2021-22 RealGM All-Season Awards - Discussion Thread

[TheGOATRises007]

I do believe there is an overarching point that should be kept in mind, though. So Curry gets injured in the first round and then comes back against the Blazers. He averages 35/7/10 on 63% TS in two games. He then went on to play seven games versus the Thunder in which he posted 28/6/6 on 61% TS. Now imagine the Thunder win in 7 with all else being equal. Would anyone still say that Curry ‘simply regressed a lot’? Probably not. And that's actually 9 games to Jokic' 5.

My point is not to argue that Curry hasn't had a subpar PS all rounds considered, or to talk about how much of it was just poor play or lingering issues with injury. That has been talked about ad nauseam. The point is that perhaps the reason Jokic has not regressed is because he only had to play one series and happened to play well in it. Nobody can prove or disprove this sentiment.

Is it fair to simply assume that he would have performed worse over an extended run? Of course not! But it's also not fair to just assume that he wouldn't, especially when we compare him to a player who has been seen as underperforming in those playoffs only because his team won their series and the last one happened to be his worst.

Those are somewhat fair points, but we can do that exercise for every player in NBA history who had a poor series that brought down their overall playoff numbers.

We can't just ignore his finals.

He had a negative on-off in the playoffs after boasting a +23 on-off in the RS. His TS% dropped by 6% overall.

I don't like arguing in hypotheticals, because why stop with Curry in 2016 then? We can only judge Jokic on what he did. And he didn't regress in the playoffs relative to his RS. Curry did.

Well to be fair, Jokic was far worse than his regular season in 2/5 games

Yeah, but now we're cherry-picking.

I like looking at the totality of the series and he was basically his RS self.

[eminence]

Those are somewhat fair points, but we can do that exercise for every player in NBA history who had a poor series that brought down their overall playoff numbers.

We can't just ignore his finals.

He had a negative on-off in the playoffs after boasting a +23 on-off in the RS. His TS% dropped by 6% overall.

I don't like arguing in hypotheticals, because why stop with Curry in 2016 then? We can only judge Jokic on what he did. And he didn't regress in the playoffs relative to his RS. Curry did.

Well to be fair, Jokic was far worse than his regular season in 2/5 games

Yeah, but now we're cherry-picking.

I like looking at the totality of the series and he was basically his RS self.

*On offense

Jokic was pretty rough on D in the playoffs, which he was not in the RS.

[Peregrine01]

Well to be fair, Jokic was far worse than his regular season in 2/5 games

Yeah, but now we're cherry-picking.

I like looking at the totality of the series and he was basically his RS self.

*On offense

Jokic was pretty rough on D in the playoffs, which he was not in the RS.

I have a tough time being too critical about Jokic’s defense against the Warriors. The load he had to carry was enormous.

We saw Timelord pretty helpless against Curry despite carrying no where near the offensive load and have way better defenders around him. And he had to exert himself so much that he was only able to play 20 minutes a game before gassing out.

[eminence]

Yeah, but now we're cherry-picking.

I like looking at the totality of the series and he was basically his RS self.

*On offense

Jokic was pretty rough on D in the playoffs, which he was not in the RS.

I have a tough time being too critical about Jokic’s defense against the Warriors. The load he had to carry was enormous.

We saw Timelord pretty helpless against Curry despite carrying no where near the offensive load and have way better defenders around him. And he had to exert himself so much that he was only able to play 20 minutes a game before gassing out.

Carried the same load in the RS but wasn't bad on defense. It's okay to just say he wasn't as good, he was still good, it's not a crime, it happens to every player sometimes.

Williams played more mpg against the Warriors than against anyone else, he always wears down.

[Narigo]

Winning bias is one hell of a drug.

I think Curry is top 5 but I feel like he's clearly below Jokic Giannis, and Embiid. Those guys had much better regular seasons than Curry did. I think he right there with Tatum and Donicic if we just used the regular season but postseason wise I'll take him over both

Curry while great in the first month in the regular season, where he was the favorite to win MVP had a shooting slump right there after, fell off the MVP conversation completely had one of the worst shooting seasons of his prime. I just don't think he done enough to put him number 1 or even top 3 if we're considering the season as a whole

[Peregrine01]

*On offense

Jokic was pretty rough on D in the playoffs, which he was not in the RS.

I have a tough time being too critical about Jokic’s defense against the Warriors. The load he had to carry was enormous.

We saw Timelord pretty helpless against Curry despite carrying no where near the offensive load and have way better defenders around him. And he had to exert himself so much that he was only able to play 20 minutes a game before gassing out.

Carried the same load in the RS but wasn't bad on defense. It's okay to just say he wasn't as good, he was still good, it's not a crime, it happens to every player sometimes.

Williams played more mpg against the Warriors than against anyone else, he always wears down.

I thought what he did against the Warriors was more impressive than what he did in the RS…this was the second best defensive team in the league. The first 2 games were rough but he started figuring things out by game 3. The last 3 games of Den-GSW were pretty close and better than what the Celts managed in their last 3.

[TheGOATRises007]

Winning bias is one hell of a drug.

I think Curry is top 5 but I feel like he's clearly below Jokic Giannis, and Embiid. Those guys had much better regular seasons than Curry did. I think he right there with Tatum and Donicic if we just used the regular season but postseason wise I'll take him over both

Curry while great in the first month in the regular season, where he was the favorite to win MVP had a shooting slump right there after, fell off the MVP conversation completely had one of the worst shooting seasons of his prime. I just don't think he done enough to put him number 1 or even top 3 if we're considering the season as a whole

What about his superior on-off numbers in the RS compared to Giannis/Embiid?

And didn't you find Embiid's playoffs disappointing?

[MyUniBroDavis]

Yeah, but now we're cherry-picking.

I like looking at the totality of the series and he was basically his RS self.

*On offense

Jokic was pretty rough on D in the playoffs, which he was not in the RS.

I have a tough time being too critical about Jokic’s defense against the Warriors. The load he had to carry was enormous.

We saw Timelord pretty helpless against Curry despite carrying no where near the offensive load and have way better defenders around him. And he had to exert himself so much that he was only able to play 20 minutes a game before gassing out.

TimeLord was crazy lol wdym
Curry got him a few times off of drives and got him in drop coverage a few times (not his fault) but he was probably the best defender for the celtics

[The-Power]

I don't like arguing in hypotheticals, because why stop with Curry in 2016 then? We can only judge Jokic on what he did. And he didn't regress in the playoffs relative to his RS. Curry did.

We can only judge them by what they did, but we can use these contextual factors in our conclusion. To be honest, I'm always hesitant to judge players too much after single playoff series in the negative or positive direction. And in a comparison of Jokic 2022 and Curry 2016, the emphasis should primarily be on the RS because that is Jokic primary argument. Five playoff games in a first-round series is just too little to predict how he exactly would have fared in a long playoff run relative to his RS.

[The-Power]

I have a tough time being too critical about Jokic’s defense against the Warriors. The load he had to carry was enormous.

We saw Timelord pretty helpless against Curry despite carrying no where near the offensive load and have way better defenders around him. And he had to exert himself so much that he was only able to play 20 minutes a game before gassing out.

TimeLord was crazy lol wdym
Curry got him a few times off of drives and got him in drop coverage a few times (not his fault) but he was probably the best defender for the celtics

Yeah, if anything Horford struggled with the Warriors offense. Williams was superb despite not being able to defend all of Curry's actions which... well, who can?

[70sFan]

*On offense

Jokic was pretty rough on D in the playoffs, which he was not in the RS.

I have a tough time being too critical about Jokic’s defense against the Warriors. The load he had to carry was enormous.

We saw Timelord pretty helpless against Curry despite carrying no where near the offensive load and have way better defenders around him. And he had to exert himself so much that he was only able to play 20 minutes a game before gassing out.

TimeLord was crazy lol wdym
Curry got him a few times off of drives and got him in drop coverage a few times (not his fault) but he was probably the best defender for the celtics

Yeah, I don't get it either. In limited minutes he played, Williams was probably Celtics best player. He was certainly the most impactful on defense.

[TheGOATRises007]

I don't like arguing in hypotheticals, because why stop with Curry in 2016 then? We can only judge Jokic on what he did. And he didn't regress in the playoffs relative to his RS. Curry did.

We can only judge them by what they did, but we can use these contextual factors in our conclusion. To be honest, I'm always hesitant to judge players too much after single playoff series in the negative or positive direction. And in a comparison of Jokic 2022 and Curry 2016, the emphasis should primarily be on the RS because that is Jokic primary argument. Five playoff games in a first-round series is just too little to predict how he exactly would have fared in a long playoff run relative to his RS.

For what it's worth, I'd take 2016 Curry's RS over Jokic's in 2022.

It's arguably the best RS ever for me personally.

But I see no reason to presume Jokic could have regressed to a similar level that Curry then did in the playoffs even with a longer playoff run. He's one of the best playoff performers of all time and his metrics/numbers are always either maintained or elevated in the playoffs.

That's also true of Curry generally except for 2016. It's an outlier in this case.

The evidence is simply against Jokic regressing to that extent.

[weekend_warrior]

Sorry, I really struggle with the concept of calling someone "one of the best PO performers of all time" he has played a total of 48 games, reached the conference finals once and lost their convincingly while not playing all that great. And that's not to take anything away from Jokic, I'm a big fan of his play.

But you have to heavily rely on the data from first and second round match-ups and extrapolate that to an extent that rarely proves to be realistic when considering the higher level of competition in later stages.

Just look at the circumstances of the POs from Jokic 2022 and Curry 2016 in detail and I believe it's obvious that it's really make little sense to draw comparisons based on those numbers.

2022 Jokic played great offensively, struggled quite a bit defensively and lost quite convincingly in 5 games to a team that, while they didn't have the size to stop Jokic anyway, focused on letting him go to work, limiting his playmaking impact and stopping his supporting cast. This match-up was imho favorable for Jokic offensively and problematic defensively. And it played out exactly that way.

2016 Curry missed large parts of the first 2 rounds with injury against very favorable match-ups (neither Houston nor Portland had anything to stop him really), then came back to play 2 full 7-game series against 2 absolutely stacked teams in OKC and the Cavs with Lebron. They didn't have enough in the tank and ultimately just didn't play well enough anymore to prevail. But at that point it's just an entirely different situation, level of competition and willingness required to to the little things.

[MyUniBroDavis]

Sorry, I really struggle with the concept of calling someone "one of the best PO performers of all time" he has played a total of 48 games, reached the conference finals once and lost their convincingly while not playing all that great. And that's not to take anything away from Jokic, I'm a big fan of his play.

But you have to heavily rely on the data from first and second round match-ups and extrapolate that to an extent that rarely proves to be realistic when considering the higher level of competition in later stages.

Just look at the circumstances of the POs from Jokic 2022 and Curry 2016 in detail and I believe it's obvious that it's really make little sense to draw comparisons based on those numbers.

2022 Jokic played great offensively, struggled quite a bit defensively and lost quite convincingly in 5 games to a team that, while they didn't have the size to stop Jokic anyway, focused on letting him go to work, limiting his playmaking impact and stopping his supporting cast. This match-up was imho favorable for Jokic offensively and problematic defensively. And it played out exactly that way.

2016 Curry missed large parts of the first 2 rounds with injury against very favorable match-ups (neither Houston nor Portland had anything to stop him really), then came back to play 2 full 7-game series against 2 absolutely stacked teams in OKC and the Cavs with Lebron. They didn't have enough in the tank and ultimately just didn't play well enough anymore to prevail. But at that point it's just an entirely different situation, level of competition and willingness required to to the little things.

phrased this really well lol

[MyUniBroDavis]

I have a tough time being too critical about Jokic’s defense against the Warriors. The load he had to carry was enormous.

We saw Timelord pretty helpless against Curry despite carrying no where near the offensive load and have way better defenders around him. And he had to exert himself so much that he was only able to play 20 minutes a game before gassing out.

TimeLord was crazy lol wdym
Curry got him a few times off of drives and got him in drop coverage a few times (not his fault) but he was probably the best defender for the celtics

Yeah, if anything Horford struggled with the Warriors offense. Williams was superb despite not being able to defend all of Curry's actions which... well, who can?

its also like, i mean he executed the gameplan it was just a bit odd that let curry shoot was a gameplan lol, they got pretty lucky everyone else was missing pretty decent shots even if it was to stop their passing

[MyUniBroDavis]

when I think of POY i dont think of whose the best player necessarily, or else alot of years probably you could pick someone else.
If someone goes deep in the playoffs i get it, if its like 2009 or Lebron clawing his team to the finals those years, but like, Jokic is probablly the best player in the world, him or Giannis, and is probably one of the 8 best offensive players ever in terms of level of play, but its hard for me to give it to Jokic considering hes out in the first round, and Curry accomplished what he did and finally got that FMVP
For the record, everyone knows how much I love bron but I wouldnt have given it to him in 2010 either even though I think his RS was better than 09 lol

[The-Power]

For what it's worth, I'd take 2016 Curry's RS over Jokic's in 2022.

It's arguably the best RS ever for me personally.

But I see no reason to presume Jokic could have regressed to a similar level that Curry then did in the playoffs even with a longer playoff run. He's one of the best playoff performers of all time and his metrics/numbers are always either maintained or elevated in the playoffs.

That's also true of Curry generally except for 2016. It's an outlier in this case.

The evidence is simply against Jokic regressing to that extent.

I understand that but you were clear on looking only at what happened, yet you are fully willing to give Jokic the benefit of the doubt for being able to do something he didn't have to do (perform late into the playoffs and in the Finals) for the season in question.

I'm not saying you are wrong in having faith in him, but I'm saying that when we compare long playoff runs to short playoff runs, we should always be very careful with our projections and keep in mind that one playoff series just isn't enough to reach a confident conclusion about long playoff runs.

But if this is how you rate Jokic, let me directly ask you the question I alluded to before: had the Warriors lost to the Thunder in 7 with all else being equal – would you rank Curry's 2016 season much higher? Because after he came back from injury, he sure looked like MVP Curry in those 9 games.

Lastly, I will point out that Jokic only had three playoff runs in which he played more than one series, and in two of those his last series saw regression in the boxscore. In 2020, he struggled to stay on the floor and could not be the leading scorer for his team. In 2021, the series against the Suns was much more of a struggle for him than the series against Portland, and his scoring efficiency cratered to levels well below Curry's 2016 Finals with only 53% TS.

So the argument that Jokic is essentially certain to not get worn down or run into bad match-ups during a long playoff run is something I don't buy. It may be your assessment and that's fine – even though the aforementioned series should raise some doubts at least – but let's not pretend as if any of know whether such a Finals series was realistic or not for Jokic this year. We just don't know.

edit:

But you have to heavily rely on the data from first and second round match-ups and extrapolate that to an extent that rarely proves to be realistic when considering the higher level of competition in later stages.

I think it's important to reiterate this point. Playoffs tend to get tougher the further you advance. Teams are increasingly better, teams have better blueprints on how to stop you based on previous match-ups, and you are more worn down or banged up. A good one or two playoff series are absolutely no guarantee that you would be able to play at the highest level in later rounds.

[Peregrine01]

*On offense

Jokic was pretty rough on D in the playoffs, which he was not in the RS.

I have a tough time being too critical about Jokic’s defense against the Warriors. The load he had to carry was enormous.

We saw Timelord pretty helpless against Curry despite carrying no where near the offensive load and have way better defenders around him. And he had to exert himself so much that he was only able to play 20 minutes a game before gassing out.

TimeLord was crazy lol wdym
Curry got him a few times off of drives and got him in drop coverage a few times (not his fault) but he was probably the best defender for the celtics

He was excellent on defense but had to play with such intensity that he was only good for spurts. He was being hidden in Steph pick and rolls too.

Jokic had far worse defensive teammates and couldn’t afford to sit for more than 3 minutes at a time. I think it’s just unfair to penalize Jokic so much for Denver’s putrid defensive performance against the Warriors when:

1. No big can guard Curry
2. Nuggets had some of the worst perimeter defenders all season
3. The epic load he had to carry
4. Poole looking like a Curry-clone during a hot streak

[Jaivl]

Jokic clearly outplayed Curry on the regular season, then on the first round he faced a defense about as good as Boston's and he managed better offensive results (+4 points per 100) than GSW did vs Boston, with a much worse supporting cast, outplaying Curry H2H in the process.

He didn't prove himself? How? Literally faced the toughest competition avaliable in the first round. Is there such a massive gulf defensively between the two? Really, is there?

Meanwhile, 2016 Curry is injured for basically the entirety of the first two rounds (cause he happened to have a good enough team that it didn't matter) and he gets a pass. Of course he does. It reeks of mental gymnastics to cover personal preferences. Nothing more, nothing less.

[dontcalltimeout]

Now that the season's over, here's the final tally from Ben Taylor's AuPM.

Top 15 players of the playoffs by AuPM / AuPM Per Game

1. Giannis Antetokounmpo - 6.5 / 5.1
2. Stephen Curry - 5.9 / 4.3
3. Nikola Jokic - 5.9 / 4.2
4. Jimmy Butler - 5.7 / 4.4
5. Jayson Tatum - 5.3 / 4.5
6. Desmond Bane - 5.3 / 3.9
7. Al Horford - 4.6 / 3.4
8. Chris Paul - 4.6 / 3.3
9. Luka Doncic - 4.2 / 3.2
10. Joel Embiid - 4.1 / 3.3
11. Bam Adebayo - 4.0 / 2.9
12. Robert Williams - 4.0 / 1.9
13. Mikal Bridges - 3.8 / 3.0
14. Rudy Gobert - 3.8 / 2.6
15. Draymond Green - 3.8 / 2.5