2022-23 NBA Season Discussion

[70sFan]

Just a small observation - anyone else came out impressed with Love on defensive end? I don't think I have ever seen him playing so well on that end in years. Love had a very solid series in general, he and Lowry truly showed they can still contribute in contending teams.

[Heej]

Honestly the only guys I think that inarguably had higher PEAKS is Kareem Jordan LeBron Shaq

Then he's in an arguable tier with guys like Hakeem Timmy Wilt Russell

And he's clearly better than Bird Magic Kobe Steph KD West Big O were at their peaks imo

This is special. His defense is so good lol

[rk2023]

Just a small observation - anyone else came out impressed with Love on defensive end? I don't think I have ever seen him playing so well on that end in years. Love had a very solid series in general, he and Lowry truly showed they can still contribute in contending teams.

Fully in agreement here, and I loved what I saw (no pun intended). His rotations, positioning, and anticipation were great. Although the Heat were overmatched, I was left quite impressed with their process on defense.

[70sFan]

Honestly the only guys I think that inarguably had higher PEAKS is Kareem Jordan LeBron Shaq

Then he's in an arguable tier with guys like Hakeem Timmy Wilt Russell

And he's clearly better than Bird Magic Kobe Steph KD West Big O were at their peaks imo

This is special. His defense is so good lol

I don't know how you can have Shaq ahead of the rest bigs here to be honest. In fact, Shaq is the one who is the easiest to argue against in Jokic comparison in my opinion.

[Heej]

Honestly the only guys I think that inarguably had higher PEAKS is Kareem Jordan LeBron Shaq

Then he's in an arguable tier with guys like Hakeem Timmy Wilt Russell

And he's clearly better than Bird Magic Kobe Steph KD West Big O were at their peaks imo

This is special. His defense is so good lol

I don't know how you can have Shaq ahead of the rest bigs here to be honest. In fact, Shaq is the one who is the easiest to argue against in Jokic comparison in my opinion.

Peak only? Are you out of your mind?

[Heej]

Interesting thread on GB about Jokic proving Mikan can ball in any era

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2297325

Stylistically Mikan wasn't the passer Jokic was but I'm surprised at the number of posters in there who I considered knowledgeable talking down on Mikan. I never really saw him play in my life until I watched that scouting video that was posted and HOLY S*** that guy was basically the size of Dwight Howard and moved like Jerry West.

Absolutely insane to me that people think he wouldn't be a certified baller in any era after watching those clips. That dude moved like a legit guard. I'm still shellshocked from what I saw lol. Respect Mikan man damn, he's a top 20 all time lock for me now til the end of time honestly. There's not 5 guys in NBA history his size that moved that fluidly. Pretty sick

Makes sense why he was so absurdly dominant. Dude was a bonafide all time ball out in any era great playing vs plumbers.

[70sFan]

Honestly the only guys I think that inarguably had higher PEAKS is Kareem Jordan LeBron Shaq

Then he's in an arguable tier with guys like Hakeem Timmy Wilt Russell

And he's clearly better than Bird Magic Kobe Steph KD West Big O were at their peaks imo

This is special. His defense is so good lol

I don't know how you can have Shaq ahead of the rest bigs here to be honest. In fact, Shaq is the one who is the easiest to argue against in Jokic comparison in my opinion.

Peak only? Are you out of your mind?

Why?

[eminence]

I'm a big Mikan fan, but I'm not sold on Jokic as a player comp.

[Heej]

I don't know how you can have Shaq ahead of the rest bigs here to be honest. In fact, Shaq is the one who is the easiest to argue against in Jokic comparison in my opinion.

Peak only? Are you out of your mind?

Why?

Because it's not at all out of the question to have Shaq ahead of those bigs as far as peak goes lol. I understand career but if you can't understand why I would have Shaq rated that highly for peak then I question your bias tbh

[Heej]

I'm a big Mikan fan, but I'm not sold on Jokic as a player comp.

I see him as 1950s DeMarcus Cousins without the mental problems that maximized his potential

DMC was a best big in the league contender and a hall of fame level talent who never got his head on straight. It completely makes sense after watching the why Mikan was so absurdly dominant. He was basically the first big that moved like a guard and dominated plumbers

[70sFan]

Peak only? Are you out of your mind?

Why?

Because it's not at all out of the question to have Shaq ahead of those bigs as far as peak goes lol. I understand career but if you can't understand why I would have Shaq rated that highly for peak then I question your bias tbh

I just don't think it's conclusive that Shaq peaked higher than Russell/Wilt/Hakeem/Duncan at all. I also mention this because Shaq is clearly the weakest defender among mentioned bigs and he's not better offensively than Jokic (unless you want to make the case). I am just interested in your thought process, you don't neeed to call me biased at the start...

[parsnips33]

Really really hope we can see Warriors vs Denver next year

Bob Myers replacement needs to do his job

[OhayoKD]

Why?

Because it's not at all out of the question to have Shaq ahead of those bigs as far as peak goes lol. I understand career but if you can't understand why I would have Shaq rated that highly for peak then I question your bias tbh

I just don't think it's conclusive that Shaq peaked higher than Russell/Wilt/Hakeem/Duncan at all. I also mention this because Shaq is clearly the weakest defender among mentioned bigs and he's not better offensively than Jokic (unless you want to make the case). I am just interested in your thought process, you don't neeed to call me biased at the start...

You said "you can't see how" shaq could be "ahead" of the other bigs, not "definitively ahead".

Granted Shaq doesn't really have an empirical case for it(2-bigs from the 2000's have one or multiple better looking years via "winning" regardless of approach, and a bunch of players look better via 1-year box), but it's not like non-existent statistical support stopped you from putting Kareem at #1 or Jordan as an arguable #2.

[Heej]

Why?

Because it's not at all out of the question to have Shaq ahead of those bigs as far as peak goes lol. I understand career but if you can't understand why I would have Shaq rated that highly for peak then I question your bias tbh

I just don't think it's conclusive that Shaq peaked higher than Russell/Wilt/Hakeem/Duncan at all. I also mention this because Shaq is clearly the weakest defender among mentioned bigs and he's not better offensively than Jokic (unless you want to make the case). I am just interested in your thought process, you don't neeed to call me biased at the start...

Not necessarily but he's still the best choice out of that tier to be on the Mt Rushmore of peaks imo. I was discussing this with Ohayo but I think the environment was just an outlier as far as properly rating Shaq's defensive ability.

He purposely put on weight because teams were signing big fat guys to hurt him lol. You can't waste minutes in a playoff rotation nowadays with guys like that and Shaq naturally would be forced to play at an Embiid level body type instead of a super sized Al Horford body type.

In most eras where Shaq isn't just forced to put on an unseemly amount of weight to handle physical abuse his defense would likely grade out much closer to the other guys.

As for why I have him higher I just think his IQ and motor along with his physical dominance puts him over the top. He didn't have weird disengaging moments like AD. And he had no qualms playing the way people said Dwight should his entire career, rolling into deep post position often. Motor matters and for his size I think Shaq was just constantly on it. Especially on the offensive glass.

Not to mention he was a very good functional pivot passer, which in my experience correlates highly with defensive IQ for bigs. His passing out of swarms is better than Hakeem and Wilt imo and he took better shots than them. I think people forget how much of a problem that was for Hakeem outside of those years he really put it together when surrounded by 4 shooters in an era where doubles were much easier to diagnose because of how much further away they had to rotate over from.

People thought Jokic was bad on D up until this year but we saw how well his skills stood out (hands, anticipation, defensive rebounding) once he got in shape. Shaq could easily survive as a deep drop guy and had the footspeed to come out a bit higher than Jokic can. I'd imagine his defensive impact is naturally better than what we saw from that era simply because it was such a weird outlier era for how teams played him and forced him to adapt

[Heej]

Because it's not at all out of the question to have Shaq ahead of those bigs as far as peak goes lol. I understand career but if you can't understand why I would have Shaq rated that highly for peak then I question your bias tbh

I just don't think it's conclusive that Shaq peaked higher than Russell/Wilt/Hakeem/Duncan at all. I also mention this because Shaq is clearly the weakest defender among mentioned bigs and he's not better offensively than Jokic (unless you want to make the case). I am just interested in your thought process, you don't neeed to call me biased at the start...

You said "you can't see how" shaq could be "ahead" of the other bigs, not "definitively ahead".

Granted Shaq doesn't really have an empirical case for it(2-bigs from the 2000's have one or multiple better looking years via "winning" regardless of approach, and a bunch of players look better via 1-year box), but it's not like non-existent statistical support stopped you from putting Kareem at #1 or Jordan as an arguable #2.

Thank you. I took umbrage with his phrasing, not the idea that the others had arguments. He made it seem like SHAQ was the one with no argument. That's crazy talk if you can't see why I would choose him.

Also, just to clarify I put them in chronological order to avoid controversy but it just so happens Shaq was my lowest rated Mt Rushmore peak. After reading your compelling arguments for 72 and 77 Kareem > 91 MJ this is probably my full peak list in order for now for what I consider the the top 3 tiers

Mt Rushmore (all play eachother to a standstill in series')
LeBron (probably 17 LeBron for me)
Kareem (77)
MJ (91)
Shaq (01?)

Tier 2 (can outplay tier 1 players nearly half the time)
Russell (57?)
Jokic (23)
Hakeem (94?)
Timmy (02)
Wilt (67)

Tier 3 (outplays tier 1 maybe a third of the time, and near even with tier 2)
Bird (86)
Magic (87)
Curry (17...lol f*** KD for ruining peak Bron vs peak Steph)
Kobe (08?)

After that you're in West Big O KD KG Dirk tiering imo

And now I think Mikan is a lock for top 20. If him and KD were born in the same exact era I think they go head to head for chips with KD winning like 60% of em imo

[eminence]

I'm not certain on which year I'd pick for peak Russell, but I'm certain it's not '57.

[OhayoKD]

I just don't think it's conclusive that Shaq peaked higher than Russell/Wilt/Hakeem/Duncan at all. I also mention this because Shaq is clearly the weakest defender among mentioned bigs and he's not better offensively than Jokic (unless you want to make the case). I am just interested in your thought process, you don't neeed to call me biased at the start...

You said "you can't see how" shaq could be "ahead" of the other bigs, not "definitively ahead".

Granted Shaq doesn't really have an empirical case for it(2-bigs from the 2000's have one or multiple better looking years via "winning" regardless of approach, and a bunch of players look better via 1-year box), but it's not like non-existent statistical support stopped you from putting Kareem at #1 or Jordan as an arguable #2.

Thank you. I took umbrage with his phrasing, not the idea that the others had arguments. He made it seem like SHAQ was the one with no argument. That's crazy talk if you can't see why I would choose him.

Also, just to clarify I put them in chronological order to avoid controversy but it just so happens Shaq was my lowest rated Mt Rushmore peak. After reading your compelling arguments for 72 and 77 Kareem > 91 MJ this is probably my full peak list in order for now for what I consider the the top 3 tiers

Mt Rushmore (all play eachother to a standstill in series')
LeBron (probably 17 LeBron for me)
Kareem (77)
MJ (91)
Shaq (01?)

Tier 2 (can outplay tier 1 players nearly half the time)
Russell (57?)
Jokic (23)
Hakeem (94?)
Timmy (02)
Wilt (67)

Tier 3 (outplays tier 1 maybe a third of the time, and near even with tier 2)
Bird (86)
Magic (87)
Curry (17...lol f*** KD for ruining peak Bron vs peak Steph)
Kobe (08?)

After that you're in West Big O KD KG Dirk tiering imo

And now I think Mikan is a lock for top 20. If him and KD were born in the same exact era I think they go head to head for chips with KD winning like 60% of em imo

Russell at tier 2 still annoys me, but, unlike with several alleged era-relativists, it actually consistent with your approach/reasoning so I don't really have a gripe there.

I would have expected you to have Giannis, Curry and KG so low given your "skillset x motor x iq" approach. And by that same token, Dirk and Bird seem too high?

I think Hakeem and Duncan were arguable equals or betters of jordan/shaq in their respective leagues but I don't have a strong opinion on whose skillset translates better. Statistically speaking Magic has a case(he is probably the "impact king" of the 80s/90s) but I see him as exploitable defensively in today's league. That said, I am comfortable backing Magic and Jokic as outright better offensive players than either both due to their iq and passing chops, so it comes down to defensive translation making up the gap I think.

KD being on the same or higher lvl than Giannis/KG also feels off and I'd be curious why you're higher on him than I am

[Doctor MJ]

I'm not certain on which year I'd pick for peak Russell, but I'm certain it's not '57.

I'd say '64 or '65.

[Lou Fan]

Since Jordan retired the West is now 17-8 in NBA finals. With Wemby entering the West and Jokic the clear best player in the world West supremacy may continue on. It seemed like finally in the last few years the conferences began to balance out but with Brooklyn imploding and their stars going West and now Philly likely imploding and losing a star to the West it seems like the East next year will likely be a two team conference with Boston and Milwaukee unless Mobley makes a leap or somehow the Heat are good again. Even Boston might be imploding who knows after the way the year ended. Do you guys think continued West dominance is a product of random chance or organizational superiority?

[70sFan]

You said "you can't see how" shaq could be "ahead" of the other bigs, not "definitively ahead".

Yeah, that was wrong from my part because I definitely meant the latter. I don't think we have much evidence suggesting that Shaq was on different tier than the rest of top bigs, it doesn't mean you can't have him at the top.

Granted Shaq doesn't really have an empirical case for it(2-bigs from the 2000's have one or multiple better looking years via "winning" regardless of approach, and a bunch of players look better via 1-year box), but it's not like non-existent statistical support stopped you from putting Kareem at #1 or Jordan as an arguable #2.

I see a lot of passive agression from you recently. Did I do anything that offended you or what?