trading a 24 year-old guy for a 34 year-old guy." - Michael questioning the Oakley trade

"He's causing me too many turnovers." - Michael on Cartwright's inability to catch

"Why the hell don't you ever set a pick like that in a game?" - Michael yelling at Perdue after also hitting Perdue upside his head (led to the institution of the private curtain for practices)

[Baller2014]

Spoiler:

"We're beating a lot of poor teams. So what? We won a lot of games last year, too. Will Horace and Bill still be playing at this level in the playoffs...Can Pip keep it up?"

"I hate being out there with those garbagemen. They don't get you the ball."

"They've got no idea what it's all about. The white guys, they work hard, but they don't have the talent. And the rest of them? Who knows what to expect? They're not good for much of anything."

"I know what's gonna happen. We'll wait until the last minute and then they'll say something like they couldn't get a deal done because of the cap or somebody pulled out at the last minute. It happens here all the time. I don't know why I'm surprised every year."

"He can't do anything with the ball. Don't give it to him." - Michael yelling at Paxson who passed the ball to Perdue

"You ever hear of a guy, six-eleven maybe and two hundred sixty pounds, a guy big and fat like that and he can't get but two rebounds, if that many, running all over the damn court and he gets two rebounds? Big guy like that and he gets one rebound. Can't even stick his ass into people and get more than that...Big, fat, fat guy. One rebound in three games. Power forward. Maybe they should call it powerless forward." - Michael ripping Stacey King a new one

"He was scared in there and panicking. He just lost it when Stockton scored." - Michael on B.J. Armstrong's mental fragility

I'll let them stand up and take responsibility for themselves."

"We have to do some things. We need to make some changes."

"...I call them 'the Looney Tunes.' Physically, they were the best. Mentally, they weren't even close."

"He's scared. He's got no heart...Nobody told me that. If I had spoken up, he wouldn't have been here."

"I know I can recognize what to do, but I'm not sure they can."

"It's a hell of a lot easier to make Earl Monroe look good than it is Brad Sellers."

"I hope there's a jumpshot in there." - Michael to Stacey King who was walking into the locker room with a box

"They don't need a ticket to watch you sitting on the bench. They can go to your house for that." - Michael to Charles Davis who was sorting through his tickets for his family and friends

"Give me the fu*king ball." - Michael to Doug Collins who drew up a play for Dave Corzine

"I hate when I have to read that in the papers the next day, that I couldn't do something. It wasn't my fault."

"You're an idiot. You've screwed up every play we ever ran. You're too stupid to even remember the plays. We ought to get rid of you." - Michael to Horace Grant

"If you [pass the ball to Bill Cartwright], you'll never get the ball from me."

"We're not winning because of talent. We're just beating bad teams."

"Headache tonight, Scottie?" - Michael asks Scottie, while showing him his 2-for-16 line

"It's probably a twelve-day. He needs two days to wake up." - Michael on a ten-day contract teammate

"Five more years and I'm out of here. I'm marking these days on a calendar, like I'm in jail. I'm tired of being used by this organization, by the league, by the writers, by everyone."

"They're not interested in winning. They just want to sell tickets, which they can do because of me. They won't make any deals to make us better. And this Kukoc thing. I hate that. They're spending all their time chasing this guy."

"If I were a general manager, we'd be a better team."


"Will Vanderbilt. He doesn't deserve to be named after a Big Ten school." - Michael on Will Perdue - AWESOME!

"I want to prove the critics wrong...I want to see some serious moves from management, which I really haven't seen that much of yet, and I want to see more serious attitudes from my teammates this year when it comes to the playoffs. In the past, it's been more or less a joking thing, sort of a 'Well, we're here, so let's have a good time.'"..........

"I'm sure everything will be fine if we win, but if we start losing, I'm shooting."

"I know what I would do if I were coach. I'd determine our strengths and weaknesses and utilize them. And it's pretty clear what our strength is."

"Your boy doesn't want to play. I'm tired of bailing his ass out." - Michael yelling at Jim Cleamons about Dennis Hopson

"I don't know about trading a 24 year-old guy for a 34 year-old guy." - Michael questioning the Oakley trade

"He's causing me too many turnovers." - Michael on Cartwright's inability to catch

"Why the hell don't you ever set a pick like that in a game?" - Michael yelling at Perdue after also hitting Perdue upside his head (led to the institution of the private curtain for practices)

Explain to me how these remarks in anyway resembles the stuff Kobe was pulling, which I detailed on page 1. To summarise, Kobe was: refusing to share the ball, refusing to listen to his coach, feuding with his fellow star, got a fellow star and coach dumped from the team because he didn't like them (not because moving them helped the team), tried to bail on his team twice when the going got tough, continually went to the media and ripped his team mates in public as a response to in-house matters, etc, etc. This is a guy whose refusal to work in the system he was given probably cost his team multiple titles, because he thought he was bigger than the team. That's not my opinion, that's from the mouth of Phil Jackson (and I cited him and others through the post). This is a guy who actually sabotaged his own team, by taking too few shots in selected games, to try and "make a point". A guy who actively refused to try and become friends with his team mates when asked, a guy with terrible leadership skills, and whose attitude has become more problematic as he has gotten older.

All you've got there are some run of the mill "my team/management needs to do a better job" quotes that are thrown out there every now and again when players get frustrated (many of them in-house comments reported years down the track). It doesn't compare to Kobe's rap sheet at all.

[Moonbeam]

Yeh, this Dantley myth as a bad team mate was born out of a false narrative about the Pistons titles. They'd have won those titles with Dantley too, trading him did nothing to help increase their title chances IMO. Dantley was a better scorer than Kobe was, yet nobody will mention him until after the top 50 is done prolly.

If anyone is wondering the vote is currently KG (18) to Kobe (9*)
*I'm counting Tsherkin's unexplained vote in this 9.

Yeah, Dantley was a quiet, introverted guy, and that made for some clashes with the likes of the boisterous Frank Layden and the gregarious Isiah Thomas, but he had good relationships with teammates too. Joe Dumars, another quiet guy, was his best friend in Detroit. I seem to remember that Joe named Adrian as godfather to one of his children, or vice versa. He was confident in his abilities and was stubborn, but he always played very hard and kept himself in remarkable shape. It's a shame the Pistons lost in 1988, because I think Dantley's entire career would be viewed very differently had they won that coin-toss series.

Depending on how the votes go, I may vote for Dantley in the 41-50 range, but I imagine I'd be all alone there.

[Black Feet]

Spoiler:

"We're beating a lot of poor teams. So what? We won a lot of games last year, too. Will Horace and Bill still be playing at this level in the playoffs...Can Pip keep it up?"

"I hate being out there with those garbagemen. They don't get you the ball."

"They've got no idea what it's all about. The white guys, they work hard, but they don't have the talent. And the rest of them? Who knows what to expect? They're not good for much of anything."

"I know what's gonna happen. We'll wait until the last minute and then they'll say something like they couldn't get a deal done because of the cap or somebody pulled out at the last minute. It happens here all the time. I don't know why I'm surprised every year."

"He can't do anything with the ball. Don't give it to him." - Michael yelling at Paxson who passed the ball to Perdue

"You ever hear of a guy, six-eleven maybe and two hundred sixty pounds, a guy big and fat like that and he can't get but two rebounds, if that many, running all over the damn court and he gets two rebounds? Big guy like that and he gets one rebound. Can't even stick his ass into people and get more than that...Big, fat, fat guy. One rebound in three games. Power forward. Maybe they should call it powerless forward." - Michael ripping Stacey King a new one

"He was scared in there and panicking. He just lost it when Stockton scored." - Michael on B.J. Armstrong's mental fragility

I'll let them stand up and take responsibility for themselves."

"We have to do some things. We need to make some changes."

"...I call them 'the Looney Tunes.' Physically, they were the best. Mentally, they weren't even close."

"He's scared. He's got no heart...Nobody told me that. If I had spoken up, he wouldn't have been here."

"I know I can recognize what to do, but I'm not sure they can."

"It's a hell of a lot easier to make Earl Monroe look good than it is Brad Sellers."

"I hope there's a jumpshot in there." - Michael to Stacey King who was walking into the locker room with a box

"They don't need a ticket to watch you sitting on the bench. They can go to your house for that." - Michael to Charles Davis who was sorting through his tickets for his family and friends

"Give me the fu*king ball." - Michael to Doug Collins who drew up a play for Dave Corzine

"I hate when I have to read that in the papers the next day, that I couldn't do something. It wasn't my fault."

"You're an idiot. You've screwed up every play we ever ran. You're too stupid to even remember the plays. We ought to get rid of you." - Michael to Horace Grant

"If you [pass the ball to Bill Cartwright], you'll never get the ball from me."

"We're not winning because of talent. We're just beating bad teams."

"Headache tonight, Scottie?" - Michael asks Scottie, while showing him his 2-for-16 line

"It's probably a twelve-day. He needs two days to wake up." - Michael on a ten-day contract teammate

"Five more years and I'm out of here. I'm marking these days on a calendar, like I'm in jail. I'm tired of being used by this organization, by the league, by the writers, by everyone."

"They're not interested in winning. They just want to sell tickets, which they can do because of me. They won't make any deals to make us better. And this Kukoc thing. I hate that. They're spending all their time chasing this guy."

"If I were a general manager, we'd be a better team."


"Will Vanderbilt. He doesn't deserve to be named after a Big Ten school." - Michael on Will Perdue - AWESOME!

"I want to prove the critics wrong...I want to see some serious moves from management, which I really haven't seen that much of yet, and I want to see more serious attitudes from my teammates this year when it comes to the playoffs. In the past, it's been more or less a joking thing, sort of a 'Well, we're here, so let's have a good time.'"..........

"I'm sure everything will be fine if we win, but if we start losing, I'm shooting."

"I know what I would do if I were coach. I'd determine our strengths and weaknesses and utilize them. And it's pretty clear what our strength is."

"Your boy doesn't want to play. I'm tired of bailing his ass out." - Michael yelling at Jim Cleamons about Dennis Hopson

"I don't know about trading a 24 year-old guy for a 34 year-old guy." - Michael questioning the Oakley trade

"He's causing me too many turnovers." - Michael on Cartwright's inability to catch

"Why the hell don't you ever set a pick like that in a game?" - Michael yelling at Perdue after also hitting Perdue upside his head (led to the institution of the private curtain for practices)

Explain to me how these remarks in anyway resembles the stuff Kobe was pulling, which I detailed on page 1. To summarise, Kobe was: refusing to share the ball, refusing to listen to his coach, feuding with his fellow star, got a fellow star and coach dumped from the team because he didn't like them (not because moving them helped the team), tried to bail on his team twice when the going got tough, continually went to the media and ripped his team mates in public as a response to in-house matters, etc, etc. This is a guy whose refusal to work in the system he was given probably cost his team multiple titles, because he thought he was bigger than the team. That's not my opinion, that's from the mouth of Phil Jackson (and I cited him and others through the post). This is a guy who actually sabotaged his own team, by taking too few shots in selected games, to try and "make a point". A guy who actively refused to try and become friends with his team mates when asked, a guy with terrible leadership skills, and whose attitude has become more problematic as he has gotten older.

All you've got there are some run of the mill "my team/management needs to do a better job" quotes that are thrown out there every now and again when players get frustrated (many of them in-house comments reported years down the track). It doesn't compare to Kobe's rap sheet at all.

Run of the mill team needs to do better quotes?

I just posted that for everyone else and to see you try and dance around those quotes, thanks for the laughs.

[Quotatious]

I may vote for Dantley in the 41-50 range, but I imagine I'd be all alone there.

Not necessarily. I had him at 49 on my pre-list before the project. It'll be very difficult to convince people that he should be that high, because even though his scoring looks phenomenal at first glance (he's almost peerless as far as volume + efficiency), it totally didn't translate to a good team offense, so he'll likely be categorized as an "empty stat" guy.

Explain to me how these remarks in anyway resembles the stuff Kobe was pulling, which I detailed on page 1. To summarise, Kobe was: refusing to share the ball, refusing to listen to his coach, feuding with his fellow star, got a fellow star and coach dumped from the team because he didn't like them (not because moving them helped the team), tried to bail on his team twice when the going got tough, continually went to the media and ripped his team mates in public as a response to in-house matters, etc, etc. This is a guy whose refusal to work in the system he was given probably cost his team multiple titles, because he thought he was bigger than the team. That's not my opinion, that's from the mouth of Phil Jackson (and I cited him and others through the post). This is a guy who actually sabotaged his own team, by taking too few shots in selected games, to try and "make a point". A guy who actively refused to try and become friends with his team mates when asked, a guy with terrible leadership skills, and whose attitude has become more problematic as he has gotten older.

All you've got there are some run of the mill "my team/management needs to do a better job" quotes that are thrown out there every now and again when players get frustrated (many of them in-house comments reported years down the track). It doesn't compare to Kobe's rap sheet at all.

Really? Young MJ (especially before his first championship) was exactly like pre-2008 Kobe. I don't know how you can negate that. These quotes speak for themselves.

[Baller2014]

MJ certainly improved his attitude as his career went on, and he definitely had an ego all through his career, but it's not remotely comparable to Kobe's rap sheet, and I explained why in some depth. There's not much evidence it impeded the teams either.

Take the example of MJ calling out ownership, most of the time MJ was complaining that he needed a better team and talking about how "in 5 years, I'll leave" if things don't improve. Kobe, on the other hand, forced ownership to make moves to get worse on the court (moving Shaq, firing Phil, etc), because he wasn't satisfied with merely winning, and then a few years later he wanted out of the mess he'd forced them to create (and which he'd been supportive of initially). Totally different levels of bad there, and that's true of everything Kobe is being accused of. A lot of the Jordan quotes above weren't in public, they were private in-house comments revealed years later when it was no longer relevant. Kobe on the other hand would go to the media and have special interviews to cuss out his team mates, in response to private in-house conflicts. MJ also learnt his lessons pretty early on, while Phil Jackson complained Kobe seemed to get worse as the Lakers won more (because it still wasn't enough for him). A stark contrast to Jordan, who realised early on under Phil that he had more talent now, and that he needed to sacrifice for the team.

Like I said, I documented all this on page 1. There's a world of difference between shooting too much on a bad team, but then changing your ways when your coach shows you it leads to winning, and shooting too much to pad your resume (as Phil accused Kobe of doing) even though it hurts the team to do so. A young Jordan didn't want to pass to his team mates because they sucked, while Kobe often didn't want to pass to team mates for the opposite reason. It's pretty obvious which decision is worse and more damaging to winning games.

[Striders]

"We're beating a lot of poor teams. So what? We won a lot of games last year, too. Will Horace and Bill still be playing at this level in the playoffs...Can Pip keep it up?"

"I hate being out there with those garbagemen. They don't get you the ball."

"They've got no idea what it's all about. The white guys, they work hard, but they don't have the talent. And the rest of them? Who knows what to expect? They're not good for much of anything."

"I know what's gonna happen. We'll wait until the last minute and then they'll say something like they couldn't get a deal done because of the cap or somebody pulled out at the last minute. It happens here all the time. I don't know why I'm surprised every year."

"He can't do anything with the ball. Don't give it to him." - Michael yelling at Paxson who passed the ball to Perdue

"You ever hear of a guy, six-eleven maybe and two hundred sixty pounds, a guy big and fat like that and he can't get but two rebounds, if that many, running all over the damn court and he gets two rebounds? Big guy like that and he gets one rebound. Can't even stick his ass into people and get more than that...Big, fat, fat guy. One rebound in three games. Power forward. Maybe they should call it powerless forward." - Michael ripping Stacey King a new one

"He was scared in there and panicking. He just lost it when Stockton scored." - Michael on B.J. Armstrong's mental fragility

I'll let them stand up and take responsibility for themselves."

"We have to do some things. We need to make some changes."

"...I call them 'the Looney Tunes.' Physically, they were the best. Mentally, they weren't even close."

"He's scared. He's got no heart...Nobody told me that. If I had spoken up, he wouldn't have been here."

"I know I can recognize what to do, but I'm not sure they can."

"It's a hell of a lot easier to make Earl Monroe look good than it is Brad Sellers."

"I hope there's a jumpshot in there." - Michael to Stacey King who was walking into the locker room with a box

"They don't need a ticket to watch you sitting on the bench. They can go to your house for that." - Michael to Charles Davis who was sorting through his tickets for his family and friends

"Give me the fu*king ball." - Michael to Doug Collins who drew up a play for Dave Corzine

"I hate when I have to read that in the papers the next day, that I couldn't do something. It wasn't my fault."

"You're an idiot. You've screwed up every play we ever ran. You're too stupid to even remember the plays. We ought to get rid of you." - Michael to Horace Grant

"If you [pass the ball to Bill Cartwright], you'll never get the ball from me."

"We're not winning because of talent. We're just beating bad teams."

"Headache tonight, Scottie?" - Michael asks Scottie, while showing him his 2-for-16 line

"It's probably a twelve-day. He needs two days to wake up." - Michael on a ten-day contract teammate

"Five more years and I'm out of here. I'm marking these days on a calendar, like I'm in jail. I'm tired of being used by this organization, by the league, by the writers, by everyone."

"They're not interested in winning. They just want to sell tickets, which they can do because of me. They won't make any deals to make us better. And this Kukoc thing. I hate that. They're spending all their time chasing this guy."

"If I were a general manager, we'd be a better team."


"Will Vanderbilt. He doesn't deserve to be named after a Big Ten school." - Michael on Will Perdue - AWESOME!

"I want to prove the critics wrong...I want to see some serious moves from management, which I really haven't seen that much of yet, and I want to see more serious attitudes from my teammates this year when it comes to the playoffs. In the past, it's been more or less a joking thing, sort of a 'Well, we're here, so let's have a good time.'"..........

"I'm sure everything will be fine if we win, but if we start losing, I'm shooting."

"I know what I would do if I were coach. I'd determine our strengths and weaknesses and utilize them. And it's pretty clear what our strength is."

"Your boy doesn't want to play. I'm tired of bailing his ass out." - Michael yelling at Jim Cleamons about Dennis Hopson

"I don't know about trading a 24 year-old guy for a 34 year-old guy." - Michael questioning the Oakley trade

"He's causing me too many turnovers." - Michael on Cartwright's inability to catch

"Why the hell don't you ever set a pick like that in a game?" - Michael yelling at Perdue after also hitting Perdue upside his head (led to the institution of the private curtain for practices)

What I hate about this getting posted so much is that many of these quotes are taken out of context. These are from the Jordan Rules, and if you read it, you'll see that his teammates are going at him just as hard.

[MacGill]

I just want to take a moment to thank DRZA for his incredible posts throughout this project, especially on KG. My opinion, it just makes sense as you read the information provided. Now this is only my opinion but RAPM, while not perfect, certainly does a good job of recognizing both the offensive and defensive stars per year. And while there is always a variance or discrepancy, top to bottom, for the information that we do have the results on from the first #11 and who has been talked about, I don't really see how we shouldn't put some stock here? I mean, does the data tell us that LBJ is one of the worst offense players in the league? That TD was horrible defensively? Shaq? among others...?

I mean, how many players has the league actually seen with the skill set of a KG? A 7' footer but not a true 5? A very good offensive player but not elite? The more I think about this the more I realize that KG's results were exactly of him providing defense and offense daily per game. And not just the, I'll guard you in spurts with 2 minutes to go in the 4th quarter or we have no one else to make the stop etc. To me, KG is what a player looks like when you have a balance that is given to you daily when you don't have another AS or ATG to help shoulder the load. And when that happened, you see that he could defer from his offense to more defense, which too many is just plain backwards....right? .

When I ask those to share how someone other than a true center impacts the defense....I usually don't get a true indicative response. We seem to group like players together and share common themes as to why it made so and so good, so it made him good as well. I don't believe we have seen another player like KG and well, posters don't really know what to do here? At first, it's well he isn't anchoring teams all-time defenses like traditional bigs so his impact must be overblown, or he isn't scoring like previous 'best players' so I guess he is just in the middle. What I interpret is that we witnessed a player lanky enough to bring it game in and game out. We have all seen games where the offensive star takes many a play off to conserve his energy to score, but with KG, I really do believe that he was the first player to show you what the results would look like when this doesn't happen.

When you really review the information provided, you really see how great of a player he was. And the hard part is to separate the normal (accolades, team success) that we are so used to seeing follow with a great player, except, we really don't have a traditional archive of what a player of KG's abilities actually do. So as an individual...the dude flat out balls.

[tsherkin]

I will substantiate my vote when Incan sit down at a PC instead of my phone. Long days, sorry folks.

[ardee]

I think I'm just going to stay out of the rest of the discussion until Garnett gets voted in, since the conversation is frustrating me more and more and I'm liable to say something stupid.

This feels really unfair to the "KG" guys here. I too have been skeptical about much of the hyperbolic content about KG:

"he's better offensively than Dirk. Dirk's merely a better scorer"
"KG has markedly better longevity than Mailman"
"KG is the most portable superstar ever"
"KG's old man seasons are better than any of of Kobe's"
"KG is better than David Robinson despite a ton of statistical evidence suggesting otherwise based on "style"

And so on. BUT with the exception of one poster with a clear agenda, all the guys supporting KG in the threads have been very cordial and respectful in how they relate to those of us not quite on the bandwagon yet. I have a really hard time blaming them for the tenor of the conversation. A really hard time.

I get you are a Kobe guy. And I get RAPM doesnt paint Kobe in the glowing light as it does KG and that because the KG crowd and the RAPM crowd tend to be one and the same(for obvious reasons) it gets frustrating when so many of their counter arguments keep going back to an area where your guy doesnt shine. But instead of getting mad at them for having a different perspective speak to the rest of us who are open to a broader discussion.

Ok I guess I won't be gone for long since it looks like Mr One Million Excuses is going to get in this thread itself

Sent from my GT-I9300 using RealGM Forums mobile app

[Purch]

If I was someone arguing for Kobe, my biggest issue wouldn't even be about Garnett, it would be about the willingness for everyone to completly disregard anything in Kobe's favor from: Quotes said by players and coaches, all nba teams, all defensive teams, true shooting percent, leading top 10 offenses with sub par supporting cast, playoff performances ext. It seems like everything great about Kobe has gotten marginalized in this disscusion

[Baller2014]

If I was someone arguing for Kobe, my biggest issue wouldn't even be about Garnett, it would be about the willingness for everyone to completly disregard anything in Kobe's favor from: Quotes said by players and coaches, all nba teams, all defensive teams, true shooting percent, leading top 10 offenses with sub par supporting cast, playoff performances ext. It seems like everything great about Kobe has gotten marginalized in this disscusion

Well, that plays both ways. A lot of people who are voting for other candidates feel (with some justice) that all our criticisms of Kobe have been completely ignored by his supporters. I've been asking for someone to address his well documented negative intangibles for 6 threads now, and not one poster has done it (except in one liner format, to dismiss it as irrelevant somehow).

I even asked, quite reasonably I think, what Kobe's case was over Karl Malone (given Malone has comparably good offensive impact once you factor in efficiency, way more impact on D, less negative intangibles, more longevity, comparable accolades, etc). I mean, just what is the pro-Kobe argument over Karl Malone? I haven't seen it addressed at all.

[tsherkin]

If I was someone arguing for Kobe, my biggest issue wouldn't even be about Garnett, it would be about the willingness for everyone to completly disregard anything in Kobe's favor from: Quotes said by players and coaches, all nba teams, all defensive teams, true shooting percent, leading top 10 offenses with sub par supporting cast, playoff performances ext. It seems like everything great about Kobe has gotten marginalized in this disscusion

I find a lot of those comments come in the wake of losses, or with obvious hyperbole. Sometimes, they're obviously following old narratives or blindly ignoring things about his game. His All-D teams are a bit ofna running joke now, but he does get treated as if he has 't beenthe best post-Jordan, pre-07 perimeter scorer in the game. Calling him inefficient is inaccurate, he's actually been the MOST efficient volume scorer until Wade, LBJ and KD got going. He was never Jordan esque, br he was great and more frustrating game to game than overall.

Some of the backlash comes from hyperbolic overrating of what he has done, and of course the negatives like his rape trial, relationship with Shaq, attitude while younger etc.

[SactoKingsFan]

My runoff vote goes to Kevin Garnett.

I think his superior peak, defensive versatility, portability and two-way impact are enough to give him the overall edge over Kobe.

[SactoKingsFan]

On a completely unrelated note, let me add that a little part of me dies every time someone brings up Adrian Dantley, my childhood hero and the reason I first became passionate about basketball, as a pariah of misleading value.

I have Dantley towards the end of my top 50. Might have been the only top 50 pre-list that included him.

The real "pariah of misleading value" is probably Iverson.

[colts18]

Interesting stat:

[FJS]

Maybe I'm living in another reality or something like that... but I can't believe how KG it's getting so much love.

Everybody is talking how great was in deffense... but his impact it's not translated to great defensive teams, except Boston 08, who had Tony Allen, PJ Brown, a better version of Perkins or James Posey. And Still they went to 7 vs Hawks and Cavs.

Wolves were mediocre defensive team. He is the weakest franchise guy mentioned. Not able to step up in scoring. Being his deffense fantastic... who cares if it doesn't translate into to improve your team.

Do you think that KG in Jazz team in 97 and 98, or in 93 Suns would have done better than Karl or Chuck? In 2011 Mavericks better than Dirk?

Do you really think Spurs in 99, 03, 05 would have done better with him?

Jazz or Spurs were really good in defense for those years.. no doubt. And Suns weren't, but still I don't watch him being a difference.

KG is overrated, pretty overrated. He is a better version of Pippen, a much better version of AK. But Still he is not a top 11 player ever in the NBA.
His impact in the game, and in the history of the game it's not greater than Kobe, Dr J, Malone, Dirk or Barkley.